Riding the bevel or Elllsworth Style?

[Joel Sauder]

I have just spent the evening watching the Ellsworth Signature Bowl Gouge video. Of the 4 types of cuts he demonstrates, he rides the bevel on only one (a finish cut on the interior of a bowl). This goes counter to what have I have been reading in a couple of turning books (which can be summed up as: ride the bevel, ride the bevel, ride the bevel).

So I am curious, how may Creekers out there ride the bevel with their bowl gouge versus those that go it Ellsworth style. If you do both, in what situations to you use either technique.

Joel

[Doug Thompson]

Roughing never... matter of fact I never rub the bevel except on a finish cut inside and out.

EDIT - correction, I start each cut inside a hat rubbing the bevel (as a starting point) but that could go right into a roughing cut.

[Bill Wyko]

I'll have to get that video. Now I'm curious. :)

[Justin Bukoski]

I'm pretty much a newbie at turning but I have to agree that when I turn bowls I only seem to ride the bevel on my finishing cuts.

[Ben Gastfriend]

I can't say that when I'm hollowing out a bowl I ever ride the bevel. It seems like you get a better cut, but it takes so much longer. I'd rather do 1 "bevel-riding" finish cut than 30 to core out a bowl. Just my 2 cents.

[Paul Heely]

I do both. Depends on the situation.

Roughing out most of the time is no bevel riding but sometimes I do.

Finish cuts on the outside, sometimes a shear cut with no bevel, sometimes a traditional gouge with bevel support.

Inside sometimes a finishing cut like Ellsworth, but I learned it from Angelo Iafrate so do I call it the Iafrate cut?????? (Sorry just a jab at all the different names for the same cuts....) Sometimes I use a traditional grind gouge with bevel, sometimes a scraper.

Different people have different styles and methods. What works for one in situation may not work for another. That's part of the fun though, getting to try different tools and techniques to build our toolbox of knowledge.

[Hilel Salomon]

I'm no expert but I think it depends on the nature of the grind on your gouge.
When I first started turning bowls, I looked at the Ellsworth video and tried the cut he demonstrated. A bent gouge and mangled bowl later, I decided to wait a while. I do use his approach on finish cuts, but only with an ellsworth/ Irish/ fingernail grind. I may be wrong in my approach, but in roughing out a bowl, if it is out of round, I use the sides of my heavy bowl gouges and am relatively close to the bevel. Is this wrong?

[Thomas Minehan]

Unless the gouge is rolled over to be used like a scraper I don't see how it will cut without the bevel touching the wood. So I guess I most always ride the bevel. Sometimes I even change it to get around the inside corners of a bowl bottom. I also find my gouge likes to skate when starting to hollow the inside of a bowl until there is a place for the bevel to start touching.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I use both also. When I take the last couple of cuts when finishing a bowl I use a P & N gouge with I guess they call it the traditional grind and ride the bevel. This gives a pretty smooth finish. Mike Mahoney uses this on his video. Works pretty good for me.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joel.....I use both.....riding the bevel for the finish cuts. Have you seen Bill Grumbine's video "Turned Bowls Made Easy"?


Give me a call Joel....I miss placed your phone number again...old goat..:o

[Dennis Peacock]

Yup....I do both as well. Not ride the bevel sometimes and ride the bevel sometimes. All I can say is that my cuts are better when I ride the bevel, which means there are less tool marks to sand out. :o :rolleyes: :)

[Jim Becker]

I use both techniques and also use the Ellsworth gouge. In fact, I use three of them so I can ease the trips to the grinder. There are various types of cuts one might use with a side-grind; some use the bevel and some (pull cuts for shaping) don't. Finishing cuts always rub the bevel, but one difference with this type of grind is that the particular portion of the bevel engaged with the wood may change as the cut proceeds. (Very true for the interior finishing cut/sweeps as you saw in the video)

[Alex Cam]

I have just spent the evening watching the
So I am curious, how may Creekers out there ride the bevel with their bowl gouge versus those that go it Ellsworth style. If you do both, in what situations to you use either technique.
Joel

Hi Joel,

Have you ever had 'hands on' training from someone who really knows what they're doing? If not, I highly, highly, highly recommend it (did I mention highly?). I don't know if you live near any of the 'masters', but I can't say enough about participating in some of their training. It's the best money you'll ever spend.

That being said, I always ride the bevel with push and pull cuts. Scraping cuts with a bowl gouge are a different story, of course. Think "anchor, bevel, cut". Anchor the gouge to the tool rest, rub the bevel on the blank, then close the bevel angle until you begin to cut (by rotating the gouge). Controlling the angle controls the agressiveness of your cut.

BUT.. my way isn't the only way. Everyone has a method that they're comfortable with that works for them. You just have to find it and keep working at it. Getting hands-on training will go a long way to helping you find it.

[Reed Gray]

An eye opener for me was seeing Christian Burschard (spell?) at a local demo. He used a gouge that had all the bevel ground off. His comment was some thing like "according to all I have heard this shouldn't cut, but it does".

You do ride the bevel differently on the outside of a bowl than you do on the inside, due to the shape of the bowl, concave vs convex. You ride more of the tip of the bevel on the outside, and more of the heel on the inside. this is more of a factor with a swept back grind that it is with a shorter bevel because of the longer or shorter wings. I do round over the bevel on the left side of the gouge for turning the inside of the bowl, as this removes a sharp edge that can bruise the inside of the bowl. If I try hard to ride the bevel on the outside of the bowl, the bumping that you get from cutting from flat grain to end grain seems to be amplified.

robo hippy

[robert hainstock]

I just watched the Bill Grumbine bowl video segment on turning the inside. He uses four differenbt cuts, and only rides the bevel on one. He is an excellant teacher by the way andI like his vids better than anythiong anybody else has. (For what it is worth.):)
Boob

[Tom Keen]

This post had me really confused. I thought I always used the bevel. So I went to the shop and looked closely at what I was doing. Except for turning the gouge over and using it as a scraper I always had the bevel on the wood. I tried my elsworth gouge, finger nail style and production grind. I tried push cuts and pull cuts. It was impossible for me to get the bevel off the wood. Even if I used just the very tip of the gouge there was a bevel on the wood. If the cutting edge isnt supported by some metal, even if its just a tiny bit, the cutting edge will not be supported and catch. Only thing I can figure out is that you must be talking about making a shearing type of cut using the long wing of the elsworth gouge as "riding the bevel". The elsworth gouge let you make all kinds of cuts, but its those nice shearing cuts, pushing and pulling, that make it so handy.

Maybe Im missing something, just my two cents,
Tom

[Paul Engle]

I use a plunge cut like Tim Yoder demo on the PBS seris for roughing, riding the bevel is a must, same action works for near finish cut and I use my finger nail grind at a 30 degre angle ( flute toward the wood to final shearing/ clean up cut if I don't use a carbide insert tilted at 50 to 60 degrees, ) kinda depends on the curve of the bowl.