Dust collection strategies with a wet/dry vac

[Jim Mims]

I am ready, willing and able to pull the trigger on a HF 2hp dust collector with 4" pipe, but I don't think I'm ready for it.
I'd like to give my Craftsman shop vac with a Hepa .3 micron replacement filter a try first and garner some experience. I also just don't think I have enough tools in my garage yet.
And, I roll everything against the walls to park the cars at night, so it's all mobile anyway.
Here's what I've got and what I'd like to know:

I made a cardboard template for the back of my old Craftsman table saw and taped a trash bag under it. Wow!. Very little dust on the floor, I was impressed. Now I need to get a plastic table saw dust hood with 4" hose connector to cover the bottom and make a two-piece removable back plate, probably out of some thin plexiglass I have laying around. I do need to figure out how best to get from the 4" connector to the shop vac's 2-1/2" hose. Or maybe not, read on.

For my Makita 5007, I just ordered a base, zci and dust port kit from EurekaZone, I'll use that with some 1-1/4" shop vac hose, I think.

For my Dewalt 12" CMS, I need to see what kind of connector I have on the back. Right now I'm using the cloth bag that came with it. It's probably going to similar to the Bosch dust port on the Makita, meaning I'll be able to use the same hose. This is my only tool permanently positioned on a workbench.

For my PC 343 orbital sander I can probably use the same hose.

I bought two PC routers, I love using the 690. Is there an easy way to collect dust from it?
My 8529 plunge router has a dust port built in, but I haven't used it yet and don't know what adapters I'll need. I'd like to eventually set it up in a router table.

In one review on Amazon of the Jet JW1049 2-Stage Dust Collection Hood (the kind you use with your own metal garbage can), the reviewer said he used it attached to his Craftsman vac using a 2-1/2" to 4" adapter along with a 4" Y fitting and gates.

So, I'm thinking about doing pretty much the same thing, using one 4" connection for my TS and the other, with adapters down to whatever it takes for the other shop tools.
Or, I could go ahead and use the second 4" port attached to a run of 4" pvc pipe along the wall with 2 or 3 drops to "plug" tools in, with the Dewalt being the only permanently connected tool on that run. As things are now, even if I left the vac in the corner, I'd never be more than about 15 feet from it.

Any comments, suggestions?
Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Becker]

The shop vac is actually the right tool for the powered hand tools that have small dust ports, even if you have a larger DC system. Vacs are designed for high-pressure, low airflow situations...which is what you have with small 1-2.5" ports. The DC is the right machine for the larger tools that have 4" or greater dust connections. You cannot get enough air flow with a shop vac to even begin to evacuate enough of the dust from them.

As to the miter saw...dust collection is going to be tough with that tool no matter what you use. Even with a larger cyclonic super duper dust collection system, getting a hood to work really well with a CMS/SCMS is a frustrating operation!

[John Newell]

So far, my strategy has been pretty much the same as yours, and it works pretty well. My main tools, all of which are portable so I can take them upstairs from the basement to use outside, are a benchtop planer, benchtop jointer, benchtop router table and a new Bosch 4100 tablesaw. I also sometimes hook up the vac to the ROS. The drill press and scrollsaw stay inside but are a little more manageable. I've been using a HEPA filter with my Sears vac and the results are pretty good.

I have been thinking hard about dust evacuation from inside, though. My current thought is to modify a 1.5 or 2 hp DC to direct exhaust. I'm thinking DC rather than cyclone because I could set up a couple of exhausts and move the DC to the machine and really reduce the duct run. It's an ongoing project...

[Charlie Barnes]

Jim,

I used a shop vac hooked to my table saw for several years before pulling the trigger on a 1200 CFM dust collector. I modified my table saw by purchasing a cover for the bottom with a 4" collection port on it and building an overarm guard that also had dust collection built in. What a difference. My only regret is that I didn't do it years sooner. As Jim mentioned, dust collection from a larger tool (saw, etc.) is all about CFM. I experimented with closing off the back of my saw vs. leaving it open. More air flow with the back open, but the blade/belt tended to throw dust out the back. I compromised by covering the back with a piece of cardboard attached with velcro and leaving the front opening uncovered.

Again as Jim mentioned, I use the shop vac for all my small portable tools.

Best of luck.

[Jim Mims]

Well a picture is worth a thousand words.
There are some great ideas in the pics you posted Charlie, thanks.
What an ingenious idea to put the outfeed roller on a drawer slide, I like the pegboard too.
A few questions, if I may.
Did you buy some of the components for the blade guard, or did you make them all? I enjoy working with plexiglass and was admiring it especially.
A friend of mine has the same TS, mine's a much older 1988 model with a 1 hp motor. I told him it must be nice to have the extra power. The link belt did wonders for my saw too. Are you comfortable not using a splitter behind the blade?

I noticed the blast gates in the pvc pipe in the background, was it much trouble to insert them directly into the pvc line?

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Mims]

Thanks John, it's nice to have confirmation that a hepa filter will work.
And that it works for someone else too.

- Jim

[Jim Mims]

The shop vac is actually the right tool for the powered hand tools that have small dust ports, even if you have a larger DC system. Vacs are designed for high-pressure, low airflow situations...which is what you have with small 1-2.5" ports. The DC is the right machine for the larger tools that have 4" or greater dust connections. You cannot get enough air flow with a shop vac to even begin to evacuate enough of the dust from them.

As to the miter saw...dust collection is going to be tough with that tool no matter what you use. Even with a larger cyclonic super duper dust collection system, getting a hood to work really well with a CMS/SCMS is a frustrating operation!

Thanks Jim.
It sure helps to take the time to formulate a post and think about what you want to say, I have a better feel for what I want to do now. ;)
I see myself getting a DC in the future, along with a planer and jointer, all of which would still need to be rolled around in the garage, and using 4" duct, like Charlie showed in his pics.
So, for the present, it would just be my TS that would use 4", and it looks like the vac will work the TS for the time being, along with my hand power tools.
What I'm left struggling with is a type of trash can separator or cyclone, IOW, whether to:
use the small 2-1/2" type separator ($20 or so) on a 5-gal can,
or a 4" separator on a 20~30 gal can,
or go with something like a clearvue Mini CV06 cyclone, also on top of a can.
I like Phil Thien's design too and am thinking about trying that, it'd certainly be cheaper.

- Jim

[Prashun Patel]

I have the clearvue minicyclone. I paid full price for it, but occasionally it goes on sale for < $100. It's great.

If I had seen Phil Thien's design sooner, I would have tried that.

I've HEARD the regular t-can separators aren't as good bkz they don't funnel as well or encourage true cyclone movemt. Thien's design seems to compensate by using a baffle.

Only pblm with any mini-cyclone is making it portable. The clearvue mini makes a 5g bucket topheavy and therefore prone to tipping. You'll have to find a good balance btn making it portable and making it stable.

[Tom Hamilton]

Jim, you might consider adding a Dust Deputy from Oneida (or other maker) into your scheme.

79430

I've learned that the Dust Deputy feeding into the VAC'S Hepa filter works well. Filter cleaning is reduced to infrequently. I put mine DD and vac on an 18X30 moving dolly and locate it next to the work when needed. Otherwise it sits under the tablesaw outfeed.

This set-up will not meet strict dust collection standards by any means, but, it is better than a vac alone.

Best regards, Tom

[Gary McKown]

Jim said..."make a two-piece removable back plate, probably out of some thin plexiglass"

1/8" hardboard works well for this, with glued-on thin magnets to hold it in place. Mine is also two-piece, bottom with cutouts for motor mounts, top with notch for belt. Easy to remove when tilting the blade (don't forget!). I don't do enough bevel cuts to warrant a different plate for those cases, but I saw a design some years ago that used a rubber membrane over an arc-shaped cutout, allowing blade tilt but still keeping a decent seal on the back.

[Jim Mims]

Thanks Tom, once again a picture is worth a thousand words!
That's almost exactly want I want to do.
How are you handling dust collection from power hand tools?
Is it just a matter of using the 2-1/2" hose and down-sizing adapters for each tool?
Also, here's another source I'm considering for a small vac-sized cyclone:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cyclone-Separator-for-Shop-Vacuum_W0QQitemZ270202454114QQihZ017QQcategoryZ312 6QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or: http://tinyurl.com/233xoj

- Jim

[Jim Mims]

Thanks Shawn.
An option I'll consider is using Phil's design on a cart like Tom's, but with the can and cyclone on a shelf above the vac and maybe even putting half-height wooden "skirts" around the middle part of the cart, around the area of the vac motor, to help control some of the noise.
Hey, I could have fun with this!
- Jim

[Jim Mims]

Jim said..."make a two-piece removable back plate, probably out of some thin plexiglass"

1/8" hardboard works well for this, with glued-on thin magnets to hold it in place. Mine is also two-piece, bottom with cutouts for motor mounts, top with notch for belt. Easy to remove when tilting the blade (don't forget!). I don't do enough bevel cuts to warrant a different plate for those cases, but I saw a design some years ago that used a rubber membrane over an arc-shaped cutout, allowing blade tilt but still keeping a decent seal on the back.

Magnets are a good idea!
I was also thinking about a rubber membrane to cover the slot, or a length of short bristle brushes, like keep falling off my vac's floor nozzle.:o
Trouble is, I can't come up with a google search string to even begin trying to find a supplier. I mentioned this to a friend and he thought about using some sort of pliable foam product. I need to look at what weatherstriping products are available too.
- Jim

[Rod Sheridan]

One issue to remember is that you'll need an opening(S) with enough area to allow for proper air flow into you dust collection system.

If you block all the small openings, there won't be enough airflow to either capture the dust, or convey it through your dust collection system at suitable speed.

I've found that opening areas less than twice the area of the dust collection pipe restrict the airflow substantially.


Regards, Rod.

[Ray Meche]

I know this was mention earlier, but has anyone used a small separator like the one from Rockler on their shopvac?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=1515

Waste of time? Slight improvement?

[Jim Mims]

I know this was mention earlier, but has anyone used a small separator like the one from Rockler on their shopvac?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=1515

Waste of time? Slight improvement?

When I mentioned the reviews on Amazon for the Jet JW1049, that's the type of separator I was referring to.
But you're right, there are some that like them, and some that don't.
I consider Phil's design to be a nice marriage of performance and convenience, but there's more effort than just plopping down $30.
- Jim

[Charlie Barnes]

Well a picture is worth a thousand words.
There are some great ideas in the pics you posted Charlie, thanks.
What an ingenious idea to put the outfeed roller on a drawer slide, I like the pegboard too.
A few questions, if I may.
Did you buy some of the components for the blade guard, or did you make them all? I enjoy working with plexiglass and was admiring it especially.
A friend of mine has the same TS, mine's a much older 1988 model with a 1 hp motor. I told him it must be nice to have the extra power. The link belt did wonders for my saw too. Are you comfortable not using a splitter behind the blade?

I noticed the blast gates in the pvc pipe in the background, was it much trouble to insert them directly into the pvc line?

Thanks,
Jim
Jim,

Thanks for the compliment. To answer your questions in order:

1) I made all of the parts for the overarm collector except for the guard. I purchased it from Penn State: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/tsguard-dh.html

2) I was never 100% comfortable not using a splitter, but the factory one was very difficult to keep aligned and seemed to cause more problems than it solved. Having said that, I know I was probably on borrowed time and have since sold the saw and replaced it with a PM2000 which has a riving knife. I did look into installing an MJ splitter, but never got around to it.

3) The blast gates were not difficult to install at all. They are 4" diameter and have a tapered end which fits easily into the PVC lines. I sealed them with caulk and secured with very short screws so they don't protrude into the airflow more than 1/8" or so. I purchased them from Woodcraft as part of a kit which also included the collector/port under the table saw and some other miscellaneous parts.

Best of luck in making your decisions.

Charlie

[David Weaver]

I have used the type of lid shown from rockler there. It doesn't work for me.

I saw Phil's posts and loosely copied what he put up, but without a baffle or any of the goodies on it and just made a top out of plywood with an in and an out, and bought some cheap weatherstripping from the borg to seal the whole deal up.

One thing to remember if you get a trash can. If you have a good seal, the can needs to be able to handle the negative pressure that the system can create. My can caves in, and I'll need to make something quick and dirty to use as a skeletal support for the inside of the can - maybe just two small piece of ply (the can has flat sides) with something to hold them apart at the width of the can.

If they would've had the foresight to make those can topping things at rockler with a sort of "slide" down in that puts the material around the outside in a cyclone, and then put the other hole right in the middle sucking the air out, the whole apparatus would work much much better. I wonder if there was something keeping them from doing that in their design - like a patent. It only seems like common sense that you can't get material skimming around the outside of the can and then have the air output somewhere other than the middle.

Long story short, don't spend the $30 on the lid when you can make something better for cheaper.

I had the ply laying around (it's just cheap 3/4ths ply, but assume maybe that would be $10 worth. The two dust fixtures and a plumbing elbow that I used were another $10, and the weather stripping was $3. I don't fill the can like phil might, but I get results similar results while it's not more than half full. Phil's baffle makes the design much better if you want to run the can to full.

Oh, by the way, you might get away with the big garbage can lid working while the can is totally empty, but don't even think about using the one that's made for 5 gallon bucket size. I would guess my rigid SNR vac probably pulls between 1/2 and 2/3rs of the fines and large particles all the way to the vac. I don't mind the vac filling so much, but I don't like the filter plugging.

[Stan Welborn]

Another vote for the ClearVue mini or Dust Deputy. They work very well. I put mine on a rolling cart with a boom so I could swing the hose out overhead for CS, sander, router work, but building a low cart to mount both it and a vac on might be the way to go for you.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/10/cvmini1.jpg

[Jim Mims]

Another vote for the ClearVue mini or Dust Deputy. They work very well. I put mine on a rolling cart with a boom so I could swing the hose out overhead for CS, sander, router work, but building a low cart to mount both it and a vac on might be the way to go for you.


Now, that's just what I was thinking of doing. Then, put plywood from the bottom of the 5 gal. bucket shelf down about 2' on all four sides and I bet it would dampen some of the noise the vac makes too.

[Brent Ring]

I know this was mention earlier, but has anyone used a small separator like the one from Rockler on their shopvac?

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=1515

Waste of time? Slight improvement?

Ray,

I have one, and it works reasonably well with a large container below it. I cut a 2nd 5 gallon bucket and duct-taped them together. I only clean the hepa filter in the shop vac now after alot of sanding. I will be getting a Cyclone though, and if the right deal comes on a DC, that will happen too. But the shop vac does well for now.

[Doug Hobkirk]

Stan - Show us more! I would love to see/hear more details on how you mounted your boom, how big the base is, and what you would change if you were going to redo it.
Thanks

[Michael Merrill]

I see several references to"Phil's Design" in this thread, what is that? Maybe I missed it.

[Jim Mims]

I see several references to"Phil's Design" in this thread, what is that? Maybe I missed it.

The thread's titled "My new cyclone separator lid design" by Phil Thien
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69765

- Jim