Epilog Newsletter - gun stock engraving

[Steven Wallace]

I went to the web site and it had some good pictures of the possibilities but no instructions. Any one have any idea how they created the fish scale fill? Or any of the others for that matter.

[Mike Null]

Steve

I don't receive the newsletter but my guess is that they use the post script fill tool. (it's part of the fill tool fly out) There are thousands of options for shapes and fill that you can create with this tool. You can vary the line width and repetition, you can shape them with the power clip, etc.

You can also create the shape you want, use the contour tool to create a 3d drawing then repeat it and position it however you want. All of these will take some time but they are not difficult.

[Peck Sidara]

Steven,

Epilog offers a collection of sample of the month club projects that includes instructions and the actual file. The gun stock engraving was not included in the sample of the month club due to the high cost of gun stocks and varying shapes/sizes etc.

The fish eye sample was created by starting with a cresent in Corel, from there the Interative Mesh fill Tool was used to provide the gradient fill for that 3D look.

It's suggested that you play around with this tool, engrave a few samples on scrap wood, once you get what you're looking for, duplicate and position the fish eye(s) accordingly. Send me a PM if you'd like more info/file.

HTH

[Jerry Allen]

Steve,
I did this sample a long time ago, maybe 3 years, after which I commenced to engrave a gunstock with the fish scales. Unbeknownst to me there was a driver/firmware issue when using a pattern or bitmap with an non-rectangular power clip shape. I have since found a work around in Corel by using a printer option, but I never tried again after I screwed up the first gunstock. Finding the fix was cool but the most important lesson was that if it's expensive or not replaceable, do a test on scrap first.

Anyway, to answer your question, I believe the fishscales are a pattern fill, and I filled them with a gradient fill, lightest at the round end, darkest at the pointed end. Maybe heavied up the outline a little? Maybe not.
Just play with it. Not real hard. Different woods are going to engrave differently so try to practice on the same wood as the stock. I think walnut and maple are the most popular.

[Mike Null]

Jerry

Where did you find the braid pattern?

[Steven Wallace]

It never fails, I ask for assistance and I not only get one great answer but several. This is the greatest forum with the greatest people who's egos don't get in the way and share what they know. Thanks for helping me be successful in my business venture.

[Jerry Allen]

Mike,
I drew it. As I recall it's not real user friendly.
Test file found and attached. I may have some more rope files somewhere.

Steve, you can see how the scales were done in this file.
Don't pay attention to the settings. Way too high.

[Frank Corker]

Jerry that's nice work. On the Epilog website I must admit I do like the Diamond and Trapezoidal Checker and Braided Rope and French Diamond patterns and why they didn't make them available I don't know. I think I like them because they are the one's normally associated with gun stocks, especially the Diamond one.

[Steven Wallace]

I have corel X3 and am learning more about it everyday. That is a good thing as long as the learning is not too painful and or costly. I know painful learning tends to stay with you much longer. Here is the question. I have the pattern designed, now how do I go about making corel use it as a fill once I have the outline drawn? You guys probably have this down and I will be kicking myself if it is too easy. My learning curve seems to be an endless downward spiral.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Jerry that's nice work. On the Epilog website I must admit I do like the Diamond and Trapezoidal Checker and Braided Rope and French Diamond patterns and why they didn't make them available I don't know. I think I like them because they are the one's normally associated with gun stocks, especially the Diamond one.

Hey Frank,
Maybe you could ask Ryan, the new additional Epilog rep, to get these files and post them here. Just a thought...

[Joe Hayes]

I agree with what someone else said, I would like to see Epilog give these files out. Knowing that gun stocks are expensive wouldn't it be better to give us some good proven files rather than us having to try to build these from scratch.




Joe

[Frank Corker]

Seeing as Peck has already commented on this thread, Peck do you have the pattern files mentioned?

[Mike Null]

Jerry
Thanks for the file.

[Peck Sidara]

My fellow creekers, I have the files and can distribute one or another on a case by case basis. Send a PM if you're interested.

[Ben Sieber]

Hello,

I think this would officially be my first post here on the sawmill forum. I'm the graphic designer here at Epilog that created the gunstock patterns. I didn't realize that the patterns would be as popular as they are, but we've had quite a few inquiries since putting out that gunstock engraving page so I thought I would add a little to this post.

The gunstock patterns for the most part are very simple to create. The linear version (trapazoidal, diamond, etc..) were created by filling simple shapes with directional gradients using the Fountain Fill tool in CorelDRAW.

I would stay away from trying to create these types of patterns with the Contour tool. The reason I didn't use the Contour tool was because of how many extra shapes are created to simulate the gradient. I have a pretty beefy computer hear at work, but when I created enough diamonds to fill a 9 x 3 gunstock outline it locked up CorelDRAW everytime, so I went with a different technique.

The fishscale and braided rope patterns were created using the Interactive Mesh Fill tool, which gives you more control over gradients that you want to apply to organic or curved shapes. Within the next few months I should be able to squeeze in a little demo on the tool in the Tech Library section of our site.

Ben

[Ben Sieber]

Hello,


I think this would officially be my first post here on the sawmill forum. I'm the graphic designer here at Epilog that created the gunstock patterns. I didn't realize that the patterns would be as popular as they are, but we've had quite a few inquiries since putting out that gunstock engraving page so I thought I would add a little to this post.


The gunstock patterns for the most part are very simple to create. The linear version (trapazoidal, diamond, etc..) were created by filling simple shapes with directional gradients using the Fountain Fill tool in CorelDRAW.


I would stay away from trying to create these types of patterns with the Contour tool. The reason I didn't use the Contour tool was because of how many extra shapes are created to simulate the gradient. I have a pretty beefy computer hear at work, but when I created enough diamonds to fill a 9 x 3 gunstock outline it locked up CorelDRAW everytime, so I went with a different technique.


The fishscale and braided rope patterns were created using the Interactive Mesh Fill tool, which gives you more control over gradients that you want to apply to organic or curved shapes. Within the next few months I should be able to squeeze in a little demo on the tool in the Tech Library section of our site.


Ben

[Ed Maloney]

Ben - Welcome to the forum! Sounds like you are an experienced Corel guy and that will be of big help for us.

Ed

[Mark Koenig]

My fellow creekers, I have the files and can distribute one or another on a case by case basis. Send a PM if you're interested.

I sent you a PM... Thanks Mark.

[Mike Null]

Ben
Welcome to SMC. We'll be looking forward to your posts.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Welcome to the Creek Ben,

Thanks for the mini tutorial explaining how to crete the Gun stock patterns and more.

It is indeed better to teach a person how to fish than to just give them one.;)

I look forward to trying some myself.

[Ryan O'Hara]

Ben,

Can you load up the files you created to the forum?

[Roy Brewer]

Can you load up the files you created to the forum?Ryan,
I am not speaking as an Epilog official, but I do happen to know that Epilog hires some pretty talented people to maintain certain marketing advantages and as cold as it may sound, management is probably not interested in having those creations show up in competitor's booths.

I like Michael's approach, Ben has offered to teach us to fish; but probably not reasonable to ask him to hand over his fish.

[Bill Cunningham]

I like Michael's approach, Ben has offered to teach us to fish; but probably not reasonable to ask him to hand over his fish.

Now THATS a quoteable quote if I ever read one... :D

[John Lewandowski]

I have tried to laser fish. Leaves my table a mess. The trick is to use a dark grain like salmon. Trout don't mark as well.

[Ryan O'Hara]

Roy,

What's the idea behind the "sample club" then? I bought an Epilog mainly because of all the files that were out there on their website and the willingness from the Epilog folks (and the creek of course) to share stuff. I am not a Corel Expert and I figured a file to actually start with would be beneficial to all.

In alot of my other ventures the open source/open hardware approach has been better in the long run for me. The whole proprietary mindset is outdated and doesn't help anybody out. I think you will find the more open you are with things the more business you will have. It seems counter intuitive at first, but it really has been better for me.

[Ben Sieber]

Hi Ryan,

The sample club section on our website does have some product sample files that you can download and make money with, but from our standpoint we created it as more of an industry resource. It's more of an educational tool to show people the different types of products they can create that they might not have thought about when they first purchased their laser system.

As for the gun stock patterns Peck will be giving them out on a case by case basis so you can PM Peck if you would like a copy. The sample club version of how to create gunstock patterns will be out in the next couple of months.

Ben

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Roy,

What's the idea behind the "sample club" then? I bought an Epilog mainly because of all the files that were out there on their website and the willingness from the Epilog folks (and the creek of course) to share stuff. I am not a Corel Expert and I figured a file to actually start with would be beneficial to all.

In alot of my other ventures the open source/open hardware approach has been better in the long run for me. The whole proprietary mindset is outdated and doesn't help anybody out. I think you will find the more open you are with things the more business you will have. It seems counter intuitive at first, but it really has been better for me.

Hey Ryan,
Last time I checked America is still the land of Opportunity. I don't want to get political on this but Open source has a place but it is not "The Place" for everything. Yes many Creekers share here and I disagree with some of the ones that always ask for a freebie, instead of taking the time to learn and develop their skills to invent their own product/designs. If you are going to make a profit from using someone else's skill/design(s) without their permission, is that fair/right? If someone has original artwork that "THEY" designed and give permission to share and distribute freely, GREAT but I think :confused: many EULA's say that you can not share or distribute the clipart that is supplied or any clipart collections you purchased.

Epilog has many items that they have developed and offer them on their website to help get you started, maybe that's why they call it a "Sample Club". When you go to Sam's, Costco or any of the other stores that offer samples you don't bring your family their and camp out at the Quesadilla table til your full? I don't think the Epilog Sample club should be expected to be your source to produce income, neither should files shared on any forum. I believe that they can be a source for inspiration and to help develop your own ideas from seeing what can be done.

As far as Proprietary mindset being out dated, I absolutely disagree! Many of us have worked endless hours into the wee morning R & Ding, tweaking, prototyping, marketing and spending THOUSANDS of dollars developing our ideas and bringing them to market to help others and to make a fair profit and hopefully recoup our expenses. Some work and some don't. That comes with the territory of being an Entrepreneur. Please correct me if I am wrong but do you expect us to just give you our designs so you can profit off our high risk investment? Sorry but I still have to pay the bills. No one fills my fridge or supplies my electricity, puts gas in my car or truck for free.

If being more open helps you in you business, that's great but if it is only being open with other peoples stuff and you never actually contribute something that you developed or designed, how have you grown and what is gained?

I have been able to share a few things that I have developed but I don't think that Tom at Laser Buzz would appreciate it if I shared a Military tribute on here just because someone posted a request for one. So according to your philosophy, it would be OK, right?

IMHO Having proprietary rights is the incentive that helps stimulate new development. The market will always decide if someone is overpriced with their product.

[Mike Null]

Right on Michael!

[Ryan O'Hara]

Michael,

Trust me as an Active Duty Captain in the USAF I know about the price of freedom and opportunity, as I am sure many other veterans here at the Creek do. As a small business owner with my wife I also now about paying the bills and keeping the food on the table.

I was asking Ben for the files so that I could better understand the process. I am always interested in learning about new ways to do things. In some cases a picture or in this case a file is worth a thousand words. I need to be able to hold, touch, and manipulate it before I usually get the hang of things. I think that since Ben and Epilog are in the business of selling lasers they would be willing to share such things with their current and possibly future customer base.

Now if I was to ask a private individual, such as yourself Mike K., for the files that would be a different story. Trust me I work endless hours into the wee hours of the night on the products I sell. You know what? I still provide all the necessary documentation so that if someone really wanted to they could reproduce them if they wanted. Some try, some don't. Those that do, usually end up coming back to me anyways. Quite a few times they have come back with big orders when their design departments still couldn't figure it out. I can't tell you how much "extra" work I have gotten because of this open policy.

I am new to this forum, less than a month, oh and wait already a Contributor. I plan on actively posting with help when I can. In the meantime I fully intend to continue to gain insight from this great forum.

Peck, thanks for offering up the files on a case by case basis.
Ben, I look forward to talking with you more offline, keep up the great work.

[Ricky Gore]

This is my first attempt at doing the pattern, it's too late to try it on the laser (wake up the wife :eek:)

But, I seem to have some microscopic white lines between the squares. I was using the grid to align, why is it doing that?

Check it out... (http://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/Diamond1.zip)

[Frank Corker]

Ricky I haven't tried it but I doubt it would make any difference. It's way too tiny. They look very good though

[Ryan O'Hara]

Ricky, I got to try out your files on some birch ply this morning. This material is definitely not my first choice, but the pattern works! I'd play with settings and the material to get the depth right. I used 300 dpi, 100% pwr, and 35% spd on a 45W laser.

Also having the file and being able to dissect how you made the pattern was really helpful! It definitely cemented Ben's description of the process.

http://www.ohararp.com/images/diamond_pattern.JPG

[Ricky Gore]

I've worked a little on them, this is my results so far. I think adjusting the edge pad & mid point in the gradient is going to be the key. Also, the right kind of wood and laser settings will provide better results.

This is on some cheap warped luan I had laying around.. The pictures don't really do them justice, I scanned them so you can't really see the depth.

http://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/Square1.jpghttp://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/Square2.jpghttp://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/Square3.jpg
This last one, I was just trying some other patterns.

Multiple runs in 3D may also help, but I have to get back to my real work for now. :)
Here is the file if anyone is interested. I would love to see any changes you make or any good results you have.
Saved in Corel Version 8 for compatibility. Click Here (http://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/SquarePatterns_Corel-8.zip)

[Bill Cunningham]

I haven't tried it, but perhaps the stamp driver will put a nice slope on the edges of any pattern you come up with..
I have not done any checkering, but years back, I used a oak leaf pattern that was hand sorted into the area.. This was a first attempt using a old single shot cooey.. Turned out not too bad.. You can use just about any design you might want to try.. bitmap or vector to make a nice pattern for a gun stock

[Ricky Gore]

Hey Guys,
I am trying to re-create the french diamond pattern in the Epilog gun stock pictures. I think I have the pattern close, but when I rotate it, the fill does not rotate with it, and it messes everything up.

Load this file (http://www.chiggerhill.com/HCN/FrenchDiamondPattern.zip) and rotate it to see what I mean.

Is there a way to lock the gradient fill so that it will rotate with the object? I tried converting to curves, but that doesn't help.

I've found online that other versions of Corel don't do this.

Thanks,
Ricky

[Frank Corker]

Peck has just sent me the diamond pattern sign. Jeez they are good and I think Ricky is on the way to getting it right. When you have a look at them they look almost like semi-negative pictures.

[Peck Sidara]

Fellow creekers, got alot of requests for the files. I had asked that you send a PM if you were interested and would hand them out on a case by case basis.

My apologies if you did not receive a response. If you're an Epilog customer and didn't receive a response, please PM your machine's SN or business name and I'll get it sent out ASAP.

[Ricky Gore]

If anyone's interested, I have finally got this figured out. I was going about it all wrong. I was trying to do it with the fountain ill tool, that had me chasing my tail for a while. I finally got it using the interactive blend tool. Here's a quick tutorial.

1. Create a box that is dark grey
2. Create a box that is light grey and about half the size of the first one
3. Select the dark grey box
4. Click the Interactive Blend tool. It looks like 4 small squares, it's 5th from the bottom of tools.
5. Click and Drag from Grey box to the light grey box (You'll see a white square when you have it in the center.
6. This will create a bunch of boxes of varying size between them.
7. Drag the ligh grey box on top of the dark grey box it will snap when it is centered.
8. Use the pick tool to select both and group them (CTRL G)
9. RIGHT click the top white box with an [X] in it on the color pallette to remove the outline.
You should now have a nice box with a gradient fill going from light to dark on the edges.
Use the same technique for the little rectangles, and notice that the corner diamonds are larger and have a white front.

Once you complete the whole pattern you can group everything and rotate it 90 degrees to make a diamond. You may want to stretch it a little to the right or left to give more of a diamond look.
Let me know if you have questions.

Thanks,
Ricky

[Roy Brewer]

Is there a way to lock the gradient fill so that it will rotate with the object?Ricky,
I think you might have missed Ben's reference to CorelDRAW's Interactive Mesh Fill Tool(M). While a little more work, that will probably turn out to be your real hero!

[Jerry Allen]

Ricky,
I added a new pattern to your file.
This fill will rotate without a problem.
Somehow the radial fill is locked to the page, where the linear fill is not. Go figure...

[Rodne Gold]

I have never really made any money out of some of the laser samples I have seen on the web from the laser guys, yeh they show the capabilities but none really seem to have serious commercial possibilites. Mostly I have made decent money by thinking laterally and using some of the principles demonstrated in other applications. I have found the newsletter or applications page on the synrad site a far more useful resource then mymnfgrs "sample" page.
Is gunstock engraving really a good application? Unless one is doing serious quantities , I would imagine setting up , sampling , indexing etc of a one off is somewhat of a nightmare.
I can however see applications elesewhere , cos lasers dont do hogging or engraving large surface areas well , and as a background pattern to lets say, a bass relief plaque , this would stop the "roughness" of the deeply engraved surfaces?
I don't think one can really keep "secrets" in this industry or on this board, lots of ppl here will work out the hows and whys of it all. I don't think that the amount or descriptions of samples on any mnfgrs website will really sway anyone to purchase that brand?
What I see is that the lower powered machines we all have are marketed in a sort of "make a $1000 in your spare time" way to mom and pop type establishements , the big money applications are multiples and industrial and as far as I see , the markets are far bigger in that area. I know of plenty mnfgring concerns that would use a laser far more effectively than start ups , gift shops and the like.
My vision was to have banks of lasers churning out product which is further enhanced - I have 6x 30w machines and that is a sort of a start, it allows me the capacity to do multiples real quick.

I digress here , but I also believe the real way to make good money out of lasers is to combine their output with other machinery. For example , the addition of a simple wire bender and some glueing experience will make the market for acrylic cut and engraved items expand to 10x what it is by merely using a laser.
If I were a laser mnfgr , I would be not only marketing the machine, but the consumables and various other allied machinery and be developing new applications using them. The sale is a one off mostly with the machine itself and doesnt provide a total package to the end user.
Once the machine is sold , the revenue stream stops and mostly any other dealings with the purchaser are far less profitable or are warantee related and will consume a lot of the mnfgrs resources.

[Ben Sieber]

I finally got it using the interactive blend tool. Ricky

Ricky, good idea using the interactive blend tool instead. I hadn't tried that, but the blends are much easier to manipulate and the tool gives you more blend type options in the drop down menu.

Thanks,

Ben

[Ricky Gore]

Roy,
I didn't miss it, I just couldn't figure it out, so I went my own direction. I do want to get into and learn the Interactive Mesh Fill Tool though.


Jerry,
Thanks, I will take a look when I get home from my day job tonight.


Ben,
Thanks, I was just trying to figure it out.

Rodne,
I am not doing this to make money, I am using this as a way to learn my way around Corel Draw better. I feel that the better I know my tools, the faster I will be able to setup new jobs. Then of courrse the faster you can setup and get a job running, the more money you will make.

Thanks everyone, for your input.

Ricky

[Steven Wallace]

Thanks Peck for sending me a file to work with and thanks to you other guys for all the suggestions. I engraved the underside of my personal Remington 870 shotgun fore stock. I am very satisfied with the look and won't mind showing it off to try and generate some business. Steve

[Frank Corker]

Steve, looks fantastic!

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Thanks Peck for sending me a file to work with and thanks to you other guys for all the suggestions. I engraved the underside of my personal Remington 870 shotgun fore stock. I am very satisfied with the look and won't mind showing it off to try and generate some business. Steve

Hey Steve,
Very Nice work. One question. Is your name proud of the diamond pattern? The reason I ask is that if the edges of your name are sharp will that make it uncomfortable to slide your hand into position when hunting?
Well I guess it is actually two questions. What do you think? :eek: (oops 3?'s)

I am going to try something with a new program I bought and see if it works any better than Corel. Better in more control and awesome plug ins for some real cool patterns. I will try to post some tests in a few weeks when I am done with the Convention I am going to.

[Steven Wallace]

Michael,

Well, I was thinking about those questions myself. Here's the answer. I just laid out the fishscale pattern and then outlined the text that I had converted to artistic text and then did a white fill. I centered the text over the pattern. There is a little roughness but no more than would be expected of regular checkering. You can't tell where the checkering stops and the letters begin. I like the feel and wish I had run it further up the sides of the stock. I have taken the piece to several gun stores today and have gotten nothing but rave reviews with several promises to get me some business.

Secondly, I used my rotary tool to do this project. I stuck a piece of 3/4" x 10" pipe through the stock. I made two wooden washers to slide onto the ends of the pipe to secure the stock without damage. Then I used two 3/4" pipe caps to hold it all in place. I had to remove the stop on the rotary tool to allow room for the pipe cap. I reset the home position and ran the job at: 600 dpi, 50% speed, 100% power, with the 3D button selected in the advanced tab. I have an Epilog 35watt Mini 18.

Thanks for the compliments!
Steve

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Steven, Glad to hear it is not an issue. That's great that the show and tell will hopefully bring in revenue for you. What did you tell them for approx. price??? I do not have a rotary (yet) but can you get a fair price doing one-ups, equal to what you get normally? Even if the set up time is minimized with a jig (not all stocks are the same size or species)and you have a few stock patterns to choose from. I would think most would want theirs customized unless they intended on selling it. So depending on your layout and laser cycle time (20 to 30 minutes) and then with pick up and delivery that alone could eat your profits unless they ship them to you and you ship them back but that adds up. So if you have to charge $30.00+- plus pick up & delivery figured into how much can the gun store charge to make a profit and still have sales? Maybe it can be an added value for their customer. Something like "all rifles bought this week will get free engraving on their stock" and then you can up sell customization. But you have to have this down pat because one "OOPS":eek: and there goes a days profit:mad:. Like Rodne said unless you have a multiples it may be hard to make a profit but if you enjoy doing it and this it not your main source of income, have fun and may it lead to other bigger jobs for you.