Advise on hand cut dovetails

[Rob Luter]

Greetings to all,

I'm looking for a little advice on hand cut dovetails. I got this crazy idea in my head that I should learn this skill, and set about to practicing. In theory, this seemed to be pretty straight forward. Marking the tails was pretty cut and dried, but when I went to make the saw cuts, the wheels fell off. Despite very crisp marking and careful sawing it seems that I can't hold a line to save my life. I know my tenon saw (an old fine pitch crosscut Jackson) leaves something to be desired and it's being sharpened and properly set this week. Even using a thin, fine pitch dovetail saw (An old Pennsylvania Saw) with almost no set resulted in a wandering line. I was practicing in clear pine and some clear hard maple. Now I had no illusions that I would hit a home run on the first swing, but this is really discouraging.

I've read some articles on cutting dovetails and it is often stated that a rip tooth form is really superior for cutting dovetails. I can appreciate that the rip tooth is better suited to cutting the wood fibers, but does it make it any tougher to hold your line? Some tout the Japanese style pull saw as the way to go in either rip or crosscut. Some say just practice until you get it right (some truth to that!)

I'd be interested in hearing from those that have gotten over the hump on dovetails. Was the saw style and tooth form a major contributor to getting it right, or was it just a matter of practice makes perfect?

Thanks in advance for any input.

- Rob

[Thom Sturgill]

I'm no expert, but I saw a tip on 'The WoodWright Shop' this weekend that might help. Look at the reflection of the piece in the saw blade and keep the reflection of the top straight to the original rather than watching the line.

[Wilbur Pan]

Sawing straight is key to making good dovetails. People use both western and Japanese saws with good results. Personally, I like Japanese saws.

But there is no substitute for practice. If you are having problems sawing to a line, try this excercise. Take a 3/4" board with a square edge, and clamp it so that the board is vertical. Take a square and draw one or two dozen vertical lines about as long as you need to make a dovetail, and practice sawing. This will help with cutting the pins.

After you have this cut down, take whatever you use for a dovetail marking gauge, and make a bunch of slanted lines, and practice cutting again. This gives you an idea of cutting the tails.

Finally, when it comes time to actually making the joint, don't worry about the first set of cuts too much. The cuts you need to be more precise with is the second set of cuts, whether you go tails or pins first.

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Rob,

In my experience, a rip saw will cut the tails (and pins) faster and straighter. The crosscut saw is unhappy cutting into end grain, and shows it in many ways. A fine toothcount (like 14-15 in a western saw or 17-19 in a Japanese saw) gives you a more precise and predictable start.

On the tails, Ian Kirby long ago made one of the best suggestions I have read in print, and that is to make the very first cut to start the kerf directly plumb--don't angle on the first cut. The idea is that what is important about the tails (assuming you're going tails first) is that the sawcuts be dead square to the sides, and therefore the entry cuts should be exactly parallel with each other. That's really all that's important on the tails cut; if you don't track the marks exactly, doesn't matter much because the pins will be marked to match whatever you have cut for the tails. The pins are really the money cuts--but you do have to have the tails cuts square to the sides, and starting the kerf vertical will really help.

Someone who is already up the learning curve on dovetails, can cut them with about anything. But an excellent saw is important (IMO) when you're starting out, plus it makes sawing a pleasure for life.

Wiley

[Don C Peterson]

Unlike Wilbur, I had nothing but frustration with Japanese style saws and found that when I tried a good (sharp and well set) western style saw, my results improved dramatically. To each, their own... and your results might be better using Japanese style saws, who knows?

Since you already have what sounds like a couple of good western style saws, though I'd recommend sharpening them and then practice. For me, it was starting a cut that proved to be the biggest hurdle. When starting a cut, NEVER press down on the saw, in fact, it helps quite a bit to hold the saw up so that not all the saws weight is resting on the wood. You just want the saws teeth to "kiss" the wood on that first stroke. Cross cut saws are generally a bit easier to start.

However, it seems to me that when trying to use a cross cut saw to do dovetails, since you are always cutting at an angle, and the teeth are filed at an angle, the saw wants to pull ever so slightly in toward the accute angle (the direction the saw is tilted). It isn't much, and it might just be my imagination, but I think it happens. Other than that, my results are that a cross cut saw does work, but offers no benefit over a rip saw.

[Don C Peterson]

Oh, yeah, I forgot to add that while sawing anything, but especially tight joinery work (like dovetails) you really need to keep your hand and arm relaxed. Don't fight the saw, let it do the work. It's kind of a paradox that the tighter your grip the less accurate the saw will cut. This assumes a well tuned saw of course...

[Rob Luter]

Thanks to all for the good advice. I've been practicing following angled lines, but the saw just doesn't want to track straight. I'm sure that part of the issue is sharpness. I have to apply some down force in able to get it to cut and that doesn't help the tracking. Once I get my tenon saw tuned up I'll give it another try. If that doesn't help I'll try a rip saw. I've got a cheap Irwin jamb saw that's set up like a Ryoba, with crosscut on one side and rip on the other. It cuts fast on the crosscut side, but with no spine it wanders. The rip side is really coarse. It has me thinking about a new Japanese rip saw with a fine pitch and a spine on the back. They're relatively inexpensive and I can always use another saw (or plane, or chisel, etc.).

Variety is the spice of life. I like spice.:D

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks to all for the good advice. I've been practicing following angled lines, but the saw just doesn't want to track straight. I'm sure that part of the issue is sharpness. I have to apply some down force in able to get it to cut and that doesn't help the tracking. Once I get my tenon saw tuned up I'll give it another try. If that doesn't help I'll try a rip saw. I've got a cheap Irwin jamb saw that's set up like a Ryoba, with crosscut on one side and rip on the other. It cuts fast on the crosscut side, but with no spine it wanders. The rip side is really coarse. It has me thinking about a new Japanese rip saw with a fine pitch and a spine on the back. They're relatively inexpensive and I can always use another saw (or plane, or chisel, etc.).

Variety is the spice of life. I like spice.:D

Does it always drift to the same side? If so it could be overly set on that side. Try making one light pass of a fine honing stone on that side of the teeth from the heel of the saw to the toe. Then try to make another cut. If it still drifts to that side, make another pass with the stone. Keep doing this until it tracks straight.

If it does not track to the same side each time, it's likely your technique. When you saw, watch both lines at the same time, start the cut at the near corner and progress down both lines simultaneously. Keep an almost open handed grip on the saw while sawing. Guide the saw and let it do the cutting at it's own pace, don't force it. Pressing harder doesn't make it cut faster. Cutting speed is a function of the tooth shape and pitch (PPI) of the saw. If it's sharp, the weight of the saw will be enough to progress it through the cut. If it's not sharp and you have to press it to get it to cut, no amount of practice will help you and could actually teach you bad habits so stop practicing until you can sharpen the saw or have it sharpened.

If you let us know where you are located, maybe a fellow Creeker can help you get the saw tuned up good.

[Rob Luter]

South Bend, IN

[Don Pierson]

Assuming you are right handed...stand with your right foot behind your left foot. The object is to have your hand foream elbow upper arm all move in a plane rotating about the shoulder joint. I read about it somewhere and it helped with my saw cuts...it also helps when shooting pool. And then there is the right eye left eye aiming problem...hope this helps. If practice does not help then change something and practice some more. For some of us this stuff is not easy! I have tried several saws and perfer the pull saws.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Rob, I think I followed the same learning curve you embarked on, here are a few lessons I learned along the way.

1. Softwoods are really not good material to learn on, they are too sensitive and unforgiving, errors gets amplified. Midrange woods are great, think Mahogany, poplar, walnut etc. Hard Maple and oak require sharp tool and can be frustrating as well.

2. There is no substitute for practice. Draw a bunch of parallel lines ||||||||| on a board and start cutting. As you get more practice you will develop a ritual/form. A quality tool will not make up for lack of skill.

3. I have tried both Japanese and western saws, despite trying I couldn't get used to the Japanese saw handles, even though I liked how they cut. You can get a very cheap saw from Harbor Freight that will let you try out the Japanese option before you commit to a more expensive saw.

4. Make a complete DT joint (pins and tails) glue 'em, date 'em and keep 'em for future reference. It will allow you to see if you keep on making the same mistakes.

5. rip or crosscut does not make as big of a difference as you might think. I get better results if I do not use saws with very fine teeth, because I need to make way too many passes and slowly I start loosing form. On a 3/4" thick board a 8-10 TPI saw is probably all you need. Anything finer will only slow you down.

Just my 2C

[Marcus Ward]

Here is my experience:

1. softwoods are great because if you mess up the cut they'll still go together since the wood will just compress and fit. Oak is fine too but you have to be very precise. No forcing or it'll crack.

2. This is good practice. Also do diagonal lines the same angle as a tail cut.

3. I had the same experience. I couldn't get a straight cut with a very nice japanese saw so I use old disstons.

4. Make one dovetail per day out of your scraps. After a few months you'll be a super ninja at it.

5. I have noticed a difference myself. Crosscut is too slow and feels odd in the wood. I have a 13 tpi saw that cuts great and very fast. My latest saw is going to be 15 tpi, I think it'll be fine. I want a very smooth cut so the teeth have very minimal set, maybe .002. Rougher toothed saws tend to have more set and leave a rougher surface. My big disston crosscut D-8 is 8 tpi, I can't imagine cutting dovetails with it.

My 2 cents. Now you have 4. :)

[Rob Luter]

Thanks guys,

I've been continuing to practice holding a line (both straight and angled) but am going to wait on more dovetailing until I get my saws sharpened. I've found that with my two Disston hand saws I can follow a line really well, even though they're rather dull.

I find that the error I was getting during dovetail attempts was more or less the same each time. After a close inspection, the PA dovetail saw showed some twist in the blade. It's not much, but enough that the cut line on the exit side (back side) of the tail tended to drift right. If the tail was on the left of the cut it drifted into the waste and I could fix the tail with a paring chisel. If the tail was on the right it drifted into the tail and spoiled it. The end result was that the shape of the tail changed through the thickness of the board. It often fit fine at the bottom, but left gaps you could throw a cat through on the show surfaces. Pins have been pretty simple as I can leave a bit of waste and pare to size. Once I can get the sides of the tails square with the face of the board I'll be in good shape.

My Jackson tenon saw is good and straight, but it was really dull. Once it's sharp I'll give it another crack. I'm getting my Disston D-8 crosscut and D-8 lightweight rip saw sharpened at the same time. I thought I'd have a local sharpener do it right the first time so once I get the materials to sharpen them myself I have some sort of benchmark.

I may pick up an inexpensive Japanese Dovetail Saw as well just to get a gut check on how they work.

[Alex Carrera]

I shouldn't say this here, but I cut my tails at the table saw with a special blade, and then do everything else by hand. I can cut pins straight, but can't seem to do that well with the tails.

[Sam Yerardi]

I was going to mention something I thought was interesting that is similar to what Alex suggested. I saw it the other day in a Fine Woodworking article. The guy was making 4 period bookcases (job total $68,000 or so) and had to make 40 drawers so he used a router jig and cut all the pins with a router and then cut all the tails by hand. I'd never thought of that and have never tried it. I've always done mine by hand. As far as what is the best way there a million ways to make them and it seems everyone has a different way. I think whichever way is comfortable for YOU and gets the results you're looking for - that's the best method. I tell the same thing to my guitar students - there is no one CORRECT way to play the guitar.

[Todd Bin]

Does guiding the router with your hand count as a hand cut dovetail? :D

[Rob Luter]

Just a follow up.......

A sharp saw makes all the difference :D . I got my little Jackson saw sharpened and gave it another whirl. The first try actually looked pretty good. It fit together well with minimum gaps. I'm expecting the Brown Truck to drop off a new Japanese Rip Dovetail Saw any day now. I should be able to get downright precise with that. I'll post pics soon.

[Mark Roderick]

Practicing over and over helps. A really good saw also helps, and it sounds to me as if that's your main problem. The first time I tried a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw at a woodworking event it made a huge difference in my ability to cut straight. I'm not saying you have to spend that much money. You can find magazine reviews where they give good marks to much cheaper saws. I'm just saying not to get mad at yourself until you've tried cutting with a better saw than you have now.

[Joe Skinner]

I tell you what is more frustrating than learning to saw straight. I was practicing and trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. I was just about to the point of blaming the saw and I needed a new one. Then my 10 y/o came into the shop and cut about 7 or 8 perfect lines. Laughed at me and said there was nothing wrong with the saw. (sigh) more practice.

[Hank Knight]

Rob,

I think you found you answer. A sharp, well tuned saw makes all the difference. For years I tried to cut dovetails with a 18 tpi Tyzac back saw my father gave me. The saw was filed crosscut and it wandered all over the place. I gave up in frustration, convinced that hand cut dovetails were a myth. Then I tried a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw and it was a epiphany. It cut straight and fast. I bought one and I've been cutting dovetails ever since. I've learned that you don't need to spend a fortune on a good saw. All you need to do is to make sure your saw is sharpened and set properly. It sounds like your Jackson fills the bill.

I have several suggestions to add to the pile you already have:

1. At least for the immediate future while you're still getting the hang of dovetails, pick one style saw, either Western or Japanese, and stick with it until you've got the dovetail technique down. The technique for pull saws and push saws are different and they require some learning and practice to develop skill. If you're trying to master two different kinds of saw at the same time you're trying to master dovetails, your job will be much harder. After you've become proficient with one style, try the other one. You may find you like it better. You will almost certainly find switching dovetail saws easier after you've developed some basic skills cutting dovetails.

2. I agree with the comment that soft woods are not good for practice. You need a crisp cut line for dovetails and soft pine doesn't lend itself to that. By the same token, very hard woods like oak or hard maple present their own problems. They are relatively difficult to saw, compared to other cabinet woods like cherry, soft maple or walnut, and chiseling them is similarly difficult. Get some soft maple or poplar for practice. They hold a nice line and chisel cleanly and easily.

3. Very small gaps can be remedied in the last step. If you cut the pins a little proud of the tail board, you can take care of small gaps by planing the pins flush in the direction of the gaps. The plane will crush the pin fibers slightly, expanding them to fill the gaps.

4. With all due respect to Zahid, I disagree with his suggestion that an 8 to 10tpi blade is optimum for dovetails. 10, maybe, at the outside, but I think 8 tpi is too coarse. I do agree that too fine a blade makes the task difficult. Part of my problem with my old Tyzac was that the point count (18 tpi) was too fine. The cut took too long and my technique was not good enough to maintian consistencty throughout the cut. The 15 tpi LN dovetail saw was a nice change. It cut quickly, and with the rip tooth profile, I found that I could hold the line and finish the cut efficiently and accurately. I think my next dovetail saw will have 12 tpi for speed. I believe tooth count, and to some degree the tooth geometry, are personal preferences. But don't start fooling around with those details until you have a good handle on the technique. They will only confuse you and make learning harder. Stick with a tried and proven saw while you are learning.

My $.02

Hank

Edit: Another point I forgot - if you're having trouble cutting the tail angles, tilt the work piece in the vice so you're actually cutting plumb. Sounds hokey, but it works.

Hank

[Rob Luter]

I've been tilting the workpiece as you suggest so my lines are always vertical. I also found that holding the saw handle with a relaxed two handed grip keeps things straight. Each hand tends to "cancel the other out" with respect to pressure that will cause the blade to go astray.

I've spent a little time with a Japanese style saw, and found it comfortable to use. My Jackson will be held in reserve for crosscut work on tenons. It works ok for dovetails, but the blade and set makes for a kerf that's a little wider than I'd like.

Once I start doing this more I may need to have a nice Western dovetail saw too. Can you have too many saws? :D

[mike holden]

"Can you have too many saws? :D"

NO!

Like they say: You cant be too rich, too thin, or have too many saws!

Of course, you cant be too rich and have too many saws! :):)

Mike