Morris Chair legs AKA "Me and the Lock Miter Joint"

[George Bregar]

As you may know I've recently built a Morris Chair having four QS faces by using the lock miter joint. I have to admit that I ended tossing the first leg, because the joints were so poor because of a failed technique. Since many people have contacted me via PM with questions, I thought I would post what I did, issues I had, and see what other Creekers would do.

I started by milling 16 (4 legs x 4 sides) to a rough dimension of 2 3/8" W by 24" long. I knew when all was done I would be running them through the Performax to clean them up.

A critical step is to make sure that the stock is perfectly flat, and the exact same width. If it is not, the joint won't close and/or the legs won't be square. I used QSWO, so getting it flat wasn't too much of chore, and used featherboards to hold the stock tight to the fence for an accurate and consistent width of cut.

I then took the blanks to the bandsaw, set the table at 45, and cut out a notch on each end to reduce the stock that the router would have to handle in the one pass required on each edge.

My blanks looked like attached...off to the router table.

[George Bregar]

The first pass I made on the RT was the horizontal. You cna see it in the attched pic, with the line of cut being the red line You can start to see the challenge, the surface on the table, and against the fence, is narrow. The flat pass wasn't too hard to keep the stock flat on the table and tight to the fence.

[George Bregar]

Here is where it got dicey for me...the second "vertical" pass. As you can see from the pic, there is very little flat against the fence, and a single point of connection on the table. I found it impossible to keep the piece flat against the fence and against the table, it want to rock, the results were very poor (and ended up in the firewood pile :mad:). The bit is very large, you are eliminating a lot of stock, and the 45 deg cut wants to lift the stock. Keeping a balance of pressure to keep the board against the fence, against the table, and through the cut is hard. I had to eliminate one.

[George Bregar]

What I ended up doing was clamping a tall fence to table to pin the blank against the fence 9see pic). This eliminated any ability for the piece to rock, and I simply had to put downward pressure against the table, while pushing the blank through the cut. The only issue there is that the edges are sharp.

I was thinking about creating a matching push stick to do this next time. It would have the matching lock miter profile. See pic.

Anyway, the final result was great, but any suggestions on a better technique would help me and others.

[Raymond McInnis]

George, your methods look great and success is a "feel good". While I have no images, I created a jig for my robland x31 sliding table that has similar specs -- if you can imagine transitioning from a router table to a table saw -- and the secret is the hold-downs that keep the workpieces secure during the cut.

I have a lock-miter bit, but have never used it to create a project, largely because it requires so much accuracy. I commend you for your success.

When I made my qswo legs, I just glued up the flat mitered edges.

I have a morris chair project planned for the future and may be calling on you for advice.

http://www.woodworkinghistory.com

[George Bregar]

Thanks. The set up on the LMJ is really easy, so don't let that keep you from using it. Just put the "lock" roughly in the middle, they'll match. I have the big one for thicker stock.

The resulting joint, done properly, is really easy to glue up. I used 3M blue tape every 3" as clamps. Very tight and strong joint.

[Raymond McInnis]

I too use the blue tape.

I will be laminating qswo slices to each of the four leg sides, and am going to try the same laminating thing on the large arms, providing the lamination is not too evident.

if you posted a pic, sorry I didn't see it.

would like to see the method you used on spacing the spindles on each side

[George Bregar]

I too use the blue tape.

I will be laminating qswo slices to each of the four leg sides, and am going to try the same laminating thing on the large arms, providing the lamination is not too evident. Why? To save over buying QS stock? What would be the base? I'm not sure who that would work with the bend in the arms, if you will be using that design.


if you posted a pic, sorry I didn't see it.

would like to see the method you used on spacing the spindles on each side I just laid them out with a square clamping the tops and bottoms together for a match. Used a mortiser. The spindles are 1-1/4 wide x 5/8" thick with 1" space between. I like the proportion.

[Raymond McInnis]

george, what i have in mind for a design is the one on p 63 of lang's shop drawings for craftsman furniture, published in 2001. you'll note the straight/flat arms. i will change the spindles on the sides, though.

my preference is for square ones, but i don't know the dimensions yet. if you look at the sofa table on the right -- barely visible, to the right of the armoire -- of the jpg on my homepage http://www.woodworkinghistory.com you may be able to see what i mean by square spindles.

incidentally the sofa table (and the four side tables) i made come from woodsmith

[George Bregar]

george, what i have in mind for a design is the one on p 63 of lang's shop drawings for craftsman furniture, published in 2001. you'll note the straight/flat arms. i will change the spindles on the sides, though.

my preference is for square ones, but i don't know the dimensions yet. if you look at the sofa table on the right -- barely visible, to the right of the armoire -- of the jpg on my homepage http://www.woodworkinghistory.com you may be able to see what i mean by square spindles.

incidentally the sofa table (and the four side tables) came from woodsmith Sorry, the pic is too small. I used the Woodsmith plans for my home, and for my cottage. The stuff for home was exact to plans...more formal. I modified the plans for my cottage. Larger spindles, no tapers or bevels, no beveled tops. I wanted a heftier less formal look. The coffee table was 1/3 smaller than the plans, and I also made a needed corner TV stand modified from the end table plans. All in all, three end tables, one coffee table, and a TV stand.

[Raymond McInnis]

george please post a side-profile shot of the morris chair

[George Bregar]

I di in #3. What are you looking for?

[Raymond McInnis]

george, sorry for the confusion. i did see that image, but on my screen, i can't see the upper part, where the large arm and slanting back is exposed.

i would like to see the arm in relation to the spindles

again sorry to be a pain

what type of covering on the cushions?

[George Bregar]

george, sorry for the confusion. i did see that image, but on my screen, i can't see the upper part, where the large arm and slanting back is exposed.

i would like to see the arm in relation to the spindles

again sorry to be a pain

what type of covering on the cushions?No problems. How's this. And I'm going to do them in leather.

[Raymond McInnis]

george, i saved your jpg and happy to say that I plan leather covered cushions too

[Raymond McInnis]

forgive me for asking one last question: where do your morris chair plans come from? where are they published?

[George Bregar]

forgive me for asking one last question: where do your morris chair plans come from? where are they published? The Woodsmith online plans site www.plansnow.com. The exact link is http://plansnow.com/morrischair.html

[Raymond McInnis]

george, this is getting ridiculous. we're having a private conversation in public

am it correct? you changed the shape of the spindles? anyway that is how i interpret it

[George Bregar]

george, this is getting ridiculous. we're having a private conversation in public

am it correct? you changed the shape of the spindles? anyway that is how i interpret it Yes I did. IIRC the plans call for 5/8" square spindles with a 5/8" space between, and as I said, I changed mine to 1 1/4" wide by 5/8" with a 1" space between. I like the look and proportion better. The other changes I made to the plans was that I pinned my tenons with a 3/8 square peg, rather than 3/8" dowel. And I kep the peg about 1/8" proud with beveled edges (made with a file before inserting) and stained black with India ink. I like the look. Only other deviation was that I did not use a through mortise on the leg to arms connection. The horizontal part of the arms is just made to rest a drink, and a through tenon in the middle of that makes a spill a likely event. ;) Oh, my legs are a 2-3/8 sq, versus 2-1/4".

[Frank Conway]

George,

Thanks so much for taking the time to go over this in your post (and answer my PM's). This will save me (and others I imagine) time (and wood) learning it the hard way.

Frank

[George Bregar]

You're welcome Frank, and to answer the question in the PM (I can't do it there because I can't attach a pic) the advantage of using 3/4" milled stock over the 1-1/16" I used is that you get a wider flat which helps in routing the lock miter joint. This picture shows why

[John Dorough]

George,

Thanks for all the information. I hope to be able to build a chair such as your some day. Your first four posts had to do with preparing the stock used for glue-up to make the four components of each leg. You graciously invited any suggestions to make the process you used easier. This is not really a suggestion, but more of a couple of questions that may unintentioanally sound like a suggestion. I look forward to any help you may provide.

You stated (first post), "I then took the blanks to the bandsaw, set the table at 45, and cut out a notch on each end to reduce the stock that the router would have to handle . . . " By a notch on each end, are you referring to what looks to me in your illustration to be beveled cuts that run the entire length of each piece of wood, ". . . 2 3/8" W by 24" long . . " that made up the components for each leg? If not, I'm not sure where a single "notch on each end" is located.

It appears you also chose to make the first finished bevel cut on each component by making what you call a "horizontal" cut. You then attempted a "vertical" that was made "dicey" because, " . . there [was] very little flat against the fence, and a single point of connection on the table."

My question is this: Why not make the "vertical" in a couple of passes on the router table before you even make the first "notch" (full-length bevel cut shown in your first post)? It seems to me that in this way, you have a much larger ". . . flat [surface] against the fence"; and, the only time you will have, ". . . a single point of connection on the table. . " is when you make the last vertical pass which gives you the finished bevel. After this is done, could you not then do the band saw trim to the unfinished portion and, then, simply lay the piece flat for the horizontal cut necessary to bring the piece to final dimension?

You are far more advanced in woodworking than I will ever be; and, my questions may simply reflect my ignorance of issues involved. If so, I apologize in advance. On the other hand, I suppose if we don't ask questions, we often miss replacing our ignorance with knowledge.

Thanks for your time.

John

[George Bregar]

George,

Thanks for all the information. I hope to be able to build a chair such as your some day. Your first four posts had to do with preparing the stock used for glue-up to make the four components of each leg. You graciously invited any suggestions to make the process you used easier. This is not really a suggestion, but more of a couple of questions that may unintentioanally sound like a suggestion. I look forward to any help you may provide.

You stated (first post), "I then took the blanks to the bandsaw, set the table at 45, and cut out a notch on each end to reduce the stock that the router would have to handle . . . " By a notch on each end, are you referring to what looks to me in your illustration to be beveled cuts that run the entire length of each piece of wood, ". . . 2 3/8" W by 24" long . . " that made up the components for each leg? If not, I'm not sure where a single "notch on each end" is located.

It appears you also chose to make the first finished bevel cut on each component by making what you call a "horizontal" cut. You then attempted a "vertical" that was made "dicey" because, " . . there [was] very little flat against the fence, and a single point of connection on the table."

My question is this: Why not make the "vertical" in a couple of passes on the router table before you even make the first "notch" (full-length bevel cut shown in your first post)? It seems to me that in this way, you have a much larger ". . . flat [surface] against the fence"; and, the only time you will have, ". . . a single point of connection on the table. . " is when you make the last vertical pass which gives you the finished bevel. After this is done, could you not then do the band saw trim to the unfinished portion and, then, simply lay the piece flat for the horizontal cut necessary to bring the piece to final dimension?

You are far more advanced in woodworking than I will ever be; and, my questions may simply reflect my ignorance of issues involved. If so, I apologize in advance. On the other hand, I suppose if we don't ask questions, we often miss replacing our ignorance with knowledge.

Thanks for your time.

John Thanks for your kind words. I worded it poorly, I didn't cut a 45 on the end, but edge of each piece. This is done to remove as much stock as possible so the router can finish the job in one pass. I suppose you could do this with the router, but it would be too time consuming (it would take multiple passes), and router bits cost a lot more than bandsaw blades. So just knock off the corners with the bandsaw...or table saw. You cannot do what you are suggesting because the fence cannot be moved otherwise the two cuts will not match.

Make sense?

[George Bregar]

george please post a side-profile shot of the morris chair Hows this?

Edit: See my Morris Cahir done thread...it has the pic. WOn't let me do it here.