Grain/Pore Filler Reccomendation

[Greg Cole]

I'm getting ready to start the procedure for finishing some mahagony (hall table). I've got 90% of the schedule I want for the look I want sorted out.
Grain fill, dye, shellac, seal-a cell, glaze, arm-r-seal and good old briwax.
The one step I've left out of my sample board prepping is grain-pore filling...... out of laziness (ie not wanting to dirve 45 + minutes each way to Woodcraft this weekend)...
Any help-advise on water based versus oil based etc would be great. What colored fillers used on what woods etc etc etc.
Yes, I've done the obligatory homework & read some good info on filling... but hands on advise (in a non-book format) is nice to have in advance of my own hands on.;)

TIA....

Greg

[Jim Becker]

The only one I've used is the Behlen's Pour-O-Pak filler. Easy to use and does a nice job. (Don't try and do too large an area at once...) While you "can" use it on the bare wood, sealing with de-waxed shellac first is a good idea, especially if you are using a colored filler. You WILL alter the color of the wood if you put a colored filler on the bare wood...DAMHIKT!

[Greg Cole]

Thanks Jim.
I'd given some thought to the shellac as a sealer but not for the naked wood in this instance. Makes a ton of sense.
I have finally gotten in to mixing my own dye & shellacs all with the same dissolving medium, I am finding more ideas and creativity where I was previously wishing for options above and beyond the basic finish choices.

Cheers.

Greg

[Steve Schoene]

I think there are some problems with your schedule, so I'll suggest some changes.

The dye should be the first step on bare wood, it may not take, or will take unevenly, if applied over the pore filler which also acts as a sealer. I like a two step dye process for mahogany. I start with a lemon yellow water mixed aniline dye. It will look awful--and if anything worse after you seal it with a light cut of shellac--say 1 lb. cut, though some experimentation is needed. Then I dye again using a brown mahogany dye, also water mixed. The effect of this will be to create golden highlights in the denser parts of the wood where the shellac wash coat sealed more effectively. This two step process takes a bit of experimentation to get both the dye strengths and the wash coat right. Make sure you use a large enough sample to really see whether you like the effect of the enhanced figure that this method provides.

Use an other shellac sealer over the dye since you don't want the tint in the pore filler to color the base wood. Again pretty light cut. Too much sealing under pore filler will give adhesion problems.

I like oil based pore filler since the water based dries so quickly that you end up having to sand most of the excess off rather than scraping most of it off and then wiping of almost all of the rest with coarse cloth. I tint it a shade darker than the base color from the dye so that it adds depth. Let oil based cure fully before sealing or top coating. I like a week in warm conditions.

The Seal A Cell, which is a oil/varnish mix, isn't appropriate over wood that has already been sealed, so I'd eliminate it. You can use shellac to seal the pore filler before applying glaze or you can thin your varnish (Arm R Seal).

As far as BriWax goes, in your case you should be sure to use BriWax 2000, since the toluene in the original product can damage varnishes that haven't had substantial curing time.

[Greg Cole]

Steve,
I was hoping to get your $0.02, which is much more valuable than what I'm paying for it. :D
You specifically call out water based dyes. I am guessing you go with water based so as to not have any mixing of other alcohol base "stuff" (ie shellac). For the base dye, is there any other reason to not use an alcohol base dye? The dyes that I have can be mixed either way, so just fishing for the whys as much as the hows....
If I can skip a step (ie removing the seal a cell), I'm all for one less layer that likes to catch dust as it dries slowly.

Thanks Steve!

[Jim Becker]

Greg, alcohol soluble dyes generally need to be sprayed for best results. The alcohol flashes off too quickly to get an even effect if wiped unless the object being worked is very small. Water soluble dyes can be worked by hand to even things out very nicely. And if you use alcohol soluble dyes and they try to brush shellac...you'll be picking up the dye again which can result in uneven results.

[Greg Cole]

Hey Jim.
Thanks again. Guess I owe you another $0.02 ;) No wonder it's so painless to toss a few bucks to Keith et al.
Thats exactly the hands on experience I like to gain without the hands on part..... I was very close to pushing ahead with the schedule I have in the OP but opted not to start on it yesterday afternoon and let the little dude convince me to play in the pool at the YMCA instead (maybe he was trying to give me a hint about water eh?).
No Y today, but I'll play with some water when I get home.
Steve,
Am I on the right track thinking the schedule you put up is similar in end result/appearance to the bleach & then dye that was rather popular on mahogany at one time? The lemon yellow base has gotten my wheels turning here..... and I don't think there's any smoke coming out the ears... yet.

Thanks again Jim n Steve.

[Steve Schoene]

It's not really so drastic as the bleach and then dye route, though I think that mostly applies to walnut. New walnut is darker (and often more purple) than walnut which has aged a couple of centuries. That's why makers of William & Mary furniture reproductions use the bleached walnut and dye it to the mellow orange/brown of old walnut.

Modern mahogany is much lighter in color than the Cuban or Dominican mahogany used by 18th. century cabinet makers. (It's also lighter in weight.) But too light is much easier to correct with dye and stain. But you still want to end up just a little lighter and just a little more yellow than the pieces you might see in a museum since the mahogany will darken to a reddish brown over time. The yellow just has a subtle effect in the end, just a little extra amber gleam, though it may look bad before you tone it down with brown mahogany dye, and then a reddish brown tinted pigment in the pore filler.

[Greg Cole]

Steve,
The bleach n dye on mahogany is a finish I've seen quite a bit, but never knew what it really was 'til I read it recently. Anywho... I am intrigued enough about the yellow to give it a try on another sample now that I think about it and read your last offering. Have to admit the first pitch of "it will look awful" didn't sell me on the idea....:rolleyes: Just another sample or 3.
Also my linear thinking wasn't making sense of bleaching & dye application on naturally attractive species... but once again I'm getting it now.

Can't say thanks enough.