HAMMER vs MINIMAX

[FRITZ STOOP]

:D
I have done the research. It is down to the CS31P or the CU300 Smart.
My first combo. A significant investment. I really am stuck.
I must go to them that know.
Please advise.

Man this is nervous making!

[Jim Becker]

Both are great machines. I'm obviously partial to MiniMax 'cause they have treated me very, very well in the years I've been doing business with them. For me it comes down to the people I do business with every time. That's what you are really buying, especially with this level of hardware...it's all good. Consider how you have been treated during the sales process and be sure that you understand how you'll be supported after you buy.

[John Hain]

I've looked at the Hammer and MM for awhile now (and the Felders). Both are very nice machines. In my opinion:

1. The fit and finish on the MM CU300S is better.
2. The factory tolerances are better on the MM, but not by much. I don't remember the numbers, but I remember thinking the difference was pretty insignificant.
3. I haven't seen the mobility unit for the Hammer, but the MM built-in mobility is second to none! I have a nice flat, smooth floor, so the ability to easily move >1700lbs around is nice, when needed.
4. MM has a bit more HP per motor.
5. The Hammer is about $1000 less, or so depending on when you buy.
6. I'm not sure if the Hammer has a 5/8" arbor, I think they do.
7. Their footprint is very similar.
8. I thought the MM fences (all of them) were/looked sturdier. Sam Blasco picked the rip fence off a machine in Vegas for me and demonstrated its strength in ways I would never put pressure on my T fence. The outrigger fence was thicker and the miter fence adjusted easier. Big advantage for the MM in this area.
9. The rip capacity to the right of the blade on the MM is wider, but who cares?
10. I believe the difference in length of the jointer tables is substantial. According to what I wrote down previous: The Hammer is 55 inches, the MM is 64 inches.

Overall, they both would do just fine in my shop. I liked the MM a little more for a variety of reasons. For about $1000 more, I think MM can justify the slightly higher cost.

[Martin Shupe]

Based on my last experience with Minimax customer service, I would buy the Hammer. I've heard all the stories about how great their customer service was, but they wouldn't return my calls, and then when I finally got them on the line, I was not allowed to order a SAFETY GUARD because I had to spend a minimum amount of money, and the part didn't cost enough. Gee, do you think if I cut off my finger, I should be able to file a lawsuit?

"Your Honor, I tried to buy a new SAFETY GUARD, but they wouldn't sell me one." That would play well in court, wouldn't it?

Buy the Hammer.

Minimax, re-think your customer service/minimum part order nonsense. You lost at least one customer over your corporate stupidity.

[FRITZ STOOP]

Thanks guys for your cogent analysis.

I think I knew, but I had to ask.

When I got my MM16, the experience with Erik Loza was very good and has continued to be.

When I spoke with a fellow from Felder-USA, he was talking some nice numbers, but when I called him to arrange a trip to Sacramento to talk turkey we were back to retail with not even a glimmer of a recollection about saying such a thing. I don't mind paying top dollar for top value, but don't BS me to get me in the door. It does not bode well for a future professional relationship.

Big thanks!

[FRITZ STOOP]

No offense Martin. I was typing my other reply when your post came in.

Oh, my wife's a judge, I'll ask her about your chances in that civil suit.

[Joe Mioux]

Based on my last experience with Minimax customer service, I would buy the Hammer. I've heard all the stories about how great their customer service was, but they wouldn't return my calls, and then when I finally got them on the line, I was not allowed to order a SAFETY GUARD because I had to spend a minimum amount of money, and the part didn't cost enough. Gee, do you think if I cut off my finger, I should be able to file a lawsuit?

"Your Honor, I tried to buy a new SAFETY GUARD, but they wouldn't sell me one." That would play well in court, wouldn't it?

Buy the Hammer.

Minimax, re-think your customer service/minimum part order nonsense. You lost at least one customer over your corporate stupidity.

well this is interesting....

Martin, my customer service experience with MM is good. They sold me two machines and they haven't called me since, so I think that is a good thing. But then again, they also have never followed up and asked me if there was anything else they could do for me -- as a service-- that would make my purchases more enjoyable.

MM, gets a lot of high praise from certain smc'rs here, but i view them as good, not great. the mm16 has certain design flaws that should have been fixed at the factory years ago, but they still get shipped. I am speaking of the foot brake and the need to file down an allen wrench to get it behind the lower fly wheel for installation. Sales people never tell you these things or they fein knowledge of this problem.

The mobility kit that they used to advertise as a $160 or something close to that price is horrid. The price for the mobility kit is offensive.

I hope a couple of them are listening and reading.

With all this said about mm, i am not sure Felder is any better. I looked at a couple big ticket tools from them since my mm purchases and all they do is nickel and dime you with necessary accessories. Or should I say C-note you death with accessories needed to make the machine function.

I have also had some interesting experiences with a certain well German hand tool co recently.

Maybe its just a European thing....

Where are all the good made in the usa co's?:confused:

[Justin Bukoski]

Fritz, don't sweat this decision you'll be happy with either I think. It sounds like you've had a good experience with MM in the past so why not stick with them?

I went through this recently and went with Rojek based on price. I don't think they have the fit/finish of MM or Felder but I'm tickled pink with the performance. I don't think you can go wrong with any of these except maybe the Laguna - I did not care for the way they treated me....bad gut feeling.

So, my advice is go with your gut. ALL of these are going to make you a very happy woodworker.

Oh and treat buying one of these like buying a car. All of these dealers have room to make a deal.

[Dan Lautner]

Fritz, I would take a close look at the Felder 500 series combo. I saw one in person and it is a great machine. It comes with the Xroll slider which blows away the mm slider. The resale value will also be higher with the Felder if you decide to ever sell.

Dan

[tim rowledge]

Useful extra items to consider
- is one or the other nearer to you? It can be helpful to be able to walk in to collect spares or consumables
- does one have a better guarantee in your opnion
- options; MM typically just includes almost everything, Felder appears to do the VolksWagen thing and make everything an option. We used to joke about buying a VW Golf GTi and having to order the optional extra steering wheel. Options are good if you want to leave something out to save money or add something exotic. Options are bad if they merely confuse or hide the true cost.

I got an MM CU300 four and a bit years ago. They supported me *extraordinarily* well, taking a small deposit a *whole year* before and keeping the price despite the currency changing. They threw in mortiser bits, mobility kit, mitre fence etc as well. If I were buying today though, I'd probably go Felder because now I live on Vancouver Island there is a dealer 40 minutes away. Mind you, the MM dealer is only in Vancouver but that is a rather long journey across the water.

I'd agree with almost everything said above. Both are really nice machines. I almost envy you the thrill and adrenaline of the chase :-)

[Al Garay]

I have not purchased from MM but both times I have requested information and exchanged emails, they have been very responsive and pleasant, not pushy. In fact, I was surprised they sent out a DVD demo with their catalog.

Think back to "Wayne's World" as Wayne dreams of someday having the Stratocaster. Well, someday the Minimax will be mine.

[Rick Potter]

I have a Felder KF700 saw/shaper. At the time I got it MiniMax was selling a lighter weight unit that had a flimsy fence.

If I were buying today, I would look seriously at the MM. Don't get me wrong, the Felder is a good machine, but as someone mentioned it reminded me of the time I looked at the price tag of a new Mercedes. They charged $1800 more for silver metallic paint. I got into my Ford, with the standard silver metallic paint, and never looked back.

Felder charges extra for everything. OH, you want the slider to be ANODIZED aluminum, that's $150 more. Sorry, the slider does not come with a hold down, that too is more, as is the nut that holds it to the table. By the way, the 220V motor is made for 50 HZ, not 60, so it will be running at more RPM, which is exacerbated by the 12-14" blade size, which by the way has a 30MM arbor and will cost you about 50% more than buying blades elsewhere, or using the 10 you already have. Too bad about that dado set you can't use anymore, even if it fit, the arbor would not be long enough to take it. Gee, it's too bad standard DC fittings don't fit, ours are just a little bigger.

I have always wondered why Felder does not just put a Baldor motor on the saw, rather than make you pay extra for the phase converter so you can run it on 220. They have the typical teutonic stubborness, and take forever to take advice from owners on what is desired in the US market. The Felder Owners Group has made many suggestions, which are usually ignored. One generous FOG member even made a new owners manual, since the one Felder used (5 yrs ago) was almost useless.

Hey....guess how much extra it costs for a router spindle to fit the shaper. Try about $500...no typo. Wrench extra.

Now, I realize it sounds like I hate my Felder. I like it, but it really ticks me off when I think of all the little things they could do to it to make it better for next to nothing, like using wood tables like other saws, my metal ones have humps in them, and the fence scratches the paint with use.

Looking at MM and Laguna lately, I think they have caught up to Felder, and have given a lot of thought to what the American user needs. Felder has tried to address things like the dado situation, but last I heard, it only goes to 1/2".


Sorry FOGGERS,

Rick Potter

Edit: About the 220V motor...Mine has a 220V option, which instead of a normal 220V motor, is a 3 phase, 4 HP 220 motor with a phase converter. That is the way Felder did it from the factory. Just thought I would clarify. You can also get larger motors which are also 3 phase, and get your own converter.

[Tony Franzen]

Hi all of you. I think all the Europe made machine companies applies to the extra option thinking. As i work profesonaly as a woodworker i've got my fair share of typical sellers nonsens talk. It dosen't mater if its felder or altendorf or any other company the extra option is a fact. As for the voltage matter we run almost all machines on 3 phases 400 v. And about the arbor its invented in Europe for the euoropean market and we work a little bit diffrent than you guys. Like i have never seen a dado blade in action we tend to use a shaper instead with various cutters and uses bigger eu style type of machines rather than router tables and that type of things.

I have looked at the Felder and hammer combos at a couple of times on woodworking shows like the hannover show for my little hobby shop and i think it looks and feels god. Another machine i also have in mind is the robland combos also a nice machine. And for the minimax it's not spoken of that often in this occasions i think it's more thought to be a hobby machine rather than a semipro/pro machine.


Oh well hopes some of it makes sens to some one. And sorry for my bad spelling and grammar .

[Bernhard Lampert]

As was said in the first reply:'Both are good machines'.
I think it will come down to just personal preference.
When I bought my machines, I selected Felder due to previous experience, relatively close showroom and IMHO best value to price ratio.
Looking hard enough, you'll find negative experiences with any and all vendors. There are pros and cons to every machine and there is no 'perfect' machine.
I tend to look over the longer term: How long have they been in business? Is it a reputable, stable company? Will there be spare parts/service available in 10 years?
Felder, like most 'professional equipment' manufacturers, allow to order cafeteria style for a customized machine or for later addition.
The best way to make a decision, is to visit a shop with that particular machine and actually observe it.
I don't know where you are located, if you are close to Durham, NC, you are welcome to take a look at and try the Felder stuff I have.
Cheers,
Bernhard

[Stan Welborn]

Can't comment on either machine as I haven't used either, but I HAVE dealt with both companies. I truly despise using the phone. Previous line of work turned me against that particular appliance forever. That said, after expressing this to a Felder sales manager, he was very accommodating doing business with me via email. The J/P combo I purchased is an outstanding piece of machinery.

MM on the other hand.... I have a MM20 bandsaw that cuts beautifully, but has started giving me trouble with the switch. I emailed MM and was told there was a new updated switch available for purchase, but I needed to CALL their tech line. I emailed again explaining my preference for online communication and requesting an email address for their tech department. They replied that I had to CALL and talk with a tech person. Well, I'm down to leaving the cover off the switch and diddling with it every time to get it to start. I suppose I'll get so tired of it eventually that I'll break down and call, but dang I hate the phone.:(

Anyway, everybody has their preferences, and though that may seem trivial to some, Felder accommodated my request for email communication without hesitation. Wanna guess where my next machine purchase will more than likely come from?

[Brad Shipton]

You should take a look at the Felder-USA site. They have recently listed some demo machines online that might be of interest. I noticed a MM Smart 300.

Brad

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I am most certain that either way you go you'll be happy and a year later you'll find little things that you will realize could have been engineered or executed better.

I have a Hammer slider and a JP combo. I like 'em both.

[Chris Padilla]

Felder charges extra for everything. OH, you want the slider to be ANODIZED aluminum, that's $150 more....

That is interesting, Rick.

I'm a big BMW fan and in Europe and most of the rest of the world EXCEPT the US, you can really customize the living daylights out of your BMW. We BMW fans here in the US positively drool at all the options one gets outside of the US (heck, North America, actually) and we are always trying to get those extras here in the US to install ourselves.

In the US, BMW provides us packages of stuff and you either take it or leave it. You don't get a whole lot of choices and you really miss out on getting everything you ever wanted (or didn't want) on your pricey BMW.

The grass is always greener....

[lou sansone]

both are good machines. find a couple of owners in your area if you can and ask them to show you the machine. it depends on what type of work you will be doing as well. it is commercial, hobby, mixture of both? I use all seperates myself, but make sure you can live with the combo world. It would not work for me. I have a mm 315ws slider and really like it.

lou

[FRITZ STOOP]

Can't Thank You Enough, Brad.
It Looks Like A Great Deal, So I Put Down A Deposit.
We Shall See What Tomorrow Brings!

[Norb Schmidt]

Fritz, congrats on the new machine. I personally think you can't go wrong with that choice, and as you outgrow it or decide later its not for you, you will get reasonable value for it in a sale. I bought a used MM CK 350, which is real similar to yours. Its about 7 years old now and runs great for my purposes. Euro sliders force you to work differently than a conventional US saw, and unfortunately nobody (to my knowledge) has written a book or video on how to use it (sans Sam Blasco's video on the slider operation on the MM website). I find myself continually having to shift my mindset to the slider vs. the ripfence, but I enjoy its accuracy and safety.

I think all of the above posts on the differences from Hammer to MM to Felder are valid and reasonable. Felder does have a healthy "option" catalog, but that is how they differentiate their product - lots of neat and innovative optional products that just plain work really well. Take the planer/slider/jointer extension table (either aluminum or steel), nobody else has them, and they come in real handy at times (I've used them on a Felder). In either case, MM is always characterized as an excellent "value" vs Felder which is more "style". I'm not so sure that is completely accurate, but so be it. In either case, the falling Dollar vs. the Euro has a lot to do with pricing right now. There are and will be fewer "deals" on anything made in Europe (get your BMW now) until the currency issues are stabilized. Smaller companies like Felder can't hedge as well as the larger SCMI, which owns MM). But as they like to say, that's just my opinion.

Congrats again and welcome into the Euro Slider "cult"/club.

[Jim Becker]

Fake the planer/slider/jointer extension table (either aluminum or steel), nobody else has them, and they come in real handy at times (I've used them on a Felder).

Don't forget the Aigner extensions which will work on "any" machine...even non-Euro machines!
-----

Fritz, congratulations on your soon-to-be-new-to-you machine!

[Chris Padilla]

Can't Thank You Enough, Brad.
It Looks Like A Great Deal, So I Put Down A Deposit.
We Shall See What Tomorrow Brings!

Fritz, I'm in San Jose...and have a MM FS41 Elite 16" J/P...it is an aircraft carrier really....

[Charlie Plesums]

It Looks Like A Great Deal, So I Put Down A Deposit.
I believe that machine only has a 5 1/2 foot slider. Personally, I consider my 8 1/2 foot slider to be minimal length - I am not sure I would bother with a slider that wasn't long enough to straight-line-rip a long board or a sheet of plywood.

Some people have argued that they need a shorter slider for space constraints, but I find that space required is no worse than a plain table saw... if I want to rip an 8 foot board, I need 8 feet before the blade, 8 feet after the blade, plus a foot for the blade, or about 17 feet, whether held on a slider or balanced on portable stands and tables.

My MM CU410 fits in my garage! And I occasionally get one car (not two) in that garage.

[David Weaver]

Can't comment on either machine as I haven't used either, but I HAVE dealt with both companies. I truly despise using the phone. Previous line of work turned me against that particular appliance forever. That said, after expressing this to a Felder sales manager, he was very accommodating doing business with me via email. The J/P combo I purchased is an outstanding piece of machinery.

MM on the other hand.... I have a MM20 bandsaw that cuts beautifully, but has started giving me trouble with the switch. I emailed MM and was told there was a new updated switch available for purchase, but I needed to CALL their tech line. I emailed again explaining my preference for online communication and requesting an email address for their tech department. They replied that I had to CALL and talk with a tech person. Well, I'm down to leaving the cover off the switch and diddling with it every time to get it to start. I suppose I'll get so tired of it eventually that I'll break down and call, but dang I hate the phone.:(

Anyway, everybody has their preferences, and though that may seem trivial to some, Felder accommodated my request for email communication without hesitation. Wanna guess where my next machine purchase will more than likely come from?

You and I are in the same boat re: communication. I like to have emails so that I can document what was said and when. I don't think a lot of CS places like to be tied to that level of precision.

If I find someone who can communicate with reasonable speed via email, and be honest in their returns, I would much rather do that than spend the time on the phone trying to explain things that would be better written down (and re-read to ensure clarity).

It's probably not the case with MM, though - just that they have set that protocol and realize they don't need to make exceptions for people at this point (presumably based on business results).

[Justin Bukoski]

Jim, do you know of a source for these? I am sorely in need of some extensions since I'm getting ready to run a bunch of 16/4 stock in long lengths. Little roller stands don't cut it for that...

[Brad Shipton]

Justin:
Martin dealers re-sell all aigner and Simantech is another seller in the US I have heard mentioned quite a bit. You can find the complete Aigner Catalogue online, but beware, it may end up costing you because they have a lot of really handy devices.

Brad

[Justin Bukoski]

Thanks Brad, I'm going to go bury my credit card right now. :)

[Steven Wilson]

Justin, you can also use Felder/Hammer accessories on your Minimax gear. I have a set of Hammer fences on my MiniMax shaper fence that works great.

[Justin Bukoski]

Steven, thanks. I actually have a Rojek combo and I'm looking for some snap-on fences for the J/P