First Post and Common Table Saw question

[Brian Fulkerson]

Hello everyone, This is my first post to the forum after months of reading everyone else's threads. I appreciate all the valuable information I have gathered from many of you.

Last year I purchased a Delta Hybrid saw as a good compromise between the inexpensive table saws and the large cabinet saws. At the time, I figured that I would be doing generic projects around the house like shelving, back yard decking, and generic cabinetry. In fact, my interests in woodworking have grown exponentially. My first real project was a jewelery box for my wife for this last Christmas. Made from Bubinga and Maple. My second project was the infamous cutting board (Maple and Purpleheart) that most of us has probably seen from The Wood Whisperer. The photos that I have exceed the memory requirement for the site. I will try to get other pictures that work in later threads.


Here is my dilemma:

With the exception to my table saw, I feel that I am growing my shop very well. Unfortunately, as I have been cutting various hardwoods as large as 8/4, the table saw bogs down constantly. Because I have a desire to continue using exotic hardwoods, i feel the need to upgrade my saw. In fact, i want to purchase my last saw. I made a big enough mistake on the Hybrid. There are SO many reviews, articles and brochures to read that they have made me more confused than anything. I am considering these big contenders; Delta, Jet, Powermatic, and General. I have not decided on new or used yet, however I am leaning towards new knowing that it will be the last saw that I buy.

More specifically, here are the models:

Delta Unisaw
Jet Deluxe Xacta
Powermatic - PM2000 or Model 66
General 650

(The Saw Stop is just too darn expensive) My budget is right around a max of $2,000

I would appreciate imput from any of you who directly use these machines. Also, any other ideas would be appreciated. No better advice than from the horses mouth, right?

Happy woodworking!!

Brian

[Les Heinen]

Brian,

I purchased a PM 2000 about a year ago. Had a problem with the arbor lock snapping off which I am working to get fixed and struggled with the riving knife until I finally realized that one shouldn't use a blade less than 1/8". Unfortunately, my collection of saw blades were from the BORG and were all thinner..not quite a TK blade. I now have to reinvest in a new TS blade collection.


Everything else about the PM2000 is up to and in some cases exceeds my expectations. The dust collection is phenominal compared to what I had; the built in caster system works like a champ; assembly was a snap; everything which was to be perpendicular was- everything which was supposed to be parallel was (excepting the fence top as mentioned)- no fine tuning required; the power switch is located exactly where I need it to power off without fumbling around; the extension table with the router lift is a God send; Tops are flat and true; Passes the nickel test with flying colors; I have even grown to like the color!!

I got mine with the router extension table which frees up some of my limited shop space and with a hardboard cover, it also serves as a layout table.

Any of the TS's you listed are good and will probably serve you well.

Best Regards,

Les Heinen

[George Bregar]

Good luck ending the confusion, as you will have to sift through these same varied answers and opinions. All are good saws as Les said. Me, I would buy used, especially for PM and Delta. You can still get the last saw you will ever have. More money for other tools or expensive exotic hardwoods.

[Paul Gatti]

First of all WELCOME to Sawmill Creek!

I'm assuming that you have a 1.75 HP motor in your current hybrid saw correct? You might want to try a few things first before dropping $2K on a new saw. I have a 1956 Unisaw with a 1.5 HP motor that works well on thicker hardwoods. The two things I did that really helped were changing the motor to run on on 220 instead of 120 and switching to a high quality thin kerf blade (Forrest Woodworker II). Also, when cutting thicker hardwoods, I make sure to slow down that rate which I feed wood into the saw.

I don't know how my old Unisaw motor compares to the motor on your hybrid quality-wise, so these might not help, but it could be worth a try.

If you do decide to buy a new saw, I would look at either a delta Unisaw with a 3 to 5 HP motor or the new Grizzly G0651 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-5-HP-3-Phase-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-riving-knife/G0652). The Grizzly is an interesting saw. It comes with a 3HP motor, riving knife, 52" Biesemeyer style fence, and it includes the extension and outfeed tables, all for $1839 ($1695 Saw + $144 Shipping). All the Powermatic cabinet saws I've seen are over $2K new.

As George mentioned, the third option is to look for a high quality used PM or Delta saw.

[George Bregar]

The two things I did that really helped were changing the motor to run on on 220 instead of 120 and switching to a high quality thin kerf blade (Forrest Woodworker II). Also, when cutting thicker hardwoods, I make sure to slow down that rate which I feed wood into the saw. THin kerf and slower feed rate, yes. Switching to 240 will have no effect.

[Paul Gatti]

Thin kerf and slower feed rate, yes. Switching to 240 will have no effect.

Maybe it's just my imagination, but my saw seems to run stronger since I switched to 240.

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Brian,
I have used the unisaw and the pm66 for several years. Both will slice any 8/4 wood you have with a 3HP motor.

Definitely look for used. Not only will you have $$, but you will probably get a better saw. There have been several threads on the board about what to look for when buying a used saw.

If you don't already have a rip blade, it would be worth trying that before you invest in a new saw.

[Sean Kinn]

Maybe it's just my imagination, but my saw seems to run stronger since I switched to 240.

Here's my $0.02 based on my situation. You never realize how circuits may be run in your house until you start messing with high current drawing machines and popping breakers. As it turns out, in my townhouse the 1 (yes 1) outlet I have in the garage also seems to be on the same circuit as the lighting in the garage and adjacent hallway. Does this meet code...I don't know. But based on other stuff I've found that the builder did, it doesn't surprise me.

So, if I want max performance out of my router or crappy bt3100 I have to run a 12ga cord out into the garage from another circuit. I think this may be the case for a lot of folks (too much draw on a 15a circuit), and when they have a new 240v line put in, or tap into the dryer outlet they aren't competing with other loads on the circuit.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Brian, I have owned a General 650 for 6 years and am very pleased with the saw.

It is smooth, powerful, accurate and repeatable.

The saw is made in Canada which was a selling point for me.

The saw came with a General T fence (Biessemeyer) and has a 50 inch rip capacity. General produced one for me with a 32 inch rip capacity as I have a small shop.

I added an Excalibur overarm guard and Merlin splitter to mine.

The machining, fit and finish are in my opinion superior to the Unisaw.

Regards, Rod.

[glenn bradley]

I'm glad to see someone else recommend something other than dropping a couple grand on a new saw. I have a 1 3/4HP hybrid and routinely cut 6/4 and 8/4 lumber without trouble. I run Freud TK blades and use the appropriate blade for the task; 24T rip, 80T x-cut, etc.

I run the saw at 110v on a dedicated 20a circuit. This was a definite improvement from running it on a shared circuit with the lights (duh). Other things that may contribute to the bogging could be feed rate, no wax on the table / fence or setup issues. I do notice the Delta rated lower on power compared to the Steel City and the Sears hybrids although the HP ratings are the same and the saws are close in design. Not sure why that would be but, I would definitely try some tuning before I just threw money at the issue. It would really hurt to drop the cash and still have the same basic problems.

[Brian Fulkerson]

Is the riving knife that is included with the Jet and powermatic worth it, or can i get the same performance from models like the PM 66, and unisaw that has an aftermarket splitter? The downside that I have seen is that the slitter is fixed on these models and cannot be used for as may cut aplications.

[Danny Thompson]

I agree with several others that a think kerf blade makes a big difference. If you think about it, a thinner kerf blade is easier to get up to speed (and get back up to speed under a load) and presents less friction during the cut (think about a fillet knife v. a butcher knife).

[George Bregar]

I agree with several others that a think kerf blade makes a big difference. If you think about it, a thinner kerf blade is easier to get up to speed (and get back up to speed under a load) and presents less friction during the cut (think about a fillet knife v. a butcher knife). It does but not for the reasons you describe. First, the ease of getting the blade up to speed is moot...the blade should be up to speed before the cut is made. Second, a think kerf blade has less mass, so it actually can be slowed easier under load. It's the fact that it is removing less material that allows it to keep its speed. It's doing less work.

[Brian Fulkerson]

As a quick note, I am very meticulous about table saw maintenance. The table is frequently lubricated with paste wax, and I keep my blades aligned, clean, and sharp. Including the fence. Durring my cutting board project, I had many problems avoiding burn marks on my 8/4 Maple and purpleheart. I had to stop the saw on various occations because the saw blade slowed down WAY too much. On one occation, it even stopped. Very scarry!!

Evidence is pointing to a simply underpowered saw. Though

[Lawrence Smith]

I purchased a used PM66 several years ago for $825. I believe it will be the last saw that I will ever have to purchase. Remember, new or used the quality always remains. I constantly scan the local CL for used machinery. There are some great bargains out there. Use the savings from not having to buy a new saw on other "goodies". Buying top of the line used equipment makes sense to me.

My $.02

[David G Baker]

Paul,
The difference in performance between the 120v and the 220v supply may not be your imagination. It could be the supply wire size and/or length. If the wire size used to power your 120v setup was undersized or to long your motor may not have performed as well. Running 220v down the same size wire and the same length of wire as the 120v line may give you better performance. There is a certain amount of loss in under sized wire or long wire runs.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I used to own a contractor saw. It bogged down easily. I switched to a 12 gauge extension cord and the difference was like night and day. Could this same thing be at least a part of your problem???

[Brian Fulkerson]

The saw is currently wired to 220v without an extension cord.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

THin kerf and slower feed rate, yes. Switching to 240 will have no effect.


Switching to 240 could have a positive effect IF the circuit he's using it on is overloaded. If you could have a dedicated 120/240 volt circuit, that would give you the best performance. Otherwise I agree on the 120 vs. 240 aspect. Are there lights or anything else on the circuit now?

I have a Delta CS that I switched to 240 and MAN WHAT A DIFFERENCE. That motor just bangs to life now with much less time to come up to speed and has all the power I need. But the problem was I was previously using it on a 120 circuit that had too many things running on it simultaneously.

[George Bregar]

Here we go again. A circuit provides a specific amount of amps based on total load. Once that total load exceeds the breaker limit, the breaker pops and shuts down. It does not limit any specific load. Running 240 will not provide more power. What will effect it is the wiring...distance and gauge...so running less current over 240 can have some effect, but in almost every case is negligible.

[Jesse Cloud]

The photos that I have exceed the memory requirement for the site. I will try to get other pictures that work in later threads.

Hey Brian,
On this issue, just download the free pixresizer program at

http://bluefive.pair.com/

It will reduce the size of your pic (and lessen quality a little) and let you save the smaller pic in another file.

Jess

[Robert Conner]

I think there is no denying it you need a Cabinet Saw with a 3HP motor.
Those who have mentioned older Unisaws with 1 1/2 HP motors that have enough power are comparing Apples to Oranges those older motors were either rated differently and had such heavy arbors the the momentum would carry them thru.
If you look at the insides of the Cabinet saws you will see larger bearings and components, they are made for continuous cutting of all types of wood and will take whatever is thrown at them.
Contractor saws were designed to be taken to and from job sites, (although there is some overlap).
That is not to say that a Contractor saw will not do a great job and make perfect cuts.
Think of a 1500 series vs a 2500 series pickup truck. No matter how you outfit the 1500 it will not do the Heavy Duty job the 2500 will. Try pulling a 6500 lbs trailer with the 1500, at those upper limits it will pull, but not for the long haul.
I agree that there are great buys out there on Used 3HP Cabinet Saws. With a little patience you can find one in the $600-$1000 range in perfect condition.
Just my Opinion!
Robert

[Steveo O'Banion]

Well, at work I have a 3 phase 5 HP Rockwell unisaw and a Delta 10" TS I dedicate as a dado saw. All I can say is bring it on there, but...

Home is a little different. I have a 1950's 9" delta bench saw with an old washing machine motor :o (you all can quite laughing now) that I bought 20 years ago fromn a retired engineer. I purchased a very nice Amana TS blade that I keep sharp. With an appropriate feed rate I can cut 4/4 hardwood stock including bubinga and purple heart, even had ebony, pink ivory and snakewood on it.

Key words here are sharp high quality blade and appropriate feed rate.

I passed on a chance to buy at school auction a HUMONGUS gang arbor saw, 48" x 60" sliding table, 5 HP 3 phase, it weighed 3500 pounds. IF I could have found a way to get it home, I had no place to put it.

So the little Delta has it's place. Maybe your hybrid does too.

[Greg Funk]

Here we go again. A circuit provides a specific amount of amps based on total load. Once that total load exceeds the breaker limit, the breaker pops and shuts down. It does not limit any specific load. Running 240 will not provide more power. What will effect it is the wiring...distance and gauge...so running less current over 240 can have some effect, but in almost every case is negligible.
For a large motor the difference between 240 and 120V supplies is not negligible. A large motor will start-up substantially quicker on 240 than it will on 120V.

For example, take a 1 1/2HP motor located 50 ft away from the panel and powered by 14 AWG wire. It is not uncommon for motors to draw 6x their full load current on startup which could be 90A for 110V and 45A for 220V power. The resistance of the wire is about .25 ohm yielding a voltage drop of 23V (19%) for the 120V circuit or 11V (5%) for the 240V circuit. That is a substantial difference and it can be even larger if the motor is more than 50ft from the panel. I am pretty sure my house has lots of circuit lengths greater than 50ft although I don't have any large motors running on them.

Greg

[scott spencer]

Hi Brian - I don't want to talk you out of an upgrade, b/c a nice cabinet saw is surely just that....an upgrade. But I am curious as to why your saw is bogging so much. I have a similar Craftsman hybrid and cut 8/4" pretty frequently, and have cut to full blade height on a few occasions. I won't say it doesn't bog at all when cutting hard maple of 2" or more, but it goes through pretty well. I hear similar stories from most hybrid and contractor saw owners.

A couple of things come to mind. I'm wondering if your electrical circuit is up to the task? Switching to 240v won't add power, but if your 120v circuit is inadequate (high voltage loss), the switch to an adequate circuit will have the "appearance" of more power. 240v can improve start up time, and also recovery time when it slows.

Blade selection is more important with a smaller saw. I run a lot of high quality thin kerf blades....Forrest, Infinity, Freud Industrial, Leitz, Ridge Carbide, DeWalt series 40, etc. With thick stock of 8/4" or more, I go for a 24T TK ripper...usually a Leitz or DeWalt.

Alignment is also more important with a smaller saw....might want to double check all the blade to fence, the pulleys, and maybe even belt tension. Be sure your insert is flush and your table waxed.

It's also helpful to flatten and straighten your wood on a jointer and planer prior to ripping thick stuff.

I'm sure you'll never regret an upgrade, but I'm also thinking there's performance "left on the table" with your hybrid.

Good luck!

[Don Bullock]

Brian, since you've ruled out the SawStop I won't go there.

All the saws you listed will do the job and do it well. If possible I'd suggest that you look at each one, in person, and see what visual differences that they have. You should also look into trying as many as possible. Perhaps there are some woodworkers near you who would invite you over to see their saws and cut some wood.

[Rob Will]

Good luck ending the confusion, as you will have to sift through these same varied answers and opinions. All are good saws as Les said. Me, I would buy used, especially for PM and Delta. You can still get the last saw you will ever have. More money for other tools or expensive exotic hardwoods.

What George said: Used PM or Delta.
I would also suggest a 50" Biesemeyer fence.

I'm really glad you posted this because we are always getting a hard time when we recommend buying a cabinet saw. Most everyone here owned a contractor's saw at on time or another:o.

Good luck with your decision.

Rob

[Rob Will]

THin kerf and slower feed rate, yes. Switching to 240 will have no effect.

Oh yes it will if you are experiencing voltage drop. Personally, if given a choice, I would run anything over 3/4 hp on 230V.

Rob

[Brian Fulkerson]

There is no problems with voltage drop. I am running 220v on a deticated 40 amp circuit. Is it safe to say that a 3hp cabinet saw would be better suited, and safer, knowing that I will be ripping thick hardwoods? The Delta Hybrid works wonders with sheet goods and 4/4 stock. Anything more seems to push it to its limits. I fell that if I continue to rip thick hardwoods on this saw, I could be causing a dangerous situation. I have been lucky so far.

[Bob Feeser]

Lets work from the ideal, and then go backward. Ideally you want a blade that is not too thin, and is more vulnerable to warpage however slight. You want to have sufficient power so you can concentrate on the feed rate so as to go slow enough to get a glass smooth clean cut, but not so slow as to burn the wood. If you are dealing with more than enough power, you can concentrate on that, instead of having to concentrate on whatever feed rate the saw will allow, whether it is burning the wood or not. You also would like to be using a blade that is not a 24 tooth to reduce the resistance, because that will give you a less then perfect surface that you either have to sand, leading to uneveness, or joint which can lead to a non paralell width, which may or may not matter. So what I am saying is that a 3hp or greater saw is where you really want to be. Like the others have said, used saws are plentiful and old Delta Unisaw, or a Powermatic 66 is a very nice place to be. You could even take a scrufty on, that is in solid condition functionally, and give it a repaint, and have a real treasure.

Now if you are using any saw, alignment of blade to miter slot, then fence to miter slot is essential, otherwise you are fighting the wood, and putting an extreme burden on an already struggling saw. Perfectly parallel rules for smooth cuts, and a lot less resistance. Thin kerf blades help because they are removing less material. Another method some may use on thicker stock is to only cut a hair over half way into the board, flip it over, and cut through the other half, then joint the new edge to size. None of these things are as ideal as having a greater than, more tooth than a ripping blade on, with plently of power, and making a single glass smooth cut that is exact to size.

I have seen a lot of people finding an old Powermatic 66 for 6 to 8 hundred dollars, and some find saws made in the 90's for around 1000 in very nice shape. On the other hand I have seen used PM66's that are a few years old, bringing 1700. Sometimes buying something that is ready to roll, flip the switch and cut away is a nice thing to have, especially if you know that you could always resell it for close to what you have in it.

I still have my Sears vintage 1950 1hp contractors saw, converted it to 220, did all of the above, but when I got the new PM66 with 5 horses, it became a whole new ball game. 3hp is fine, that is what Norm Abrams uses. For 3/4" stock a less than 3hp can get through, but when you get into hardwoods, thicker than that, you have to do a song and dance to adapt. CraigsList.com lists used equipment for sale in your area. That is a place to try. I know it sounds like a gloat, but with a PM66 with a 5hp motor and a Forrest WWII 40 tooth blade, making rip cuts, you can sail through anything the height of the blade can handle, and it doesn't even slow down. If you listen to the pitch of the motor/blade, you don't even know its making a cut. Am I exaggerating, maybe a little, but I don't notice it slow down even a little on anything I throw at it.

Finding an older saw has some special rewards. I do want to say that there is something beautiful about taking an old piece of iron, and refinishing it. It's has a depth of character that you have a hard time finding in a new saw. I bought my PM66 new, but my old circa 1948 band saw I bought very inexpensively, as in only a few hundred, and spent some time refinishing it. It has a history to it, yet it is refreshingly new, with some new paint. Here is a before and after.
http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/4468/2802691790100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/5360/2100747380100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/5382/2959895410100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

I do want to say that woodworking and boating are 2 loves that it does not matter if you are on the water with a paddle boat, or a luxury liner, you are still on the water. Whatever saw you have it is a joy. I also have a lot of respect for someone who can make the lesser tool work superbly well. I will never forget going to play tennis, and the 2 other guys I would go to the tennis club with, we always needed a fourth. One week we brought this guy who did not have a name brand tennis outfit, but rather a tattered pair of dungarees. His raquet had a couple of strings missing, and the wrapping on the handle was coming undone, and he had to keep rewrapping it as he played, but when that guy served the ball it went wissing by your head at speeds that made it sing. He blew us all off the court. That's a hero. I still love new and old, and am still trying to learn how to play like that.

[John Browne]

All those cab saws are great saws. Once you try one compared to a CS or hybrid saw you'll not want to go back. I was lucky enough to pick up a late model PM66 3hp on CL for a good price. Still made in TN, great saw, cuts through anything I throw at it. I'll keep it forever and will it to one of my lucky kids.