PM66 vs General 650

[Zach Hanna]

I'm in the market for a new table saw. Ideally, I'd like a left tilt saw, as it's what I'm used to using. I'd strongly prefer a North American made saw and motor. I'm coming from a Craftsman contractors saw, and want something on the opposite end of the spectrum. Smooth, quiet, and accurate. Thus, I've tentatively narrowed my search to the PM66 and the General 650.

I did almost purchase a SawStop, but decided against it at the last moment due to a variety of reasons. I would prefer a saw with a riving knife, but there are none that I'm aware of that meet my above criteria.

Does anyone have direct experience with both the PM66 and the 350/650-T50? Unfortunately, I do not have a dealer close that has both available to look at.

I'm sure either saw would be adequate for my needs, but I'd like to know if there are any reasons that I should go with one over the other. The prices seem to be very close these days. I'm interested in things such as slop/lash in the adjustment wheels, ease of adjustment, miter slot slop, overall sturdiness, etc.

I've heard Powermatic may have better parts availability than General, especially since i'm in Florida. However, that could be changing, considering Powermatic is now WMH and who knows how much longer they'll even be building the PM66.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

[Jim Becker]

Welcome to SMC!

The PM66 is a venerable stand-out and the General machines are also well-thought of. I don't think you could go wrong with either machine. But you might want to consider one of the newer models on the market that support a riving knife such as the PM2000. (General may also have a candidate...I don't know) That may compromise your desire to buy something "made in NA", but considering you are buying a machine that you likely intend to use for a very long time, it would a nice idea to take advantage of new safety features, etc. The PM2K also has built-in mobility.

There are more PM dealers that for General, but I suspect that parts availability may be similar for both brands, generally speaking. (no pun intended) PM has been part of WMH for quite some time now...it's not a new arrangement.

[Zach Hanna]

Thanks for the welcome... I'm usually just a lurker. :)

I should clarify my concerns with overseas machines.

I question the product life span for many of these new saws. I wonder what parts will be available for a PM2000 10 years from now.

There seems to be much less quality control on foreign made saws (conjecture based upon random forum posts here and elsewhere).

Raw materials quality is questionable. Every Chinese made tool that I've used seems to have substantially lower quality steel than the domestic made version. How do I know the cast iron top will not become warped 5 years from now? How do I know a trunion will not develop a crack due to improper treatment during manufacturing?

I seriously doubt the longevity of the motors. I know what Baldor motors are like and how well they're made.

I have an attraction to heavy, quality products. I love my 1972 Parks planer, and my 1950's Craftsman/King Seely drill press.

This probably won't be the last saw I buy, but I want to buy it like it is going to be.

[Jim Becker]

Just remember that just because the "machine" is manufactured in one place doesn't mean the components that went into it were also sourced locally. That's the reality of the manufacturing world today. I do have respect for what you desire...however, even when the tag says, 'Made in the USA' or 'Made in Canada', you'll need to have some flexibility for what you are really getting. I remember something about a Delta product awhile back that had a 'Made in USA' sticker on the base. The base was made in USA... ;) ...it's common for cast iron to be sourced from Asia these days by nearly everyone simply because that's where it's available.

The major machine manufacturers who contract with factories in Asia and elsewhere generally have their own people in place for things like design engineering and quality control. The Deltas, PMs, Jets, Grizzlys, etc., can't afford to do it any other way as poor products and warranty issues are very costly. It's only when you get into third-tier vendors that things get more generic.

I believe that the General does have almost everything from NA, but can't confirm that...I just don't know.

[John Thompson]

"Raw materials quality is questionable. Every Chinese made tool that I've used seems to have substantially lower quality steel than the domestic made version. How do I know the cast iron top will not become warped 5 years from now? How do I know a trunion will not develop a crack due to improper treatment during manufacturing"?.. Zach

How do you know that a NA made saw made with cast iron won't do the same thing?... The process that is used to make cast iron even when quality controlled is no guarantee that it will not stress down the road and crack. If the carbon does not throughly mix evenly in cast iron (and that can happen even under the closest scrutiny), you will have some degress of stress in a batch. So...

The General is an extremely well made saw and parts should be no problem. Redmond and Son Machinery here in Atlanta is a General dealer and have no problems getting parts. Call them and discuss that if you wish. Google for Redmond and Son Machinery to get the number.

The older PM 66's are a bit better made than the PM 2000 IMO, but when I say older which were made in the U.S., you should be aware that the newer batch of 66's weren't. The parts were made over there and assembled in Tennessee on the newer-older. ha.. ha...

Steel City is made over there, but I can assure you the quality is there. And say you did get a PM that the cast iron cracked 3 years down the road.. PM is warranty is 2 years I believe? SC is 5 Years and I am not sure of General. This is something to consider..

Wonderful buying North Amercan.. but IMO that does not automatically mean that something is better. I have been over all of them and I can tell you your immediate needs can be filled with General.. PM.. Steel City.. and older Uni-saw.. etc.

I left the Saw-stop out intentionally, but will say it is an extremely well built saw. But.. I have no intention of paying an extra $2k for the additional safety feature. I don't need a $4K saw period to work as a non professional. If I were a professional, I would purchase the Euro slider as the alternative to a SS as a slider is more versatile with sheet goods and just as safe on shorter solids with your hands coming no where near the blade.

Just my opinion of course...

Sarge..

[Mark Carlson]

Zach,

I dont have direct experience with the 66 but I looked at both saws and went with the General 650. Both saws are awesome and I dont think you could go wrong with either choice. I went with the General because I could never find a negative review or a user with a problem. I also wanted a biesemeyer style fence. I have a local dealer that sells both and the saws were side by side for comparison. I dont remember a negative about the 66 and that was my dream saw for years but my gut said get the General so I did. That was two years ago and I'm glad I went with the General.

If I was in the market today. I would wait a couple of months and see if the rumors about a General 350/650 with a riving knife are true. Otherwise I would get the SawStop. The PM2000 is another option but I've read about to many problems.

~mark

[Eric Haycraft]

One point to keep in mind is that some of these saws that have been the same practically forever...the 66 and Unisaw will soon have to change their designs due to new safety requirements. Their being the same basic machine for 50 plus years has been a large factor in parts availability. I believe that all saws built after 2014 will require a riving knife and all new designs will require one this year. That will mean a redesign of these venerable machines which could cause OEM parts to dry up.
I would personally look for a best of breed saw with a riving knife. Those will be most likely to retain the same design for a longer period of time thus making parts more available. That may mean waiting if you want an American built machine.

[Zach Hanna]

I had no idea General was looking at retrofitting a riving knife to the 350/650. (Just did a little Google research and found more speculation on that).

If that's the case then it's a done deal, as all of my criteria would be met.

That lone may be worth me putting off my purchase for a bit so I can wait and see.

[Narayan Nayar]

When I was in the market for a cabinet saw 2 years ago, I was also deciding between the General 650 and the venerable PM66, leaning towards the 66 since most of my professional woodworking friends had them.

I ended up with the 650 for a number of reasons. I purchased it at a woodworking show which was really the only opportunity I had to check them both out side-by-side. I looked at the PM66 first and asked the PM rep a lot of questions and told him I was also looking at a General. Once he found out I was looking at a General, he basically proceeded to criticize everything about the General--except the saw itself or its features. He went on and on about how it's Canadian and how parts are hard to get and how they don't manufacture things as well as "we do in the States..." blah blah blah.

I went to the General booth and asked about the 650 and told the rep I was looking at the PM66. He said, "that's a great saw...here's where we've done things differently." He proceeded to go through features and focused on differences between the saws. I bought the General on the spot. So sales reps out there take note--there's a difference between knowing your competition and bashing your competition. The former informs your buyer; the latter makes you look like an idiot. The difference was worth a couple of grand that day.

I have other PM equipment--a jointer and a bandsaw--and I'm happy with those and with the customer service I've had on them. In the end it probably won't matter too much which saw you end up with. They're both great saws.

[Simon Dupay]

I vote for the NA made machines I never have used a twainese made cabinet saw that wasn't a POS. (Sawstop,grizzly,jet)

[Fred Voorhees]

I vote for the NA made machines I never have used a twainese made cabinet saw that wasn't a POS. (Sawstop,grizzly,jet)

Tell us how you really feel Simon.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've got a 650 in the basement. Was also thinking of PM 66 vs mine, was leaning towards the 650 already and then the place where I bought it had a sale. You'll be happy with either.

[Simon Dupay]

Saw stop- 1 at work -had to replace trunnion, motor, both belts, dust defector and bearings.

jet-1 at cab school- blade drops as your using it (& it's set-up as the dado saw)
grizzly-1 at work-worst cabinet saw I have ever used it would vibrate so much you couldn't set anything down on it & the switch would shut off while making a cut.
The 3 Unisaws I've used never had a problem.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I bought a General 650 two years ago and have never regretted it. Built solid, runs smooth and don't forget the castings are done with a special process to eliminate any warping over the years.

[Steven Hardy]

Saw stop- 1 at work -had to replace trunnion, motor, both belts, dust defector and bearings.

jet-1 at cab school- blade drops as your using it (& it's set-up as the dado saw)
grizzly-1 at work-worst cabinet saw I have ever used it would vibrate so much you couldn't set anything down on it & the switch would shut off while making a cut.
The 3 Unisaws I've used never had a problem.

I once considered an import vs domestic. I climbed into the cabinets at woodworker supply one by one and examined the bolts threads of each. i ran my finger along every gear in each one. i examined for sae gradeings.I examined the cut of the gears.The salesguy thought i was some kind of nut,when i told him I dont care if the top is shiney or if the paint is glossy...i want to see what it will be like in 10 or 15 years.Whats going to rust? Whats going to wear out?I did the same thing recently at Wood Craft. I made the same decision as I did the first time. Everyone really should do that for themself.NOTHING has changed in that respect.The tops have simply gotten shiney-er.The internal machineing is still the same. Some good...many CRAP!
Some countries I would be comfortable buying from...some NOT.

I did see a titanium coated saw top recently....now that just strikes me as RETARDED!

[Steven Hardy]

Saw stop- 1 at work -had to replace trunnion, motor, both belts, dust defector and bearings.

jet-1 at cab school- blade drops as your using it (& it's set-up as the dado saw)
grizzly-1 at work-worst cabinet saw I have ever used it would vibrate so much you couldn't set anything down on it & the switch would shut off while making a cut.
The 3 Unisaws I've used never had a problem.

I once considered an import vs domestic. I climbed into the cabinets at woodworker supply one by one and examined the bolts threads of each. i ran my finger along every gear in each one. i examined for sae gradeings.I examined the cut of the gears.The salesguy thought i was some kind of nut,when i told him I dont care if the top is shiney or if the paint is glossy...i want to see what it will be like in 10 or 15 years.Whats going to rust? Whats going to wear out?I did the same thing recently at Wood Craft. I made the same decision as I did the first time. Everyone really should do that for themself.NOTHING has changed in that respect.The tops have simply gotten shiney-er.The internal machineing is still the same. Some good...many CRAP!
Some countries I would be comfortable buying from...some NOT.

I did see a titanium coated saw top recently....now that just strikes me as RETARDED!

[scott spencer]

Hi Zach - Can't go wrong with either of those saws. I prefer the face material used on the General. In case you're curious here's some pics of the PM66 trunnions, and pics of another saw that has a similar trunnion system to the General.

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g1023sl_det1.jpg
86113

[Mike Gabbay]

Scott - Am I reading this right? The first pic looks more like the General than the second. I just bought a 650 (delivery on Friday) and the one thing I do know is the trunnion on the 650 is a wide stance trunnion. It is however a single belt versus triple belt. The General Internationals use a lighter trunnion system just like the other imports.

Zach - unless you go with a used PM66 they are now made overseas. The General 350/650 are the still made in NA and use Baldor motors and have Meehanite castings (denser and well aged so any warpage over time is almost non-existant)

[Rod Sheridan]

Scott - Am I reading this right? The first pic looks more like the General than the second. I just bought a 650 (delivery on Friday) and the one thing I do know is the trunnion on the 650 is a wide stance trunnion. It is however a single belt versus triple belt. The General Internationals use a lighter trunnion system just like the other imports.

Zach - unless you go with a used PM66 they are now made overseas. The General 350/650 are the still made in NA and use Baldor motors and have Meehanite castings (denser and well aged so any warpage over time is almost non-existant)

Well Mike, now you've got me wondering and I own a 650, I was sure it had dual belts.....Rod.

[Dan Owen]

I took delivery of a General 350 yesterday and I must say that it is one beefy saw. The inner components of this saw are much heftier than my old Unisaw. The General runs on a two belt system and I will assure you that the performance of the Baldor motor is superior to those found on the imports. Torque and power.

[Mike Gabbay]

Actually Rod my bad... it is a 2 belt system. I think the PM may be 3. The trunnions are the wide base and VERY heavy.

[scott spencer]

The pic of the green saw is a Griz 1023, not a 650, but was used just to point out that the PM66's trunnions are very different from most. I'm sure the 650's trunnion system is beefier than the Griz, but it's more like the 650's than the PM66's. It'd be far more useful if someone actually has a pic of the 650 or even the 350's guts.

Sorry if I confused the issue.

[Mike Gabbay]

Scott - the General site use to have a pic but they removed it.

[Chuck Wintle]

I bought a General 650 two years ago and have never regretted it. Built solid, runs smooth and don't forget the castings are done with a special process to eliminate any warping over the years.

Do you know what the special process is they use for the castings?

[Mike Gabbay]

It's called Meehanite. It is a casting process to make the casting denser and it is cured/aged longer to prevent warpage.

[michael flay]

The only thing on a general saw not made in North America is the magnetic starter, belts and the bearings other than that all the castings , stands and even the general t-fence are made by general in drummondville, quebec and the motor is made by baldor in tennessee(The reason the general t-fence looks identical to the biesenmeyer is because they bought the mfg rights for canada along time ago before they were bought by delta)

[John Browne]

S
Zach - unless you go with a used PM66 they are now made overseas. The General 350/650 are the still made in NA and use Baldor motors and have Meehanite castings (denser and well aged so any warpage over time is almost non-existant)

Incorrect: PM66 is still made in Tennessee. PM2000 is an imported saw.

I have a 66; it's a great saw. So's a Unisaw, General, Steel City, Grizzly, Jet, etc. They will all cut wood nice and straight. Many many people own saws from all those mfgs and find them perfectly adequate.

[Simon Dupay]

The pic of the green saw is a Griz 1023, not a 650, but was used just to point out that the PM66's trunnions are very different from most. I'm sure the 650's trunnion system is beefier than the Griz, but it's more like the 650's than the PM66's. It'd be far more useful if someone actually has a pic of the 650 or even the 350's guts.

Sorry if I confused the issue.

I belive the general has a box trunnion like the 66 not like the unisaw trunnion on the griz.

[Greg Narozniak]

I know you were not listing it but I'll throw one point in.

When I was in the market for an upgrade from my Contractor saw I was between the PM66 (Not made as well as they used to be), General 650 (I think they have the best QC in the business) and the Unisaw (The design that started it all). I went with the Uni because of two reasons. The Price was one and the other was that there is every conceivable accessory for the Uni. Splitters, Metal throat plates with replaceable Inserts, Scoring attachments, etc. May of not be of importance to you but in my view that was a selling point. Mine has a 3hp Marathon motor and a 52" beisemeyer. I will never outgrow this saw.

food for thought.

[Curt Harms]

I read on another forum that the last PM66 rolled off the line a month or so ago, and there were QC issues at the last (no surprise there if true) Does anyone know for sure?

[scott spencer]

Since my pics caused some confusion earlier, I spent a couple of hours today searching for an actual pic of the General's trunnions... I did find a low resolution pic of the General 350 trunnions. The pic of the Griz 1023 trunnions was merely used to give an idea of the differences between mounting brackets of the PM66 and the General's trunnion design...the Griz and the General trunnions are mounted differently from the PM66's, but Griz's picture was much better. Hope this helps.

PM66:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/sawparts/PM66-B.jpg

General 350:
86193

[Scott Seigmund]

86231

Here's a picture of the General 350 trunnion. As you can see, it has more similarities to the PM66 than the Unisaw or Grizzly 1023 copy.

-Scott

[Bob Hallowell]

I once considered an import vs domestic. I climbed into the cabinets at woodworker supply one by one and examined the bolts threads of each. i ran my finger along every gear in each one. i examined for sae gradeings.I examined the cut of the gears.The salesguy thought i was some kind of nut,when i told him I dont care if the top is shiney or if the paint is glossy...i want to see what it will be like in 10 or 15 years.Whats going to rust? Whats going to wear out?I did the same thing recently at Wood Craft. I made the same decision as I did the first time. Everyone really should do that for themself.NOTHING has changed in that respect.The tops have simply gotten shiney-er.The internal machineing is still the same. Some good...many CRAP!
Some countries I would be comfortable buying from...some NOT.

I did see a titanium coated saw top recently....now that just strikes me as RETARDED!

:confused:Well I guess I own a RETARDED saw whch btw I really like. I got a good deal on it but I love the titainium top as my saw lives in my unheated garage and when drastic temp chages come thur It's the only tool out there I don't need to clean the rust off of.

Bob

[Jeff Duncan]

Zach, you've already gotten a bunch of info, I'll just throw a few other observations into the mix.
I've used the 66's, Uni's, Tannewitz's, Olivers, etc and for a general purpose cabinet saw I have to say the 66 is the best saw I've used. For my own shop I went with a Uni b/c it was what was in my budget at the time. Unfortunately I haven't used the General, haven't really bumped into any either.
As far as "offshore" that's a very broad term. There are many European made machines that put some of the US made stuff to shame (take a look at Martin or SCMI). There are many factors that make a broad statement like that inaccurate. There are some very good machines coming from Asia as well as other points on the globe. However most small shop owners are looking for inexpensive machinery and so they don't really have much experience with the better made equipment. There is so much competition for the small shop that companies have to make their machines cheaper and cheaper. How many times have you seen forums where guys push knockoff brands in favor of US made stuff. That's why it's unaffordable to make machines in this country anymore, not enough people are willing to pay for quality. I would argue that any Asian country with modern manufacturing facilities could build a machine as good or better than any other country. But they build to they're clients price point, not to provide superb quality.
Anyway enough rambling, either saw will do what you need and will have parts readily available, so flip a coin. Or for that matter which color best goes with your decor?:D I've also looked into the Sawstop, have no idea where it's made, but if I was buying new that's what I'd get. As much as I liked working with a 66, the Sawstop reflects real improvement in design IMHO, whereas the Uni and 66 are almost unchanged over the decades. I've got too many other machines on my short list, but if someone wanted to trade a Sawstop for my 54' USA made Uni, I wouldn't have to think twice.
good luck,
JeffD

[Dave MacArthur]

I'd like to say thanks Scott Spencer for taking the time to find and post some very interesting pictures of various trunnion systems. We often read about saws being better/worse based on trunnion, but this is the first time I've ever seen some pics for side by side comparison, very interesting!

[Jon Grider]

Just a couple of observations on my mid 90's 66,and qualifying that with the admission that I've never used a General.I can compare it to an old Unisaw and contractor grade Craftsman from the 1950's both of which I knew intimately.
My 66 is well built overall,and to address a couple of your concerns,the miter gauge engages the slot well,and the depth of cut and tilt mechanisms,both work well with accurate repeatability.The Bessie style fence is very good as is the flatness of the table.The side table wings bolted on pretty much dead nut true out of the box.The 3 hp Baldor has never given me any trouble or even shown more than a hint of slowing when cutting some pretty hard stuff.
Lest I sound like a PM rep,I'll point out some of the shortcomings.The plastic motor cover is ill fitting and cheap.Ditto on the plastic handles attached to the DOC and tilt wheels.The dado head insert took extensive filing and sanding before it would drop into the table recess.
After owning this saw for nearly a decade and a half,I can say that I made a good purchase.