The Need for a full Cyclone System

[Don L Johnson]

My wife asked me a fair question. "If you just go out into the shop a couple hours a day, do you really need to have a supper dooper dust collection system? Aren't the good ones just for commercial use?"

Well, I've gotten caught up in all of the DC talk and have grandios plans...should I pursue those plans, or is my wife right? I'm out in the shop making dust about 10 hours a week on average.

[George Morris]

well you could say the same about a saw stop ,only for production shops or if you use it 1 hour a week and loose a finger who needs it more?
You only get two lungs ! also if your shop is in the basement or garage the whole family may breath the dust also. It sure is a slippery slope !! Just may thoughts!! George

[Rob Will]

Hi Don,
I think a DC system is worth installing for speed, saftey and convenience.
Perhaps one way to look at this is that your shop time is limited and you don't have an employee designated to go around and clean up.......Now all of a sudden you have even less time. A DC can make your shop a better place to be.

Unfortunately, a lot of DC systems get over-engineered like they were designed to serve multiple machines 24/7. (You're right, the sky's the limit when it come to DC's). However, in a one-man shop you can have a basic cyclone with very simple piping.

You might think about Oneida's Dust Gorrilla series. I would run a 6" main pipe down the wall and a few 4" drops off of that. At the bottom of each drop you can put a "Y" so two machines can share a drop.

I would start off with the basic setup and add to it (or not) as you see fit.

Rob

[Bruce Page]

I think if I had a bigger shop that I would have a hard plumbed cyclone DC. That setup isn’t practical in my garage shop because of built in lighting fixtures, garage doors, attic access, etc. I think you are just as well off if you have good heavy felt bags or a canister setup on your roll around DC and a good JDS type air cleaner.

[David Giles]

Which power tool runs the most hours during a year? The dust collector has to be first on the list followed closely by the ROS. It is the one tool that you will always use in conjunction with most other power tools. In many cases, it's a tool that is upgraded 3-4 times. We start with a small, cheap dust collector with a bag, then we upgrade to a canister, then we add a preseparator and mess with the ductwork some more. Finally, we spend the money and buy a bigger cyclone and 5-6" ducts.

My recommendation is to buy a good cyclone with filters once you know that woodworking is a serious, long term hobby for you. Then never read another dust collection thread as long as you live!

Or you could avoid rationalizing your hobby and just threaten to buy a boat or motorcycle.

[Chuck Burns]

My wife was skeptical when UPS sent a truck out with nothing on it but the eight boxes of my Oneida 2.5 HP Super Dust Gorilla. Now that it;s installed and in use she is amazed at how clean the garage is and that there isn't any sawdust in the house (the garage is attached). It is SO SO much more pleasant to work out there and you spend virtually no time cleaning so you are much more productive.

As it has been pointed out; if any machine is on the DC is on - it runs as much as everything else combined. So in my opinion a good cyclone DC is a necessity. And if you plan and buy right you won't have to upgrade. And as someone else pointed out you won't have to read any more DC threads; which are as contentious as SawStop threads!

[Wilbur Pan]

Check your life insurance policy. Maybe she's trying to kill you. ;););););););)

[Steven Wilson]

Well if you only have sex once and awhile do you need a condom? If you generate dust you need to collect it. If you don't your lungs will. BTW a real commercial system designed to collect from multiple tools would start at 10HP and go up. Our little 2HP-5HP system are designed for small runs, to small tools, running one tool at a time.

Of course if you open up your garage doors, run a large exhaust fan, and wear a respirator then you don't really need a great DC. A chip collector will work just fine. I don't like doing that when it's 3F outside like today.

[John-Paul Murphy]

Hi Don
You really did not give many details about your needs so it is difficult to make recommendations.
I can give things to consider.
Is it intended for health reasons or ease of cleanup?
Must the area be heated and or cooled?
How much do you have to spend?
How much dust do you make? A hand saw and hand plane make a lot less dust than a power sander…
It is a known fact that wood workers have a higher instance of lung cancer than the general population. Is that because more wood workers smoke or because we breathe more sawdust???
There are many options available. Once the application and needs are determined the best equipment can be selected.

I personally question the logic of sucking the dust up pumping it through a bag that is released right back into the room I am in. You just built a recycler that insures that the fine dust particles stay airborne. So if you go cheap make sure it will work to the minimum standard you set.
I believe that in every instance of wood working some form of dust control should be used.
What ever you do make sure it is convenient enough that you will use it!!
I love these DC threads!!;)

[Mike Monroe]

In my particular case, 14 x 24 basement shop, a cyclone has made a huge difference for the amount of airborne dust. I don’t regret the purchase one iota. And I don’t spend that much time in the shop as a lot of guys do.

[Vic Damone]

Simply as a hobbyist I worked for several of my younger years in an unfiltered space. Now at the age of fifty-nine I have bronchitis which flares up with every little cold. Exactly just how much of my shop time contributed to this condition is anybody's guess.

In hindsight I wouldn't roll the dice, I'd make it a very high priority with not only dust collection but circulating dust filtration. It's a drop in the bucket of the quality of life.

DO IT!

Vic

[Al Killian]

The better the system the less time you will be cleaning up the shop. A permant system will save you time as you do not need to move it around and it will pull more air, which catches more fine dust. Health issues already coverd. My system will be a system with all the machine hooked up and will have the power needed to do it. What are you using now for dc?

[Prashun Patel]

I believe you do need a dust collector.

However, the 10-hr a week woodworker (like myself) might not need a cyclone. A cyclone's main benefit is that it keeps the filters clean.

But, with a conventional dust collector, if yr willing to do the legwork of pounding and cleaning filters when they get clogged, they can be good substitutes for cyclones.

The prob with most single-stage dc's is that they come with crappy filter bags. Notable exception: The Delta 50-760 ($300ish) comes with a 1 micron bag and gets great reviews.

As a part-time woodworker, also appreciate the mobility of the lighter dc's vis-a-vis their cyclonic counterparts.

[Jim Solomon]

I made the cyclone dust collector featured in Wood magazine a few years ago. I live in the country(yeah, the sticks) and vent it outside through a dryer type vent housing. I purchased the motor and 12" impeller blower housing on the auction site and am very pleased I went this route. I had a 1 1/2 hp Jet and to put it bluntly it was a pain with those bags. It may be the hp (2hp) or my imagination but it seems to work much better than the other one. I have a galvanized 40g garbage can for the colletor. The plan even has a add on filter and muffler if you can not vent it outside. I could have purchased one, but I am on a fixed income and try to save every penny I can, as I'm sure most do; plus I just like to make things. If you are interested in this shoot me a PM and I'll find the issue for you. You do not need any special HVAC skills as the cyclone is in 3 parts pop riveted together. Mine is going on 6 years and still works like a champ.
Jim
This is it here:
Here is the page link:http:http://woodstore.net/cycduscol.html//

[Paul Johnstone]

Well, about a year ago, I bought some tools from a guy that spent his life doing woodworking. He was selling his tools because he was on an oxygen tank.. He blamed the dust. No way to know for sure, but tell your wife that story.. Does she want to risk the same thing happening to you?

It was a sad day to see him have to give up his hobby and passion (he taught classes). Nice guy to talk to. He really wasn't that old either, just in his 50's..

Tell her that you're willing to put off retirement a few more months to pay for it.. :lol: I've been playing that game all my life.

[Don L Johnson]

John-Paul,

A few answers to your questions:

- I'm thinking for health reasons mostly; I currently have a Jet 1 hp dc that picks up most of the cuttings.
- I live in South Texas, so don't need to heat the area; I have a wall a/c unit I use in the Summer. I typically keep the garage doors closed for, I hate to say, potential theft reasons; the size of the garage is about 23 x 30.
- Spend? I think I will need a 3 hp system at the min; I have a very capable friend (and an engineer) that is considering building one for himself, and I can get in on that.
- I have the following tools that make dust: table saw, radial arm saw, planer, jointer, 18" band saw, routers...table version, FMT, dovetail, and various minor stuff with a small one, Chop Saw, ROS, Spindle Sander, and a 37" Woodmaster Drum Sander; and I have a Jet Dust Scrubber I hang from the ceiling.
- I think it would be a good idea to marry up a small cyclone connection to the shop vac (similar to the Oneida one)

Hope that helps.

[Paul Johnstone]

Well, if I was fortunate enough to live in Texas, I'd keep the garage door open when I'm working. I understand being worried about theft, but I kind of doubt if an 18" bandsaw and other big tools is high on a thief's wishlist. Too big to carry. Your hand tools might be targeted...

On the other hand, I think protecting your health is well worth the potential hazard of someone seeing you woodworking.. I mean, they will hear the machines working.

Opening up a door or window and providing ventilation to the outside is one of the best things you can do for your health.

[John-Paul Murphy]

Don
A little food for thought.
You could purchase one of the lids made to fit a large metal garbage can or 55 gallon drum it is designed to act like a cyclone. And put everything outside. At least vent to the outside. If this is possible the advantages are lower noise level. If inlet air ducting to the garage is sized properly you can create a negative pressure in the work shop which will help keep the dust from migrating to the rest of the house. The system will be more efficient from a dust removal standpoint because all pressure pipe will be outside.
Sorry I did not respond sooner and can not expand on this more but must run.

[Justin Bukoski]

Don, if you can put a big honkin' blower fan in the wall that vents outside you'll probably have cleaner air than if you use a cyclone. Cyclones are awesome but is still impossible to catch all the dust on tools like the radial arm, chop saw etc. Moving the air out of the shop is the best way IMO. if you can't or don't want to work with the door open get a big vent fan and run it all the time you are in the shop and for about an hour after you leave.

[Mark Blum]

I made the cyclone dust collector featured in Wood magazine a few years ago. I live in the country(yeah, the sticks) and vent it outside through a dryer type vent housing. I purchased the motor and 12" impeller blower housing on the auction site and am very pleased I went this route. I had a 1 1/2 hp Jet and to put it bluntly it was a pain with those bags. It may be the hp (2hp) or my imagination but it seems to work much better than the other one. I have a galvanized 40g garbage can for the colletor. The plan even has a add on filter and muffler if you can not vent it outside. I could have purchased one, but I am on a fixed income and try to save every penny I can, as I'm sure most do; plus I just like to make things. If you are interested in this shoot me a PM and I'll find the issue for you. You do not need any special HVAC skills as the cyclone is in 3 parts pop riveted together. Mine is going on 6 years and still works like a champ.
Jim
This is it here:
Here is the page link:http:http://woodstore.net/cycduscol.html//
I built that exact same unit Jim, and mine is still working great also going on 6 years now. The plans are really pretty foolproof. It doesn't have the power that the big commercial units have, but it does a fine job for my basement shop.

[Jack Porter]

Mark,
Did you use the same motor and impeller conifguration as Jim? I was planning to go with a 2 HP blower/motor from Penn State Ind., any thoughts?

[Bryan Rocker]

I would go out and get the latest copy of Wood magazine, there is a great article on dust collectors and what you need to look for.

Bryan

[Mark Blum]

Mark,
Did you use the same motor and impeller conifguration as Jim? I was planning to go with a 2 HP blower/motor from Penn State Ind., any thoughts?
I believe I used the motor in the original specs, which is 1 1/2 HP from Penn State (also obtained from that auction site). I do think the 2 HP would be a better choice (as my motor is a tad underpowered) and would still work with the dimensions of the unit. IIRC from my original investigation into building it, any bigger than 2 HP and I think you have to upsize the dimensions.

[Jack Porter]

Thanks Mark,

my original plan was to use the 1.5 hp, but after looking into cfm requirements I'm going with the 2hp. and you are correct that the dims can remain the same for the 1.5 or 2 hp configurations.

Do you recall what you paid for your motor. The Penn State Ind. 2 HP horizontal mount is $380, a little steep. Any thought on a less expensive 2hp blower?

[Mark Blum]

Thanks Mark,

my original plan was to use the 1.5 hp, but after looking into cfm requirements I'm going with the 2hp. and you are correct that the dims can remain the same for the 1.5 or 2 hp configurations.

Do you recall what you paid for your motor. The Penn State Ind. 2 HP horizontal mount is $380, a little steep. Any thought on a less expensive 2hp blower?
Sorry, but I don't. I know I got a hell of a deal on mine from a guy who was selling his new motor. He had intended to build the cyclone and had the motor, but then bought a commercial cyclone instead, so he sold me the motor and filter and some parts. I've not put any thought into motors or dust solutions since completing my cyclone, so I can't be of much use in making alternate recommendations.

Actually, I just dug up my old winning big confirmation from 5+ years ago, and I got the never-used motor and other stuff for $150. :cool:

[Rod Sheridan]

Like many people, I started out in a small basement shop (townhouse), with a bag type collector.

I thought it was working great until I had a reaction to dust while scroll sawing some cedar. (I do not have an existing medical condition).

I began investigating my "dust collector" and found that it had the following airflow;

- short length of 4" straight duct 329CFM

- no duct 410 CFM

- cleaned and washed bags 440CFM

- no bags 710CFM

- just a bit shy of the 750CFM claimed by the manufacturer.

Research into the fine dust issue was just as bad, so I purchased an Oneida 1.5HP cyclone 6 years ago and the shop is amazingly clean, no fine dust settling out of the air any longer, the house stays clean, it's great.

As others have stated, the dust collector is the most important tool in the shop, buy it once, save your money, save your health.

In my opinion, the overhead dust collectors don't make much sense, if the dust is in the air, your lungs are filtering it, much better to capture it at the source with a well designed dust collection system.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Solomon]

As Mark said. The only downside to building this is finding the motor/blower. All the material you need to buy is 18 g galvanized tin and MDF. The paint I used was the hammer finish type, makes the MDF look like metal. And for a power switch I went to a local scrap yard and picked up a 3ph mag starter. for a buck. It works fine with the 220V and I did't actually need a mag starter anyway. I was lucky and found a Grainger blower with a 2hp Dayton motor from a guy that used it in his sawmill. I purchased them for $150. If you have to buy the motor/blower new it may be better to purchase the unit as one from Penn State or such. I'm still searching for my magazine, haven't forgot ya, I have been busy putting together my Pm 66 and just finished up on the Delta DJ 20. At the moment I seem to have too many pokers in the fire.
Jim

[Victor Stearns]

I built the same Wood Mag. Cyclone and used a 2hp Penn State blower unit. I have no issues with the unit. I do have the unit currently filtered. I have never had very much dust in the bottom of the filter container and feel it does a good job. Currently it is mounted on casters so I can move machine to machine. However the LOML has agreed to let me install the hard ducting. I am planning on mounting the unit outside so I can just let what little dust fly.
Just remember what we breath today may come back to haunt us! Do it right.
Victor

[Jack Porter]

Hey victor, I am currently building the wood mag cyclone and looking at the 2hp penn st blower, it sounds like it's working for you. did you get a decent deal on the blower? I can't figure how the penn statae 2hp blower is $350 when you can get a full 2hp dust collector system (grizzly G1029Zfor example) for $260.

So far the cyclone construction is going well, the biggest problem with building the cylcone is not having one while while cutting mdf in a 1 car garage shop.

[Chuck Burns]

As others have stated, the dust collector is the most important tool in the shop, buy it once, save your money, save your health.

In my opinion, the overhead dust collectors don't make much sense, if the dust is in the air, your lungs are filtering it, much better to capture it at the source with a well designed dust collection system.

Regards, Rod.

Rod,

I agree with your first statement 100%. Your long term health demands a good DC.

As to the overhead DC I'm not sure waht you are saying. By itself it is not anywhere near sufficient. But it is an excellent supplement to a good DC that captures at the source. But no matter how good the DC is it can't capture everything. I've got a Jet AFB1000 and I can tell the differnce if I forget to turn it on. There is more dust that settles on things. It has a timer and I just let it run for 4 hours after I'm done. It keeps everything much cleaner. The good thing about the overhead units is that they are relatively inexpensive. The 200-300 they cost is money well spend. Strangley enough it seems to make my HOTDAWG heater work better by circulating the air in the shop!

[George Symula]

I've downloaded the Wood plans for the cyclone but it's not clear to me how I mount the motor and blower. I currently have a Delta 50-850 DC that I could take apart or I could use a brand new Delta 1 1/2 HP that's still in it's crate. Where can I get the "blower" portion if I use the spare motor or...how do I go about turning the 50-850 into a cyclone? Any an all help greatly appreciated as I'm pretty much a neophyte in DC.

Geo

[Mike Heidrick]

how do I go about turning the 50-850 into a cyclone? Any an all help greatly appreciated as I'm pretty much a neophyte in DC.

It's fairly easy really. Takes about two weeks or so. You will need a digital camera, a computer, some plastic, and a phone and will need probably one day of vacation.

1. Take pictures of the 850
2. Host the pictures on photobucket
3. Place a free ad on a local craigslist
4. Grab the phone
5. Call one of Oneida/Grizzly/ClearVue/JDS and use the plastic
6. Wait the two weeks (work hard one way or another and make the $$$ to pay off the plastic).
7. Take a day off work and receive the cyclone.

One popular variation of this project is to use the 850 until the Oneida machine arrives and then list it on CL.

This way you do not have a rigged up setup pumping more dust into your shop than into the collection unit (that is probably what I would do).

;) Hope you see the humor. Good luck if you DIY!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Chuck, thanks for the comments.

My point wasn't that overhead filter units were useles, simply that it's the wrong approach to rely on them as opposed to capturing the dust at the source.

I've found that even tools such as random orbital sanders can be modified to connect to a DC system very effectively, and when sanding pieces smaller than the ROS, using both an extraction hose for the tool and a dust hood or table captures the remainder.

It's better to prevent it from entering the shop air, than trying to remove it after it's in the air, and we are breathing it.

Regards, Rod.

[Mark Blum]

I've downloaded the Wood plans for the cyclone but it's not clear to me how I mount the motor and blower. I currently have a Delta 50-850 DC that I could take apart or I could use a brand new Delta 1 1/2 HP that's still in it's crate. Where can I get the "blower" portion if I use the spare motor or...how do I go about turning the 50-850 into a cyclone? Any an all help greatly appreciated as I'm pretty much a neophyte in DC.

Geo
I'm not really sure what problem you are having. I don't have the 50-850, but as near as I can tell this is the motor for it:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/811NDF7V1SL._AA280_.gif

It seems to me like a fairly common motor configuration. You should be able to unmount that motor/blower, remove the intake flange and use it exactly as the one in the cyclone plans.

[Bill Jepson]

Something else to mention is that some tools have some DC built in. More manufacturers are making dust collection a priority. My wife must be expecting some major project work from me in future, but she agreed and we bought a Festool sander vacuum combo. Over-priced yes, but otherwise a great tool. The vac works well with several of my other tools as well. I am very impressed with the DC of the Festool. There is no visable dust in almost all operations. The Rotex mode really cuts well too. I'm sure that wearing a respirator to eliminate fine dust is still advisable, but the tool does work as advertized. The point here isn't a tool gloat, but the fact that the vacuum has cleaned up several of my other tools as well. Using my PC 1/4 sheet sander is tremendously improved when hooked up to the vac. Probably 60-70% less dust with that tool. Thinking that I was breathing that excess when not using any form of dust collection has made me a convert. Clear-vue or Onieda will be getting an order soon.
Bill

[Mike Heidrick]

Bill, did you use the PC with a shop vac before getting the festool vac?

[Bill Jepson]

Bill, did you use the PC with a shop vac before getting the festool vac?

Yes Mike,
I have always used a shop vac with my PC 1/4 sheet and the Bosch ROS.
The dust removed using the Festool vac is 100% better, and to tell the truth I'm not even sure why! (Both are 8 hole sanders. The PC comes with one of those pinned fixtures that punch the holes for you.) And I do regularly change the filter in the shop vac as well, so it is working efficiently. (Got an extra sitting on the shelf in case MJ wet vacs the floor when I'm not there!)
One of the things I like about the dedicated vac is that it's tons quieter than the old sears shop vac. When using the Festool sander the tool-on-surface noise is louder than the vac. This encourages me to use it more too. The Fein is supposed to be an excellent vacuum as well. I'm not sure which is more expensive. I'm no Festool addict, but I do like these items.
The point here isn't to hijack the thread, but to mention there are ways to improve the point of contact dust collection. This is NOT saying that you shouldn't consider a proper DC. This is intended to improve the collection of fine dust. Helping the aircleaner or DC. I don't have a particle counter but I can tell the shop is cleaner using these tools. I really like my Bosch 5" ROS too so there had to be a pretty big difference for me to say anything was/is better.
Bill

[Justin Grow]

I made the cyclone dust collector featured in Wood magazine a few years ago. I live in the country(yeah, the sticks) and vent it outside through a dryer type vent housing. I purchased the motor and 12" impeller blower housing on the auction site and am very pleased I went this route. I had a 1 1/2 hp Jet and to put it bluntly it was a pain with those bags. It may be the hp (2hp) or my imagination but it seems to work much better than the other one. I have a galvanized 40g garbage can for the colletor. The plan even has a add on filter and muffler if you can not vent it outside. I could have purchased one, but I am on a fixed income and try to save every penny I can, as I'm sure most do; plus I just like to make things. If you are interested in this shoot me a PM and I'll find the issue for you. You do not need any special HVAC skills as the cyclone is in 3 parts pop riveted together. Mine is going on 6 years and still works like a champ.
Jim
This is it here:
Here is the page link:http:http://woodstore.net/cycduscol.html//

I reccomend this cyclone as well. 30 years ago my mother opened her picture frame shop. Its turned into a large shop, doing LOTS of commercial work. For years, she had no dust collector. Then, sometime in the late 80s, she picked up a 5hp dual bag collector. It helped, but the bags were a pain. Also, the effeciency drops very quickly as the bags fill with the super fine dust that the dual 12" blades kick out. When I came to the business, I tired quickly with changing the bags. I researched a bit and decided a cyclone was the ticket. Being on a budget, I decided to try and build my own. I followed the woodstore plans, using the bag collector we already had as our blower source and final filter. In 5 years of day in and day out use, I've only cleaned the bags twice. Even still, there was so little in there that I probably could have gone another year between cleanouts. Cyclones are SOOO good if sized properly.

[Jim Andrew]

I don't understand you guys dropping from 6" to 4" at your machines. Do the machines just have 4" chutes? It is better to go 6" the whole way as you get the good out of your dust system. Install gates and open and close them as needed. My woodmaster came with only a 4" opening, I just took a 6" pipe and a marker and cut it out and tacked it on with a arc welder, caulked it and hooked up the dust collector. The book from woodmaster said to wear a dust mask when operating the machine even with dust system operating, I called them and asked if they had tried using a 6" pipe, as it gets rid of the dust. No they had not tried that.