Spiral cutterhead question(s)

[John Miliunas]

In cruising through the latest Griz catalog, I note that many of their jointers now have the spiral cutterhead option (even on a 6" version!). Anybody out there have a jointer with one of these heads on it? I could see where it would be really advantageous, particularly on figured woods. At the same time, it's an expen$ive option and I can't help but wonder if it's worth it. Granted, you have four cutting surfaces on each little cutter, though I would think you'd have to rotate the whole lot of them to gain any benefit. Also, I imagine that the manufacturing process *has* to be real, real tight, particularly with how the cutterhead sits in the bearing pillows. Don't think there'd be *any* room for error, and I don't know how/if it's adjustable. Thoughts, opinions, suggestions? :cool:

[Todd Burch]

John, I've researched these a lot, although never held one or used one. Mike Mastin purchased a spiral head for his planer and he loves it. They are pretty quiet too, as I understand. And, since it's an easier cut, you can throttle down on the HP requirements and get a wider head.

There are two flavors that I know of. One where the 1/2" x 1/2" cutters are staggered around the head and cut square with the wood. The other, also called a "sheared helical" or (using Byrd Tools terminology) "shelical", in which the cutter is angled so it cuts on the shear versus straight. I understand this sheared design to be even quieter.

Todd

[JayStPeter]

It's in my plan to get one for my jointer as soon as my shop is done. Seems worth it to me just to avoid having to set knives again :). A former co-worker got one for his and brought in some very curly maple he jointed. It pretty much looked ready to finish w/ no tear-out. He said he usually needed to hit figured wood with handplanes and scrapers to tame the tear-out, even if he used fresh sharpened blades and wetted the wood. If he had the cash, he would have gotten one for his planer as well.

Jay

[Lynn Sonier]

Pardon what might turn out to be a very stupid question, but what effect does wetting the wood have on the cut? Is it advantageous in cutting oak? In pine?
Thanks guys,
Lynn

[Richard Allen]

Pardon what might turn out to be a very stupid question, but what effect does wetting the wood have on the cut? Is it advantageous in cutting oak? In pine?
Thanks guys,
Lynn

Hi Lynn

Wetting wood on endgrain will fill the spaces between the fibers with water it will also swell the wood fibers. That filling will give the knives something to cut against.

Because figured woods have grain running every which way, wetting wood can help the cut. You can fill the the holes with things other than water, oil, glue, finish... It is a good idea to fill with something that is compatable with the finish you are planing on using.

Unless you have curly oak or oak burl there isn't much point in using water.

Good Luck

Richard

[Martin Shupe]

Do they sell and aftermarket version of these for a DJ-20? or a Delta planer?

If so, who are the venders?

Or are they only available with new machines?

[Todd Burch]

Yes Martin, you can buy aftermarket. Try www.byrdtool.com. They even list a DJ-20 as a model with a price - $449. (http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.html)

[Ken Garlock]

Do they sell and aftermarket version of these for a DJ-20? or a Delta planer?

If so, who are the venders?

Or are they only available with new machines?

Hi Martin, yes they do sell heads for the DJ-20, and they are $449 as I recall. Take a look at their website here. (http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.html) The planer heads are quite expensive, as much as $2,000 to $7,000 :(

[Chuck Wintle]

This may be a dumb question but will spiral cutter put more side thrust on the cutter bearings thus wearing them out more quickly?

[Dave Arbuckle]

Those heads that Grizzly sells are not the same as the Byrd heads mentioned in this thread. Grizzly's head have the carbides placed square to the stock, where the Shelix heads have them canted.

I have all the money saved up for a jointer head from Byrd, I'm just on the fence whether to get a spiffier jointer to put it on.

Dave

[Martin Shupe]

Yes Martin, you can buy aftermarket. Try www.byrdtool.com. They even list a DJ-20 as a model with a price - $449. (http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.html)

If I remember correctly from the website, the ones that fit my planer are around $800, and you get to tear down and rebuild your planer yourself!

I don't know if I can justify the planer, as I need to find a local guy to plane/finish sand wide(r) panels anyway.

I sure could use them to joint/plane some of my curly cherry and curly maple though.

Might be able to afford (and justify to my wife) the jointer blades in a few years. I'd better actually finish some projects my wife wants, first.

Can anyone tell me if they are really worth the big bucks?

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

John
Although my mind is going.... We (me and the other teachers in our department that taught woodworking) had an Oliver (I think) 20 inch planer with a spiral cutting head. It had 69, 2 inch square knives around the head and each knife sat square to the cutting surface.
Back in the 1985/86/84/83 - when we purchased it - it cost $14,000.

Boy was it quiet - we could teach over the noise it made. What a beautiful cut and we could get it down to 1/8 inch thickness.

So is the spiral head worth it - well yes and no - depending on the noise factor and the individual cutters, and money you have available.

You might also consider that a jointer is a "hand push" machine and may be a little easier to push wood over the spiral knives than over the "kerchunking" straight knives. (you guys know what I mean - kechunck, kerchunk, kerchunk) But faster! Or Burrrrp over the spiral knives. Ah, good sounds eh?

Oh by the way - each square knife could be rotated through the four sides.

It also came with a motor grinder that mounted on top of the planer to resharpen the knives. I only had to do that once during my tenure working with it.
Daniel :cool:

[Alan Turner]

Great thread, as I have been planning on a Byrd Tool shelix for my 12" jointer. They quoted it, and I now have the money (from a commission just compelted). But -- on another forum a fellow bought one from them, a 6" I think, and found that it left rairad track type of light marks on the wood. He was sending it back for inspection and reworking if needed, and that was fine with them both, but I never heard the follow up on it. This is a long way of asking if anyone here has the one(s) from Byrd tool, and if so, how they like them. I am hoping someone will chime in.
Alan

[Allan Johanson]

I've been reading this thread with great interest too since I was thinking of buying the Delta 15" planer, but then a friend of mine told me to check out the new Powermatic 15" planer with a spiral cutterhead. I want a good planer to dimension some curly maple with as little tearout as possible and was debating the big Delta vs the new DeWalt. Still don't know.

But anyhow, look at the Powermatic if you have a store near you. I don't have a local source unless I want to drive 3 hours each way.

As for the marks on the wood that the fella had with the Byrd shelix cutterhead, when I was doing some surfing, I came across some comments from folks that experienced the same thing with carbide blades. HSS provided a clean cut, and the carbide always seemed to leave marks. So maybe you want a shelix cutterhead with HSS knives that you can hone easily?

I'm also confused about this grinding attachment or whatever I have read about these spiral/shelix cutterheads. How does it work?

If I buy an aftermarket Byrd shelix cutterhead for a Delta 15" planer, or for my DJ-20 jointer, how to I sharpen them, or even align the dozens of blades on these things? Suppose I run a nail through them and need to replace 4 of those blades - how do I set those properly to be within a thou of each other (or whatever the correct tolerance should be)?

Maybe I should skip this shelix thing and dimension the wood pretty close to final size with the Delta 15" and then use my Performax and test my patience while it finishes sanding to the final dimensions?

Totally confused....

Allan

[Alan Turner]

I understand from speaking with Byrd that if you trash a cutting edge, you just take out the cutter, flip it 90 degrees, and reinstall. There is a square of metal that registers to the cutterhead, which gives you the alignment automatically.
Alan

[Todd Burch]

Allan, they are disposable knives (at least the ones that I have looked at). After you knick them, you can rotate just the cutters that are knicked. During installation, they only register in one location, so there is no adjustment. Since they are disposable, no sharpening.

[Mike Mastin]

Maybe I should skip this shelix thing and dimension the wood pretty close to final size with the Delta 15" and then use my Performax and test my patience while it finishes sanding to the final dimensions?

Totally confused....

Allan[/QUOTE]

Allan,

We have a Byrd Shelix head in our shop planer and it has seen hard use for over a year now. I would never ever consider using anything else or anyone elses helical head! It is very quiet, no tearout on even the most figured woods (Curly quarter sawn White Oak and Quilted Maple are simply no match!).
You mention that you read that someone had a problem with a Byrd Shelix cutter head that they installed, but never heard anymore. I have talked to a wealth of Byrd head owners and everyone of them was incredibly thrilled with the performance and the quietness. To me the noise reduction along is worth the cost as we can plane wood with customers in the shop and not have to worry about handing out ear protection!

There can always be a bad product produced, even Rolls-Royce might have a bug or two here and there. I bet you anything that if there was a problem Mr. Byrd made it right. They have been great to us with supplying new cutting inserts and answered all of my questions during my initial investigations before purchase.

As far as your needs go, it might not be worth your money and application to splurge for the Shelix head. You have to ask yourself what are the real benifits for the woods that you use, your comfort factor and willingness to deal with a screaming planer :-)

We will be installing a Byrd head in our jointer very soon as well.

When we purchase a larger planer for our shop, it will have a Byrd Shelix head in it, no matter who makes the planer. We are that thrilled with the product and the company.

[Allan Johanson]

Thanks for clarifying things, guys. I have no doubt the Byrd is a quality unit. For myself, I need to figure out what planer to buy.

I can buy the Delta 380 15" planer for a great price at an upcoming sale, but the Byrd cutterhead will double the cost of the planer. It's a hefty sum, especially for a hobbyist like me, but maybe that's a better machine than the new Powermatic with its spiral cutterhead? Maybe worth the 30% premium in price compared to the Powermatic?

But then when reality sets in and I look at the numbers and see the Delta 15" with the Byrd will cost 3x to 4x as much as the new DeWalt in my area....

I don't know what to do. Oh well, it's only money, right? :D

Allan

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

For Alan Turner and Allan Johanson, et al
With about a 160 students a day using the wood shop, the big planer received a fair amount of use. So over the years we did rotate the cutting knives 90 degrees and used all 4 sides eventually.

At one point, it became time to sharpen the knives - 69 of them.

So set up the grinding attachment to the top rail of the planer (supplied as part of the planer package) and after proper alignment and touching of the knives, with the grinding wheel, and the use of feeler gauges etc.

We were able to grind each knife in succession while indexing the cutter head and rotating it to the next knife to repeat the process of sharpening that knife.

I forget if we did all four sides of all 69 knives at that time - it was an after school, "stay late", job - so we (my coworker and myself) may have only completed one edge on each knife.

[Chris Padilla]

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as I am finding myself in a bit of a quandry over:

(1) Felder's J/P Combo (741 16" or 751 20") but no helical or spiral cutter head availble versus

(2) Grizzly's G9953ZX 16" Jointer and G0544 20" Planer...both are available with Grizzly's spiral cutterhead.

If I am adding up the numbers I have correctly, I can get Grizzly's equipment (albeit two large machines in my two-car garage) on a semi-comparable basis for a couple k less than the 751 AD from Felder. Grizzly's 20" monster jointer coupled with the above 20" planer puts it over the top so I'm using their 16" one.

I really like the idea of the spiral cutterhead (I have a lot of board feet of curly/quilted maple) but I'm unsure how well TWO separate machines will fit in my already space-challenged garage. I also have a bandsaw coming so....

I think if the 741 or 751 had a spiral cutterhead available, it would make my choice significantly easier. :confused:

Thoughts?

[John Miliunas]

Chris, when you say it's not available, do you mean from Felder or by *anyone*? Have you checked with Byrd? It appears to me that you're in this for the long-haul and, although I'm sure it may not be "cheap" if Byrd has one available, it might be the ticket. :cool:

[Jim Becker]

Chris, ditto on John's thoughts...

Although the Grizzly stuff is nice with the spiral heads, the Felder (or MiniMax or...) is in a different league in both design and power. I haven't run into any issue with the Tersa heads on my MM with any stock I've run throught it and there are plenty of techniques to deal with difficult wood. Unless you're in a heavy production mode and milling highly figured material constantly, you'll likely be very happy with the combo despite a spiral cutter not being standard.

[Todd Burch]

Chris, when I ordered my Felder 20" J/P, I was REALLY REALLY wanting a spiral head. I talked to Felder about it, and I even talked to Byrd Tool about it...

It was not available, and Byrd mentioned that Felder was not cooperative on their specs for Byrd to make one.

I decided that if the 4-knife Felder cutterblock was not the ticket after the machine arrived, I would send the head to Byrd to have a spiral made. Since I ordered the machine, I have heard a lot of good things about the 4 knife cutterblock. So, when the machine arrives this week (WOO-HOO!), give me a week to get electrical and dust collection going, and I'll give you a report. I have a lot of rough curly maple to mill up.

Todd

[Alan Turner]

Well, just to continue this thread a bit, I did finally pull the trigger, and my 12" jointer cutterhead arrived in good shape at Byrd's late Friday afternoon. This won't be a gloat till I get it back, but I am so excited that I told Gary, the fellow at Byrd that I am dealing with, that I would try to call not any more frequently that once or twice a day.
And, to follow up on my first post on this issue, the fellow that was not happy is not quite happy. I emailed with him before I made the final decision. Now the issue is whether, when they shop my jointer head back, I also have them send me one for my planer, a 20" Wooktek import. They make those as a stock item, so they are less expensive than the one they are specially making for me. I tend to work in figured woods quite a bit, and so I decided to go for it.
Gloat to follow, I hope!
Alan

[Chris Padilla]

I am still leaning towards Felder simply due to the space issue but I was a bit disappointed upon clicking on Byrd's list! :( I'm certainly in no hurry moving forward so I'll wait patiently for Todd's report. Sigh, the pages in my Griz catalog are all stuck together after lots of drooling and calculations last weekend but right now, I grimace at the space requirements for a separate planer and jointer. :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/

Anyone have any experience with this brand of high-high-high-end machines? I think they might make Felder look reasonable! :eek:

:D

[Steven Wilson]

SCMI group - the parent company for MiniMax; good stuff. You might want to check out Martin (http://www.martin-usa.com ) or Altendorf also.

[nic obie]

http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/

Anyone have any experience with this brand of high-high-high-end machines? I think they might make Felder look reasonable! :eek:

:D

Hi Chris

SCM is the largest stationary power tool maker in the world. They are the ones who manufacture the MiniMax line. Really good stuff!

[Chris Padilla]

I think I am getting in WAY over my head looking at SCM or Martin :eek: but it sure is fun!

[Jim Becker]

I think I am getting in WAY over my head looking at SCM or Martin but it sure is fun!
Why would you conside MiniMax over your head?...it's generally a little less expensive than Felder from what I've seen. (Less options on some equipment accounts for that--Felder is premo)

If you want 16", than the FS 41 Elite (http://www.minimax-usa.com/fs410elite.html)is the one to compare. But MM can get larger (20"); they are just not on the web site so you'll have to talk with them about it.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

Perhaps I don't understand the relationship between SCM and MiniMax? Looking at that website for SCM, I didn't see "MiniMax" at all. What big picture am I missing out on as usual? :)

[Jim Becker]

Perhaps I don't understand the relationship between SCM and MiniMax? Looking at that website for SCM, I didn't see "MiniMax" at all. What big picture am I missing out on as usual?
About MiniMax (http://www.minimax-usa.com/about.html)

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/machines/standard_line/f410nseries.html
http://www.scmgroup-usa.com/machines/standard_line/s520eseries.html

These are an SCM branded jointer and planer. This is all I was referring to when I said I was in way over my head! :D

[Bob Babich]

Do any of you have any comments about Powermatics 15" planer with the byrd cutterhead (PM15 HH). It is new and just wondering if it is a good tool for a home shop with a lot of wood to plane.

[jim gossage]

.

As for the marks on the wood that the fella had with the Byrd shelix cutterhead, when I was doing some surfing, I came across some comments from folks that experienced the same thing with carbide blades. HSS provided a clean cut, and the carbide always seemed to leave marks. So maybe you want a shelix cutterhead with HSS knives that you can hone easily?

I'm also confused about this grinding attachment or whatever I have read about these spiral/shelix cutterheads. How does it work?

If I buy an aftermarket Byrd shelix cutterhead for a Delta 15" planer, or for my DJ-20 jointer, how to I sharpen them, or even align the dozens of blades on these things? Suppose I run a nail through them and need to replace 4 of those blades - how do I set those properly to be within a thou of each other (or whatever the correct tolerance should be)?

Totally confused....

Allan

i recently bought an 8" yorkcraft jointer with byrd shelix cutterhead (about $400 extra). it has 6 rows of spirally oriented carbide inserts. the edge of each insert is "radiused" or slightly curved, which is supposed to improve the finish and lessen ridges that you see with straight inserts. when one gets dull or nicked, you simply remove one screw, turn the insert 90 degrees, and replace the screw - no fiddling around, no dials gauges, no gizzmos. the inserts cannot be adjusted in any other fashion, so i do not believe that sharpening them would be easy unless you have a computer aided sharpener that could tolerance down to about 0.002". if you can afford a spiral cutterhead, you can afford to replace the inserts, say in 5 or 10 years after you've worn all 4 edges down!

now, how well does it work. awesome! i would have paid double for it (i hope the byrd guy doesn't lurk here)! no tearout on figured maple, walnut, or cherry so far. in fact, i really don't pay attention to grain direction anymore. i have not seen tearout once in the 2 months i have owned it. very quiet and smooth. a little more feed pressure because knife edges are always engaged in the wood. i can't imagine that kickback would ever be a problem, so it might actually be a safety feature. a few articles have mentioned that spiral cutterheads leave small ridges, but of course, so do steel knives when nicked. so far, i really haven't noticed any ridges that won't disappear with a few passes of sandpaper or that interfer with edge gluing. all in all, i'm quite happy with it. my only complaint is that i didn't buy a yorkcraft planer with spiral head, which by the way can be had for around $1400 and looks like a tank (http://www.wilkemachinery.com/default.tpl?action=full&cart=1171796518349290&--eqskudatarq=2534)

[Martin Shupe]

Do any of you have any comments about Powermatics 15" planer with the byrd cutterhead (PM15 HH). It is new and just wondering if it is a good tool for a home shop with a lot of wood to plane.

Wow, talk about an old thread!

Since this thread started, I have installed, with John's assistance over the phone, the Shelix cutterhead on my DJ-20. I really like it.

I have not seen the new Powermatic 15" with the Byrd option, can you tell me how much it costs? Do they make a 20" version?

My jointer will sometimes leave small ridges, but that is better than tearout, and I can handplane the joints anyway.

My current planer leaves small ripples, so I have to sand or hand plane them out. If I had a planer with a byrd shelix head, I would have no tearout, and I could sand or plane out the ridges.

Someday I'll buy a new planer, with a byrd head installed....but not right now.

[John Miliunas]

Do any of you have any comments about Powermatics 15" planer with the byrd cutterhead (PM15 HH). It is new and just wondering if it is a good tool for a home shop with a lot of wood to plane.

Bob, I can't speak for that particular, exact combination but, let me say this: First, the PM 15" planer has been a staple in many shops both, home and light commercial. As for the Shelix, I currently have one on my DJ-20 and highly doubt I would ever own another jointer w/o the Shelix! :) I happen to have a 15" planer, albeit, not a PM. It's a real nice Yorkcraft which, as soon as funds allow, will also be outfitted with the Shelix. Only way to fly, IMHO. :D

Yes, I do get some "scalloping" off the jointer but, I used to get that with regular knives and still do on the planer, as well. It's simply the nature of the process where cutting edges are entering the wood from above, taking a chunk of wood out and then exiting. However, like Martin said, a real quick pass with a hand plane, scraper or sandpaper takes care of that in a hurry and you're NOT working around tearout! :D It's wonderful!!! :) :cool:

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I've heard much good about the tru helical cutters thet byrd sells and not so great things about the insert cutters that are not true helicals.

I've also seen cutterheads set at a slight angle to the direction of the feed so it's always skiving.

This is a really nice one too or so I'm told:
58183

[Bob Michaels]

Hey guys, I've had a PM 12" Jointer with helical cutterhead for about 18 months now. 56 cutter inserts that are 2 sided (not 4 sided). Love the way it cuts, doesn't leave a tracks. Came with a few extra inserts, which indicates there is no need to change 'em all at the same time. That's the concept of inserts. At the time (2 years ago) the helical with inserts was a new item from PM on the Jointer so I had to wait about 3 months to get it from overseas. Was worth the wait. Now they're readily available, it's old news. My 2 cents worth, hope it helps.

[glenn bradley]

This is a confusing area for me. Like Todd I have researched the dickens outta these. Two 8" jointer bake-offs found the spiral heads with the four sided carbide cutters to require more feed effort and leave ridges (that were sanded down easily). Both mags preferred different jointers out of their respective test units although none were duplicated.

Both mags preferred straight knives and sited other options as better for convenience but not cut quality. That being said, I read the opposite on SMC from actual users (who's opinions carry more weight than any mag whether they advertise or not). I'll be interested to follow this thread and add the info to my decision making engine ;-)

[Todd Solomon]

This is a confusing area for me. Like Todd I have researched the dickens outta these. Two 8" jointer bake-offs found the spiral heads with the four sided carbide cutters to require more feed effort and leave ridges (that were sanded down easily). Both mags preferred different jointers out of their respective test units although none were duplicated.

Both mags preferred straight knives and sited other options as better for convenience but not cut quality. That being said, I read the opposite on SMC from actual users (who's opinions carry more weight than any mag whether they advertise or not). I'll be interested to follow this thread and add the info to my decision making engine ;-)

Glenn and others, just so you have all of the perspectives, I have a Byrd head in my planer and will share with you my experience. I happen to agree with the magazine's conclusions. I don't think they're worth doubling the cost of a machine. I get a little less tearout on my machine, but it's just not night-and-day better than straight knives.

The cutterhead also came late, and had quality issues. I had a lot of broken inserts when my machine was delivered, and a bunch more broke over time, while not in use. They must have been over-torqued at the factory. If I were to do it over again, I would just get straight knives and upgrade with Esta Dispos-a-blade quick-change knives. Based on my experience, the price premium for the Byrd head is not worth it. Which, if I recall, is also what one of the magazines concluded.

Todd

[John Miliunas]

Glenn and others, just so you have all of the perspectives, I have a Byrd head in my planer and will share with you my experience. I happen to agree with the magazine's conclusions. I don't think they're worth doubling the cost of a machine. I get a little less tearout on my machine, but it's just not night-and-day better than straight knives.

The cutterhead also came late, and had quality issues. I had a lot of broken inserts when my machine was delivered, and a bunch more broke over time, while not in use. They must have been over-torqued at the factory. If I were to do it over again, I would just get straight knives and upgrade with Esta Dispos-a-blade quick-change knives. Based on my experience, the price premium for the Byrd head is not worth it. Which, if I recall, is also what one of the magazines concluded.

Todd

Hey Todd, mind my asking what flavor of planer you have? I certainly don't wish to start a "war" on this but, I'm sold on the Byrd heads and am saving pennies for my Yorkie planer. Thanks much! :) :cool:

[Todd Solomon]

Hi John,

It's an Oliver 22" industrial planer (late-model). I didn't have Oliver install their optional asian spiral cutterhead, and instead went for the Byrd. Oliver said that they had started out using Byrd, but had switched to another supplier due to delivery and quality issues. This mirrors my experience, I should have listened to them.

I'm glad that the majority of owners out there are happy, and I guess mine is okay now. But it's been a lot of headaches and a $1800 adder. Now, it's stabilized, in the sense that I haven't had any inserts that have broken while the machine is sitting. But I definitely still get tearout. My most recent tearout experience has been on figured and crotch walnut. I did not see any improvement in tearout over my straight-knived jointer, on the same lumber. Maybe it's a little better than straight knives, hard to tell. I used my #4 smoother with 50 degree frog to remove the tearout. Since I would have had to do that after a straight-knived planer any way, I haven't realized the benefit from this expensive cutterhead.

If a good friend of mine approached me and asked me if he should buy the Byrd, I'd advise against it. The Yorkcraft 20" planer is about $1,000, and the Byrd adder is another $1,000. I just don't see how it's worth doubling the cost of the machine. Maybe certain combinations of feed rate, cutterhead RPM, and the Byrd head would work better than my combination, I don't know. I just know that I haven't seen any significant benefit to the cutterhead.

I know that the online concensus is that the Byrd really improves tearout, but that has not been my experience. It would be interesting if someone, such as a magazine, did a side-by-side scientific test, comparing straight-knife performance Vs. spiral cutterhead. I wonder what they would conclude. The FWW 8" jointer review did not speak highly of them, but I don't know how thorough their tests were.

I probably have higher standards than the typical guy, but after paying as much as I did for the Byrd, I expected to see measurable results. That was not the case.

Todd