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Tom Godley
01-14-2008, 3:12 PM
AKA Building Inspectors

They drive me nuts!!


I am trying to build a small single story addition to my home in NJ. The structure will extend my living room out into a new garden area that I constructed.

The room is going to bump out about 16' from the house and be about 14' wide - building it on a mono slab. It is going to be a nice little room -- I am using some details that I have picked up over the years from FHB mag.


My contract with the builder was signed in Aug/07 with a start date of 10/1/07 -- expected to finish 1st week of 12/07 (never thought that would happen).

It is now the 2nd week of 08 and it has yet to start.

I just found out that starting with the new year they require a "RES check" -- before they will give me the go ahead.

My builder and Architect (that I had to hire because of the code officer) have had it.

I need a condo!

Jim Becker
01-14-2008, 3:51 PM
What the heck is a "RES check"??

But I feel for you...our addition project was delayed probably half a year due to inattention and incompetence at the local level. Too much to go in here, but it was frustrating. And then we got the "rent-an-inspector" from heck named "Frank". (Reminded me of the sheriff in the movie, Porkies...) Fortunately, that individual has been replaced with another "rent-an-inspector", "Steve", who actually knows what he is doing and doesn't complain about things even before he looks at them...

But those delays cost me a lot of money and my normally mild-mannered (and excellent) GC actually came close to using "bad words", which is uncharacteristic of him. So did the mason...who will not even use the popular word for someone's posterior...but he used it to describe "Frank"!

Chris Padilla
01-14-2008, 4:13 PM
I didn't even reach the inspector stage. The quotes my various GCs came back with were a whopping 50% higher than anyone expected due to the fact that the city thinks things needs to be built to withstand a hurricane and a 10.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami. $8k for an architect and useless plans.... :(

Geoff Potter
01-14-2008, 6:34 PM
The Res Check is a checklist and evaluation used to make sure your heating system is efficient for your area. I would go down to the town and explain that you are simply adding to your home, not expanding the HVAC system. There is a free version of the software used for the form. Google rescheck and you will find it.

Tom Godley
01-14-2008, 7:17 PM
I have never heard of the "RES" -- It may indeed take into account the actual heating/AC system.

My builder told me today that it was like an energy audit.

My architect just called and informed me that it uses a checklist of the "to be installed" products - windows/doors -- wall thickness/insulation -- all of the basic building systems that have been picked for the structure.

Then you give a numbered value for each part of the structure - the formula generates another combined number. Your proposed structure must match or exceed this final "RES" value.

My thought given to the architect was that this is already covered by the basic code picked by the town. But my thought now is that it is more like the IRS and the AMT. You can build it to code but by raising the "RES" you mandate a higher standard of the products going into the building.

I am not a professional builder myself -- I have rebuilt quite a few houses over the years and being interested in the latest stuff have run into problems with inspectors not understanding some systems

Glenn Clabo
01-14-2008, 7:23 PM
Yo Chris...Feel good. They forgot the meteor strike!

Tom Godley
01-14-2008, 7:50 PM
Chris -- I feel your pain.

We all know the reasons why we must put up with some codes -- I even think that some towns should actually have stricter codes when it comes to the exterior construction of additions.

But -- the need to have an architect draw plans for my addition was just a waste of money. Nothing has changed. They are now going to require plans for any addition/ or structure change.

My close friend (in another NJ town) -- wanted to have a garage built. It was a 2 1/2 car unit with storage above. He was actually going to build the same one his father had built a few years ago. The town official said that he must build footings and walls able to carry a second floor - because, someone 'may' want to build a second floor in the future. He actually had to take them to court!

Fred Voorhees
01-14-2008, 8:12 PM
Tom, I have had my share of "experiences" with local code guys also. When I had my two floor garage built, they also "advised" me to have an architect draw up plans for the building. I told them that I was going to draw up plans that would be sufficient. That was frowned upon. I asked if it was required and they actually told me no. I told them that if it weren't required, than I wasn't going to be complying with their request. I told them that as long as I could draw up plans that could be understood by everyone involved, why should I spend the extra chunk of money that I could put elsewhere into the building? No answer. Well, I ended up drawing up the plans and they were "good enough" in the local inspectors terms. Man, that felt good to have him admit that and walked away with a smile on my face.

Greg Cuetara
01-14-2008, 8:32 PM
It is very suprising that with how the codes are written now-a-days that we all still have to jump through hoops to make the 'building code official' happy. I work as a Professional Engineer. I went to school for 5 years...taken 3 - 8hr Professional Engineering Exams and if the high school dropout 'official' doesn't like or agree with my calculations or agree with me I have to redo everything. I had to go in one day and teach one 'official' the building code. He questioned everything I did but once I sat with him for 3 hours and explained the code line for line he said, 'oh thats what that means.' Even if plans are stamped they still get questioned and torn apart. Buildings can be put together a million different ways...there are better ways than others but there is no one right way.

Tom good luck with your endeavor.
Greg

Tom Godley
01-14-2008, 8:37 PM
Fred -- I think I am getting old!
Some of the fight is out of me.

I have actually worked with this official on two properties in my town -- He is very by the book - many do not like him. But to tell the truth he has been quite nice to me. So I try not to "rock the boat"

I should have pressed the issue on the plans -- but I did not think I had the time -- clearly .... I did. Also he wanted someone (an architect) to sign off on the plans. But I think before this is all over I am going to ask

Ken Fitzgerald
01-14-2008, 10:02 PM
Tom,

When I first moved here 25 years ago I had to retruss the roof on my carport because the mental deficits that built it didn't understand what trusses....gussets and headers were. The city had a new head of the code enforcement division that was daily talk in the letters to editor section of the local newspaper. The letters were almost always from local contractors that weren't used to having a standardized building code enforced. In short, if the idiot that built my carport had followed the existing code I wouldn't have had to retruss it in place and later replace the undersized header too.

Most building code inspectors are just doing their job. In my view, they are enforcing building codes that will protect those of us who may or may not be too savy about mechanical and structural engineering.

So I took my college carpentry text book.......drew up some plans (I used to be a draftsman) and went to the building inspection office and asked to see the "Top Dog"....."The Man"......"The subject of all these letters to the editor from unhappy contractors"......When I walked in with my college carpentry text book that I use as a reference.....he chuckled...pointed over his shoulder to his book case and proceeded to tell me he had another copy he used at home. He said let me see your plans and signed off on them 5 minutes later after making some recommendations that would reduce the cost of my retrussing without weakening it too much.

That was 25 years ago. I'm still finishing the w/w shop I started 4 years ago and will probably call for a final inspection in another month or so. Some of the inspectors and I are on first name basis and they always compliment my work.....make suggestions.....and yes....we learn from each other. They are trying to do a job that often displeases folks. But they are there to protect those of us who may not be knowledgeable about HVAC, electical, plumbing and construction safety.

BTW I am not a building code inspector.......but I know a few.

JMHO.

Bryan Berguson
01-14-2008, 10:11 PM
The worst inspectors are the ones who try to "read" stuff in the code books to penalize you. We have one in a local borough that does that. No real building experience, just read a lot of books. Some expert!

Bryan

Mark Rios
01-15-2008, 2:23 AM
I didn't even reach the inspector stage. The quotes my various GCs came back with were a whopping 50% higher than anyone expected due to the fact that the city thinks things needs to be built to withstand a hurricane and a 10.0 earthquake and subsequent tsunami. $8k for an architect and useless plans.... :(




But Chris, you live RIGHT ON TOP of a fault line! :D

Building in CA IS very frustrating.

Tom Godley
01-15-2008, 7:55 AM
Ken -- I agree with everything you said.

When I first went to off to school in the late 70's, my first year roommates and I bought a house to rehab over that first summer - we not only rehabed that house but were involved in quite a few more over the next 15 years. I can think of two different officials that really went out of their way to help a bunch of kids learn how to 'get it right'.

Unfortunitly -- if you run into a situation where you are forced to get an architects stamp in order to get a permit - self drawings are out. I can not see a situation where anyone would stamp a drawing for you.

I have had an inspector require an engineer to look at a load on a self drawing -- I built a garage with no center support using paralams. I understood that at the time (1991) because the information was not as easy to get. I just paid the engineer to review the load.

One of the primary issues I had -- The inspector was concerned about the weight of the proposed monoslab (footing. walls, slab all poured at once) and how this would affect the nearby main house walls. I was confused - my builder was confused - so was the architect and the engineer ---- Then I was poorer!!

I wanted to pour a monoslab for many reasons -- cost/speed/strength -- equipment impact on the site etc..

Until you run into the problem it can be hard to understand.

Joe Pelonio
01-15-2008, 8:03 AM
Many states and municipalities have changed the laws that require full compliance with not only building codes but energy efficiency for the entire structure when any permit is obtained. We hear about that often, when someone gets a permit for new windows or adding a deck to an older home and has to rewire the house.

Cliff Rohrabacher
01-15-2008, 9:10 AM
You and I may have the same Building inspectors.

There are more than a couple of old school guys here who keep trying to do things the way they would some 15 years ago when the inspectors were more laid back. These new guys don't want to see plumbers swapping out outlets or changing breakers nor electrical guys soldering pipes etc.

Recently I had the whole team through my house after I rewired my whole shop and put in two sub panels and also had a contractor install two air conditioner systems ducts and all. The thing that any of them did was electrical in my shop. The electrical guy asked me to put in one staple on a wire. That was it. One staple.

Al Willits
01-15-2008, 9:43 AM
Those who can, do
Those who can't, inspect

Some do ok, many don't.

Unfortunately here it seems permits are a way to raise revenue, nice idea, gone astray.

Al

Chris Padilla
01-15-2008, 10:40 AM
Permits? Who needs permits anyway! ;)

:D :D

jeremy levine
01-15-2008, 11:12 AM
You should have seen the party in my area when one of the local inspectors was arrested for soliciting and accepting bribes.

David G Baker
01-15-2008, 1:51 PM
Chris,
Have you ever had any work done on a resident in San Francisco? A friend of mine owns a house in SF, you would not believe the horror stories she tells any time she hires a contractor.
This is not a inspector horror story because of the quake possibility and potential fire caused by a quake, all of the drain plumbing must be copper. Priced copper lately? The horror comes from sticker shock.

Jim Becker
01-15-2008, 1:54 PM
David, I didn't have to do drains in copper, but I was forced to use copper for the hot and cold supply lines in my addition, despite the fact that I wanted PEX since we have somewhat acid water. But there is actually a local ordinance on the books that requires copper...

Tom Godley
01-15-2008, 2:53 PM
Just had my RES done -- it is a bit of a joke.

We are in the "Green Zone" of the graph. Like the guy who thought this thing up!.

Jim - You are more than likely already know that in Philadelphia you must use cast iron and copper - No PVC- ......in-ground must be cast.

Also, they made me install metal duct work for HVAC -- This on a house that had hot water heat!! I was not going to install central because it was a small trinity. But I had to install the ductwork.

Jim Becker
01-15-2008, 3:23 PM
Tom, I'm trying to understand why they would make you install forced air duct work if you have hydronic heat...did they also make you put in a heat exchanger so you could actually USE the ductwork? Or is it just a superhighway for rodents....

Chris Padilla
01-15-2008, 3:49 PM
Or is it just a superhighway for rodents....

That would be the 'net.... :rolleyes:

Chris Padilla
01-15-2008, 3:52 PM
Chris,
Have you ever had any work done on a resident in San Francisco? A friend of mine owns a house in SF, you would not believe the horror stories she tells any time she hires a contractor.
This is not a inspector horror story because of the quake possibility and potential fire caused by a quake, all of the drain plumbing must be copper. Priced copper lately? The horror comes from sticker shock.

I remember when This Old House did an old church in SF and the crew was shocked about using copper for the DWV system. Today that is almost a precious metal to be invested in!! Go gather up them old fittings to exchange for a loaf of bread!! ;)

Tom Godley
01-15-2008, 5:11 PM
Jim: It is the unions!

The head of the metalworkers union was on also the head of the zoning board- I can not remember what it is actually called - but you get the idea.

That is when this was pushed through - although the need to have someone on the board really does not matter in Philly

It actually became a big issue when the University of Pennsylvania donated a building and money to create a new k-8 school right next to the campus - I think it may have been a charter. In any event - the k-8 school could not afford the 150k to install the ductwork for a building that was not going to be used in the summer.

They never backed down - it must be metal - no flex/ no duct board

If you remember the new Comcast building had a problem because the builders wanted to win some national green award. They made the mistake of using toilets (urinals) that do not require water - they have some type of drain. The unions went crazy because the plumbing was going to be reduced by a huge amount. Well......... they built the building with all the normal plumbing - they just don't use it!

I do not think anybody will do that again - so much for being green!

And no -- you do not have to have any hvac equipment installed.

Jeffrey Makiel
01-15-2008, 9:55 PM
It seems that one way to improve code enforcement is to have the code requirements defined at the state level or other large geographical method. There is no need for plumbing, electrical and framing codes to vary by city in densely populated areas.

If there are special requirements needed by the city, the city should show cause and be challenged when trying to "improve" upon State or State adopted national codes.

Having State or regional code requirements would probably help provide clarity, reduce corruption and reduce cost. It will also help product developers to more easily introduce new materials and methods to the construction industry. If anything, it may spare the homeowner and/or contractor the aggravation from poorly trained inspectors. It would be nice to have an appeal system or regional review board to go to instead of the mayor's brother-in-law or a judge.

-Jeff :)

Wes Bischel
01-15-2008, 10:59 PM
Tom,
I feel your pain. I built my garage 14 years ago and it was an uphill struggle then - now, I'm not sure I would do it. One bit of advice, try to be patient and cooperative. If you push too hard, human nature dictates a push back. And that usually doesn't work in your favor.:(

Good luck, a lot of us have been in your shoes. We're pulling for you.

Wes

Chris Padilla
01-16-2008, 10:52 AM
If you remember the new Comcast building had a problem because the builders wanted to win some national green award. They made the mistake of using toilets (urinals) that do not require water - they have some type of drain. The unions went crazy because the plumbing was going to be reduced by a huge amount. Well......... they built the building with all the normal plumbing - they just don't use it!

I do not think anybody will do that again - so much for being green!


All this was after the fact but here at work, they replaced all the urinals with the flushless kind (i.e. no water). I wonder what would have happend had they built new and tried to use flushless/waterfree urinals from the start. They even pasted little cards above them so you can read while doiing the deed how you are saving 20,000 gallons of freshwater per year with this newfangled flushless/waterless system! :)

It is unbelievable what some can get away with. Should be interesting!