Japaneese chisels

[Todd Bin]

Hello all, I come over here and check out the hand tool section occationally. Can someone explain to me why Japanese chisels are so expensive and what is the difference betwwen white and blue steel? I was looking at buying a few but got confused on what to buy.

Thanks,

Todd

[Thomas Knighton]

If you're looking for some affordable Japanese chisels, go to Grizzly. They've got some really nice ones, that are really reasonably priced. I received the first two of the four I ordered, the other two should be there today, and I'm really impressed with them so far. Right out of the box they were pretty sharp and did a decent job while I was just screwing around with them.

As for your questions, the only reason I can see for the cost is that they are forged with two types of steel laminated together. The process may drive the cost up as opposed to western chisels that are simply one type of steel through out the chisel. That's just a guess though, so I freely admit I could be wrong.

Tom

[Pam Niedermayer]

Todd, the expensive Japanese chisels are hand made and finished, they're laminated (which can be pretty tricky), made of the expensive materials, and there are sales habits that tend to cost (although the internet seems to be getting us a little closer to the makers).

Pam

[Wilbur Pan]

The super simplified explanation as to the difference between white and blue steel is that blue steel is a bit tougher and holds its edge longer, white steel takes a bit of a sharper edge. From a manufacturing standpoint, apparently it's easier to work with blue steel than white steel.

Hida Tool used to have a page on their website that explains the details, but they redid their web page a little while ago and I can't find it there now. Luckily, the Wayback Machine comes to the rescue (http://web.archive.org/web/20061030101546/www.hidatool.com/woodpage/wb.html).

FWIW, my Japanese chisels tend to be white steel, and my Japanese plane blades tend to be blue steel. I'm not sure this is the best way to go, but it's what I do.

[Don C Peterson]

The super simplified explanation as to the difference between white and blue steel is that blue steel is a bit tougher and holds its edge longer, white steel takes a bit of a sharper edge. From a manufacturing standpoint, apparently it's easier to work with blue steel than white steel.


I thought it was blue steel that is harder to work with from a manufacturing perspective. Regardless, good quality Japanese chisels are no more expensive than good quality western style chisels. The exception being the hand-made damascus steel chisels that are more works of art than they are tools...

I have found after using several types of both Japanese and western chisels that the differences in sharpness and edge retention are more dependent on the specific maker than on blue vs. white steel or even Japanese vs. western chisels. About the only difference that really seems to hold up between Japanese and western style chisels across different makers is ergonomics. The Japanese chisels tend to have smaller handles and shorter blades.

[Wilbur Pan]

Again, as I understand it, the main reason that white steel is harder to work with is that if it is properly made, there is a fairly narrow range of temperatures that you can use for the annealing/hardening/tempering process, compared to blue steel. So, it's easier to screw up the processing of white steel compared to blue steel. Blue steel has a wider range of workable temperatures.

I think that overall the material needed for white steel is a bit cheaper than blue steel, and what you are paying for with higher end white steel is the skill of the maker in handling it. So what you get is white steel chisels on the cheap end, because of the lower cost of materials, then cheap blue steel chisels, then high end chisels of both white and blue steel, where the cost more is a reflection of the skills and experience of the tool maker.

And yes, the differences in edge retention and sharpness between makers is much greater the difference between white and blue steel. Forgot to mention that.

[Todd Bin]

Ok. I might be even more confused now. Here is what I have gained so far.

It doesn't really matter white or blue. What matters is the skill of the person making the chisel.

How am I supposed to know how much skill the maker has? Is this just a case of more expensive must be better. Somehow I doubt that.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Todd, I pretty much ignore the white vs blue steel issue, as I tried to do here. So much for good intentions. :)

I rely on the makers to choose the right materials to produce quality tools. I do think laminated blades provide a superior experience.

So from my standpoint, any of these blacksmiths make quality chisels: Tasai, Funahiro, or Imai (named Fujihiro at Hida), Takahashi (carving). And most sellers have their favorites that I've never tried. I buy from Hida (in Berkeley) and Iida (in Japan). I've also purchased other brands here and there that work fine; but I don't have enough experience with a range of those chisels to be able to recommend them.

Pam

PS Forgot to mention that after I got all the speciality chisels I needed (mortising, carving, paring (just love the Tasai ultra thin), etc.), I no longer needed bench chisels at all. Something to think about.

[Todd Bin]

Thanks Pam and others who posted and send me articles. at least I have something to go on.

[Allan Froehlich]

If you are looking at the Japanese chisels with the many layers of metal, these are special because they are constructed in the same manner as the old samurai swords. It is probably one of the very best types of metal for chisels.