Shop noise

[Joe Chritz]

I temporarily liberated a digital sound meter from work and did some quick checking in the shop.

Using the 85 dB as danger level I determined that almost everything in the shop is above that level. Some very much above 85dB.

I don't have the ducts hooked up to the planer or drum sander yet but so far the levels are.....

DC running - 78 dB (+/-)
T/S while ripping plywood - 103dB
Ridgid 6" ROS while sanding - 101 dB
SCMS while cutting - 109 dB
15" stationary planer (G0453) running - 89 dB
Ridgid 13" lunchbox planer running - 101 dB.

I didn't check the jointer without the DC running (it is under the DC level) with the Shelix. I wish I would have tested it before installing the shelix since it is much quieter now.

I am seriously considering getting some electric in ear plugs.

Once I get the duct's hooked up I will post back with the noise levels of the two planers and the drum sander.

Sound intensity doubles with every 3dB which also cuts the time of exposure in half. It would be unusual to be exposed to a couple hours of constant cutting with a SCMS but a few hours on a sander isn't anything unusual.

Joe

[glenn bradley]

I use Pelton earphones. They drop everything by 29db. I can hear myself breathing while using the tablesaw. Work well with glasses too. About $20.

[Chris Padilla]

Howard Leight ear protection is what I have.

http://www.ontargetsportsonline.com/Shooting_Accs/Eye_Ear/Howard_Leight/HowardLeight.asp

Good prices here, good service.

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks Joe. That's a nice reference you provided.

I always have ear plugs in when working with the machines. I'll double them up ( put ear muffs on additionally) when I'm using the planer.

[Charles Wiggins]

Joe,

I use a set of 'reusable' plugs similar to these (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=84944-000000429-90537-10000&lpage=none). They're lightweight, and cut the high pitched whines that do most of the damage, but I can still hear the radio and most other noises - like when the machine doesn't sound right. Plus, when I remove them I can rest them around my neck until I'm ready to make more noise. My only complaint is that I wear them around the back of my head and sometimes the plastic bar rubs my collar and they transfer that noise into my ears just like the stethoscope - but that's minor.

[Larry Fox]

Nice reference. Just curious, did you happen to test a router or shop vac. Those two are the ones that get to me the most for some reason. Must be the pitch.

[Joe Chritz]

I was actually thinking about the in ear electronics but they all seem to only kill compression noise (around 105-110) and are really only good for what they are designed for. That being amplifying existing sounds and shutting off gunfire. I know someone who used the extensively in the military and they were great for daily wear.

I have a couple routers and two shop vacs, I will run them and get some readings.

What was interesting about the dust collection is that the noise is all from the air in the pipes and the filter. The cyclone is in the adjacent room.

Joe

[Don Abele]

Joe, back in 2004 I posted a similar test:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=9097

My results were:

Jet DC-1100 dust collector: 82 dB
Jet JTAS-10XL 10" table saw: 84 dB
Jet JJ6CS 6" jointer: 88 dB
Jet JWBS14 14" bandsaw: 90 dB
IR SS3L3 compressor: 92 dB, goes down to 84 dB at 6 feet.
Ridgid 13" planer: 104 dB
Excel 10" miter saw: 105 dB
Craftsman 5 gallon shop-vac: 123 dB

Pretty similar to your results. Please note, all of mine were taken with the machine running, under no load.

What amazed me the most is the 5 gallon shop-vac. People use these things all the time in their house around children. :eek: At that level double hearing protection (ear plugs and ear muffs) is required. My military training has me wearing eye/ear protection at all times. But prior to this testing I never wore anything while using the shop-vac. I changed that VERY quickly after the test. I have since upgraded to a Ridgid shop vac with a muffler on it. I wear hearing protection when using it, but haven't tested it yet. I have some other new tools so should probably test them as well. I'll post an update when I do.

Be well,

Doc

[Matt Meiser]

Wow--very suprising. I wouldn't be suprised to see the sound level on the planer jump significantly with the DC hooked to it. There seems to be something about pulling all that air past the spinning cutterhead that really makes them scream.

Honestly I usually only wear hearing protection when using the planer and router, but it looks like I should really reconsider. I use a pair of ear muffs intended for shooting which are comfortable and easy to use. I think they were about $30 at Cabelas. I'm not a big fan of ear plugs. I need to wear them frequently for work when I visit manufacturing facilities and find that they are much more sensitive to how you put them in, when you take them out you need to put them somewhere, they get dirty, etc. One of the other nice things about ear muffs is that when I wear them when I'm on the tractor mowing, I can wear a pair of ear bud headphones under them and listen to my iPod.

[Don Abele]

OK, ran out to the shop and just started testing everything. Here's a pretty comprehensive list of my noise makers and where they faired (sorted by level). I didn't retest the ones from my original post.


Skil 14.4v Cordless Drill: 68 dB
Milwaukee 18v Cordless Drill: 71 dB
Dewalt 18v Cordless Drill: 73 dB
Delta Hollow Chisel Mortiser: 74 dB
Jet 22/44 Drum Sander: 75 dB
Ridgid OSS/Belt Sander: 76 dB/78 dB
Jet DC-1100 Dust Collector: 82 dB
Jet JTAS-10XL 10" Table Saw: 84 dB
Ridgid 5HP/13Gallon Shop Vac: 84 dB (91 without muffler)
Porter Cable Narrow-Crown Stapler (pneumatic): 85 dB
Porter Cable Upholstry Stapler (pneumatic): 86 dB
Jet JJ6CS 6" Jointer: 88 dB
Porter Cable Brad Nailer (pneumatic): 89 dB
Jet JWBS14 14" Bandsaw: 90 dB
ShopFox Moulder: 92 dB
IR SS3L3 Compressor: 92 dB, goes down to 84 dB at 6 feet.
Craftsman 113.29461 (1969) 10" Radial Arm Saw: 92 dB
Bosch 4212L Compound Miter Saw: 100 dB
Porter Cable Finish Nailer (pneumatic): 101 dB
Craftsman Hand Held Belt Sander: 101 dB
Milwaukee Jigsaw: 101 dB
Porter Cable 343 Random Orbit Sander: 102 dB
Milwaukee Sawzall: 103 dB
Ridgid 13" Planer: 104 dB
Dewalt Bisquit Jointer: 105 dB
Hitachi M12V (in router table): 105 dB
Porter Cable 690 Router: 110 dB
Porter Cable 7518 Router: 113 dB
Craftsman 7 1/4 Circular Saw: 118 dB
Craftsman 5 Gallon Shop-Vac: 123 dB
Porter Cable Framing Nailer (pneumatic): 125 dB


Check out the levels of the hand-held tools that many of us often use without even thinking of. :eek:

Again, all of these measurements were taken from the "normal operating" position/distance with the meter held at ear level. None of the machines were under load and I allowed them all to run for about 30 seconds. For the pnuematic nailers I was firing the largest staple/nail they can hold into a 2x4.

Be well,

Doc

[Bruce Page]

Don, I’d be curious what the noise level of typical household vacuum is. We have a Dyson and while it’s the best vacuum we’ve ever had, it ain’t quiet. I always put my Bose on.

[Don Abele]

Bruce, ask and ye shall receive.

Most data tables list a vacuum at 100 dB.

We have the Dyson Animal and I just tested it: 88 dB at my ear level. When I "search" the vacuum with the meter, I can get it up to 94 dB.

Be well,

Doc

[Bob Feeser]

Funny you should bring up this topic right at this time. I am in the middle of a sound cancelling earphone test. Santa Claus brought me a regular set of headphones, a nice pair of Sony's that are studio grade, but not noise cancelling. They do have large earmuffs that blocks out some of the sound.
In the audio world, everyone talks about the Bose Quiet Comfort QC2 and newer QC3's and there sound quality with the active noise cancelling feature. They cost 300 and 350.
What I just came across, and have on order, and they are in transit are a pair of Logitech Noise Cancelling Headphones. The crazy thing is that they are listed at $162.19 at Amazon, and only $39.99 at Tiger Direct.
Here are the rest of the listings from CNET.com
The following is a direct copy and paste from the CNET.com site (http://reviews.cnet.com/headphones/logitech-noise-canceling-headphones/4505-7877_7-31797806.html?tag=prod.txt.1)
Where to buy Logitech Noise Canceling Headphones
for Logitech Noise Canceling Headphones from online stores:
$39.99 - $178.99
TigerDirect.com (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tigerdirect.com%2Fapplica tions%2Fsearchtools%2Fitem-details.asp%3FEdpNo%3D2456545%26Sku%3DL23-7206%26SRCCODE%3DCNETFEED%26CMP%3DOTC-CNETFEED&ltype=mlst&merId=259781&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%2439.99&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=rvwmlptprt&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900)
$39.99 (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tigerdirect.com%2Fapplica tions%2Fsearchtools%2Fitem-details.asp%3FEdpNo%3D2456545%26Sku%3DL23-7206%26SRCCODE%3DCNETFEED%26CMP%3DOTC-CNETFEED&ltype=mlst&merId=259781&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%2439.99&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=rvwmlptprt&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900) | In stock: Yes
Amazon.com (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB000MIM JIG%3Fsmid%3DA2PTR6MMOG537M%26tag%3Dcnet-ce-20%26amp%3BlinkCode%3Dasn&ltype=mlst&merId=280364&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24162.19&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=rvwmlptprt&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900)
$162.19 (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fdp%2FB000MIM JIG%3Fsmid%3DA2PTR6MMOG537M%26tag%3Dcnet-ce-20%26amp%3BlinkCode%3Dasn&ltype=mlst&merId=280364&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24162.19&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=rvwmlptprt&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900) | In stock: No
Neximaging (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D409%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E3%26k %3Deb9963f49d7b733b028e6279c1db2e3a%26url%3Dhttp%2 53A%252F%252Fwww%252Eneximaging%252Ecom%252Fproduc t%252Easp%253Fid%253D47854&ltype=mlst&merId=310066&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24178.99&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900)
$178.99 (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D409%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E3%26k %3Deb9963f49d7b733b028e6279c1db2e3a%26url%3Dhttp%2 53A%252F%252Fwww%252Eneximaging%252Ecom%252Fproduc t%252Easp%253Fid%253D47854&ltype=mlst&merId=310066&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24178.99&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900) | In stock: Yes
Alwayslowest.com (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D684%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E3%26k %3Dfe96868a2a47946dab60e99833953703%26url%3Dhttp%2 53A%252F%252Fwww%252Ealwayslowest%252Ecom%252Fal%2 52Findex%252Ecfm%253Ffuseaction%253Dshop%252EdspSp ecs%2526part%253D1522556&ltype=mlst&merId=6258451&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24149.11&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900)
$149.11 (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D684%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E3%26k %3Dfe96868a2a47946dab60e99833953703%26url%3Dhttp%2 53A%252F%252Fwww%252Ealwayslowest%252Ecom%252Fal%2 52Findex%252Ecfm%253Ffuseaction%253Dshop%252EdspSp ecs%2526part%253D1522556&ltype=mlst&merId=6258451&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24149.11&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900) | In stock: Yes
Colamco (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D6183%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E2%26 k%3D520ac5431dab45e25bbc67abbc8d62b3%26url%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fwww%252Ecolamco%252Ecom%252Fstore%25 2Fproduct%252Fdetail%252Easpx%253Fproduct%253D5193 97%2526Source%253DPG&ltype=mlst&merId=6264583&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24159.26&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900)
$159.26 (http://dw.com.com/redir?astid=2&destUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcnet.pgpartner.com%2Frd.php%3 Fr%3D6183%26m%3D16193457%26q%3Dn%26pg%3D%7E%7E2%26 k%3D520ac5431dab45e25bbc67abbc8d62b3%26url%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fwww%252Ecolamco%252Ecom%252Fstore%25 2Fproduct%252Fdetail%252Easpx%253Fproduct%253D5193 97%2526Source%253DPG&ltype=mlst&merId=6264583&mfgId=275423&oid=4505-7877_7-31797806&ontid=7877&pg=&pId=31797806&prc=%24159.26&sorder=&stype=&tag=lst&ttag=pgrabber&lop=online&edId=3&siteid=7&channelid=8900) | In stock: Yes
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/sc/31797806-2-440-overview-1.gif
Check out the top price at TigerDirect. I just ordered a set. I called TD and asked them if these are refurbs, returns, seconds etc, and they said no, we bought these in bulk and have a lot of them, and they are covered by the full factory warranty, in factory sealed boxes brand new. I know from computer sales, sometimes a large company, or distributor goes belly up, and they then auction off their stock to liquidate for the creditors, and don't care what they get for them, oftentimes way under normal cost.
Check the factory part number, they are the same on all of them. 980409-0403
Ok now onto woodworking. I know there may be some who are concerned about possibly not hearing something while it is running. I will let you know. From what I read, they say they block differing percentages of sound, ranging from around 80 percent, down to less than that for people's voices. Low rumbles get blocked out more than voice levels.
I was scouring Amazon for a cheap set of ear muff headphones to listen to my iPod while doing lawn work, trimming bushes with a gas driven loud trimmer, leaf blower, lawn mower etc., then I came across this deal. It is unbelievable at $135 off of regular selling price. I paid 39.99 plus 8 something for standard ground S&H for a total of $48.48 from Tiger Direct. You can see them by clicking on the price for them in the list above. At this price, you don't mind getting them dusty, or in the case of working outside in the summer, sweaty.
Ok the sound quality is excellent with boomy bass, and the highs and middles are not as pronounced as the $300 or $350 Bose QC's, but for 40 bucks, I bet is sounds mighty sweet.
So I thought it timely that you posted the DB levels. I have been wearing sound deadening headphones when I run my planer, but now I realize most of the shop is too noisy. Plus the tunes on the iPod will prevent me from blaring the stereo to be able to hear it, or having to miss it while running a tool. A word of caution, with the sound deadening turned on, (and you can turn the sound deadening on or off on these which is unique) and the music turned up, you may be in a total sound limiting environment.
I am sure with so many at SMC, there are others who have experience with sound cancelling headphones in the shop, I am curious to hear their advice. I will be getting mine on Tuesday, and trying them out in the shop on Wednesday.
http://images.tigerdirect.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-7206-b.JPG
http://images.tigerdirect.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-7206-c.jpg
http://images.tigerdirect.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-7206-f.jpg
http://images.tigerdirect.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-7206-g.JPG
http://images.tigerdirect.com/SkuImages/gallery/large/L23-7206-x.JPG

Here is a copy and paste from the first review at Amazon.
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-5-0._V47081849_.gif Superb heaphones, January 12, 2008
By J. Norwood (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A1E6C2BSL044EH/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp/103-4966548-5495868) (Orange County, California) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1E6C2BSL044EH/ref=cm_cr_dp_auth_rev/103-4966548-5495868?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview)
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/communities/reputation/c7y_badge_rn_1._V47060296_.gif (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=cm_rn_bdg_help/103-4966548-5495868?ie=UTF8&nodeId=14279681&pop-up=1#RN)
I just rec'd the headphones today (shipped via UPS) and they work great. They fit perfectly right out of the box. I am currently wearing them right now while I type this and listening to music (who says men can't multitask ;) ?). I will comment on them regarding both aspects - with and without audio. I first tried the headphones on while I was in my living room sitting next to my wife and father-in-law who were having a full blown conversation (about what you ask, I don't know - I couldn't hear them!) right next to me. In addition to them talking, my TV was on and the volume was set to a "normal" level. With both of these distractions in the room, the headphones cut down on the noise considerably. I'd imagine they'll work just as well at drowning out the engine noise on all the flights I'll be using them on. Just that aspect (without the audio) itself is nearly worth the $40 I paid (however, don't let the relatively low price make you think you are compromising on quality). Now, add the ability to listen to music and you have yourself one great noise canceling headset. I must admit that I am no audiophile, but audio quality of this headset is among the best I've enjoyed. I have had the headset on for well over an hour now and they are still just as comfortable as when I first put them on.

One final comment. I am excited about getting these headphones, and the possiblities they have. I am not selling anything, at least not in the literal sense. I do not stand to make anything, not a penny, even if people clicked on every link, and bought from every source. As usual I am getting excited about something that I think some others may want to get excited about also.
I am curious about what to watch out for when using noise cancelling headphones in the shop. Any suggestions?
Bruce I noticed that you have the Bose that you put on with the louder Dyson vacuum. Do you use them in the shop?

[Joe Chritz]

Looks like most of the others have been answered but the DC does increase the noise considerably.

With 10' of flex pieced together to test it the noise went from around 88 to 95 with just the DC running and hooked up. It has to be the air moving past and would make sense why the spiral heads are so much quieter. There isn't a single blade to slice the air.

My tests are not nearly scientific and just a couple feet makes a huge difference in noise. Sound drops off fast in air.

I got 100 for a 5.5 peak craftsman shop vac and 81 for a CT33E festool vac. 100 for the TS55 EQ saw.

After doing some reading last night I need to add ears to several processes that I haven't in the past.

FWIW, my shop dog CASH (Rottweiler) can bark at 101 on command without trouble. :D

Joe

[Al Killian]

Any chance of you testing the planer with a 6-8" board going thru it? I know my grizzly lunch box planer can be heard in the aparment on the second floor(shop is in the basement):eek:. My kirby vac is right around 80dB, which I wearear plugs when using.

[Bob Feeser]

I think it is interesting how changing little things can sometimes have a profound effect on sound levels. I see others speaking about hose lengths on dust collectors, or board size going through a planer. Fascinating. Just last night I had such an experience, even though it is not wood related. I have a stack on washer dryer in the bathroom closet, which backs directly up to the wall of my headboard in the adjoining room. I ran a small load, with just one garment, and the water was splashing aroud loudly, it was around 1:00 am so I did not want to hear the sound, but was tired enough I thought I would be able to sleep through it. The amazing thing that happened is when I added the laundry detergent, it immediately quieted way down. Seriously, it was radical the change. Figure that one out. Low level of water, sloshing loudly, add detergent, everything calms down, and gets very quiet. ??? Ok, back to wood, what else do you do to quiet down your tools?

[Adolf Hendriks]

Great thread, and my first time onboard of the best learning site on the web. My question to all: Anyone ever look into adding sound proofing in your work shop? Most shops build are stick buildings with added drywall sheets or wood paneling.And thus the noise of machinery bounces off all those surfaces. Do you have some experience in sound proofing or have been succesfull in reducing noise in your wood shop?

[Bob Feeser]

Great thread, and my first time onboard of the best learning site on the web. My question to all: Anyone ever look into adding sound proofing in your work shop? Most shops build are stick buildings with added drywall sheets or wood paneling.And thus the noise of machinery bounces off all those surfaces. Do you have some experience in sound proofing or have been succesfull in reducing noise in your wood shop?

I think sound proofing is an interesting consideration. For the operator, the sound level coming directly off of the machine right in front of you, considering the weaker echo levels coming off of the walls, seems like a benign consideration, although people in the adjoining rooms, or floors above would enjoy, sound deadening, insulating material in a shop. Good thought.

[Bruce Page]

Bruce I noticed that you have the Bose that you put on with the louder Dyson vacuum. Do you use them in the shop?

Bob, I bought the Bose a few years ago to use primarily on the 7 hour flights to Alaska that I have to do a couple of times a year. I tried a few other NC headphones at the time and the Bose were by far the best sounding to my ears, the most comfortable, and also the most expensive. :(
I use them in the shop for just about everything from the ROS to the TS. They are very effective. I also use them while doing yard work – usually with my iPod plugged in.
Let us know what you think of the Logitech after you’ve used them for awhile. At $48 I might get a pair.

[Don Abele]

Any chance of you testing the planer with a 6-8" board going thru it? I know my grizzly lunch box planer can be heard in the aparment on the second floor(shop is in the basement):eek:. My kirby vac is right around 80dB, which I wearear plugs when using.

I just ran a 2x8 through my planer taking 1/64, then 1/32, then 1/16 off. Each time the meter pegged at 110 dB (up 6 dB from the machine running alone).


Great thread, and my first time onboard of the best learning site on the web. My question to all: Anyone ever look into adding sound proofing in your work shop? Most shops build are stick buildings with added drywall sheets or wood paneling.And thus the noise of machinery bounces off all those surfaces. Do you have some experience in sound proofing or have been succesfull in reducing noise in your wood shop?

When I bought my house 2 1/2 years ago, the shop walls were covered with homosote. I have a 15 foot ceiling. The shop was VERY quite compared to my last shop. I added 5/8 type X drywall to the wall adjacent to the house (to meet fire code) and added plywood cabinets to the walls. I also just recently built a loft for storage which reduces the overall ceiling height to 10 feet. The loft is 2x8 rafters with 3/4 OSB on top - it is now essentially the ceiling. The shop is now MUCH louder. I wish I would have actually measured sounds levels before and after, but I really wasn't thinking about it. This increase in sound is in ambient and radiated noise. The actual level at the machines has not changed.

Be well,

Doc

[Don Abele]

I think it is interesting how changing little things can sometimes have a profound effect on sound levels. I see others speaking about hose lengths on dust collectors, or board size going through a planer. Fascinating. Just last night I had such an experience, even though it is not wood related. I have a stack on washer dryer in the bathroom closet, which backs directly up to the wall of my headboard in the adjoining room. I ran a small load, with just one garment, and the water was splashing aroud loudly, it was around 1:00 am so I did not want to hear the sound, but was tired enough I thought I would be able to sleep through it. The amazing thing that happened is when I added the laundry detergent, it immediately quieted way down. Seriously, it was radical the change. Figure that one out. Low level of water, sloshing loudly, add detergent, everything calms down, and gets very quiet. ??? Ok, back to wood, what else do you do to quiet down your tools?

Bob, the detergent made your water softer thus quieter :p

OK, seriously, it was probably because the detergent makes the water more viscous (thicker) and the bubbles act as insulation. Just my WAG.

Be well,

Doc

[Bruce Page]

Bruce, ask and ye shall receive.

Most data tables list a vacuum at 100 dB.

We have the Dyson Animal and I just tested it: 88 dB at my ear level. When I "search" the vacuum with the meter, I can get it up to 94 dB.

Be well,

Doc
Thanks Don. I think ours is the Animal also. Great vacuum.

[Eric Gustafson]

I have been using the ER6i sound isolating earbuds for a few years now. I am a avid talk radio listener. I used to listen to broadcast, but now I record programs on the computer, then download them into my mp3 player. That way am radio does not beocome overloaded with electrical noise.

These work great at reducing noise and I can continue to use my loudest tools while still listening to my programs. I have used headphones for this, but they get hot here in Tucson.

I get the earbuds on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Etymotic-Research-Isolator-Earphones-Black/dp/B000BQSGMM/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1200257229&sr=8-1

[Rob Blaustein]

Don, what kind of meter did you use? Anyone know of a good source for a not too expensive but reasonably accurate meter, if such exists (I know, I didn't say what I mean by 'not too expensive'...).

[Joe Chritz]

Don's numbers are right on with mine.

I just grabbed the first board I found which was a 3" wide QS red oak scrap.

106dB for the lunchbox.
98 dB for the Grizzly 15".

Lots of variables involved.

Joe

[Brian Kent]

Are there noise level differences with different kinds of dust collector ducts?

Which is noisier, a traditional cast iron 14" bandsaw or a welded 17"?


I hated the noise from my router table so I bought a PC 890 because of lower noise in reviews and enclosed it in an MDF box with acoustical tile lining. Much better, but I don't have a decibel meter to give a reading.

[Don Abele]

Don, what kind of meter did you use? Anyone know of a good source for a not too expensive but reasonably accurate meter, if such exists (I know, I didn't say what I mean by 'not too expensive'...).

Rob, my sound level meter is from Radio Shack (#33-2050):

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Testeq/RadioShack_33-2050/33-2050.jpg

I bought it about 6 years ago when first setting up my home theater. The reference DVDs I use (Avia and the Sound & Vision home theater setup DVDs) recommended this specific model. After I bought it, I took it to the Audiology Department at work (I'm in the Navy) and had them test it. It was about 3 dB off so they calibrated it for me. I now have a test tone generator which I can use to verify it's calibration. There are many other much more expensive (and complicated) meters out there, but this one works great for what I've used it for.

The 33-2050 has been discontinued. The replacement is the 33-450 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103668) and sells for $45.

Be well,

Doc

[Don Abele]

Are there noise level differences with different kinds of dust collector ducts?

Which is noisier, a traditional cast iron 14" bandsaw or a welded 17"?

I hated the noise from my router table so I bought a PC 890 because of lower noise in reviews and enclosed it in an MDF box with acoustical tile lining. Much better, but I don't have a decibel meter to give a reading.

Brian, I've had metal, PVC, and flexible ducts. I've not noticed a significant difference in air noise through them. When material is flowing through them, the metal was the loudest, then flexible, then PVC. The noise I've noted from my DC is primarily from the unit itself. Secondary to that is the suction noise created at the business end. This suction noise, however, is not louder than the DC or the machine itself.

As for your second question, I have a cast iron bandsaw, so that's where my numbers came from. If someone wants to give me a welded 17" BS, I'd be more than happy to test it's levels. :D

The acoustical tile is what is really lowering your noise levels with the router table. I tested more than just my two PC's and Hitachi. I have two Craftsman routers (1.5 & 2 HP) and a PC 7538, but since they all came out about the same (110-115 dB), I just listed one small, one large, and one in the table.

Be well,

Doc

[Rob Blaustein]

The replacement is the 33-450 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103668) and sells for $45.

Be well,

Doc

Thanks Don--certainly fits the bill for "not too expensive but reasonably accurate." My real motive: my MIL has hearing problems and uses this old hair dryer that I swear is louder than my router. I keep telling her it's going to make her hearing worse--now I can actually test it. Of course if I test it and it reads out at a safe level--well, I guess no one will know I tested it...

[Richard M. Wolfe]

I think the key is getting a comfortable pair (that works well, of course) and keeping them on. Critical to hearing protection are muffling the really loud noises, but I wonder about things like a dust collector running constantly. My father was pretty much deaf in his later years from sitting for hours on a tractor. Also I had a neighbor in pretty much the same shape and he was a truck driver. It would seem constant lower level noise can be detrimental also.

There have been occasions when I left the shop and went into the house I had to go back to the shop or remember to take the muffs back the next time. I forgot I had them on.

[Bob Feeser]

That is the way teenagers talk. If it is the ultimate they call it death. Weird huh. I didn't know how to approach this. I just received the Logitech headphones only minutes ago. Earlier on in this post I told you about the Logitech Noise Canelling Headphones, well they don't sound good, they sound great. Seriously. As soon as you put them on, you say WOW. Once again seriously. Santa just brought me a pair of Studio Grade Headphones made by Sony, audio engineers can't rave enough about them, they are not noise cancelling headphones though, but totally accurate sound. You can read the reviews from Amazon on the Sony's here (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDR7509HD-Professional-Headphone/dp/B000HHYZV6/ref=sr_1_42?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1200352534&sr=8-42).
Well if you didn't read my post earlier in this thread, I wanted to find a cheap pair of noise cancelling headphones for use in the shop, and outside gardening. I have a gas driven bush trimmer, leaf blower, lawn mover, etc. I came across these Logitech, going everywhere for over 160 bucks, but for some reason TiderDirect.com had them for only $39.99 plus S&H for a total of $48.88. I read the reviews and decided to give them a shot. I got them today, arriving a day early, so I popped them on, using my inexpensive iPod Shuffle for $79, and the sound clearly deserves a Wow. So much so that I went right back into TigerDirect.com and wanted to order a second pair, and guess what, they raised the price to $49.99 plus S&H so the final price is $58 now. Shucks that ruins it. I wish I knew they sounded this good, I wouldn't have cancelled my second order. The order accidentally went in twice so 2 sets were on order. I called the cancel the second set. Now I am sorry I did. I just can't stomach paying an extra 10 bucks, even though they are $180 dollar headphones. It is the principle of the thing.
So how does this translate to woodworking concerns? I went into the shop, or should I say I started to write this post, then paused, went into the shop with them, and turned on the equipment with the noise cancelling on. I could faintly hear that the tool was running, but all of the loud clamor was gone. My loudest tool a benchtop 12" planer is so loud I bought headphones from Home Depot because I knew I would be losing my hearing using that planer if I didn't. Well with the Logitech Noise Canellers on, it is a quiet whisper way in the background. All the low end clacking and banging is gone, all you hear is a slight whir. Pleasently the music makes it not even a concern. So they let just enough through for you to know without a doubt that something is running, but it cuts the uglies out. Even my quieter JDS Dust Force, you knew it was running, but only slightly so.
So in conclusion these heaphones make loud machinery go from pain to pleasure. When you lift the headphones from your ears, you hear all kinds of racket, then you let them drop back on your ears and go aaaaahhhhh.
I know this sounds like a gloat, but do yourself a favor and get a pair of these. There are all kinds of links earlier in this thread. One of them is to Tiger Direct. Hey this isn't a great as finding an old never used PM66 for cheap, but it is a good substitute. Even at the extra 10 dollar price, it will save your ears, and give you pleasure working in the shop.

[Glen Blanchard]

I've been following this thread Bob. Not that I need anymore headphones either. Besides a few dozen cheap earbuds laying about the house, I own a pair of Ultimate Ears earbuds (fairly high-end, noise isolating earbuds) and also a pair of Bose QC II's. I love them both and have been using the Ultimate Ears in the shop lately. Being a sucker for a good deal, after seeing your post here, I ordered 2 pair of the Logitechs. My wife said that she would like to have a set since they were such a good deal and I figured at $39.99, I'd just order a second pair for the heck of it. I'll give them a test run in the shop when they arrive. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Bob Feeser]

As a follow up to the headphones Logitech headphones. I did not order a second pair when I was that Tiger Direct had raised there prices by 10 bucks on there web site, but when I saw Glens post that he just ordered 2 for the 39 price, I went back into Amazon, and sure enough, they had them for 39 plus S&H still. So I ordered another pair. Even though I have a new pair of expensive Sony's, I now would like to have 2 pairs of these Logitechs because of there noise cancelling feature. One to get sweaty gardening, and dusty doing wood work, and another to wear out, and in the living room, when I am cleaned up. The Sonys are studio mix headset, more bent on completely even distribution of sound across the spectrum, but in many ways not as exciting as the Logitechs with there sub woofer like bass, and splashy highs.
I highly recommend anyone doing woodwork to get a pair of these. There noise cancelling feature can't be beat, for turning loud growls down to a whisper, let alone you are encased in an orchestra. I don't think getting extra dust in the ear canal is beneficial, although the cilia hairs in the ear are supposed to clean that out. It is another added benefit to wearing headphones though, no matter what kind you wear.
Does the sound cancelling feature harm you ears over time, since it is emmitting a low level source that actually cancels out the outside noise. I have not heard of any problems, and with Bose and most all the major manufacturers producing them, I don't think so, but I know from now on, I will not be entering the shop without a pair ready at hand.
Oh boy, Ipod, great tunes, and no more loud equipment. Yet when the equipment is off, if someone speaks to you, and you don't have the music up too loud, you can hear them clearly. Also you know the equipment is running by the faint sound while the music is even turned up. Disclaimer, Disclaimer, Disclaimer, what can I say, I just orderd another pair.

[Matt Meiser]

How is the sound quality on the Logitech headphones. I bought a new pair of earbuds for my iPod which were more comforable than the stock ones, but didn't sound as good. Then I bought a relatively expensive pair of folding headphones, which sound pretty good, but on a plane they don't drown out the noise that well. I've read good and bad reviews on the Bose (sound great, made cheaply for a lot of money) and after spending over $100 so far I'm leary of spending any more until I find something really good.

[Bob Feeser]

Matt,
I received the Logitechs, and promptly ordered another pair. The sound is great. With sound cancelling on it sounds like a soft subwoofer, with splashy highs, and plenty of middle. Just what you want. I have not heard the Bose QC's but these things are unbelievable for the money. Talking about the money, I went right back to Tiger Direct and wanted to order a other pair, and noticed they raised the price 10 bucks from last nights price. So they went up to 49 plus S&H. Then I received a note that they were 39 still on Amazon, so I went in there and sure enough they still are, even though they are distributed through TIgerDirect anyhow. So I ordered another pair. They really sound great. For woodshop use, the are great as well. I went down into the shop, turned on my noisy as heck 12" Sears planer, with the noise canceling on, it is a quiet whisper in the background.
If you are interested in buying them, just go directly to Amazon, do a search for Logitech Noise Canceling Headphones, and they are listed at I think $39.97 and you will recognize them, because they say on the top of the listing, "you save $235" so you can't miss them. These are $200 headphones in the way they sound, and perform.
I bought a second one because I want a nice pair to wear out or for around the house when I am clean, and another pair for gardening and woodwork to get dusty.
I think I would be doing a disservice not to tell others about these headphones, considering they will result in saving your hearing. I will never do any more woodworking without sound protection, and these give you the added joy of music, while still leaving a trace, enough of the sound of the machine to let you know it is running. It is a faint sound in the background. I did not provide a link in here, and told you to do an Amazon search, because when I get super excited about something, and if I had an excuse to buy a third pair I would, then it sounds like I am selling, and I am not making anything on this at all. Just sharing something that I know will soon go back to the $160 apiece price that the rest of the web has them for, then others will look back and say, I should have bought a pair of them. For this price they are nuts.
I have not heard the Bose QC's, but my brother was just at the mall yesterday hearing them at an Apple store, and he heard these Logitechs the next night (tonight) and he said they are on a par with the Bose. I feel reasonably sure the Bose has a better sound, although I can't imagine it, because some much fan fare has been provided on the Bose as the sound leader. All of those critics can't be all wrong. Hey if you think you are buying a cheap set of noise canclellers for 40 something, you will be pleasantly surprised. I was shocked.



How is the sound quality on the Logitech headphones. I bought a new pair of earbuds for my iPod which were more comforable than the stock ones, but didn't sound as good. Then I bought a relatively expensive pair of folding headphones, which sound pretty good, but on a plane they don't drown out the noise that well. I've read good and bad reviews on the Bose (sound great, made cheaply for a lot of money) and after spending over $100 so far I'm leary of spending any more until I find something really good.

[Roger Wilson]

A couple of questions:

--one of the Amazon reviews said that without music the Logictech headphones themselves make a very loud noise. Have you found this to be true ?

--have you worn the headphones when driving ? I've found the general highway road noise in a car to be as problematic as the noise in an airplane. I'd like to be able to drive safely (hear horns etc.) but without the road noise.

Thanks

[Al Willits]

I'm a little cautious of the units that do anything but reduce dB's, you'd be supprised how easy it is to get the headphone units high enough in volume to do harm.
Not to fond of Bose either, but whatever floats your boat.

For extended runs like with the planer or joiner I'll use the foam ear plugs rated at 31 dB reduction, for day to day stuff I have a couple of pair of muffs from shooting I wear, they are electronic but I just leave them off, reduction is rated at 27db's.

Damage from loud noises is afaik irreversable, be careful.

Al

[Nate Folco]

How do these compare to the disposable foam ear plugs in quieting shop tools?

[Bob Feeser]

Ok, there it is, you have to wonder how they can sell headphones that are almost 200 street price, and list for 267 and only sell them for 39 dollars, here is a review posted on the Tiger Direct Site.

REVIEW BY: Glenn Reviewed Jan 14, 2008http://images.tigerdirect.com/item-details/gstar10.gifBe aware of one thing, in case you didn't notice the contains lead sticker on the back of the box, After calling Logitech tech support, which was easy by the way, they said there was a concern for lead content in the headband steel, they are offering a refund for those who dont want to take the chance with it, but said under normal use there should be no concern, this is a discontinued model, they still stand by the 2 year warranty. They do sound really good, I use them in our manufacturing plant next to some loud machinery and they are quite impressive.

So there you go. If you notice the headband that "contains" the lead is the inner steel band, that the padding and plastic housing surround, and the surface is only exposed if you extend the ear pieces. I don't plan on grinding up my headphones and sprinkling them on my cereal, at least not in my current frame of mind. :) If I lose a big Super Bowl bet, well then maybe. :) I have lead in my pencils, in the solder joints in the plumbing from my circa 1955 home, that I can get concerned about, so I use a Brita pitcher to filter my drinking and cooking water, but not some lead as part of the contents in my headphones.
Tiger Direct or Amazon, or any of the other large venues selling these do not mention anything in there ads about lead content. I guess they figure the little sticker on the box is all the warning that is required, and once you hear them, you are going to be saying, lead, what lead?

Anyhow, so you have to decide, and they will take them back if you do not like it at Tiger Direct. Myself personally, I am trying to find an excuse to order a third pair. After reading the review, I picked up the box, and read the little sticker at the very bottom on the back of the box, and it says, "California Proposition 65 Warning. This product contains lead, a chemical known in the State of Ca. to cause cancer, birth defects, and other reproductive harm"

You make up your own mind about these, but below I am, going to give you my opinion.

So now I know why they would sell a pair of headphones that sound like a high end audio store, and have noise canceling, and as the reviewer stated he works near loud machinery and is impressed, and sell them for only $39 plus shipping when they normally sell for street price of over 160 dollars. So when TIger Direct said that they are brand new, full 2 year factory warranty, no refurbs, not returns, not defects, I was curious. So every other source on the web is still getting 160 plus for them, even with a lead sticker. When I received the box, it had the factory clear seal on the box, so these were never opened, factory fresh new.

In conclusion; I love great sound. I love protecting my ears while listening to a high end quality symphony while doing woodwork, I love saving, as Amazon puts it $235 dollars off of manufacturers suggested list. My ears deserve preserving, while I don't see how smooth metal internal straps, sliding over plastic, that have lead content in the metal, are going to ever even create lead dust, let alone ingest it.
Let's do a little satire. I think I am going to go downstairs and throw out all of the lead sinkers that me and Dad used when we went fishing in my youth. I might rub one of those suckers with my fingers, and lose my mind.:eek::o:rolleyes: Oh I forgot the magnets, in the speaker in the house, that vibrate, or the weights on the rims to balance the tires on my car.
One last thing is that I extended the ear pieces, to expose an inch of headband steel, and tried to scratch it with a fingernail and it feels like solid steel. You know if something is solid lead, it dents with a fingernail, if it has some small percentage of lead as a composite, it is hard as a rock. These appear to be steel to me.
You make up your own mind, I am anxiously anticipating my second pair arriving by the end of the week, or the beginning of next week. My ears are thanking me already.

[Steve Leverich]

Bob, "there was a concern for lead content in the headband steel" - these phones are obviously optimised for Heavy Metal :D Steve

(Oh, and one of the reasons Bose charges so much for theirs is the amount they have to pay their ad people for all those words like "amazing, fantastic, mind-boggling, etc" instead of actual SPECIFICATIONS. My daughter was looking at the Bose so I (being a recording engineer among other things) went looking for specs. Not a single technical word in ANY of their literature, including the actual user manual. Thanks, but NO thanks... Steve

[Mike Goetzke]

Bob - I ordered a set of the Logitech headphones yesterday and received them today. This is my first experience w/ noise canceling headphones. First, they do cut a lot of noise w/o the electronic turned on. With them turned on you can notice it complete eliminates the low freq. background hum. I live in a tri-level style house and was upstairs two levels above the family room. My wife was on the phone and the TV was on. When I activated the phones it knocked out the low tones but not the music/voices on the TV or my wife talking on the phone. Since they seem to cut the low freq. well it made the TV and my wife talking more noticeable. I thought these things would have silenced the TV and my wife:eek:. I next went into the garage/shop. Turned on the drill press, DC, and shop vac. They do cut the noise down but in no way silence it. I also turned on the TV in the shop and the voices are easy to hear. I have some Shure E2C's and they seem to cut the background noise about the same as these but they are a pain to put in and take out.

Now if someone talks to you or if the TV is on do yours cut those sounds significantly?


I did hook up my MP3 player and the sound was great with the NC turned on.

(maybe mine don't have enough lead in them)

Thanks,

Mike

[Bob Feeser]

Mike,
With sound deadening on, at zero music levels on in the headset you can clearly hear TV and voices, although slightly reduced. With music on moderately low, you don't hear any of that. In the shop, you hear a faint sound of the super loud equipment running, even with medium levels of music running. So it is safe to know the machine is running, but no longer an offensive damaging noise.
As you mentioned, noise cancelling virtually eliminates lower frequency sounds. It does not eliminate high frequency ones. Plus there is a passive noise cancelling going on, due to the fact that these are enclosed ear muffs. So even with the noise cancelling turned off, you are going to get some benefit. I do not know how they compare to noise cancelling ear muffs, that you buy at Home Depot.
With the noise cancelling turned on, and the music at only the 2 level you do not hear any low levels, and faintly hear high ones. With a loud machine, as in anything in the shop, even a quiet dust collector, you hear something, but faintly so. If you turn on the music at low levels, you will be pleasently hearing music, instead of ear endangering equipment at high sound levels.
I wanted to add that I dug up some more reviews, and at Mac World, they rated these Logitechs as fair in music quality. The Bose 301's were rated as Good and Excellent. They also said that none of the noise cancelling headphones had sound quality equivalent to those without noise cancelling, plus they are more expensive due to having to add the noise cancelling feature.
Let me put some perspective on how this whole thing got started. I had bought a pair of Studio grade headphones from Sony, for my music interests, and a studio for recording that I am putting together. Then I realized that I really needed an inexpensive pair of headphones to do gardening, and woodworking. Then I happened upon these Logitechs, and they had noise cancelling besides. That would be great for what I wanted to use them for. After reading so many reviews, some raved about how great they sounded, others said they do not sound as good as the Bose QCs at $300, or $350, for the price I thought I would give it a shot. Well when they arrived, and I put them on, I wasn't expecting much, that is what shocked me. They sounded way better than my expectations. I was thrilled. Then I decided that I wanted a clean pair, for wearing out, or for studying, with others in the room talking, and another pair for shop and gardening use, so I bought another pair, that are on order through Amazon. After the way I raved about these things, I sort of feel like I am representing them, which I do not want to do. Personal tastes vary. Some people like a lot of bass, these have plenty, others like a flatter sound, which these have if you turn off the noise cancelling, although it seems kind of shallow without the NC turned on.
A simple way to put it is to say, when you consider price, these are the best noise cancelling headphones out there. Are they really, I don't know, because I haven't tried all of the cheap ones, but from the reviews, the cheapies don't sound that hot, and some people rave about the way the Logitechs sound, and I am one of them, especially considering price. You have to be your own judge.
I think this post is especially relevant when you consider how many fellow woodworkers are working on loud machinery without any protection. These are a very nice alternative.

[Bob Feeser]

Roger Wilson, A couple of questions:

--one of the Amazon reviews said that without music the Logictech headphones themselves make a very loud noise. Have you found this to be true ?
Ans: He must have a defective pair. The Mac World review gave them an excellent on both hiss levels, which these have none, and many others do have, and on sound pressure, which noise cancelling creates, but these do so with an excellent rating, as in not a problem

--have you worn the headphones when driving ? I've found the general highway road noise in a car to be as problematic as the noise in an airplane. I'd like to be able to drive safely (hear horns etc.) but without the road noise.
Ans: I believe it is against the law to wear headphones while driving for safetys sake. Please see the thread I just posted about which types of sounds it blocks, and which it doesn't.

[Bob Feeser]

How do these compare to the disposable foam ear plugs in quieting shop tools?

I don't think you can do an apples with apples, and oranges with oranges comparison between the two. I haven't really done a comparison between them, and since I do not have the foam earplugs presently, I can not run a test. I have used the foam plugs in the past though, and it enabled me to sleep through a snoring environment when away at the shore on weekends in a shared beach house.
Actually if you can hear some high sounds coming through with the foam, although muffled, and also hear some lower sounds although muffled with the foam, you do not have the equivalent sound suppression of these headphones.
It is important to differentiate between absolute sound suppression which these are not, although they come so close on lower frequencies, you could classify them as that, and a combined sound suppression, that is so effective, that you can turn on low level, as in level 2 out of ten in music, and enjoy it without competing with background noise, even when it is at high levels.
I am starting to learn a lot more about hearing damage in my journeys through the web in the last day or two. Our ears are a lot more sensitive to permanent damage then I have realized. A sudden or abrupt sound like a nearby blast, can ruin your ears for a lifetime in an instant, and it drops off from there. A government body stated that above 85 db we are experiencing hearing damage, the closer to 85 it is the longer it requires for the damage to accumulate, at above 100, into the 110 range, it is appreciable over much shorter exposure. So everyone should do something, even if it is foam inserts, or whatever is best. I am by no means a hearing, headphone or sound expert, but I am always fascinated with learning.

[Joe Chritz]

Good post Bob.

I started looking at hearing damage and sound when I started shooting a lot many years ago now. I have opted for electronic for ease and convienence, although there are better ways for total protection.

For 99% of the time any protection will be adequate for a shop. However, if you want to wear them all the time then things like comfort and ability to hear non-damaging sounds is very important.

In fact, hearing non-damaging sounds is why I went electronic for shooting.

Joe

[Al Willits]

Nate, of all the noise reduction units that I've looked at none of them reduce dB as much as the good foam ones, they all should have a rating on them and the highest I've found is 31dB and that was the foam type.

Knowing what dB's your equipment runs at and what level is non harmful will help you decide which unit will work for you.

I suffer from tinnitus from years of playing in bands and shooting, so I lean toward the foam whenever can, especially when running the louder machinces like the jointer, router and planer.

Al

[Mike Goetzke]

Bob Feeser really did his homework on this one and gave me some great info. on NC headphones in general. Mine are doing exactly what they should be doing. My Sure E2C's are almost as effective but they are noise blocking and need to be placed deep in the ear. If you chew gum or drink something you can hear weird noises in your head with the E2C's. The Logitech's are much more comfortable than the E2C or my Peltor's. They are very light weight too. With an MP3 player connected the phones dround out almost all of the high freq. background noise. I happened to have a chance to try the Bose headphones on a trip to China. They were nice but not as comfortable as these Logitech's and I don't remember the sound being any better than the Logitech.

Great find Bob - I almost feel like buying a back-up pair like you did.

Thanks,

Mike

[Bill White]

I think it is interesting how changing little things can sometimes have a profound effect on sound levels. I see others speaking about hose lengths on dust collectors, or board size going through a planer. Fascinating. Just last night I had such an experience, even though it is not wood related. I have a stack on washer dryer in the bathroom closet, which backs directly up to the wall of my headboard in the adjoining room. I ran a small load, with just one garment, and the water was splashing aroud loudly, it was around 1:00 am so I did not want to hear the sound, but was tired enough I thought I would be able to sleep through it. The amazing thing that happened is when I added the laundry detergent, it immediately quieted way down. Seriously, it was radical the change. Figure that one out. Low level of water, sloshing loudly, add detergent, everything calms down, and gets very quiet. ??? Ok, back to wood, what else do you do to quiet down your tools?



About 6 years ago I bought the "muffler" for my Ridgid shop vac. I said, "Self, how much good can this stupid lookin' thing with a hole all the way through it do?" Well, then I put the thingy on the vac. Guess what? IT WORKED.
This thread is a valuable info base. Seems that there are more shop safety related posts goin' around this year tthan I've ever seen. Maybe we're gettin' wiser with age. What do ya think?
Bill

[Don Abele]

Bill, I thought the same thing. And if you note in my lengthy post above:


Ridgid 5HP/13Gallon Shop Vac: 84 dB (91 without muffler)

That's a 7 dB reduction!

Be well,

Doc

[Bob Feeser]

Al, Thanks for your input. Wow I am learning a lot about sound in the last couple of days. These Logitechs only have up to 22db of sound reduction, according to the box, so it is great to know that there are better alternatives. So I get what you are saying about how it works. So if you are running a 95db tool, and you have 20 db noise reduction, you are hearing 75db, or am I wrong. I too played in a band, and my Dad was an NRA instructor so I was at a shooting range with small bore 22's at a very early age. So any additional information is appreciated. Thank you. Bob


Nate, of all the noise reduction units that I've looked at none of them reduce dB as much as the good foam ones, they all should have a rating on them and the highest I've found is 31dB and that was the foam type.

Knowing what dB's your equipment runs at and what level is non harmful will help you decide which unit will work for you.

I suffer from tinnitus from years of playing in bands and shooting, so I lean toward the foam whenever can, especially when running the louder machinces like the jointer, router and planer.

Al

[michael osadchuk]

......fyi, I today bought one of the Logitech's noise-cancelling headphone sets in Canada for the same $40 (in Cdn.$) at a TigerDirect store in Markam, Ontario...... it is also available for the same price at the Cdn. version of its website....www.tigerdirect.ca

[Steve Mellott]

How well do the Logitech earphones fit over eyeglases? Thanks.

[Bob Feeser]

How well do the Logitech earphones fit over eyeglases? Thanks.

Steve,
I will be honest with you, when I first heard the question, I was tempted to be a wise guy, and say something like, I don't know it has been a long time since i wore my eyeglasses over my ears. :rolleyes: Then I stopped and looked for a photo of these headphones on Google, with someone wearing eyeglasses with them. Then I saw a lot of web pages discussing the problem of wearing headphones and glasses at the same time. So your question is more than a valid one, it is one that a lot of people are considering. It is a good thing I didn't mention anything about the ear joke.:eek: I thank you ahead of time for your good sense of humor. :o
So to seriously address your well placed question, I put the Logitechs on, and then put on the eyeglasses, and didn't even notice that the headphones were on. The ear piece, which would normally get in the way, has a soft cover, and the eyeglass, what would you call that...stems, slide right under the headphone padding without a glitch.
I have been using them for 2 days now, and using eyeglasses to read a software book I am studying, and the glasses have been going on and off regularly, without even so much as a consideration as to any incompatibilities; so much so, I didn't understand the question, when you first placed it.
I was concerned about wearing an air respirator, and shop glasses with thick, arms or whatever you call the part that parks on top of your ears, and having a problem with that. With regular eyeglasses, the kind you buy at your corner drug store for reading, have thin... here we go again, arms or whatever, and they work great.

[Brian Kent]

I really appreciate all the information, Bob and others. I ordered a pair from Amazon yesterday. This will be my first try of noise-canceling headphones, so if they are even adequate, I'll be happy.

[John Hain]

I was looking for a nice deal for a new set of NC headphones. I pulled the trigger on the Logitechs because of the price.

A couple things: I believe the noise reduction is easily 22db. I can put these things on and just hear the nice purr of a router a foot away. It's actually an enjoyable purr rather than anything I'd consider loud or even remotely uncomfortable. They work very well. Who knows, maybe they just fit my big noggin well.

Secondly, they are more comfortable than I expected. I've always been a earplug kinda guy, but these are nice.

I'd recommend these NC headphones as well.

[Steveo O'Banion]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, can you repeat the question?:D

[R. A. Mitchell]

I just came across this thread. I have a laser engraver hooked up to a DC and am trying to reduce the noise. Until I figure out how I want to configure my shop permanently, I'm running the end of the DC out a window (no bag - this thing primarily expels smoke).

Has anyone tried to build a box with insulation and baffles to reduce noise from the exhaust end?

[Lee Schierer]

I wear hearing protection most of the time when I'm running power tools.

One thing everyone needs to be aware of when measuring sound is that the sound should be measured at the operators level. Sound intensity drops inversely proportional to the square of the distance so placing the sound meter next to the cutter head on a planer would give you a louder reading than you would hear when actually operating the machine. When making sound measurements always take them at the level of the operators ear.

[Don Abele]

...One thing everyone needs to be aware of when measuring sound is that the sound should be measured at the operators level...

Lee, in the table I posted above, all the measurements I took were measured at my ear level in what I would call the normal operating position for that particular tool.

Be well,

Doc

[Greg Hines, MD]

I use AquaNot ear plugs for woodworking and for target shooting. I find that the custom earplugs protect my ears better than typical foam plugs, and I dislike earmuffs.

Doc

[Dave MacArthur]

I just went to buy some, but the Tiger link says they are no longer for sale? Does anyone have a good link to buy these logitech NC earphones Bob is raving about ;) He convinced me.

[Carl Fox]

The type of electric motor in a device has a major effect on the frequency and intensity of the noise produced.

Ever notice that devices with small motors (vacuum cleaners, SCMS, hand-held belt sanders, hair dryers etc.) tend to be loud screamers, whereas stationary devices, (TS, jointers, Dust Collectors, etc) tend to have a low pitch (almost a pleasant sound, IMHO) and are not nearly as loud?

This has to do with the type of motor used in the application. Cheap, portable devices use Universal motors. These are light, cheap, small, and put out a lot of power for their size. They also are noisy like nobodies business.

The term 'Universal' is applied to a series connected motor; one in which the same current passes through both the armature (rotor) and field (stator). The power source can be either AC or DC, hence the name universal or series universal.

Expensive, stationary devices use Induction motors. Induction motors are expensive, large, heavy, and quiet.

An induction motor (IM) is a type of AC motor where power is supplied to the rotating device by induction. An electric motor converts electrical power to mechanical power in its rotor (rotating part). There are several ways to supply power to the rotor. In a DC motor this power is supplied to the armature directly from a DC source. But in an AC motor this power is induced in the rotating device. An induction motor can be called a rotating transformer because the stator (stationary part) is essentially the primary side of the transformer and the rotor (rotating part) is the secondary side. Induction motors are widely used, especially polyphase induction motors, which are frequently used in industrial drives.

To see what I mean look at your 2.5 HP router. The whole thing smaller and lighter than just the 2 HP motor on your table saw. Yet, when you turn them on the difference in sound pressure is dramatic.

Therefore the general rule of thumb is; if you can lift it, it probably has a Universal motor and it's gonna be really loud.

This is a generalization, of course, YMMV.

[Glen Blanchard]

I just went to buy some, but the Tiger link says they are no longer for sale? Does anyone have a good link to buy these logitech NC earphones Bob is raving about ;) He convinced me.

Well, they are indeed very nice for that price. I wear them in the shop all the time. The sound from my iPod is great. I bought 2 pair and like them so much now that I would like to have some back stock. I bought mine from TigerDirect, and you are correct, they apparently no longer stock them. They are available on Amazon, but the once low price of $39.99 is now up to about $150. I am trying to watch the price a few times per week, as I would like to buy a couple more.

[Bryan Parlor]

The type of electric motor in a device has a major effect on the frequency and intensity of the noise produced.

Ever notice that devices with small motors (vacuum cleaners, SCMS, hand-held belt sanders, hair dryers etc.) tend to be loud screamers, whereas stationary devices, (TS, jointers, Dust Collectors, etc) tend to have a low pitch (almost a pleasant sound, IMHO) and are not nearly as loud?

This has to do with the type of motor used in the application. Cheap, portable devices use Universal motors. These are light, cheap, small, and put out a lot of power for their size. They also are noisy like nobodies business.

The term 'Universal' is applied to a series connected motor; one in which the same current passes through both the armature (rotor) and field (stator). The power source can be either AC or DC, hence the name universal or series universal.

Expensive, stationary devices use Induction motors. Induction motors are expensive, large, heavy, and quiet.

An induction motor (IM) is a type of AC motor where power is supplied to the rotating device by induction. An electric motor converts electrical power to mechanical power in its rotor (rotating part). There are several ways to supply power to the rotor. In a DC motor this power is supplied to the armature directly from a DC source. But in an AC motor this power is induced in the rotating device. An induction motor can be called a rotating transformer because the stator (stationary part) is essentially the primary side of the transformer and the rotor (rotating part) is the secondary side. Induction motors are widely used, especially polyphase induction motors, which are frequently used in industrial drives.

To see what I mean look at your 2.5 HP router. The whole thing smaller and lighter than just the 2 HP motor on your table saw. Yet, when you turn them on the difference in sound pressure is dramatic.

Therefore the general rule of thumb is; if you can lift it, it probably has a Universal motor and it's gonna be really loud.

This is a generalization, of course, YMMV.

Carl,
I suspect its the gearing that causes most of the noise on universal electric motors. If it has a cooling fan that could be a noise source as well.

I spinning rotor with cheap sleeve bearings should not generate much noise - bearing noise suggests rapid wear.

Bryan

[Bill Wyko]

I hate to be the Db dog but I've been it car audio for about 20 years. I've built sound systems that test as high as 176.5db. I made the mistake when I was much younger of playing systems way too loud. I now have high pitch ringing in my ears that will never go away. It makes some people go crazy. I just tell myself it's my internal turbo chargers.:o I strongly recommend protecting your ears unless you want to get internal twin turbos like mine. Once it happens it'll never go away so please be careful.

[Carl Fox]

Carl,
I suspect its the gearing that causes most of the noise on universal electric motors. If it has a cooling fan that could be a noise source as well.

I spinning rotor with cheap sleeve bearings should not generate much noise - bearing noise suggests rapid wear.

Bryan

Universal motors also have brushes which contact the communicator, which I'm sure is a major noise source. And a source of black dust as well.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/how-to-repair-major-appliances-8.jpg


Induction motors are brushless, so they are very quiet. Induction motors generally have built-in cooling fans as well so that can't be it unless the univerals use a different, noisier design. I imagine the heavier cases help as well.

http://www.geocities.com/vijayakumar777/inductionmotor/induct3.jpg