WoodWorker II blade question

[Ken Shoemaker]

I got a WW II 40T and just haven't been happy with the cut. I've been cutting alot of red oak and find that the blade leaves 1/8th inch, VERY thin, squre, chips on the cross cut, rips are fine. I've tried raising and lowering the blade to see if that would help - not.

BTW - I've got the saw tuned so that I can stand an 1/8" drill bit on end, turn the saw on and off with the bit still standing.

I bought the blade because of glowing recomendations, but just not impressed.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Ken

[Brian Kent]

Zero clearance insert?

[Bruce Page]

Ken, I can get that with my WW if I feed to quickly. Crosscutting performance is also improved if you can raise the blade so the gullet is above the board and the blade’s teeth are coming down on the workpiece. I raise the blade high like that only if I feel it is safe to do so. As good as the WWII is it is still a compromise between a dedicated rip blade with fewer teeth, and a dedicated crosscut blade with more teeth.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Excuse my obvious question, but... Are you certain that the blade and miter slot and fence are aligned? I have two WW II blades for my table saw, and I get very clean crosscuts in just about any material.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Welcome to the wonderful world of over hyped WWII ownership. Most feel that because it is expensive, as compared to other blades, it has to be better. Red oak probably splinters more than any other wood. Try putting some blue painters tape on bottom of stock where you will be cross cutting it. Even 96 tooth blades on the miter saws have trouble with red oak and splintering. I don't ever recall seeing a production shop in my area running Forrest blades. Here, most run Freuds. Yeah, I know some one is going to take me to task for not worshiping Forrest blades.

[Gary Keedwell]

Welcome to the wonderful world of over hyped WWII ownership. Most feel that because it is expensive, as compared to other blades, it has to be better. Red oak probably splinters more than any other wood. Try putting some blue painters tape on bottom of stock where you will be cross cutting it. Even 96 tooth blades on the miter saws have trouble with red oak and splintering. I don't ever recall seeing a production shop in my area running Forrest blades. Here, most run Freuds. Yeah, I know some one is going to take me to task for not worshiping Forrest blades.
Well, it won't be me. I have two of them and am not overly impressed. As a matter of fact, I'm working on my Morris chair right now and my choice to cut my QSWO has been my freud. My cross cuts have been as smooth as a babie's behind.
Gary

[Dave Falkenstein]

...Yeah, I know some one is going to take me to task for not worshiping Forrest blades.

Have you ever used one Bruce?

[Ken Shoemaker]

Thanks for all the comments. Here are some answers.

ZCI = Yes, always, even on 45 degree miters. I have several of them.

Blade parallel to miter slot = Dead on. I bought the Mster Plate and Dial indicator. 4' straighedge and got all the table wings flat.

I will try lifting the blade higher... MAN, this S*%KS!!!!!! I spent alot of money on this thing as I know you all did. It's funny, I bought a blade at a ww show a couple years ago and it was without a doubt the best blade I ever had. It was a heck of alot cheaper than this... Sorry for the rant.

[Bob Genovesi]

Hi Ken,

I agonized over the same decision and decided to stay with my Freud dedicated blades. I have Freud's rip, crosscut, and combination and while I know it's a pain to swap them, I feel the results are better in all cases, I just plan my cuts.

Bob

[Jeff Wright]

Ken, I believe Forrest will refund your money if you are not happy. Why not give them a call?

[Doug Shepard]

I've got a Forrest Dado King and have been real happy with it. After years of reading glowing comments on the WWII I finally bought one a year ago last fall during a VG Amazon sale. Didn't get around to using it until just this last fall though. I was interested in reducing the amount of blade changes from my normal blades which are a Freud 80T croscut and a Freud 24T rip blade. While I think it's a good blade I dont think it's going to reduce or replace my use of either of those 2 Freuds. It's just not as good at crosscutting or ripping as the dedicated blades. More chipping on the crosscuts and sheet stuff and a bit of burning on rips through 8/4 purpleheart. I would need to do a comparison with another combo blade in order to give a fair assessment how it stacks up there.

[scott spencer]

If all is as it should be, the Forrest is as good as any 40T general purpose blade going. I've used a few WWII's and all were good, but that doesn't mean that every example is up to snuff. IME, the performance of the WWII has been on par with other top general purp blades like the Ridge Carbide, Infinity Combomax and Super General, Tenryu Gold Medal, and DW7657, which all typically gave a slightly better performance to the DW7150PT, LU84, LU86, Tenryu RS25540 and RS25550, and Leitz 40 and 50T...haven't tried a Freud Fusion yet.

A general purpose blade is a compromise by design that won't excel while working in the ranges of a good specialized crosscut or rip blade. It will typically outperform a lower end crosscut or rip blade though. The WWII's crosscut performance is eclipsed by an LU80, LU74, DW3218, Leitz 80T, CMT, LU88, etc. It's ripping performance is cleaner than a 24T blade but bogs down and burns more in very thick wood.

With that said, it's likely that there is something not right with your WWII, or you were expecting it to outperform a good specialty blade. Usually when we try a blade, we try a sample size of "one", which may or may not be representative of the population....some variability is at play here, which is a present with any brand, but you'd expect a $100 blade to have superior QC to a $50 blade. Did this WWII come from Amazon? (this isn't the first Amazon wWII complaint I've read) What blades were you using before that gave better results? I'd contact Forrest and describe your setup and your results.

[Brian Hale]

I've got 2 WWII's 40t and also feel they're a bit over hyped and over priced. The first i got from Woodcraft and wasn't impressed at all for a blade at that price point but thinking it might just be that single blade i purchased another one from Amazon when they had a sale on them about a year ago. Same results. I then sent one to Forrest for resharpening. No improvement.

Over all it's a nice General Purpose blade but it's not a substitute for a dedicated rip or crosscut blade. For a general purpose blade it's certainly as good as my LU82M010 60 tooth GP blade which sells for ~$45.

Brian :)

Edit: Another thing to consider is that the WWII doesn't come with a coating like the Freud and as anyone who has cut oily wood can attest, cleaning it can be a real PITA.

[Mike Cutler]

Try putting some blue painters tape on bottom of stock where you will be cross cutting it. Even 96 tooth blades on the miter saws have trouble with red oak and splintering.

Ken
This is a very viable solution. I use this method with Wenge all the time. Use the 2" wide Blue Painters tape and really press it into the wood.

One test you can make to seperate out the problem is to put your material on a sled. If there is any gap between the material and your installed ZCI you can get chipping. The sled will provide a dead reference and support the cut edge.

I must be in the minority here. I've always had good success with the CMT blades. I'll have try some of the blades in Scott's post.
I think Brian wins the cool TS blade collection award. Those are some nice blades you have there Brian.;)

[Ken Shoemaker]

I just checked to see what the blade was that inpressed me so much. It appears to be a Signature Series blade made by Oldham. I bought them both (table saw and miter saw) at a woodworking show in Chicago a few years ago. I didn't even know what burning or chipping was, ripping or cross cuts. That was untilll the WWII.

I think the Signature blade is sold at Menards. Well, off I go to see it they have the same thing there.

BTW - Thanks to Jeff for the suggestion. I'll call Forrest tomorrow to see if there is a return policy that will ease my pain. I don't have the reciept because I never thought I'd need it because of their reputaTION.

The saga continues..... Be safe.... Ken

[Jim Becker]

Sorry you've had trouble with your WW-II Ken. While my experience has been excellent with these blades and with none of the issues you describe, it certainly in unacceptable for you to have those problems, IMHO. Do talk this over with Forrest. Perhaps you have a bad grind, but regardless, if you're not satisfied, they need to know.

For the record, I don't currently have a ZCI for my slider, yet I still get no tear-out on the cut line including with sheet goods. For cross cuts, the faces are nearly as smooth as those off the ChopMaster in the CMS.

[Pat Germain]

I've been using a WWII on my cheap, Craftsman CS and it cut like a laser. However, after several months of use, it's dull, dull, dull. I keep cleaning it, and that helped some, but now it just won't cut. I know it's not my saw, because I installed a cheap blade I had laying around the shop and it's cutting fine; although not as cleanly as the WWII did when new.

Saw blades are like many things; personal preference and individual bias are major factors. If paying $100 for a blade really makes you angry, it's likely anything less than miraculous performance will satisfy you.

Just my take.

[Scott Velie]

I have had great luck with my WW2. I will say that after it dulled the first time I sent it back to them for sharpening and it came back BETTER than it was new !.
I am not sure what happened there but perhaps sharpening QC had a better day than Mfg QC.

Scott

[glenn bradley]

Many folks praise their WWII blades but I have never been satisfied since day one. The blade is probably defective as there are way too many people who have good results with them. I keep saying I am going to send it to Forrest for sharpening as I waited too long to get it fixed under warranty. If your's is new I would contact Forrest to get this resolved right away.

P.s. I use an 80T Freud for red oak x-cuts as it is very splinter prone and have excellent results. 40T for x-cut is a compromise, not a solution IMHO.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Have you ever used one Bruce?Yes, I have two of them. But I'm not impressed with one of them. The other hasn't ever been out of the box. IMHO over priced, over hyped.

[scott spencer]

Yes, I have two of them. But I'm not impressed with one of them. The other hasn't ever been out of the box. IMHO over priced, over hyped.


If you're first one had a defect, you might want to check out the 2nd one to see if it's better. If both are bad, you'll have a very compelling case against them. Nothing to lose at this point...

[Steve knight]

I only rip on my tablesaw and most of that is 8/4 stock and most of that has been tropicals like purpleheart and and padouk bubigna and such. I found a 30t ww11 rips faster then any 18 to 24t blade I have used from amana and cmt and a few others. Even on my older jet contractors saw it was a faster ripper. to me it has been worth the money as it cut faster and cleaner then any rip blade I have used. now I would say it is not the best crosscut blade but what do you expect?

[Russell Tribby]

Glad I'm not the only one who hasn't been impressed. I bought my WWII a few months back when Amazon had them on sale. I don't know if I was expecting too much but the blade has not lived up to expectations. I felt like I got a lemon. My Freud combo blade performs better. As soon as I get a dedicated sheet goods blade I plan on just switching blades and planning my cuts.

[Bob Feeser]

I am appreciating learning from the information provided in this thread. I was an avid Freud blade man, then when I spoke to the rep from Incra in regard to the table saw fence, and he told me he had a PM66, and a Unisaw. He used a Forrest WWII on both saws, and hasn't had to change a blade in over a year. So I went for it and bought one. I too was impressed, BUT I do all of my crosscuts on a Makita DCSM saw. The Makita accuracy with the factory blade is giving me cuts so smooth that they are actually glossy on the surface. I make sure to sand them with 220 fine before refinishing, for fear of not having good adhesion on a surface so slick. Since I only rip with the Forrest blade, I haven't had any problems with it.
The things I especially like on the FWWII is that it is exactly 1/8th inch wide. So if I am making small strips, I can cut to the outside of the blade. With the Incra fence giving me instant no effort accuracy when it drops into one of those every 32nd of an inch combed teeth locking, I can simply add 1/8th to the dimension on the rule, and create all the strip cuts I need, all exactly the same. For that procedure if I was using a 7/32nds blade for example, that would make such a procedure a calculating challenge. I have the construction master fractional calculator, which can think in fractions, but it is a lot of input for each cut, whereas the 1/8th of the Forrest is an instant calculation in my head.
With the sharp scoring points on the outside leading edges of the FWWII I haven't had any problems with tear out, but once again, I am not cross cutting with it.
What I appreciate is the comments, especially about the Freud blades. I think that I should go back and experiment some more with them, I have several new or almost new ones on the shelf. With the new saw and more hp I could try a blade with more teeth, and expect even better results.
I always looked at the Forrest as a cross between the ripping capabilities of a 24 tooth blade, and the smoothness of a 60 tooth; kind of a compromise between the two. When I first got the Forrest, I was using it on my 1 hp old Sears contractor saw, and it fit the bill nicely for rip cutting, givng me more of the smoothness of a 60 tooth, while lowering the resistance, more like a 24. I carried that over to the PM.
I thank the contributors of this post for opening my eyes to the possiblities, instead of thinking the FWWII is the cure all. I have some experimenting to do.

[John Michael]

I have owned multiple WWII's 3/32" and 1/8" along with a few custom grinds. I came across a limited schedule project while my 2 standard blades were out for grinding, so I decided to stop by my local supplier and pick-up a second 1/8" so I could start working. Well I put the blade on and started dimensioning a bunch of walnut and was getting blade chatter marks along with some burning that I hadn't experienced before with my other blades. I ended up spending an hour out their re-adjusting this and that thinking something was out of alignment, I put the blade on a mandrel and checked the run-out of the plate which was within spec, anyhow no matter what I did that blade wouldn't cut smooth.

Luckily however, Forrest is a great company and stands by their products. I called Forrest up that afternoon and discussed the issues I was having, and even though the blade was within spec. they quickly issued a UPS call tag and sent me out a new one with zero hassle. Problem solved, the new blade along with my resharpened blades cut with no problems. I used the factory new blade to complete that project during which I made quite a few crosscuts on 7" wide bands of 5/4 stock at a 45 degree angle. As expected great results and no bottom splintering.

So as others have mentioned I would call Forrest and have them take care of you.

[Mike Null]

I'm a hobbyist woodworker and consider the WWII one of the best tools I've ever bought. On my old Craftsman TS I was able to rip 8/4 red oak so smooth you'd think it had been planed.

When I sold the Craftsman I kept the WWII and use it on my Delta with similar results.

[Matt Meiser]

I agree that it sounds like you got a bad one. In my recent trials with 2 different WWII's (both of which were badly in need of sharpening), three different Delta 7657s, a Freud Premier Fusion, and two different Amana's on two differernt saws, the WWII gave the best cuts followed by the Freud Premier Fusion and Amana Prestige which were pretty close, but the Amana is 1/2 the cost of either the Freud or the WWII.

[Randal Stevenson]

I have owned multiple WWII's 3/32" and 1/8" along with a few custom grinds. I came across a limited schedule project while my 2 standard blades were out for grinding, so I decided to stop by my local supplier and pick-up a second 1/8" so I could start working. Well I put the blade on and started dimensioning a bunch of walnut and was getting blade chatter marks along with some burning that I hadn't experienced before with my other blades. I ended up spending an hour out their re-adjusting this and that thinking something was out of alignment, I put the blade on a mandrel and checked the run-out of the plate which was within spec, anyhow no matter what I did that blade wouldn't cut smooth.




John, talk about the custom grinds for a minute. What are your preferences? Have you found while they work better for x, they don't work well (or might cause problems like this), for Y.

Thanks

[Tom Walz]

Cut quality is related to feed rate. Feed rate should be related to motor speed, kerf, sawtip material (different grades of saw tips can be fed faster) as well as top, side and face grinds.

Everyone designs saw blades according to their best estimate of how they will be used. When designing for the home market that involves a great deal of guessing.

Some blades will give beautiful cuts when fed faster than other blades. Blade A may give wonderful cuts at one feed rate but perform poorly when fed faster. Blade B may give great cuts at the faster rate but perform poorly when fed at Blade A’s ideal rate.

Hand feed rates vary greatly and that affects performance. Every combination of blade, machine and material has a sweet spot all its own.

Experienced woodworkers learn how to use a tool. They learn how to adjust the feed rate to give the best results which is why they are generally happiest staying with that brand. The feed rate they learn may be too fast or too slow for other brands.

We do a lot of testing for new product development. A product can be very successful if only half the people, who try it, like it better. A product that works better 90% of the time is the best I have ever seen in 26 years.

Cutting wood is a very sophisticated process. It involves an awful lot of factors including personal preferences.

Tom

[Dennis Parslow]

Am I the only person that owns a Woodworker #1? When I was at a Forrest demo at Woodcraft this year I asked for the best blade for my many plywood projects I had lined up. They suggested a WWI, not II. It worked great for me, but I never hear anyone mention it.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Am I the only person that owns a Woodworker #1? When I was at a Forrest demo at Woodcraft this year I asked for the best blade for my many plywood projects I had lined up. They suggested a WWI, not II. It worked great for me, but I never hear anyone mention it.WWI is mainly for the RAS. That is why you don't hear as much about it.

[Tom Walz]

You can be the best blade company in the world and still not perfect.

I have been doing saw blade failure analysis for over 20 years and have seen problems with all of them.

If you want a really smooth cut find a professional level sharpening shop and talk to them. It should have someone who can hammer saws.

One test is to take a straight edge to your blade. You need a really straight, clean edge, a dark room and a back light. Put the blade on a table with the straight edge on it and the light behind the straight edge. Look for gaps under the edge. Move the straight edge around and rotate the plate.

Maximum gap should be about 0.001” or about the thickness of the cellophane on a cigarette pack.

tom

[David Weaver]

Am I the only person that owns a Woodworker #1? When I was at a Forrest demo at Woodcraft this year I asked for the best blade for my many plywood projects I had lined up. They suggested a WWI, not II. It worked great for me, but I never hear anyone mention it.

The guy I do WWing with has a 60-tooth WWI on his saw (a 5-hp PM 66). It leaves a glass-like surface, but it's easy to burn with if you don't feed hard (it is much harder feeding because of the lesser hook than the WWII). It does a fantastic job on cabinet ply, but I have gotten great results on cabinet ply with my WWII. He recently got a WWII to rip stock and it seems to leave tiny swirls on things where mine does not. Not sure what that could be due to. that said, the quality of the blade overall is still great and on a 5hp saw, the thin kerf WWII blade really rips and cross-cuts like butter.

[Greg Funk]

If you want a really smooth cut find a professional level sharpening shop and talk to them. It should have someone who can hammer saws.
Tom,

I haven't heard of people hammering 10" saws. Do they dish them like larger circular saws?

Greg

[Tom Walz]

Depends on what kind of blade. The big thing is flatness. Tension is important as the blades get thinner. Some of the 10” blades run down to 0.040” on the rim. They will have a tapered or stepped body which really helps (think of a saw blade with built in collars.)

There is kind of a semantic issue here since I think of saws as being ‘tensioned’ so that they don’t ‘dish’.

Canadians sometimes use 'dishing' the same way we mean 'tensioning'. So I guess the best answer is that it is rarely done to ten inch blades. Super Thin Saws may do it but they don’t make saw blades as large as ten inches.

Because you are in Vancouver you are close to some of the finest saw people in the world. Cal Saw Canada is close and their work is incredible. Forintek is associated with the University of British Columbia and I believe they are the best wood research facility on the continent. (Certainly better than anything we have down here.) If you get a chance to visit either one I would recommend that you take it.

Tom

[Greg Funk]

My father in law used to have a sawmill with a 5' or so diameter saw blade. As I recall they used to hammer the blade so that it would be dished at rest. Once it was up to speed the centrifugal force would flatten the blade out. If they started with a flat blade it would vibrate or wobble when it was running at speed.

I go out to UBC about once a week so maybe I'll drop by Forintek sometime.

Greg

[Joe Spear]

It's interesting to hear all the bad experiences with WW II's. I have used about 20 different blades, including a thin-kerf 40-tooth WW II, a regular-kerf 40-tooth WW II, a regular-kerf 30-tooth WW II, a reg.-kerf WW I, a Forrest Duraline HI/AT, and a 6" Forrest dado set. I love them all. I have sent some back to Forrest for sharpening after a few years of use, and they came back as good as new. I also have a Systematic 24-tooth ripping blade, a Ridge Carbide 40-tooth, and one of the DeWalt 40-tooth all-purpose blades (I don't remember the number offhand). They are very good, too. But they don't give as smooth a cut as the Forrests. I even have a couple $10 Harbor Freight blades which have surprised me at how well they work. (However, the carbide tips aren't very big, so I don't expect to spend money sharpening them.) I assume that the Freud Fusion is excellent, but I haven't tried it. I'm sorry that some people have had bad experiences with the blades, but that's the way it is. Expectations, saw quality and set-up, and technique all play a large role in how well a blade is perceived to work. There are also lemons that get out, no matter what the product. I have noticed in reviews that something that is absolutely loved by one person is absolutely hated by another. Sometimes I read about somebody's experience with a machine that I have. If I like the thing and the other person doesn't, I wonder how that other person could possibly be screwing it up. And If I don't like it and the other person does, I wonder about how I could possibly be screwing up. My first experience with a Freud dado set was very bad. Then I realized I had put the blades in backwards. There's no accounting for taste or skill.