Table Saw Upgrade

[Larry R. Rosing]

Greetings,

I am thinking of upgrading from my Craftsman Contractor table saw to a cabinet style saw (not interested in the hybrids). Any advice out there?
Thanks, Larry R. Rosing

[Sean Kinn]

My personal recommendation is to search the used market. You can often find a pretty good deal if you are patient. If money is tight, and you are mechanically inclined consider re-habbing an older saw. Often times what looks like a pile of scrap rust can be re-habbed to near new condition with a little elbow grease and a few replacement parts. If you are looking to buy a new machine, the Grizzly 1023 series gets a lot of rave reviews for the price.

[Chuck Lenz]

You will probably want lift gate service. ;) I think they should change the name of this website to Unisawmill Creek ! I'm still in Contractorsaw Canyon. :(

[Jim Shockey]

When I upgraded four or five years ago I was looking at the unisaw and the grizzly 1023Z. I liked the grizzly the best, for the price and the saw itself, but I bought the delta instead and I've always regretted it. Buy what you like and are happy with. Some like a ford and some like the chevy. The saws are all pretty close in quality anymore. Jim

[Rod Sheridan]

Here's a vote for General, still made in North America, available in left or right tilt.

I have the 650 with an Excalibur overarm guard and merlin splitter.

The saw is smooth, accurate and powerful, in my opinion it's much nicer than the newer Unisaws.

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Padilla]

Larry,

You need to define a budget because you can spend from $800 - $2500 on a TS. I think a very low-end Grizzly 1023(something or other) goes for around $800 on up to the Powermatics and SawStop tipping over the $2k range.

Personally, I think Grizzly has the best bang for the buck. I have a 1023Z and I wish it would one day die so I can get the new Powermatic2000 or even the Saw Stop. I think I'll be waiting a long, long, long time....

[Keith Beck]

Larry,

I upgraded a couple of years ago from a Craftsman contractor saw to a used General 350. One of the best purchases I ever made. I was never really happy with my contractor saw, no matter how many tweaks and upgrades I made to it. The General is built like a tank and I get a smile on my face every time I use it.

Keith

[Mike Marcade]

I'm kinda like Keith (In the fact that I am never really happy with my contractors saw) I just haven't gone to a cabinet saw yet. :(

[Larry R. Rosing]

Thanks for the info! I am thinking about the Griz. when I can afford it.

[Jason Scott]

I have a Powermatic 64A if you don't mind the contractors style. It is solid cast iron top and wings, and is dead on accurate. I upgraded from a craftsman too, and you just won't believe the difference. I think retail for the saw is like 1200 or something, but you can find them used, and even new on ebay for like 500-800.

[Kacey Zach]

Check over at Woodnet forums, someone posted info about a Grizzly in Lake Mills area for sale. Someone on woodnet copied the Craigslist ad, but I don't know where it came from. The ad stated $450, but there were some issues. Check it out for yourself though.

[Chuck Lenz]

When I upgraded four or five years ago I was looking at the unisaw and the grizzly 1023Z. I liked the grizzly the best, for the price and the saw itself, but I bought the delta instead and I've always regretted it. Buy what you like and are happy with. Some like a ford and some like the chevy. The saws are all pretty close in quality anymore. Jim
I'm not sure that makes much sense. Why would anyone pay considerably more for a saw they don't like as well ? A Grizzly 1023 is nicer then a Delta Unisaw ? I don't think so.

[Larry R. Rosing]

Rod, any advantage between left and right tilt? I'm still not sure which is better.

[scott spencer]

Rod, any advantage between left and right tilt? I'm still not sure which is better.

Neither is clearly "better", unless you have a clear preference for one or the other, or a great deal in the works for one! ;) There are pros and cons to each....left tilt is said to be safer b/c the blade tilts away from the fence when tilted, but the folks using a RT will just move the fence to the opposite side for bevel cuts to achieve essentially the same thing....it could be argued that leaving the fence on the right side is a more familiar, thus safer operation. A LT saw has the arbor flange on the left side of the blade, meaning that any thickness changes when changing blades translate to an error in the zero reference on the tape measure. That can be offset by shims, recalibrating the cursor, using the same thickness blades, or measuring by hand. Another plus for the LT IMHO, is that the arbor nut is installed from the right and has normal thread orientation ( can put it on with my right hand) ....on a RT saw the nut is installed from the left (which favors using my left hand) and has a reverse thread orientation.

Neither issue is a big enough concern for me to pass up a great deal....I've owned both and prefer left tilt.

[James Suzda]

Larry,
Check out the Madison Craig's list. There was a Grizzly for sale a few days ago.
I found my used Grizzly 1023 (right tilt) on this site back in December. http://bb.mwt.net/dc/dcboard.php

Kacey said there might have been some issues with that saw listed on Craig's list, but I think the only issues were with the people posting in the forum.

[Pat Germain]

If you can find a good deal on a nice, used saw, that's awesome. All I can ever find are overpriced, used, electric turds.

I've been looking at Cabinet saws myself. I was all set on a Grizzly/Shop Fox.

However, I was at Woodcraft the other day and saw two very nice Steel City saws. The lower end model had a 1-3/4 HP, 120V motor. With a $100 rebate effective through March, the saw came to about $900. There was another model with a 3 HP, 220V motor. It was just a little more in price and also had a rebate; very tempting.

I suggest you also check out Shop Fox saws at bibbtool.com. Right now they are offering free shipping on a very nice model. Those saws are reasonably priced as it is. When you eliminate tax and shipping, it becomes a very sweet deal. (FYI, with free shipping you have to pick it up at a local freight depot. That's no problem for me, but may be a problem for others.)

[Chris Yarish]

Good review of hybrids here if you're interested:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1492&articleID=501503

[Chuck Lenz]

Good review of hybrids here if you're interested:
http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1492&articleID=501503
Nice review on the Craftsman 22124, it has poor dust collection. :D LMAO

[Pat Germain]

Alright, I've got another biscuit question. What exactly is a hybrid saw? Is it pretty much a cabinet saw with a smaller, lower-powered motor?

[Nancy Laird]

Make sure you take a look at a Steel City cabinet saw before you buy. Some new (and proprietary) innovations to their saws, and their fences move the smoothest and lock in the best of any I've seen - and I've played with Delta, Powermatic, Jet, SCTW, and Woodtek. There's a reason that their entire line of machines got an award last year.

Nancy

[Chuck Lenz]

Alright, I've got another biscuit question. What exactly is a hybrid saw? Is it pretty much a cabinet saw with a smaller, lower-powered motor?
The lower powered motor is for energy saveings. The saw runs on a series of batteries like a Hybrid car.

[Pat Germain]

The lower powered motor is for energy saveings. The saw runs on a series of batteries like a Hybrid car.

Got it. Perhaps I should look for a hydrogen powered saw.

[Chuck Lenz]

Got it. Perhaps I should look for a hydrogen powered saw.
I'm sure Harbor Frieght is working on it as we speak.

[Wayne Cannon]

Pay attention to top flatness. Also check for uniform miter slot width (not tapered), parallel miter slots, and equal width miter slots. New Deltas, Jets, Grizzlys, etc., all have these problems from time to time (depending on how recently someone focused on them on the manufacturing line, I guess). If you get a good buy on a used one, a good machine shop can resurface the top reasonably, but miter slot issues are harder to fix.

[Tony Oliver]

If you can find a good deal on a nice, used saw, that's awesome. All I can ever find are overpriced, used, electric turds.

I've been looking at Cabinet saws myself. I was all set on a Grizzly/Shop Fox.

However, I was at Woodcraft the other day and saw two very nice Steel City saws. The lower end model had a 1-3/4 HP, 120V motor. With a $100 rebate effective through March, the saw came to about $900. There was another model with a 3 HP, 220V motor. It was just a little more in price and also had a rebate; very tempting.

I suggest you also check out Shop Fox saws at bibbtool.com. Right now they are offering free shipping on a very nice model. Those saws are reasonably priced as it is. When you eliminate tax and shipping, it becomes a very sweet deal. (FYI, with free shipping you have to pick it up at a local freight depot. That's no problem for me, but may be a problem for others.)
Three months ago I bought the 3 hp Steel City Cabinet saw with the 54" top and industrial fence. The mechanical portions of the saw seem nice and solid -- and that portion I am happy with. I was impressed by the price and by the quality of the blades that came free with the saw. However, the devil is in the details.

The saw's top isn't flat, it bows up in the center so that there is a ridge between the metal wings and the saw top (pronounced enough to leave a mark on a 4x8 sheet of Cherry plywood). I bought a $180 straight edge to check it, and yes it is the top that isn't flat, not the extension wings.

But I needed to get it into service so I just let it slide. But since then we noticed that we were constantly having to recalibrate the fence indicator. Turns out that plastic measure glued to the fence rail has shrunk (it is only 3 months old) and is now 1/16th of an inch shorter than it was originally. Set the indicator to cut correctly close to the blade and it will be off if you are cutting something wide. In cabinet work, this won't suffice, so we have use a tape measure to set the fence -- every time.

I have also had nothing but trouble with their table saw inserts. On the insert that came with my saw the adjusting screws have so much slop in them that they move up and down within the threads with nothing more than the vibration of the saw. This means that you can adjust it but the insert rides up after a few minutes and the insert starts leaving red marks on the wood you are cutting. To remedy this, I upgraded to their Steel City brand zero clearance insert -- and it is even worse. On the zero clearance insert the alignment screws don't even contact the supports... so the height cannot be adjusted. According to the local dealer, that is the zero clearance insert for my saw.

I was sold on the superior quality of the machining in the saw itself, and I would really like to say that Steel City was worth the money, but I am sorry to say I can't because the "little" details are a constant irritation.

Even their supposed "excellent" customer service has failed to show up. I have spent months getting the run-around trying to get parts for my drum sander (the local dealers say they don't do parts and keep giving me the factory's phone number yet when I call Steel City they say they can't sell to me directly that I will have to talk to one of my dealers. Catch 22. Meanwhile, I am trying to make a living doing woodworking without a drum sander.

I went directly to Steel City's web site to complain about the problems with my saw and it has been a week now and I have not even gotten a response telling me they acknowledge that I even exist.

Sorry, but Steel City probably isn't the way you want to go. As long as everything happens to be perfect when it arrives, you will probably be okay. But if you get a tool that has problems, you will probably be disappointed with Steel City.

[Don Bullock]

I upgraded from a Craftsman Contractor table saw to a SawStop. Wow, what a difference. No, a SS isn't for everyone, but it is a great saw and good investment for people like me.

[Larry Fox]

I have a Uni and love it. However, if I were in the market I would try everything in my power to swing a SawStop. Seems to be a VERY high-quality saw and the safety aspect mor tahn offsets the initial sticker-shock for me.

[glenn bradley]

Neither is clearly "better", unless you have a clear preference for one or the other, or a great deal in the works for one! ;)

Now Scott, tell him the truth. Right Tilt Saws are Evil!!

Seriously, it is a personal preference. I feel a left tilt is safer for the reasons Scott points out so I feel more comfortable using it. Plenty of folks have used right tilt saws for years and never had a problem.

I don't subscribe to the theory that right tilt saw's rules and cursors remain accurate when adding dado stacks or changing blade types. Anyone who has used more than one type of blade knows that the blanks and teeth vary widely across styles and manufacturers.

In the end it is your call. If possible, stand in front of each and go through the motions of performing a bevel rip and think about where your hands are and where your keeper and spoil end up. See which you prefer as that is what matters.

[glenn bradley]

Nice review on the Craftsman 22124, it has poor dust collection. :D LMAO

That is interesting since the review claims the Delta had "superb dust collection" and it has the same basic internal cabinet design as the Steel City and the C-man. Hmmmm. . . subjective comment by the reviewers maybe?

[glenn bradley]

Alright, I've got another biscuit question. What exactly is a hybrid saw? Is it pretty much a cabinet saw with a smaller, lower-powered motor?

Generally accepted definition is something like:

Runs on 110v (or 220v, as in and/or)
2HP or less
Motor inside the cabinetSame configuration (although beefed up) with 3HP or more becomes a cab saw. More or less.

[Travis Gauger]

I have some comments on a few things. I agree with checking out the shopfox line. I just bought one of their 15" planers and love it. Very heavy, nicely machined, easy adjustments, etc. I have looked at shopfox for a few of my recent equipment purchases and they have rated very well overall.

Steel City. Hmm. What can I say about steel city except that I have been completely impressed with a jointer I bought from them. Overall, my best equipement buying experience to date. Everything went together very well, and the fit and finish on the tool itself leaves nothing to be desired. I only wish I would have bought a SC tool prior to all my other tool purchases as I would have more SC in the shop right now.

I think this really boils down to preferences and personal experiences. I have a friend that bought a top of the line, very expensive car. Known for it's high level of quality. 2 years later the vehicle has been in the shop more than out of it. He has had more problems with that car than anyone I know of. Serious stuff too, like some suspension part that broke at 70MPH down the highway and left him in the ditch. I know someone else with a year older model of the same vehicle and loves it. Never has had a problem. So what's the difference in the two cars, Don't know. What's the difference in the experiences that people report of their tool purchases, don't know that one either. I do know that SC is very highly regarded for the price. I know that my experience with them has been great. My $.02