A preliminary air quality analysis of my shop

[Phil Thien]

[Note: I know dust collection and the safety of dust is a contentious topic around here. I was concerned about using a shop vac instead of a dust collector with my tools and set out to try to figure out how much of a price I may be paying by not having room to setup a larger dust collector and giant air scrubber. I do not wish to start any wars, just report my findings which I find somewhat reassuring and may be reassuring to those of you using shop vacs as well.]

Background: My shop is in my basement. I have a Ryobi BT3K, a small Inca (8-5/8" wide but short bed) jointer/planer, Inca 9-1/2" bandsaw, A Ridgid oscillating belt sander, and a router table with downdraft box. I use a Ridgid shop vac with 2-1/2" flex hose network for "dust" collection (along with a separator).

All my tools have 2-1/2" or smaller ports. I have a couple of different dust collectors but I don't use them because I just can't run 4" piping (perhaps some day I will figure out a way to do this--my shop is TINY). My shop vac gets about 150-160 CFM w/o separator. With the separator and network I get about 125-CFM. Absolutely not enough for collection of fine dust.

So the more I read Bill Pentz's site (among others) the more concerned I've gotten that I'm breathing boxcar loads of super-fine dust. That, this dust never settles and every time I enter the shop I breath more of it.

I realize my setup is sub-optimum, but the question is, how much of a price am I paying for it?

Recently I stumbled upon a particle counter that is really geared towards homeowners. It uses a laser to count particles in two sizes.

From the manual:

"Small particles are all particles detected by the DC1100 right down to its detection limit--typically below 1-micron. Large particles are all particles detected above the large particle threshold which is typically around 5 microns."

The meter comes with a table to help interpret the readings:


0 - 25 Excellent Air Quality
25 - 50 Very Good
50 - 100 Good
100 - 350 Fair
350 - 1000 Poor
1000 + Very Poor


So I got this thing and plugged it in in my basement and let it settle for a half hour or so. I had not used any tools for at least 24-hours.

On returning to the shop, it was reading 53/4. You have to add "00" to the end of the readings, so 53/4 translates to 5300 particles total (per cubic foot), with 400 of them being larger than about 5 microns. So far, so good (looking at the table my reading was considered good).

So I switched on the vac and started to cut some MDF. I basically cut the edge off a 3/4" thick piece of 24" long MDF, taking about six swipes. This type of cut (where the blade isn't buried in the wood but rather the left edge of the blade is exposed) seems to generate the largest amount of visible dust above the saw.

I then switched off the saw and watched the meter spike. Approx. one minute after I was done cutting, the meter hit a max of 1955/515. So 195,500 particles (down to 1-micron) and 51,500 larger than 5.0 microns. Nearly twice the 1000+ reading that garners a "poor" rating from their table.

Subsequent readings:

+3 minutes (from peak): 1001/223
+9 minutes (from peak): 499/91
+46 minutes (from peak): 54/2 (now, it could have been low for a while, I had to go upstairs and wasn't paying super-close attention to the meter).

I'm taking for granted that the meter does, in fact, measure down to under 1-micron. However, I will say that the meter is extremely sensitive. Just moving around in the area (within six feet of the meter) causes readings to climb.

Some interesting factors: Above the saw is a vent from the furnace. The furnace has a Honeywell electronic air cleaner. When I close this vent, and let the [new] fine dust air cleaner (down to .3-micron) filter run for just fifteen or so minutes, the meter gets down to 18/1. With the vent reopened the meter almost immediately climbs to 50ish/3-4ish. So my take on this is that, with the vent open, the air from the rest of the house dilutes the super dirty air the table saw creates as I cut. So after cutting the #'s peak, but then fairly quickly start to drop again.

It is too early to make any real generalizations. I hope to use the meter to improve dust collection/filtering in my shop, home, and office (where we service PC's that are full of dust--similar issues to home wood shop).

BTW, the black thing is the meter, the big thing sitting on the floor is my new fine air filter.

[Mark Carlson]

Very interesting. I wonder if a $140 dollar dust particle counter is reliable? I was able to find the dylos site from your description and picture.

I would love to test my shop in the morning after not using any equipment for a couple of days. Turn on my canister style dust collector and see what the reading are. My guess is that my dust collector is really a dust pump and I should be thinking about a cyclone and a respirator.

~mark

[Andrew Nemeth]

Phil, Very interesting post. Where did you happen to pick up the meter and how much did it set you back? I did not used to worry too much about sawdust but recently I have begun to take it more seriously. I know dust collection is kinda the hot thing lately (I can't remember it being much of an issue 10 years ago). I recently jumped on the bandwagon and invested in an air filter and have become much more accustom to hooking up my shopvac when I can't use my DC. After spending so much time and money on a arsenal of dust collecting equipment I wonder how much good it really does. If it's affordable I would be interested in doing some test myself.

[Phil Thien]

Oh yeah, I'm sorry, it is a Dylos DC1100. You can make it out from the picture but I should have said something.

I do suspect it is pretty accurate. I kinda suspect there is some LSI circuit under the cover. Just like digital calipers were once expensive and somewhat obscure but became cheap and plentiful, I suspect the same thing is happening with this technology.

BTW, I believe Dylos is coming out with a .5 micron version (but it will be more expensive).

[Phil Thien]

Phil, Very interesting post. Where did you happen to pick up the meter and how much did it set you back? I did not used to worry too much about sawdust but recently I have begun to take it more seriously. I know dust collection is kinda the hot thing lately (I can't remember it being much of an issue 10 years ago). I recently jumped on the bandwagon and invested in an air filter and have become much more accustom to hooking up my shopvac when I can't use my DC. After spending so much time and money on a arsenal of dust collecting equipment I wonder how much good it really does. If it's affordable I would be interested in doing some test myself.


You can get them direct from the manufacturer:
www.dylosproducts.com (http://www.dylosproducts.com).

They run about $150.

You can also get 'em from www.americanallergysupply.com (http://www.americanallergysupply.com) (where I got mine--and Sandy has an interesting write-up about cleaning air with box fans and and pleated filters).

[Sam Yerardi]

Phil,

Is there a local university in your area? Sometimes they have people/equipment to do air quality analysis for biological studies, etc. They could help but I would make sure if there's a cost involved.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Is there a local university in your area? Sometimes they have people/equipment to do air quality analysis for biological studies, etc. They could help but I would make sure if there's a cost involved.

I'm done relying on others for this information. I purchased the equipment so I could see for myself how my shop measures up. By some accounts, using a shop vac for dust collection should have put me squarely in the "get out of that house" category. My meter tells me my air quality (at least down to .9 or .8 microns) is as good as it gets (in normal houses) within less than an hour of cutting MDF. I suppose it is possible that my .5 micron count is out of whack, but I kinda doubt it.

In retrospect, the single thing that could easily and economically be done to improve my picture would probably be to add a Shark Guard and dust pickup above the table saw. I can't say that for sure, but I suspect that investing $100 or $200 in a SG would do more to improve the situation than any gigantic DC or any type of filtering.

Need to do more research.

[Peter Quadarella]

There is an interesting thread in which the designer of the Dylos chimes in. The .5 micron unit is already available but you have to ask for it (although I would think 1 micron is good enough).

To find it, just search for Dylos DC1100 on Google and check out the link to the hvac-talk forum. It sounds like a pretty good unit.

[Phil Thien]

There is an interesting thread in which the designer of the Dylos chimes in. The .5 micron unit is already available but you have to ask for it (although I would think 1 micron is good enough).

To find it, just search for Dylos DC1100 on Google and check out the link to the hvac-talk forum. It sounds like a pretty good unit.

Thanks for the info Peter.

[Al Willits]

""""""""
So my take on this is that, with the vent open, the air from the rest of the house dilutes the super dirty air the table saw creates as I cut.
"""""""""

fwiw while the house air is diluting your shop area, your dirty shop air is polluting your house air.

Maybe something for those with basement shops to consider??
Al

[Todd Franks]

Phil,

Excellent post!! It is so refreshing to see actual data.


I'm done relying on others for this information. I purchased the equipment so I could see for myself how my shop measures up.

I'm with you on this point. I've researched and read this topic to death and as a result I decided to upgrade from a canister style DC to a cyclone. I have been wondering how much improvement I get for all the extra expense. We can discuss CFM, SP, Amps, filter efficiency, separation efficiency, etc but ultimately the number of particles in the air in your shop is the spec that matters most. I have also been wanting to do a before and after air quality measurement but didn't want to spend the bucks for a professional meter. Even if the absolute accuracy of this meter is off, it should be good enough for relative measurements. Thanks so much for this post.

Another interesting experiment would be to rerun your MDF test but put the meter somewhere else in your house. I'm curious how the air quality of the rest of the house is affected by a basement workshop.

Now, I can't believe I am really talking about spending $150 on a meter instead of a real tool.:eek:

-Todd

[Steve Leverich]

Todd, if you go to the Dylos site and click on the "com" option, there's a comparison between the expensive and the Dylos results - IMO, the diff isn't worth $4000 (although I do think I'll opt for the .5 micron version) HTH... Steve

[Brad Shipton]

This detector peaked my interest, so I sent an email to the manuf. Very quick to respond. Thought I would share with the other members.

Hi Brad:

The forum was brought to our attention today...and we like that different industries are interest in their air quality. What the DC1100 can do is provide you with a baseline of what the particle saturation is when you are not using any equipment and when you are not in the shop. Once that is established, you can run your equipment the way you normally would (you will see the counts increase significantly), then turn on your dust collectors and see if the counts go down. If they do, then they are doing their job, if not...then they may have a clog somewhere in the tubing or the filters/bags need to be replaced. Our DC1100 Air Quality Monitor was primarily designed for home/office use, however, it can be used in a woodworking shop, you just need to remember that the counts are going to be significantly higher as this type of environment has significant dust. As far as the question of accuracy is concerned it is...yes. If you go to our website you will see a graph inwhich a $4500 particle counter was compared against the DC1100, they almost track identically. If you have any additional questions, please feel free to email me again or call at the phone number below.

Thank you,

Kimberly Unger
Dylos Corporation
9825 Magnolia Avenue, #B327
Riverside, CA 92503
PH: 877.351.2730
FX: 951.351.1765
www.dylosproducts.com (http://www.dylosproducts.com)


----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Shipton (bshipton@force-engineering.com)
To: support@dylosproducts.com (support@dylosproducts.com)
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 1:25 AM
Subject: DC1100 for Woodworking Shop


A number of members on a forum are discussing the use of the DC1100 for monitoring the air quality in a Woodworking shop. All have installed some form of a dust collector (cyclone or single stage machines), but we cannot quantify the effectiveness of our systems. Would you recommend the DC1100 for evaluating a woodworking shop? What is the accuracy of this device?

Thank you
Brad Shipton

[Phil Thien]

I have spoken to Dylos and they have agreed to a group purchase. Kim will even individually ship the units to each purchaser for 2% above actual UPS (doesn't get any better than that).

The discounts are substantial and will depend on the size of the group (obviously), 25 being the minimum.

Here is some pricing:
Qty. 1, 1-micron, $159.95 each (MSRP)
Qty. 25, 1-micron, $103.99 each.
Qry. 50, 1-micron, $99.19 each.

Qty. 1, .5-micron, $219.00 each (MSRP)
Qty. 25, .5-micron, $142.99 each.
Qty. 50, .5-micron, $136.99 each.

Roger (developer) has agreed to go to Home Depot for me and pickup some MDF. He will saw/sand some MDF and some pine and compare and contrast the .5 and 1-micron units to each other. Either he or I will post the results.

Still some details to be worked out, but not a bad deal overall.

Looks promising.

[Greg Funk]

Put me down for one (either the .5 or 1 micron) depending on the test results.

Greg

[Eric Gustafson]

Put me down for either model, as well.

[Steve Leverich]

I'll take at least one - two if I can get the "com" option at a similar reduction (the .5 versions) Steve

[Brad Shipton]

I will take one too. Prefer the .5.

[Rob Blaustein]

Another interesting experiment would be to rerun your MDF test but put the meter somewhere else in your house. I'm curious how the air quality of the rest of the house is affected by a basement workshop...

-Todd

Something I've often wondered about too, as I have a basement shop and heat with forced hot air (and cool with central AC via same ductwork). The blower is also in the basement, but in a separate room, and I have no return coming from the shop, so I think I'm ok, but would be curious to know. Count me in.

[Will Blick]

Phil, great post, glad curiosity got the best of ya. This will help many of us as we all report back our findings.

The interesting thing is.... someone in a previous thread mentioned how the small particles, <1 micron are not subjected to gravity as the tiniest of wind currents always present keep them airborne. I am curious what kind of readings we get regarding this. From your early results, this does not seem to be the case....

How is it best to coordinate buying these at the discounted price? The burden should not be placed on you.... maybe we all email the company, and advise them of the SMC discount? I await your instructions.

I'll take a .5 micron version....

[Mark Carlson]

I'm in for a .5 version. Thanks

~mark

[Phil Thien]

Phil, great post, glad curiosity got the best of ya. This will help many of us as we all report back our findings.

The interesting thing is.... someone in a previous thread mentioned how the small particles, <1 micron are not subjected to gravity as the tiniest of wind currents always present keep them airborne. I am curious what kind of readings we get regarding this. From your early results, this does not seem to be the case....

How is it best to coordinate buying these at the discounted price? The burden should not be placed on you.... maybe we all email the company, and advise them of the SMC discount? I await your instructions.

I'll take a .5 micron version....

You're right, the burden should absolutely not be placed on me. ;)

It is a small company and I'd like to keep the deal as straight-forward as possible for them. I haven't spoken to them about payment details, but the optimum (for me at least) would be for each interested party to provide their own payment directly to Dylos and for Dylos to do all the shipping. If that becomes possible, it will be important to make it easy for them (perhaps we can develop a uniform order form that we can each fax to them).

In any case, I think it would be smart if people interested in the group buy avoided calling/E-Mailing them and asking what would probably be either repetitive questions or questions they cannot answer about a group buy that hasn't firmed-up yet.

If you don't want to wait for the group buy and want to order one now, by all means do so (well, not too many of you cause we need 25 (give or take) to qualify for the discount).

To answer your sawdust settling question, I gave the developer some background, explained some of the theories, and he questioned whether sawdust was, in fact, typically smaller than 1-micron. His words went something like "Well, bacteria is 1-micron give or take. And you'd think sawing or sanding a piece of wood is going to give you something equal to or larger than a single cell. So it seems sawdust would be >= 1-micron. What can we do to test?"

He said he had some pine, some sandpaper, and a circular saw. I asked him if he'd mind going and getting some MDF and he said not at all. I honestly this this is a fantastic, untapped market for him and he is smart enough to realize that.

BTW, in terms of .5-micron dust staying suspended while 1-micron settles, I found this interesting snippet that may refute this:

The _Fire Protection Handbook_ has a chapter devoted to "Storage and Handling
of Grain Mill Products". I have a rather older (15th) edition, and its Section
10, Chapter 8. It states, "The elements of a grain dust fire or explosion are
almost axiomatic; namely, that to be initiated and sustained there must be
fuel, oxygen, and an ignition source. To have an explosion, a fourth element
is needed: confinement, which contains the rapidly expanding heated gases of
combustion within a constraining enclosure until the pressures exceed the
ultimate strength of the enclosure."

It also states, "Dust particles emenating from various emission points within
a grain elevator are of varying composisions (including silica) and are of a
wide variety of sizes. It is generally agreed by researchers that particle
sizes below the 100 micron range constitute the greatest hazard, while the
larger particles tend to settle out rapidly. Thus, a dust cloud in suspension
would most likely be composed primarily of the finer particles (<100microns)."
Therefore, to extrapolate, flour dust would have to be relatively confined and
the particles would have to be smaller than 100 microns in order to explode.
Flour is a viable fuel for combustion or ecplosion. So far, so good.
However, the book goes on to state, "The dust suspended in ambient air
is normally a composite of particle sizes ranging from 1 micron to 100
microns or more, with the particles 100 microns or larger settling
quickly. Tests show that the visual opacity in a concentration of 20
g/cubic meter (near the lowest required for an explosion) would be
zero at a path length of 1 meter. WHILE IT SEEMS IMPROBABLE THAT SUCH
A DENSE CLOUD WOULD EXIST WITHIN THE AMBIENT SPACE OF AN ELEVATOR
STRUCTURE WHERE PERSONNEL ARE PRESENT, it seems equally likely that
such concentrations readily exist within the confines of bucket
elevators...etc., etc.".

[Victor Stearns]

Count me in for a 0.5 micron unit
Victor

[Phil Thien]

So far I've got:

Victor Stearns
Mike Carlson
Will Blick
Rob Blaustein
Brad Shipton
Steve Leverich (probably two--should be able to get discount)
Eric Gustafson
Greg Funk
Greg Peterson

About +8 guys at another site (the name we don't speak), so 17 as I write this.

So we'll get 25 no problem.

[Ron Ho]

So far I've got:

Victor Stearns
Mike Carlson
Will Blick
Rob Blaustein
Brad Shipton
Steve Leverich (probably two--should be able to get discount)
Eric Gustafson
Greg Funk
Greg Peterson

About +8 guys at another site (the name we don't speak), so 17 as I write this.

So we'll get 25 no problem.

Please count me in, for either unit.

Thanks,
Ron

[Will Blick]

Nice work Phil.... I am surprised this meter has not surfaced earlier, with all the dust talk lately. We should be getting some great feedback...

Let us know how we can compensate you for helping us out. How about $10 per unit, so yours would be essentially a freebie - since you initiated and organized the group purchase .... win/win?

[John Lucas]

An interesting thread and Phil, you are to be commended for your efforts.

I still go by the hankie method -- at the end of the day if, when I blow my nose, I see sawdust, my dust collection devices are not doing the trick. That may seem crude to some of you but came to me from a leading chest physician. His take was that you can pile all sorts of dust collectors, shop vacs and air cleaners but the only thing that really mattered were what your lungs saw - thus the hankie.

You have all witnessed the hankie effect. Keep it in mnd when you are making your measurements and DC improvements.

[Al Willits]

"""""
Something I've often wondered about too, as I have a basement shop and heat with forced hot air (and cool with central AC via same ductwork). The blower is also in the basement, but in a separate room, and I have no return coming from the shop, so I think I'm ok, but would be curious to know. Count me in.
""""""
Rob/anybody,

Remember if you have air from the furnace going in, you have to have air returning from that same space or you'll pressurize that area and at the point the pressure will equal the furnace air flow pressure, air stops going to that room at that point.

Rooms are not tight enough for this to happen, well, least in normal cases and with normal construction.
I just know someone out there has a air tight room....:D:D

So if you have air coming in, you have air going out, return or not.

Might want to check the rest of the house with them fancy meters, I'm betting your adding dust to anywhere the furnace blows.

Al

[Rob Blaustein]

"""""
Something I've often wondered about too, as I have a basement shop and heat with forced hot air (and cool with central AC via same ductwork). The blower is also in the basement, but in a separate room, and I have no return coming from the shop, so I think I'm ok, but would be curious to know. Count me in.
""""""
Rob/anybody,

Remember if you have air from the furnace going in, you have to have air returning from that same space or you'll pressurize that area and at the point the pressure will equal the furnace air flow pressure, air stops going to that room at that point.

Rooms are not tight enough for this to happen, well, least in normal cases and with normal construction.
I just know someone out there has a air tight room....:D:D

So if you have air coming in, you have air going out, return or not.

Might want to check the rest of the house with them fancy meters, I'm betting your adding dust to anywhere the furnace blows.

Al

Yes, I agree. Which is why I close the door to the shop and crack the window open. But I'm sure some escapes out the door too. So I try to keep as dust free as possible--Festool vac with sanders, router, etc, and cannister DC to saw with Wynn pleated filter, collecting from base and overarm guard when possible. But I'd still be curious to see what I'm generating in there and passing to the rest of the house.

[Todd Franks]

Add my name to the list. I'll await the test results on the 0.5 vs 1.0 micron.

[Bob Cooper]

i would like to purchase a unit as well...preferably the .5 micron unit.

[Bob Malone]

I'll take either one Phil, depending on the test results.

The next interesting aspect of this Dylos air testing unit would be to conduct a test in actual shop conditions, and compare the test results against the often quoted claims by some of the dust equipment manufactures.

Take some of the bigger magazines that routinely test table saws, planers, bandsaws etc., give them this meter and let them test:
- the 2 bag dust collection units under identical conditions cutting MDF on the same saw with a new standardized 1 mil bag on each machine, same blade tec.
- next test the cyclone units again with a standardized filter (maybe WYNN) same piping configuration and distance from table saw and see what happens

Cyclones are where I really suspect there has been some exaggerated claims made by some if not all manufactures and this sort of test would tell the tale! I know I need to improve my shop duct collection system; however, before I spend a bundle on new dust collection units, cyclone or otherwise, I feel that a good independant test would show WHICH CYCLONE MANUFACTURES really can back up their claims of having a quality unit. I suspect some manufactures don't want the indepedant test results known because I have never seen a test like this done in any magazine and I can only surmise that the manufactures don't want us to know the real truth. Bill Pentz has worked over the years to educate us, the machine users, about the problem with dust in our shops and I suspect he has worked with several cyclone manufactures to improve their machines - speciafically Onedia and Clear-Vue. I suspect any cyclone manufacturer who has faith in their product, would gladly submit product for an independant test of machine effectiveness!

Kudos to you Phil for moving the yardstick higher in the effort to protect our health and give us the tools to evaluate and hopfully improve out own shop comfort and safety. Keep us the good work!


Bob

[Phil Thien]

Bob (Malone),

I think we're (you, I, and almost every other woodworker on these forums) are in the same boat. For years we've been living the Emporer's New Clothes fairy tale. We're asked to accept for fact that which we cannot see. Furthermore, we pay for a solution to a problem but have no way of verifying that the solution worked (or didn't matters worse)!

I'm not saying fine dust isn't there. But with the cost of the Dylos, we can test for ourselves. We can gauge our risk, and take action which we deem appropriate for our own situtation.

I will say that so far, I'm quite surprised at the results of my testing. I made a wall shelf for the Dylos last night. It is small and made of baltic birch and a little cherry trim. At no time when I was cutting/sanding/etc. did I exceed a count of 350(00) 1-micron and larger particles.

It will be interesting to see the .5-micron tests. But at this point I'm far less concerned that I'm killing myself with boxcar loads of fines than I was just a week ago. And I've already pinpointed things I can do to keep the dust down.

[Al Willits]

I'd be interested in hearing what you come up with Rob.

Might be of benefit to those who have basement shops.

Have to admit I'm not quite to the level of concern that some of you are when it comes to DC, but enough has been said that I ordered a couple of the 7500 series 3M filter masks and will use them over the white disposable ones I have been using.
Thanks all.

Al...who doesn't think "cough cough" its effecting him "cough" hardly at "cough cough" all....:)

[Rob Blaustein]

Al-I agree, I do worry a bit more than most, so I also wear a good dust mask (Moldex N99). But a big part of my concern is also the other members of the house, including two little kids, hence my interest in this device.

[Peter Melanson]

If it is not to late I would like to put my name in the hat to get the .5 M version. Just let me know what the procedure is for getting one and the money to who needs it. I just built a new house with a 4 car and am using the last 2 bays as a shop that I will enclose soon hopefully.

thanks for your post and education.

[John Newell]

I'd be in for one, but at this time I'd only be interested in the .5 micron unit if we get a total order of 25 or more.



Qty. 25, .5-micron, $142.99 each.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'd be in for one, but at this time I'd only be interested in the .5 micron unit if we get a total order of 25 or more.What he said.

(Given where I live, it will be interesting to see what the "baseline" values are.)

[Will Blick]

I assume the .5 micron unit measures particles as low as .5 micron, whereas the 1 micron unit only sees particles 1 micron and larger, right?

If this is accurate, we may see different results on the .5 micron unit, i.e. the 1 micron unit may be missing some / most of the particles. Should be really interesting, as these are the dangerous sized particles.

Also, if Phils prelim. results are commonplace, it seems wearing a good dust mask while using ww machines, may be all we need, as it seems the particle levers fall pretty fast after this. If that is the case, then IMO, I can live with it...

[Gary Keedwell]

Phil...I sent you a PM. :)

Gary

[Rick de Roque]

So far I've got:

Victor Stearns
Mike Carlson
Will Blick
Rob Blaustein
Brad Shipton
Steve Leverich (probably two--should be able to get discount)
Eric Gustafson
Greg Funk
Greg Peterson

About +8 guys at another site (the name we don't speak), so 17 as I write this.

So we'll get 25 no problem.

Count me in for one.

Rick

[Phil Thien]

I assume the .5 micron unit measures particles as low as .5 micron, whereas the 1 micron unit only sees particles 1 micron and larger, right?

If this is accurate, we may see different results on the .5 micron unit, i.e. the 1 micron unit may be missing some / most of the particles. Should be really interesting, as these are the dangerous sized particles.

Also, if Phils prelim. results are commonplace, it seems wearing a good dust mask while using ww machines, may be all we need, as it seems the particle levers fall pretty fast after this. If that is the case, then IMO, I can live with it...

Exactly. Specifically, the .5 model has two thresholds: Everything above .5-microns and everything above 2.5 microns.

The 1-micron's thresholds are 1-micron and 5-microns.

So the test Roger (the developer) will conduct will put the two units side by side. He will saw and sand some pine and some MDF. If the #'s on both units climb at approx. the same rate, then that perhaps (not definitely, but with some certainty) wood dust isn't that big after all.

Now mind you, I'm not saying we should buy the 1-micron if they both give the same results for wood. The .5-micron may be handy for someone some day for other purposes. There are uses for these things outside of the shop.

But the test results should be interesting.

[Will Blick]

Great plan of attack Phil, thank you again for spear-heading this. I did not get much response regarding compensating you for your efforts, but hopefully others will come forward and we can work something out. A deed this noble should not go un rewarded. I hope others feel the same way.

I wrote previously....

> Also, if Phils prelim. results are commonplace, it seems wearing a good dust mask while using ww machines, may be all we need, as it seems the particle count fall pretty fast after the machine is turned off. If that is the case, then IMO, I can live with it...

Just to be clear, for those maybe new to this.... I am NOT suggesting that we abandon DC systems, venting outside when we can, opening up the shop doors when possible to air out the dust, etc. etc.

What I was referring to...... with all these Dust control measures in place, it's possible, we can solve 90% of the remaining airborne dust problem by wearing a respirator when actually making the dust.... if the dust settles within minutes. WE don't have to wear the respirators most of the day... this would be great news IMO....and will make these meters invaluable to all of us, as we finally have a tool that enables us to SEE the particle count. Then, we can sleep at night knowing we have taken adequate safety measures while not making ww so inconvenient. It will also help reduce some of us who have continuous paranoia of the potential risks of this hobby.

[Dirk Lewis]

I'm up for a 0.5 unit.

[John Newell]

Now mind you, I'm not saying we should buy the 1-micron if they both give the same results for wood. The .5-micron may be handy for someone some day for other purposes. There are uses for these things outside of the shop.

Yes, that was what I was thinking...


But the test results should be interesting.

Definitely.

[Frank Martin]

I will watch the thread for how to pay.

Thanks

[Greg Funk]

Phil,

It would be interesting to get some data on the baseline levels for the .5um version and compare these with some of the data taken by Bill Pentz when he tested Jay Albrandt's shop in Oct/06. In that test they found the outdoor and shop baseline counts were around 140,000/2000 .5/5um particles which is considerably higher than the baseline measurements you recorded for 1 and 5um particles.

It may be that the .5um versions get overwhelmed by non-woodworking related dust from other sources (pollen, smoke etc).

Greg

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

It would be interesting to get some data on the baseline levels for the .5um version and compare these with some of the data taken by Bill Pentz when he tested Jay Albrandt's shop in Oct/06. In that test they found the outdoor and shop baseline counts were around 140,000/2000 .5/5um particles which is considerably higher than the baseline measurements you recorded for 1 and 5um particles.

It may be that the .5um versions get overwhelmed by non-woodworking related dust from other sources (pollen, smoke etc).

Greg

Greg, that is an excellent question. We're going to get more data on this but for the time being I thought I'd share some information that the developer of the Dylos passed on.

During testing, they often find a rule of thumb which correlates the .5 and 1-micron levels. He said, for example, that it is commonly the case in clean rooms (I think that was his example) to see a 4:1 ratio of .5 to 1-micron dust.

These ratios vary, however. Flour mills, paper mills, fire sites, coal mines (these are my examples) would see different ratios because the predominate contaminant's properties determine the size of the particles that would be suspended.

But, if we cheat and use the 4:1 ratio here anyway (we don't know the correct ratio to use for MDF), we can try to make a preliminary comparison of my #'s to those that BP got at JA's. For example, the residuals inside JA's shop were 144,290/1940 (.5 and 5). My Dylos read 53/4. Converting the .5 readings at JA's to Dylos 1.0 readings would be (144,290/4/100), or approx. 360/1940.

JA says that after cutting the concentrations "doubled to just past the point of requiring a mask for my safety." I'm assuming 288,580/3880. So, (288,580 * 2/4/100), or approx. 720/3880 (duh, 720 is twice 360, but I did the math anyhow). My Dylos peaked at 1955/515.

Now, let's cheat even more and assume that the rule of thumb is 2:1. That is, cutting MDF creates twice as many .5 micron particles as it does 1-micron particles. Now converting JA's residual # gives (144,290/2/100), or 720/1940. And his after-cutting #'s would have been (288,580/2/100), or 1440/3880.

Obviously this is all quackery, just playing with #'s. If making simple comparisons we imagine that JA's air quality in San Diego isn't as good as my Milwaukee air quality, and this explains why his residuals were so high compared to mine. I also run an electronic air cleaner 24-hours a day. Also, I've noticed that when my family is home, my residuals go up. I noticed yesterday that when the kids were opening/closing the outside door just upstairs of the shop that my 1-micron #'s were jumping from approx. 72(00) to 340(00). I had noticed this the day before but to a lesser degree.

[Editorial point: I have two girls, 11 and 17, that I love dearly but are having the time of their life ribbing me over this. When I tried explaining that I thought it was interesting that their opening and closing the outside door was causing my #'s to spike, they gave me blank looks. Ten minutes later when the younger one was going to the car to get her swim bag, she said, "dad, I'm going outside which will require me to open the door, you might want to hold you breath for about thirty minutes." Do you see what I have to deal with? They're brutal.]

Anyway, we could assume that JA's dust collection (although he wasn't satisfied) is superior to mine, in that after cutting MDF my peak was either 2.7 or 1.35 (depends on the ratio) times his. Of course, some of this may have to do in the way I was keeping my blade exposed at the edge at all times. YES, I was trying to create the most dust possible while preserving my stash of "tiger MDF" (the guy at the lumber yard told me their MDF was more expensive because it is made from tiger and birdseye maple trees. And yes, I am just kidding.). :p

[Lee DeRaud]

If making simple comparisons we imagine that JA's air quality in San Diego isn't as good as my Milwaukee air quality, and this explains why his residuals were so high compared to mine.If you live downwind from a desert, you're gonna get dusty. DAMHIKT. :eek:

(And that's ignoring occasional "living downwind from a wildfire" events...)

[Will Blick]

Phil, glad you are enjoying your new toy, even if you must eat crow from you daughters ;-)

A few comments regarding your post....

I am curious how significant air speed is to these sensors. If air is stagnant, I can see this laser approach being very effective in counting particles. But when air is moving at faster speeds, such as being sucked through a DC port on a power tool, I would suspect the laser would have a hard time reading fast moving particles. You may want to ask the meter engineer this question so we better understand how to use the meter.


It will be interesting also to get some baseline data on our outdoor air throughout the country. As the previous poster mentioned, living near or in a desert, sure creates dusty air. I would be curious to see what particle count this meter registers in downtown NY city on a busy day. It's possible, the air quality in the busy city streets are worse than our shops :-) In a way, I would feel a lot better if that was the case. Lots of unknowns here.

I wish this meter had a battery options. I assume we can rig up an inverter with a large battery pack for those times we want to make it portable.

Seems your curiosity may lead to some very interesting findings.... as not only am I interested in the particle count in the shop, but how that compares with the ambient particle count where people live, inside their houses, etc. After this group purchase, we might become the pioneers in getting a better grip on this dust issue.

[Rob Will]

Something I've often wondered about too, as I have a basement shop and heat with forced hot air (and cool with central AC via same ductwork). The blower is also in the basement, but in a separate room, and I have no return coming from the shop, so I think I'm ok, but would be curious to know. Count me in.

Hey Rob, Good questions you guys are bringing up.
As far as the furnace return goes....I think your dust-in-the-house situation is worse with no return in the shop area. If you had a return, that air would have to go through the furnace filters. With no return, it simply blows back into the house anywhere it can. That air is returning somewhere.

My new shop has a forced air furnace equipped with a Spacegaurd pleated media filter and two 20 x 20 pre-filters (cheap throw aways). This seems to really grab the dirt.

Rob

[Rob Will]

I'm in.
Either unit.

Rob

[Rob Blaustein]

Hey Rob, Good questions you guys are bringing up.
As far as the furnace return goes....I think your dust-in-the-house situation is worse with no return in the shop area. If you had a return, that air would have to go through the furnace filters. With no return, it simply blows back into the house anywhere it can. That air is returning somewhere.

My new shop has a forced air furnace equipped with a Spacegaurd pleated media filter and two 20 x 20 pre-filters (cheap throw aways). This seems to really grab the dirt.

Rob

Interesting thought, Rob. I guess I was operating under the assumption that if I generate some dust during a short period of shop use, that I'd also run my overhead filter and 'clean' the room to 'capture' what my DC doesn't, and then what escapes (and eventually returns to the blower) will be cleaner. But I may be wrong.

I've been using a 3M Filtrete Ultra Allergen 1250 filter for the furnace blower after reading a review in Consumer Reports a while back. And it turns out that my Home Depot has them for a great price. But the latest CR tests suggest that the newer 1700 filter is even better. These days I've had little time to generate a lot of dust so probably am not taxing the system (or our lungs) much.

[Rob Will]

Interesting thought, Rob. I guess I was operating under the assumption that if I generate some dust during a short period of shop use, that I'd also run my overhead filter and 'clean' the room to 'capture' what my DC doesn't, and then what escapes (and eventually returns to the blower) will be cleaner. But I may be wrong.

I've been using a 3M Filtrete Ultra Allergen 1250 filter for the furnace blower after reading a review in Consumer Reports a while back. And it turns out that my Home Depot has them for a great price. But the latest CR tests suggest that the newer 1700 filter is even better. These days I've had little time to generate a lot of dust so probably am not taxing the system (or our lungs) much.

Thanks for the tip Rob, I think I'll stop by the BORG and upgrade my filters. I will probably leave an el-cheapo in the front to catch the big chunks and put the better filters in the rear.

Rob

[Phil Thien]

The "other site" where I'm looking for order commitments had an interesting post. The poster seemed to misunderstand the ordering process I envision and I think was concerned about giving me is CC and personal information. A valid concern in this day and age, if you ask me.

Just to be perfectly clear, it is my intention that each person ordering will be communicating their order information directly to Dylos via fax or other method (maybe Dylos will provide an online way of doing this--I have to talk w/ Kim about it). It will not pass through my hands. I will never see your credit card or personal information. I will only design a PDF form that YOU print and YOU fax.

[Fred Linthicum]

Prefer .5 micron unit.

Thanks for your initiative!
Fred

[Jim Tobias]

I'm in for a .5 unit.

Jim

[Al Willits]

Just a note for those of you who think your furnace is suppose to keep your air clean too, be careful, as furnace filters were designed to keep furnaces clean...period.

Furnace & A/C units are designed to work with a certain air flow, the company I work for makes a tidy profit from replacing heat exchangers and A/C units from units being misused with to restrictive a filter.

Make sure your filters will pass the required amount of air.

Al

[Wayne Watling]

Is this good for orders to Ontario Canada via the USPS?

Thanks.

[Phil Thien]

Is this good for orders to Ontario Canada via the USPS?

Thanks.

They seem to be equipped to ship UPS. If push comes to shove, perhaps I can get an extra unit and mail it to you. I don't want to overwhelm her with "for this guy do this and for this guy do that" types of instructions.

Edit: Or you could put me as your shipping address and once I receive it I'll forward it via USPS.

[Wayne Watling]

Edit: Or you could put me as your shipping address and once I receive it I'll forward it via USPS.

Hi Phil,

I really dont want to overwhelm you either, my first preference is for them to do it. The reason behind using USPS is that UPS and the others go very heavy with the customs brokerage which would make it expensive. They are getting a good order and exposure here so I would not be too concerned about them having to do a little work :)
I'll mark clearly on my order form to ship it USPS, it couldn't be that much extra work for them when they pick up their mail from the PO.

I'm in for a 0.5 micron version (with ability to download to computer)

Thanks for your efforts.
Wayne

[michael osadchuk]

I have spoken to Dylos and they have agreed to a group purchase. Kim will even individually ship the units to each purchaser for 2% above actual UPS (doesn't get any better than that).

The discounts are substantial and will depend on the size of the group (obviously), 25 being the minimum.

Here is some pricing:
Qty. 1, 1-micron, $159.95 each (MSRP)
Qty. 25, 1-micron, $103.99 each.
Qry. 50, 1-micron, $99.19 each.

Qty. 1, .5-micron, $219.00 each (MSRP)
Qty. 25, .5-micron, $142.99 each.
Qty. 50, .5-micron, $136.99 each.

Roger (developer) has agreed to go to Home Depot for me and pickup some MDF. He will saw/sand some MDF and some pine and compare and contrast the .5 and 1-micron units to each other. Either he or I will post the results.

Still some details to be worked out, but not a bad deal overall.

Looks promising.



Put me down for one unit, preferably the .5 micron version

I read the thread of actual users on www.hvac-talk.com that was referenced earlier and those posters have a positive evaluation.

michael in newmarket, ontario, canada

[michael osadchuk]

Hi Phil,

I really dont want to overwhelm you either, my first preference is for them to do it. The reason behind using USPS is that UPS and the others go very heavy with the customs brokerage which would make it expensive. They are getting a good order and exposure here so I would not be too concerned about them having to do a little work :)
I'll mark clearly on my order form to ship it USPS, it couldn't be that much extra work for them when they pick up their mail from the PO.

I'm in for a 0.5 micron version

Thanks for your efforts.
Wayne


I just saw Wayne's post and agree with him - for Canadian posters, if the manufacturer can ship to us via the US postal service, we will be able to avoid significant brokerage fees.
thanks
michael
newmarket, ontario

[Rob Will]

Just a note for those of you who think your furnace is suppose to keep your air clean too, be careful, as furnace filters were designed to keep furnaces clean...period.

Furnace & A/C units are designed to work with a certain air flow, the company I work for makes a tidy profit from replacing heat exchangers and A/C units from units being misused with to restrictive a filter.

Make sure your filters will pass the required amount of air.

Al

Al, I started a new thread with this topic.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=73668
Thanks
Rob

[Phil Thien]

They are getting a good order and exposure here so I would not be too concerned about them having to do a little work :)
I'll mark clearly on my order form to ship it USPS, it couldn't be that much extra work for them when they pick up their mail from the PO.

I'm in for a 0.5 micron version (with ability to download to computer)

Thanks for your efforts.
Wayne

In all fairness they're giving us the same discount they'd give to a distributor that has them all shipped to a single location, and which would probably pay via a method w/ no additional costs (unlike CC).

So we're going to ask, we're not going to tell. When we're all done it is important to me that Kim and Roger do not feel one ounce of regret.

You guys will just have to trust me a little.

[Phil Thien]

So I thought I'd add some more #'s. Today I machined the wood for a face frame I need for a medicine cabinet I'm making for a bathroom. The machining involved ripping a 1x6 piece of oak into three 1-3/4" strips, and then cross-cutting it into four pieces to make the frame. I made probably twice as many cross cuts as Nahm woulda have because I found a split in the wood after I started, which required cutting a new horizonal member.

Then I routed for FF biscuits using my router table. A total of 16 "plunges."

When I entered the shop the meter was at 42/2. I then started to work and took readings every few minutes. The times I list here are all relative to starting, and are approximate guesses, not exact.

Here are the results:

Starting: 42/2
+2 min: 286/67 (Starting to rip)
+4 min: 460/97
+5 min: 900/196 (I stopped working and observed this peak)
+7 min: 408/76 (Starting to cross-cut)
+10 min: 269/50
+14 min: 205/38
+16 min: 123/19
+18 min: 96/11
+20 min: 71/8
+24 min: 47/7 (Done w/ machining, I'm ready to glue)

The only important differences between this test and the previous are: (1) I was working in oak instead of MDF. (2) I'm using a W1742 fine air cleaner now.

#2 above probably doesn't make much of a difference, but I'll explain my point in using it. First, some background.

The W1742 is a 200-CFM (max) air cleaner that is said to get particles down to .3-micron. It is made by Shop Fox and I got mine new on eBay from UtterGuys for $110 including shipping. It has three speeds and a variable off timer.

I realize 200-CFM is nothing. But I'm actually using it more as a long-term air quality meter. Here's how: I am running it continuously. I took an approximate CFM reading the day I plugged it in (195-CFM) and marked the day. In thirty days I will take another reading and then check the filter to see what it looks like.

Then, I will transport it to work and perform the same test. There is no woodworking going on there and I will be able to perform the test and compare the results. If sub-micron woodworking dust is as plentiful as some say (especially for those using a Shop Vac for collection :eek:), the two different filters should tell the story.

I will be slightly delayed in my W1742 test because the original filter had a hole. UtterGuys are sending me a new one, and I've got to order more from Griz, too.

So far my testing is telling me that I should wear a mask while working at the table saw. And I should investigate a Shark Guard or something similar.

[Mark Taylor]

I'd like to be added to the list for either meter.

Mark Taylor

[Phil Thien]

Sandy (from American Allergy) just sent me a link to a page where they did some testing at a Rockler in TX. Looks like they used some sort of CNC router. Their tests pretty clearly indicate the machine was generating many more 1-micron particles than .5-micron particles.

I'm not sure how the test was conducted and I'm a little confused because I thought the .5 would have counted everything .5 micron AND LARGER. It appears, from this test, that it is only looking for 1-micron.

The Dylos developer is also going to do some testing with MDF and sawing/sanding for us. We will wait for those results and I'll talk with him in regards to whether .5-micron units only measure .5, or whether they look for .5 and larger.

Nonetheless, here is a link to the additional data.

http://www.americanallergysupply.com/dylos/woodworking.htm

[Wayne Watling]

I'm not sure how the test was conducted and I'm a little confused because I thought the .5 would have counted everything .5 micron AND LARGER. It appears, from this test, that it is only looking for 1-micron.


I read that too but was under the impression that the test was done with the 1um/5um unit not the 0.5um unit. If you go back to the columns in the spreadsheet they are labeled 1 micron and 5 micron.

Wayne

[Phil Thien]

I read that too but was under the impression that the test was done with the 1um/5um unit not the 0.5um unit. If you go back to the columns in the spreadsheet they are labeled 1 micron and 5 micron.

Wayne

Thank you. Duh. I guess I was fooled because Sandy made the assertion that the 1-micron was best. How can you do that w/o testing the .5? Gosh! Sandy doesn't work at Dylos (but is a reseller), and apparently still doesn't have a .5 unit to test.

[Wayne Watling]

How can you do that w/o testing the .5? Gosh! Sandy doesn't work at Dylos (but is a reseller), and apparently still doesn't have a .5 unit to test.

After reading it I had the same question, how did he come to that conclusion.

[Rob Will]

What sort of software and cables are required to log data from these units?

Would a chart be real time and self generating(?).... or would the data be in the form of a spread sheet and you make your own chart(?)

This type of data logging is interesting to me....just wondering if it is simple enough for a hillbilly to use:o.

Rob

[Adam Boyer]

I'm in for one - 0.5 please...

[Phil Thien]

What sort of software and cables are required to log data from these units?

Would a chart be real time and self generating(?).... or would the data be in the form of a spread sheet and you make your own chart(?)

This type of data logging is interesting to me....just wondering if it is simple enough for a hillbilly to use:o.

Rob

I imagine they send raw data and you're responsible for importing it into something like Excel and graphing it. You could use something like HyperTerminal to do the capturing.

[Rob Will]

I imagine they send raw data and you're responsible for importing it into something like Excel and graphing it. You could use something like HyperTerminal to do the capturing.

OK help me out here Phil, what is Hyper Terminal? I have not heard of that.

Rob

[Kent Cartwright]

Please put me down for one .5 meter.

Thanks!!

Kent

[Lee DeRaud]

OK help me out here Phil, what is Hyper Terminal?Windows terminal emulator, found under Start->Programs->Accessories->Communications.
Transforms a Windows PC into a 30-year-old DEC VT100...although some people consider that an improvement. :eek::cool::D

[Phil Thien]

Just spoke w/ Roger at Dylos. First, he did some pine and MDF testing this last weekend with his PC finish sander and some fine sandpaper. He used both a .5-micron and 1-micron meter, as well as a 6-channel particle counter. He is E-Mailing the results but I will paraphrase our discussion.

With the 1-micron model, sanding pine, he took an initial reading of 480(00), and an after reading of 4700(00). A 10x increase in 1-micron dust.

With the .3-micron model, sanding pine, he took an initial reading of 2000(00), and an after reading of 9630(00). This is approx. a 5x increase.

Based upon those measurements, he says sanding pine produces more >1-micron particles than .5-micron particles.

Next, he did some MDF.

With the 1-micron meter, his before reading was 520(00), and his after was 5450(00). Again a 10x increase.

With the .5-micron, his before was 2170(00), and his after was 10140(00). This again is a 5x increase.

His take was sanding MDF isn't that much different than sanding pine. More "coarse" (his term) than fine particles.

On the larger (5-micron) scales, he started at 85(00) both times and ended-up at 1580(00) (for pine) and 1960(00) for MDF.

To perform this test he setup a fan (w/ a filter) to blow-over the area he was sanding. Down-wind of this he setup the meters.

Due to the nature of his test, he doesn't have any settling data. And quite honestly I understand that he may have some resistance to getting into the business of measuring how quickly .5-micron dust settles compared to 1-micron. He did say that .5-micron dust settles more slowly that 1-micron, and that we could google "settling times" for more data. Until get get .5-micron units that will have to do.

Kim (his wife) who will handle the processing of the orders wasn't in today. I proposed to Roger that we all fax our orders in individually and that they charge the cards individually and ship them for us. He said that sounded fine, but he will defer to Kim (I will put all this in an E-Mail to her).

He also said he would defer to Kim on shipping units to Canada via USPS, but that this sounds reasonable, as well.

He said it would be fine if some of you want serial ports and some don't.

So there it is in a nutshell. I will finish the details up w/ Kim hopefully tomorrow and have a PDF order form posted Tuesday night or Wednesday. You will be able to download/fax the form and the order cutoff will probably be set to sometime next Monday (21st) or Tuesday (22nd).

It will take 5-10 days after they receive the order (depending on configuration like whether you want a serial port) for them to begin shipping the units.

**********

Roger just E-Mailed me his test results, here it is:

Hi Phil,

Here are my raw test results.

Test Conditions-

A fan is blowing filtered air towards the test setup
A Finishing sander is set up 2 feet from the fan
A 6 channel particle counter is set up 6 inches downstream of the sander
220grit sandpaper is used

The following are the concentration of particles per cubic foot
Size Channel Before Pine After MDF
> 0.3 micron 207618 963456 217774 1014391
>0.5 micron 85672 701476 93127 769685
>1.0 micron 48356 477381 52858 545445
>2.0 micron 34459 368715 37769 436662
>5.0 micron 8719 158895 8331 196115
>10.0 micron 1756 73679 2314 79891

The sander was run for 15 seconds with light pressure - the data for Pine and MDF was taken during the sanding.

What I noticed most about these numbers is that the distribution is very much skewed towards larger particles. Also, the size distribution seemed very close between the pine and the MDF.

[Greg Funk]

Phil,

Am I understanding correctly that we can basically order any configuration we want, .5 or 1um with or without serial port and receive the group buy discount? Or do we need to have 25 units of a particular model to get the discount?

thx,

Greg

[Phil Thien]

Furthermore, I find it interesting that last night I was sanding my face frame with the meter within 2-feet of me and the 1-micron and 5-micron #'s barely budged (maybe they went up by 1(00) each). The sander was a PC ROS connected to my Ridgid vac and my cyclone lid.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Am I understanding correctly that we can basically order any configuration we want, .5 or 1um with or without serial port and receive the group buy discount? Or do we need to have 25 units of a particular model to get the discount?

thx,

Greg

Have to confirm w/ Kim, but I think that is correct. HOWEVER, if everyone else gets a .5 and you get a 1, then comparing results may be a little more difficult (but not too bad, we do have some rules of thumb emerging, you can figure out how many .5 particles there are based on the # of 1-micron particles).

[Greg Funk]

Have to confirm w/ Kim, but I think that is correct. HOWEVER, if everyone else gets a .5 and you get a 1, then comparing results may be a little more difficult (but not too bad, we do have some rules of thumb emerging, you can figure out how many .5 particles there are based on the # of 1-micron particles).
Thanks Phil,

It seems to me that the value of this meter in the workshop is really for comparative measurements either between the air in your home and shop or outdoors and shop rather than absolute measurements. I doubt there are many operations we undertake in the workshop that generate a significant amount of .5um dust but not 1um particles.

Greg

[John Newell]

Phil, many thanks for all your work and effort on this. <hat's off>

[Will Blick]

> I doubt there are many operations we undertake in the workshop that generate a significant amount of .5um dust but not 1um particles.


Greg, I think this is a fair conclusion based on the data so far. But, for the few extra bucks, it may pay to get the .5 unit, as their hasn't been enough experimentation as of yet. For example, what about 600 grit sandpaper? Different woods? drum sanders?

The real key is, we came from nowhere, but now have a cost effective means to get a decent read on what we can not see with our eyes. Again, thanks Phil....

[michael osadchuk]

Have to confirm w/ Kim, but I think that is correct. HOWEVER, if everyone else gets a .5 and you get a 1, then comparing results may be a little more difficult (but not too bad, we do have some rules of thumb emerging, you can figure out how many .5 particles there are based on the # of 1-micron particles).

Phil, first of all thanks for your continuing great work on pulling this effort together and, more specifically, for asking Roger about their using US Postal Service for orders into Canada to avoid the outrageous brokerage fees typically charged by the other services.

I'd be interested in more discussion/clarification about cost/benefit in choosing between the .5micron and 1-micron unit.
I don't have a problem paying more..... hmmm.... about 37% more for the .5micron unit ....if there is a meaningful advantage in dealing with the typical situations I encounter as an amateur woodworker and householder but I'm also wondering if I'm not also hearing that the .5 micron particle count can be extrapolated from the 1 micron unit or am I misunderstanding this.
It "seems" that either size unit reads or extrapolates two (adjacent) sizes of particulates - while the test instrument Roger used to measure pine and mds dust was a lab quality unit with six discrete particulate size chanels.

I'll await your posting of the order form that we can send in directly to Roger and Kim and will post anything that I learn further in surfing the net on particulate size.

[Greg Funk]

> I doubt there are many operations we undertake in the workshop that generate a significant amount of .5um dust but not 1um particles.


Greg, I think this is a fair conclusion based on the data so far. But, for the few extra bucks, it may pay to get the .5 unit, as their hasn't been enough experimentation as of yet. For example, what about 600 grit sandpaper? Different woods? drum sanders?

The real key is, we came from nowhere, but now have a cost effective means to get a decent read on what we can not see with our eyes. Again, thanks Phil....
I agree a special thanks to Phil are in order as I wouldn't have heard of this device otherwise.

Regarding the 1um vs .5um, the most difficult machines I have to deal with are saws, either the SCMS or tablesaw. My random orbital sander is well controlled by connecting it to a vacuum. This was confirmed by Phil's tests with a vacuum connectet ROS that indicated little increase in 1 or 5um particles.

If you look at most of the dust generated by 600grit sandpaper I suspect the particles are huge compared to 1 or even 5um.

I've attached a graph from an article http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=b312883k&JournalCode=EM from the Journal of Environmental Monitoring showing the distribution of particle sizes for wood dust. The article is talking about different air samplers but the graph seems applicable. There is a better article from the Journal titled: "Determining particle size distributions in the inhalable size range for wood dust collected by air samplers" but I don't have access to the text. Perhaps someone associated with a University can read it.

Greg

[Rob Will]

Windows terminal emulator, found under Start->Programs->Accessories->Communications.
Transforms a Windows PC into a 30-year-old DEC VT100...although some people consider that an improvement. :eek::cool::D

Lee, I looked at Hyper Terminal in Windows. It seems like some sort of dial up connection for a phone line. How will this interface with the particle counters? Sorry for the dumb questions.

Rob

[Lee DeRaud]

Lee, I looked at Hyper Terminal in Windows. It seems like some sort of dial up connection for a phone line. How will this interface with the particle counters? Sorry for the dumb questions.HyperTerminal normally just talks to a serial port (e.g. COM1), which can either be a modem/phone-line or some other device like the meter... you probably saw the options for modem control, since that's what it defaults to.

The meter has a serial interface, and as they note, you can get USB-to-serial interface widgets for computers that don't have COM ports. (Whether HyperTerminal will work with a USB port, I have no idea.)

[Wayne Watling]

Some of these devices come with a small program on a CD that you can install on your computer specifically to access the data on the device, hopefully it has one of those which should make it easy to download the data to the hard drive.

[Greg Funk]

Rob,

It is likely that the meter will periodically transmit the particle counts out the serial port in text format with one or two readings per line. Hyperterminal or any other terminal emulator program will let you watch the output and save it to a text file if you want. You will then be able to read the text file into Excel if you want to graph the data.

I've asked Dylos for the format of the serial port data and will let you know when I hear from them.

Greg

[Morris Hansen]

I would be intersted in a .5 unit, preferably the one with the com port for logging.

[Tom Walz]

I’ll take one, the basic unit. What a great product.

As a rule of thumb (and not absolute truth) particles smaller than one micron tend to stay suspended in air so you breathe them in and then out again. Particles larger than 10 microns are heavy enough to fall rapidly (depending on what they are) or get trapped in nose hairs, mucous membranes etc before they get to the lungs.

Tom

[Phil Thien]

I'm ready with the form and have just one more question. The form now offers four choices, the 1/5 micron without logging, the 1/5 micron with logging, the .5/2.5 micron without logging, and the .5/2.5 micron with logging.

I faxed the form to Kim at Dylos to make sure it was okay, and she called and told me the form is great, but that their standard .5 is a .5/5 micron. BUT, they do have a .5/2.5-micron they can do for the same price.

I guess I knew this but had just assumed that the .5/2.5 was the way to go, as we want to count the finest dusts. We've already seen that the larger stuff settles pretty fast.

In addition, using my scales, someone could order one of each (if they are so inclined) and get basically a four-channel particle counter, so they can count at .5, 1, 2.5, and 5. I think this is the best way to go and if a few people agree with me in the next hour or so I'm going to post the order form here. The orders do have to be in my next Monday night, so there is no time to waste.

[Wayne Watling]

The 0.5um/2.5um sounds good to me Phil, great job.

Since you are acting as our contact, could you ask the questions as to whether they include software with the COM port version. If this is something you prefer me to ask directly then let me know.

Thanks,
Wayne

[Phil Thien]

The 0.5um/2.5um sounds good to me Phil, great job.

Since you are acting as our contact, could you ask the questions as to whether they include software with the COM port version. If this is something you prefer me to ask directly then let me know.

Thanks,
Wayne

Wayne, I'll have your answer tomorrow. I'll post it here so everyone can benefit.

[Will Blick]

sorry if this was already answered, this thread got pretty long....

With the PC interface....do you need the pc connected to the unit at all times, or does the Dylos have some memory, so you can dump it every x hours?

[Phil Thien]

sorry if this was already answered, this thread got pretty long....

With the PC interface....do you need the pc connected to the unit at all times, or does the Dylos have some memory, so you can dump it every x hours?

The serial port sends data as sampling occurs. It won't buffer data that I know of.

[Phil Thien]

Here is the completed order form:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/dc1100.pdf

[David Parker]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your efforts. Is it possible to order the 0.5 / 5 micron version that they typically sell? After researching wood dust particle size and it's health effects, I find the following:

1) Particles significantly greater than 10 microns make up the bulk of sawdust by weight (although not by particle count) and tend to settle out of the air quickly.
2) Particles in the 5 to 10 micron range tend to be filtered by the nasal mucosa or trapped within the central tracheal-bronchial tree. There is an increased incidence of nasal adenocarcinomas associated with long term wood dust exposure.
3) Particles less than 2.5 microns can reach the terminal aveoli. Wood dust within the alveoli and bronchial mucosa is known to induce an inflammatory response, particularly with repeated exposure. Repeated inflammation can lead to fibrotic changes, COPD, asthmatic disease, etc. In other words it's not good. While the cancer risk of fine wood dust particles has not been conclusively proven, a cancer link has been shown with general airborne particulates of this size and it's probably not too great a leap to suppose it's possible with fine wood dust as well.
4) Fine wood dust (at least with Japanese beech) shows a bimodal particle size distribution with the majority of the particles being in the .35 micron or the 5.9 micron range. I found another paper that gave an average fine particle size in the 1 micron range (using pine), which makes sense given the bimodal distribution found in the Japanese paper.

Based on this information, I'm interested in knowing what the particle count is in my workshop / home for both the larger fine particles in the 5 micron range as well as the smaller particles in the 0.5 micron range, without having to buy two instruments. Since they typically sell the 0.5 / 5 micron version of the DC1100, could this also be included on the group buy? If we can't, then I think I'd go for the 1/5 micron unit since I'd really like to know what my nasal mucosa was being exposed to, and 1 micron samples will give a reasonable indication of what the smaller particle levels are doing.

[Matt Schroeder]

Phil,

As I was standing in my 40 degree garage shop last night (shivering) I got to wondering if the meter works in extreme conditions (low or high temp, high humidty). I could not find tech specs in a quick look at the Dylos site, so if somebody can point me to them, or if you can ask them, how the unit will perform in an uncondtioned outdoor space that would be helpful.

Thanks!

[Phil Thien]

Guys, I'll ask if Kim minds you guys crossing-out the .5/2.5 micron and writing-in .5/5 micron.

I will say that above 1-micron that the dust settles pretty fast. It may be worth sticking to the .5/2.5 and extrapolating UP if you want 5-micron data, as the 5-micron particles just don't stay suspended very long.

I'll also fine out how the machine works in cold/humid conditions. Although, I will mention the unit uses a small fan to move the air through it. My experience is that these small fans don't tolerate cold temps too well. I noticed they use a Delta fan, which is a high quality fan (I'm in the PC business and I'm accustomed to seeing Delta fans on high-end servers). But it is a small fan, so that small bearing can only tolerate so much cold.

[Phil Thien]

One helpful person updated the form to make it fillable (duh!). I have posted it at the same download location:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/dc1100.pdf

[michael gallagher]

I'll take one of the .5 ones.

[David Parker]

Here is some additional info I've found on the settling velocity of wood dust.

Settling velocity (cm/sec) = 0.003 X specific gravity X diameter squared (in microns)

(Note: the specific gravity of wood dust ranges from .5 to .9 depending on the wood type and moisture content. The National Toxicology Program uses a value of 0.56, which I'll use by default.)

Particle Size (microns) _ Settling Velocity (cm/sec) _ Time to fall 100 cm (in still air)

50 ___________________ 4.2 ____________________ 23.8 sec
10 ___________________ 0.168 __________________ 10 min
5.0 __________________ 0.042 ___________________ 40 min
2.5 __________________ 0.010 ___________________ 2.8 hrs
1 .0 _________________ 0.0017 __________________ 16 hrs
0.5 __________________ 0.0004 __________________ 2.9 days

Once you get down below the 0.5 micron range, settling velocity no longer is valid, as Brownian motion will keep the particles up longer.

[Phil Thien]

I'll take one of the .5 ones.

You can to download the form and following the instructions:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/dc1100.pdf

[Phil Thien]

Here is some additional info I've found on the settling velocity of wood dust.

Settling velocity (cm/sec) = 0.003 X specific gravity X diameter squared (in microns)

(Note: the specific gravity of wood dust ranges from .5 to .9 depending on the wood type and moisture content. The National Toxicology Program uses a value of 0.56, which I'll use by default.)

Particle Size (microns) _ Settling Velocity (cm/sec) _ Time to fall 100 cm (in still air)

50 ___________________ 4.2 ____________________ 23.8 sec
10 ___________________ 0.168 __________________ 10 min
5.0 __________________ 0.042 ___________________ 40 min
2.5 __________________ 0.010 ___________________ 2.8 hrs
1 .0 _________________ 0.0017 __________________ 16 hrs
0.5 __________________ 0.0004 __________________ 2.9 days

Once you get down below the 0.5 micron range, settling velocity no longer is valid, as Brownian motion will keep the particles up longer.

That is very interesting, so having air movement and additional filtering would be the unknown. My experiments indicate that my 1.0 and larger dust count settles in < .5 hours.

Can you tell me where you found that data? Like a link (I'm lazy).

Thanks!

[Greg Funk]

That is very interesting, so having air movement and additional filtering would be the unknown. My experiments indicate that my 1.0 and larger dust count settles in < .5 hours.

The short settling time you observed may indicate that most of the particles you generated were significantly larger than 1 micron which is consistent with published research on particle size distributions.

Were you running your air filter at the time?

Greg

[Thom Sturgill]

I want one too. Probably the .5 model with recording capability. I'm also interested in what you think about the fine dust filter as I just ordered one. There is an asthmatic in the house where my shop is located. (My daughter's garage.)

As a side note about the cancer link, my father was a lifelong woodworker (and a smoker), and died of lung cancer. I don't doubt that the cigarettes caused the cancer, but I believe that the wood dust at least contributed.

[Phil Thien]

The short settling time you observed may indicate that most of the particles you generated were significantly larger than 1 micron which is consistent with published research on particle size distributions.

Were you running your air filter at the time?

Greg

Not initially. Just the furnace. There was air movement. I could nix that, though.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

As I was standing in my 40 degree garage shop last night (shivering) I got to wondering if the meter works in extreme conditions (low or high temp, high humidty). I could not find tech specs in a quick look at the Dylos site, so if somebody can point me to them, or if you can ask them, how the unit will perform in an uncondtioned outdoor space that would be helpful.

Thanks!

Just spoke w/ Roger and he said the main concern is condensation. 40-degrees is pretty cold but he has used them at 45 w/ no problem. All bets off at freezing, though.

[Phil Thien]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your efforts. Is it possible to order the 0.5 / 5 micron version that they typically sell?

Just spoke w/ Roger and if you want to cross-out the .5/2.5 and write-in .5/5 on the same line (leaving the same price), then that would be fine with him.

[Greg Pavlov]

I have spoken to Dylos and they have agreed to a group purchase. Kim will even individually ship the units to each purchaser for 2% above actual UPS (doesn't get any better than that). .....
Please include me for the .5 version. Thanks...

[Phil Thien]

Please include me for the .5 version. Thanks...

Should someone sit down and E-Mail all the respondents a link to the form so they know how to proceed? I'm worried that some people don't realize we've moved from talking about the orders to actually placing the orders? :confused:

[Greg Funk]

Should someone sit down and E-Mail all the respondents a link to the form so they know how to proceed? I'm worried that some people don't realize we've moved from talking about the orders to actually placing the orders? :confused:
Phil,

I think you've done enough without having to babysit everyone.

You could update the title of this thread and include a mention of the group buy and then include the basic instructions in the first post. In addition, perhaps the moderators could be persuaded to make the Group Buy thread a sticky until Monday.

Greg

[Kerry Cox]

I was just pointed to this thread from another forum. I'm quite interested in getting in on this group buy and have downloaded the form.

A couple of questions:
Should we indicate SC on the form somewhere?
Can we fill out the form and send it via email (pdf) rather than faxing? (I have a perhaps irrational fear of faxing CC info.)

Sorry if this was answered above, but I didn't see it.

Cheers,
Kerry

[Phil Thien]

I was just pointed to this thread from another forum. I'm quite interested in getting in on this group buy and have downloaded the form.

A couple of questions:
Should we indicate SC on the form somewhere?
Can we fill out the form and send it via email (pdf) rather than faxing? (I have a perhaps irrational fear of faxing CC info.)

Sorry if this was answered above, but I didn't see it.

Cheers,
Kerry

You could E-Mail the completed form to support@dylosproducts.com, but I assure you faxing a CC # is safer than E-mailing it. I have verified the fax # several times, and I have verified that they are receiving the forms via fax, as well.

No need to put SC on the form. When we're all done I may take a small poll to find out where people heard about the offer.

I would like to have group buys in the future, and having that data will tell me where to concentrate my efforts.

[David Parker]

"Can you tell me where you found that data? "

I calculated the settling velocities from a formula given within a Utah State University public health course lecture by Dave Wallace. You can find his PowerPoint presentation online at
www.biology.usu.edu/courses/pubh4310/2005/Lct%206%20Dust%20PUBH%204310%20DW.ppt (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/www.biology.usu.edu/courses/pubh4310/2005/Lct%206%20Dust%20PUBH%204310%20DW.ppt)
The formula is on slide 10.

A more detailed mathematical derivation can be found at http://www.nzifst.org.nz/unitoperations/mechseparation3.htm. This gives similar results.

[John Newell]

Am on the fence concerning the PC logging. Nice feature but not sure I'll use it and a 33% premium for something I may never hook up seems like it might be better spent on...other tools. <scratches head>

[Phil Thien]

Am on the fence concerning the PC logging. Nice feature but not sure I'll use it and a 33% premium for something I may never hook up seems like it might be better spent on...other tools. <scratches head>

The typical tool-buying conundrum.

[Steve Busey]

I saw one website where the guy interfaced the DC1100 with a relay to turn on a fan when dust reaches a preprogrammed level. I assume the same relay interface could be done with a DC or shop air filter, but I can't tell - is that a native ability of the DC1100 (setting a level to switch on) or did that guy do some internal mods? Anyone know? If so, $100 is not a bad way to go...

[Ronald Thompson]

Just a note. This guy is posting on multiple web sites about this offer. I didn't read all the posts, but I didn't see any up front statements. While this might be an legitiment deal, but I thought you might like to know.
Ron

[Lee DeRaud]

Just a note. This guy is posting on multiple web sites about this offer. I didn't read all the posts, but I didn't see any up front statements. While this might be an legitiment deal, but I thought you might like to know.
RonBy "this guy", do you mean Phil? He said he was discussing this on other forums. (Hint: this isn't the only WW forum on the net.)

FWIW, the fax number does indeed translate to Riverside, CA, where Dylos is located...Phil is located somewhere back east IIRC.

[Eric Gustafson]

Just a note. This guy is posting on multiple web sites about this offer. I didn't read all the posts, but I didn't see any up front statements. While this might be an legitiment deal, but I thought you might like to know.
Ron

I had a panic attack when I read this. I called a retail outlet that sells them in Austin. The sales person there verifed to me that the FAX number on the form is the same she uses when placing orders from Kim at Dylos.

[Phil Thien]

Just a note. This guy is posting on multiple web sites about this offer. I didn't read all the posts, but I didn't see any up front statements. While this might be an legitiment deal, but I thought you might like to know.
Ron

I think I've been up-front. :confused:

This entire deal is structured so all the important data is transmitted by the participants directly to the manufacturer. The manufacturer will ship directly to the participants. There is no opportunity on my part to get at any personal/CC information except for a name, E-Mail address, and phone # that each person ordering sends to me (so I can make sure Dylos doesn't miss any of the faxes, and to track our progress in hitting the 25-piece minimum). And, sending me that data is purely optional.

Someone at another site mentioned a group buy would be a good idea, and I have some experience in that regard. Also, I thought it would be handy to get these into the hands of other woodworkers so we can compare results (especially what works to reduce airborne dust). The more, the better.

I did post at other woodworking sites after I was done creating the form in case any people reading those sites don't visit this one. I didn't want anyone to miss out.

I don't know what else to say. Not only have I structured this so it is safe, I'm not making any money or anything else. No commissions. Nothing. No free meters. In fact, when we're all done, I will have paid more for my meter than anyone else because I paid full list for the first one that got the ball rolling.

You guys are all getting a better deal than I did!

[John L. Carroll]

It is great that interest in this is so high. However, I don't understand why anyone wants the DC1100 unit to read out anything other than the standard 1 micron and 5 micron particle sizes.

The particle size for maximum alveolar-level deposition is 1 micron, with deposition falling off rapidly as particle size goes below 1 micron. The particle size for maximum deposition in the large airways (bronchi) is 5 microns.

I guess my main point is that the standard 1/5 micron option seems optimal, so why would anyone want (for woodworking) anything else?

-jc

[Mark Carlson]

Phil,

I was wondering when the old adage "no good dead goes unpunished" proved true.

I bought a .5/2.5 unit and was going to send you pm thanking you for all the leg work in organizing this group purchase. I've seen this attempted many times but never carried out. Thanks again.

~mark

[Lee DeRaud]

The particle size for maximum alveolar-level deposition is 1 micron, with deposition falling off rapidly as particle size goes below 1 micron. The particle size for maximum deposition in the large airways (bronchi) is 5 microns.

I guess my main point is that the standard 1/5 micron option seems optimal, so why would anyone want (for woodworking) anything else?Uh, because we didn't know that? (Or at least not the "deposition falling off rapidly as particle size goes below 1 micron" part.)

More seriously, if we have measurements at 0.5um and 5.0um (or at least that's the one I ordered), can we assume that the measurements at intermediate sizes are roughly linear to those? Various portions of my lungs may grab onto these things nonlinearly, but I don't think saw blades, router bits, or sandpaper know that.

[Lee DeRaud]

(Following up on my previous post...)
From the Dylos website:

"These numbers represent the number of small(fine) and large(coarse) particles detected. They are a running average of the particles counted in the past 10 seconds. The number on the left is the small particle count and the number on the right is the large particle count. The numbers are approximately what a 12 year old would inhale in a single breath. The small particles can include fine dust, bacteria, mold, smoke, etc. (from approximately 1um and up). The large particles can include coarse dust, pollen, dust mite casings, etc. (from approximately 5um and up)."

(I assume this statement relates to the 1.0/5.0um meter, since everything else they talk about does.)

So the "small particle" count actually covers a range from the nominal "low" threshold to the nominal "high" threshold, in this case from 1.0um to 5.0um. If we care about a distribution of particle sizes centered at 1.0um (which is how I interpret what John said), don't we really want to start measuring at a smaller size than 1.0um?

[Phil Thien]

It is great that interest in this is so high. However, I don't understand why anyone wants the DC1100 unit to read out anything other than the standard 1 micron and 5 micron particle sizes.

The particle size for maximum alveolar-level deposition is 1 micron, with deposition falling off rapidly as particle size goes below 1 micron. The particle size for maximum deposition in the large airways (bronchi) is 5 microns.

I guess my main point is that the standard 1/5 micron option seems optimal, so why would anyone want (for woodworking) anything else?

-jc

Brownian diffusion dominates the transport of small particles http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6V6B-4MTK97D-1-7R/0?wchp=dGLbVtz-zSkWW (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MathURL&_method=retrieve&_udi=B6V6B-4MTK97D-1&_mathId=mml36&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=68f445e28096fb914de927c9adc2a7af), while gravitational sedimentation dominates the transport of large particles http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6V6B-4MTK97D-1-7S/0?wchp=dGLbVtz-zSkWW (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MathURL&_method=retrieve&_udi=B6V6B-4MTK97D-1&_mathId=mml37&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=60308a9a63d209ce325e0bfa927a12fe). Mid-size particles http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6V6B-4MTK97D-1-7T/0?wchp=dGLbVtz-zSkWW (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MathURL&_method=retrieve&_udi=B6V6B-4MTK97D-1&_mathId=mml38&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=b83569ee663fe87ea0d9e722769b7ad4) experience slower diffusion and slower sedimentation transport, so their time to impaction is maximized.

BTW, link here (I'm not smart enough to have written that :)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6B-4MTK97D-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6ed81ad886b003473815cd87be6f3f13

[David Parker]

It is great that interest in this is so high. However, I don't understand why anyone wants the DC1100 unit to read out anything other than the standard 1 micron and 5 micron particle sizes.

-jc

You are correct in this, and I've sat here trying to decide which one to order. While 1 micron is an optimal size for alveolar deposition, 0.5 micron particles will also deposit. Plus, the 0.5 micron particles have a much longer settling time, so are more likely to persist in the air. They are also more difficult to filter out. Therefore, as a "litmus" test for air quality, if the 0.5 to 2.5 micron particle count is down, you know you have decent air. That being said, I doubt there is going to be any practical difference whether you monitor the 0.5 - 2.5 micron count vs. the 1 - 5 micron count.


For those who may have missed it:
The 1/5 micron version of this device will display a count of all particles 1 micron and larger, and will also display a count of all particles 5 microns and larger. You can subtract the two to figure out how many are in the 1 to 5 micron range.

With the 0.5/2.5 version, it will display a count of all particles 0.5 microns and larger as well as a count of all particles 2.5 microns and larger.

There is also a 0.5/5 version available for the same price as the 0.5/2.5

[David Parker]

Phil,

I also wanted to thank you for organizing this. I'm relatively new to this forum, so I wasn't aware that these "group buys" weren't a common occurrence. At some of the other non woodworking forums I belong to (such as CandlePower Forums for the flashlight crowd), group buys are quite common.

Dave

[Rob Will]

I think I've been up-front. :confused:

Hey Phil, I would not give this a second thought. You have done a remarkable job of putting this together. I thought it was clear and straight forward from the very beginning.

Thanks,
Rob

[Wayne Watling]

Phil,

I wouldn't take those comments above personally, for some people its difficult to know what is genuine and what is not on the internet (I think you know all this but its good to state it).
To those who are unsure about these types of group buys, it pays to do your own due diligence until you feel confident enough to join in.
Some things to consider:

- The organiser, in this case 'Phil' has been a member of this forum for over a year now and has contributed with over 400 (mostly quality :) posts.

- Phil has received one of the units and tested it and has confirmed the unit functions as advertised. - this tells us something very important about Dylos.

- I have personally received several high quality answers to questions from Kim at Dylos.

- According to another post I read their fax number points back to the address on their web site.


When I take into account all of the above I feel confident its the real deal.

Phil, thanks for your help in making this so easy for us, hopefully it will pave the way to more exact information about how dust affects us woodworkers in our shops and homes.

Best,
Wayne

[Phil Thien]

Thanks for the support guys, I'm not letting it get to me at all.

We're up to 29 orders last I checked (few minutes ago).

[michael osadchuk]

......in addition to Rob, Wayne (and others) chiming in with solid reasons why this is "genuine" and "not internet (scam)" there is a several page thread on others experience with this particle counter and the company making that is positive......

www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=150973

I gathering this is a forum primarily of people in the heating, air & refrigeration field and this thread was found on a section called "indoor air quality". The thread starts in early October, 2007 with skepticism over whether such a moderately price counter could fulfill its claims to online discussion with the engineering principal behind Dylos, to those same people getting a hold the counter and making positive assessments of it. The discussion thread peters out toward the end of November; presumeably if the purchased units had a high failure rate, the company didn't stand behind them re servicing, etc., those same people likely would have also posted that experience as well......
this hvac-talk forum may also have some useful "insider" information on air filtering processes, products like filters, etc.
I can't recall whether I picked up this from a link within the discussion on Sawmill Creek, if so, I apologize for not being able to remember who to credit

thanks,
michael

[Todd Franks]

Thanks for the support guys, I'm not letting it get to me at all.

We're up to 29 orders last I checked (few minutes ago).

Thanks Phil, we all appreciate you organizing this. You have definitely gone beyond what most would have done for no personal gain. We know it's the real deal. Maybe we can talk Keith into "rigging" one of the FreeStuff Drawings for you;)

[Will Blick]

Its too bad the OP did not investigate a bit more.... i know his intentions where probably good, but at the same time, he was risking offending Phil. And considering what he has done to bring this forward, and not make a dime, well, I would have been more careful before posting such.

Thanks again Phil.... and btw, is Dylos waiting for all the orders to arrive, then ship them all after Monday? What is the count up to now?

[Will Blick]

oops, sorry, cross post, i missed the 29 count....

[Rob Will]

I saw one website where the guy interfaced the DC1100 with a relay to turn on a fan when dust reaches a preprogrammed level. I assume the same relay interface could be done with a DC or shop air filter, but I can't tell - is that a native ability of the DC1100 (setting a level to switch on) or did that guy do some internal mods? Anyone know? If so, $100 is not a bad way to go...

Hey Steve, you think you can find that website again?
Interesting.

Rob

[Steve Leverich]

Rob, it's probably this one

http://www.americanallergysupply.com/cleanair-stat.htm

but it's not clear whether there's an auxiliary output on the DC1100, or exactly HOW the relay is switched... Steve

[Phil Thien]

Thanks again Phil.... and btw, is Dylos waiting for all the orders to arrive, then ship them all after Monday? What is the count up to now?

Yeah, they were waiting until they had all the orders to verify our discount level. I'm not sure how long after that before they start shipping them. I suspect that, since they are getting orders for all different configurations, that they will ship in batches. But I don't know that for sure.

[Steve Busey]

Rob, it's probably this one

http://www.americanallergysupply.com/cleanair-stat.htm

but it's not clear whether there's an auxiliary output on the DC1100, or exactly HOW the relay is switched... Steve

That's the one I saw. I just sent an email to Dylos asking that question - will let you know what I hear back.

[John L. Carroll]

Uh, because we didn't know that? (Or at least not the "deposition falling off rapidly as particle size goes below 1 micron" part.)

More seriously, if we have measurements at 0.5um and 5.0um (or at least that's the one I ordered), can we assume that the measurements at intermediate sizes are roughly linear to those? Various portions of my lungs may grab onto these things nonlinearly, but I don't think saw blades, router bits, or sandpaper know that.

Lee... I see your point. I was referring to the maximum deposition in alveoli of the lung (1 micron) and bronchi (5 micron). There's good documentation that deposition is non linear. Particles smaller than 1 micron are have so little mass, that they are breathed in but are large proportion are breathed right back out.

In any case, the point that this unit is reporting particles larger than 1 (or 0.5 if that's the unit you ordered) means that it is probably just fine for our purposes here. I agree with the point that it probably doesn't matter whether you get the 0.5/5 or the 1/5, etc... I guess the only differential there is cost.

-jc

[Rob Will]

Rob, it's probably this one

http://www.americanallergysupply.com/cleanair-stat.htm

but it's not clear whether there's an auxiliary output on the DC1100, or exactly HOW the relay is switched... Steve

Thanks Steve,
I was thinking about doing the same thng. This should not be too hard once we figure out what the Dylos output signal consists of.

I also once thought about switching the DC on with a sound pressure switch. When you run a noisy power tool, the DC comes on. A time delay relay keeps it running for a set period of time.

Rob

[Lee DeRaud]

I also once thought about switching the DC on with a sound pressure switch. When you run a noisy power tool, the DC comes on. A time delay relay keeps it running for a set period of time.
Sensor placement and calibration issues could make that a lot of fun to set up: my compressor is louder than my bandsaw, but I don't usually use dust-collection for my brad nailer.:p

[Steve Busey]

Just heard back from Dylos, asking about the American Allergy version that fires a relay:
[Begin]
We did do that unit as a custom order. This version also has a menu which allows the user to &quot;set his air quality&quot; - that is, he can go to this menu and select an option - say 250 and the DC1100 will turn on the fan when the air quality exceeds this level. If you would like pricing on that model please contact American allergy supply.

We also have in the works a similar unit to the above, but it uses a wireless link to turn the house fan on (on houses with good filters this can serve as a pretty good air purifier) when the particle concentration rises above a user selected level. This unit is a standard DC1100, but with a radio transmitter added - in addition there is a receiver module which connects to the fan control box. Installation is very simple as there are only 3 wires to connect - it should take 20 minutes perhaps. The total cost for this hasn't been set yet, but if you are interested we can offer it to you for $350 for both the DC1100 and the receiver modules.
[End]

[Steve Leverich]

"Thanks Steve,
I was thinking about doing the same thng. This should not be too hard once we figure out what the Dylos output signal consists of.

I also once thought about switching the DC on with a sound pressure switch. When you run a noisy power tool, the DC comes on. A time delay relay keeps it running for a set period of time."

Rob, you're welcome - first, I'm not sure yet (I emailed Roger about a downloadable manual but he said it's not available online yet, so I've no idea what connections there may be available.

Second, about DC control in the shop - I don't like ANY of the ways I've read about here - the idea of turning the DC on and off every time a power tool gets used is not acceptable to me - I don't like buying new motors for things unnecessarily, and a bunch of on-off cycles will pretty much ensure short life. I've just started looking for reasonably priced automatable blast gates, and when I get that part "nailed down" I intend to buy one of the low-end PLC's (referred to as "bricks" in industry, where I work as an automation/control tech) - a VERY simple program in a PLC with maybe 16 in's and as many outs will let me set the DC up so that I manually power up the DC - when that motor is sensed to be running, it will automagically open the blast gate to the floor sweep - then when any other tool is sensed (toroids, 1 per tool) the PLC will open that gate and close the floor sweep. That way, there's always a similar load on the DC motor, I can sweep the shop if I need to, and since I wear foam earplugs 99% of the time anyway the noise won't be a problem. So far I doubt this will be as expensive as the "green box" setup because I think I can do blast gates with actuators for around $50-60, not the $100 or so the "green box" people want. Also, the "brain" won't cost that much either - probably around $300 or so. I'll also set a timer in the PLC so if it doesn't see a tool actuated in a certain amount of time it'll shut down.

Please don't ask me for any more particulars yet, because aside from the gates themselves I've not nailed anything down... Steve

[Phil Thien]

We're up to 38 orders. If we hit fifty by end of business Monday we can get the 38% discount instead of 35%. I think we're really close to that.

To order yours, use this form:
http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/dc1100.pdf

[Fred Linthicum]

I may have missed it, but haven't seen any test results posted from Dylos cutting MDF. Also, is any more info available regarding how the communication feature operates? I'm trying to decide between the .5u and 1u version, and also between a standalone vs. data logging version.

TIA,
Fred

[Phil Thien]

I may have missed it, but haven't seen any test results posted from Dylos cutting MDF. Also, is any more info available regarding how the communication feature operates? I'm trying to decide between the .5u and 1u version, and also between a standalone vs. data logging version.

TIA,
Fred

Read post #78 in this thread for Dylos MDF data. The data logging feature sends a reading every minute via a serial port. No software is included, you have to capture via something similar to HyperTerminal. You can save the data and then import into something like Excel for graphing/analysis.

[Phil Thien]

We're up to about 48 units guys. Once we hit 50 out discount goes from 35 to 38%.

[Tony Mannucci]

I ordered a .5 /2.5 micron monitor. But after reading a number of posts, I believe it might be easy to write a short program which will take the Dylos DC1100 output and use that to control an air purification system. Anyone else believe so?

What is the count so far?

[Fred Linthicum]

I also ordered, so that would put us up to at least 50! Thanks again to Phil for making this happen!!!
Fred

[Rob Steinle]

Phil,

Thanks for your great effort on this.
Guess I'll go for the .5 / 5 Micron version

Thanks again,

Rob

[Phil Thien]

Last call for orders, I'm starting the list for Dylos. If you want to order please send your fax in and E-Mail me your data.

We're over 70 units.

[Phil Thien]

Looks like we hit approx. 93 units.

I'll provide some info here when they start to ship.

[Will Blick]

Phil, on another forum, you showed some Dylos results on outside air in Houston IIRC. What should be interesting is how high the particle count is on a windy day or a high traffic area.... vs. what our shops read. Have you gotten any prelim. feedback on this issue?

Since we will have a 100 users in the field, it would be nice if we had a permanent sticky post, that we can all enter data of both mild days, windy days, high traffic areas, as well as our shops. Is this possible? Heck, if outdoor air pollution is equally as bad as our shop, many of us were probably over reacting. (not suggesting we should not still protect ourselves) The reason I suggest this is.... during desert windstorms, I always feel like crap... i am sure the particle count is amazingly high... should be interesting.

What do you think? Is there a central place we can dump data for all to see?

[Phil Thien]

What do you think? Is there a central place we can dump data for all to see?

I don't have any control over what they do at smc. I could create a forum where stuff could get posted, but then people at smc that don't have meters wouldn't really see it because you can't link to other forums.

Also, more than 1/2 of the sales came from members of other forums. Those people may or may not visit smc. So that complicates things a little.

So I'm not sure what the solution is.

[John Newell]

Got an email today saying my unit had been shipped on Friday via UPS, with a tracking number. Thumbs up to Kim and Phil - thanks!

[michael osadchuk]

.......and I also received an email from Kim of Dylos on Friday, Feb. 1st, advising that my 1/5 micron monitor had been shipped that day, via US Postal Service to my Canadian location.....

michael,
newmarket, ontario

[Kerry Cox]

Just wondering whether I'm the only one who hasn't heard anything from Dylos yet? Maybe the large order put them behind?

Kerry

[Wayne Watling]

Kerry,

I suspect it should be any day now, just got my notification this morning. If you really feel the need to check up then there is no harm in shooting off a quick email to Kim at Dylos but it should not be long now.

Wayne

[Phil Thien]

Just wondering whether I'm the only one who hasn't heard anything from Dylos yet? Maybe the large order put them behind?

Kerry

You are "on the list," so to speak. Roger and Kim are working furiously to get them all built/shipped.

[Kerry Cox]

Thanks Phil, I did get an email shortly after your post and I rec'd the unit last Saturday. I finally got a chance to try it out today - pretty neat little machine. It seems quite sensitive. I hadn't been in my basement workshop for a week and when I started the unit it read around 330 for the <0.5µm particles. After I worked on a leg with rasps it rose to around 800 or so. When I did some hand sanding it rose to 1200. I had the unit about 10 -12ft away from where I was working. I turned on my sanding table/air cleaner and over the next 15 minutes it was back down to just under 300.

It'll be interesting to see what it says when running power tools.

Kerry