That Old Shop Size Question

[Scott Coffelt]

I know the bigger the better. I am budgeting out costs associated with building a new homestead. So I need to determine approx costs for the lot, home and detached garage.

Shop: I have settled on around 900-1000 sqft with either a single garage door and 36" wide exterior door or no garage door but a double door; and 3 or 4 (24x36) windows. I am leaning towards the garage door but will entertain ideas and comments.

Now for the real question, what is the preference on rectangle versus a more square shaped shop.

The options I am looking at are 24x40 (960sqft) and 28x36 (1008sqft).


I would plan on having a 4x7 1/2 bath with Utility sink and possibly a closet for the Cyclone and Compressors to help dampen the noise, though the cyclone's not really that loud, really more so for the compressors.

Finally, any ideas on what to use for cost per square foot to average. I would have to stuco the front and plan on that side being the norrow dimension. I am wondering if $30/sqft is a good number. I would have the builder get it to a finished shell and electrical panel. I would do everything else. Also I was thinking 2x6's for exterior walls and 9 or 10 foot ceiling.

Too lazy to browse the past posts.

[Carl Eyman]

Boy, do I envy you being able to build a shop. It'll never hapen for me, but . . . .

My two cents is while you are plumbing put in a drain for a shower or tub. You don't have to wall it off to include the tub, but If someone ever wants to put a living unit in it, you may get your investment back several times over.

Sorry I don't feel qualified to comment on your questions.

[Jack Diemer]

At a 1000 sq feet, you are ONLY tripling your current shop size. You need to think BIG. Heck, Terry has 1200 sq ft, Dennis has 1800 sq feet, are you going to take second fiddle to those guys?

Have you planned out where to put all the picnic tables and beer refridgerator? You have to have enough space to have a KC area BBQ where 20 people come over and eat all your food and talk shop. Heck if you do things right, you can sell that old 1023S and put in a MiniMax.

[Bob Powers]

I know the bigger the better. I am budgeting out costs associated with building a new homestead. So I need to determine approx costs for the lot, home and detached garage.

Shop: I have settled on around 900-1000 sqft with either a single garage door and 36" wide exterior door or no garage door but a double door; and 3 or 4 (24x36) windows. I am leaning towards the garage door but will entertain ideas and comments.

Now for the real question, what is the preference on rectangle versus a more square shaped shop.

The options I am looking at are 24x40 (960sqft) and 28x36 (1008sqft).


I would plan on having a 4x7 1/2 bath with Utility sink and possibly a closet for the Cyclone and Compressors to help dampen the noise, though the cyclone's not really that loud, really more so for the compressors.

Finally, any ideas on what to use for cost per square foot to average. I would have to stuco the front and plan on that side being the norrow dimension. I am wondering if $30/sqft is a good number. I would have the builder get it to a finished shell and electrical panel. I would do everything else. Also I was thinking 2x6's for exterior walls and 9 or 10 foot ceiling.

Too lazy to browse the past posts.


Scott,

You may be interested in my experience in building a shop. It is three years old, and is an addition to my house. Just walk through the den, open the door, and you're in the shop! It's convenient, but some of the cost is reflected in the integration with the existing house. I am an amateur, saved my pennies, and this is what I came up with. No golf, no hunting, no fishing, just woodworking.

Exterior dimensions are 24X28. The twenty four foot dimension represents a gable end that's about sixteen feet high exterior. Trusses reduce this to about thirteen feet inside. The side walls are about nine feet high. Walls are 2X6 covered with fire retardent gyp board. Ceilings also are same gyp board. The floor is a concrete slab, smooth finish, latex sealer and liquid wax finish.

Heat is radiant floor, source is a 40 gallon natural gas hot water heater.

All construction was by a professional contractor. Cost was $65,000. Not cheap, but reasonable in this area. (Upstate New York)

What would I change? Nothing.

[Brian Bischoff]

I recently had a new shop built. My shop is 22' x 26' (572 sq. ft) and attached to the back of my garage. I had the shell built (about $15K). It has concrete floor, 9'8" ceilings to match my existing garage, and vinyl siding. I have spent another $5-6K on drywall installation, bathroom fixtures (3/4 bath), heat pump (profides heat and A/C), electrical panel, wire, outlets, fixtures, insulation and epoxyshield floor. I did much of the bathroom work, much of the ductwork, all of the electrical, painting, hanging light fixtures, insulation, and concrete floor coating.

I would also have to recommend putting in a shower drain while you are at it and you might even want to install a fiberglass shower while you are at it. If I had it to do over again, I might have considered radiant floor heat. However, in this part of the country we have very inexpensive electricity and heat pumps are very efficient heat sources. I am only a hobbyist and keep the thermostat set to 57F when not working out there and I was worried that radiant floor heat would take too long to raise the temperature to 62-64F. The heat pump can do it in 20 minutes (without the stack heaters kicking in).

I would probably build it 24 x 40. It might make it easier to subdivide into a small finsihing room plus your machine and assembly area. I too hope to build a small closet for my compressor and (hopefully) future cyclone. Because my shop is attached to my garage, I installed a 6' wide double steel door between them and also a 36" door into my back yard.

As far as electrical, I installed a 30 slot subpanel running off of a 100 amp breaker in my main panel. Most of my circuits are dedicated to a single receptacle. Where I had 220V tools (compressor, TS) going, I ran 10/2 wire. Where I was placing other large tools such as planer, jointer, dust collector, bandsaw, etc. I also ran 10/2 wire to a 110V outlet. That way, when I upgrade a tool in the future, all I have to do is replace the breaker and replace the receptacle. I have heard people recommending installing 220V circuits all around the space but it will never be where you want it in the future. I believe the NEC code makes it difficult to have multiple rectacles on the same circuit. Code allows multiple 20A 110V outlets on a single circuit but for 220V circuits I believe the circuit and wiring need to be sized as if all of the tools could operate at the same time.

I also installed my T8 fixtures to two different light switches and to two different circuits. That way I do not have to turn on all of my lights all of the time and if I do happen to pop a lighting circuit all of my lights will not go out. I also installed switched outlets in the ceiling above two of my benches for task lighting.

While I had the walls open, I installed cable TV and cat 5 wire for broadband. I also installed a smoke alarm that also sounds in the house if activated. I would highly recommend some kind of floor coating. I used the Epoxyshield and have been very happy with it. Lastly, I also wish my shop was larger, but it is as large as my backyard could afford.

Good luck and have fun,

Brian Bischoff
Knoxville, TN

[Mark Singer]

Scott ,
My shop is about the size your proposing and I think it is a great size.Try to get a 12' clear height after ductwork. I have 2 very large overhead doors and I usually keep them open...it moves the air through quickly. I don't know what your going to build...but, I have made some very large pieces in my shop...

[Scott Coffelt]

Thanks for the advice all.

Mark, I build all kinds of furniture. It usually has to make through a 36" wide door. If I do 24x40, I figure I will have 1/3 of the space for assembly, and I thought about installing doctors curtain/screen type unit so it can double as a finishing area. I want to advoid too much dividing of space.

I figure I would go the in window AC route and in-wall heat.

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
I always seem to do a hand rubbed finish with oil or wax and it does not require a seperate area, The problem I have is the George Nakashima problem....if I see a piece of wood I like , I buy it... That takes space. I assemble and finish on my outfeed table. I lay a piece of carboard or masonite down so I don't have to scrap or sand the top. There is something nice also if the shop is not too big, You can get a little closer to the work and the space is not overwelming . For me its just a hobby and I really wouldn't want it bigger. Have big doors is key! A good layout is also key. A friend of mine had a lage cabinet /furniture shop and retired a few years ago. I asked him if he made a personal shop how large would you go...he said an oversized 2 car garage would work well. I will see if I can find my CAD drawing of my shop layout.
Here are some pics link:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?threadid=5423

Scott,
When I am using the drum sander I move it in fronf of the tablesaw and I feed from outside ....that is the only thing I really move. Sometimes I move the bench if I am planing a very long board, I have a shop vac that sits under the infeed table of the TS. The planer is a 15"jet and the Joiner is a Delta DJ20 8" . The drun sander is the General 24". @ bandsaws ...aJet 14" and an Agazzani 20". A Jet spindel sander, and Jet Combo sander. A Jet mortiser sits next to the Delta 17" drill press. Allthe routrers and portable power tools are below the SMS and the outfeed tableof the tablesaw. A Tormek sits up on the SMS table. If you check the pics it might help.

[Frank Pellow]

Mark, I am studying your shop layout diagram (among others) in an attempt to get ideas for the layout of the (too small) shop that I am about to build. The actual dimensions are not shown on the diagram. What are they?

[Steven Wilson]

What you need to look at is what kind of floor space you'll be left with after you put cabinets in around the walls. I would look at extending the width to 30' as in a 40'x30' shop. That should give you around 22'-24' width on the inside after cabinets (enough to plane / joint a 10' board width wise).

I would rethink the garage door. A garage door takes up a lot of ceiling space and will probably interfere with your lighting patern. A better bet would be a roll up door like they have at many U-Store It places.

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
My feelings about shop size is a bit different than some of my fellow members. I don't agree that bigger is better. I have friends in the area that are not hobbiests, but are running high volume furniture and cabinet businesses from shops not much bigger than mine. It is not what you have...it is what you do with it. Mike Gandy's shop is a little larger than mine and he produces cabinets for several homes at the same time! There is an advantage to becoming intimate with the piece you are working on. I design very large homes ...20,000sf...my god what does anybody need with all that space! If you look at Krenov's shop or Tage Frid's they are not huge...Even Sam Maloof's and they turn out terrific work and are prolific. The really big shops are great for the big manufacturers with edgebanders...panelsaws etc. They also require a lot of maintanence. The fine furniture crafstman can do wonderful things in a nice space with quality tools and most of all, skill, experience and great design. The last three things are not nearly as common as huge shops!

[Dean Baumgartner]

Scott,
I just finished off a 30x30 shop with 9' ceilings.
For the shell on a slab it was about $15000. This included an add for an 8-12 pitch roof with "spare room" trusses that give me a 14.5' x 30 foot loft space which I use for storage. I have a 36" passage door and a 16' insulated overhead. If I had to do it again I would go with an 8' overhead instead of the 16' wide. Too much lost wall space and I won't be trying to park 2 vehicles in it so really don't need the double wide door.

Other costs were 1400 for a new 200 amp electrical service and panel another 1500-2000 for electrical, insulation and wall sheething (3/8 plywood) The plywood was a killer. I started and bought about 1/3 of the materials when it was $6/sheet and by the time I bought the rest it was more like $15/sheet.

The add for the loft space was only about $1500 and well worth it in my opinion.


Dean

[Steven Wilson]

Mark,

I agree that bigger isn't better but the space needs to accommodate the type of work produced. IMHO, a hobby shop tends to serve a number of purposes from furniture building and turning, to cabinet maker (sheet goods), to lawn mower / car repair. As such the space needs to be flexible and probably a bit larger than a shop geared towards a specific purpose. If I were to concentrate on building guitars or guitar amps, chairs, turning, or other niche's then I would consider a much smaller space as being ideal. However, I do a variety of things and that needs a more flexible and somewhat larger space. Regardless of the size of shop one eventually builds I think it's a great exercise to play around with shop designs on paper. I've put together a number of scaled paper templates for a variety of tools that I have, am seriously thinking of obtaining, or dream about (wide belt sander). The paper cut outs along with spacers for infeed/outfeed requirements is quite useful in laying out a shop that is not only functional but fairly efficient for the work I do or plan to do. I have a number of shop designs on paper from a central shop with radiating appendages (i.e. a metal working wing, finishing wing, greenhouse wing, storage wing, woodworking wing, and central assembly area) that would cost a fortune to build and equip, to a small turning studio that would fit into a Manhattan apartment. The rough design that keeps coming back is a roughly 30'x40' space; big enough to handle a variety of tasks without restricting the space requirements of the machines yet small enough so that you don't tire going from one station to another, while still providing a decent amount of storage and the capability to work on odd jobs (i.e. mower repair) while in the middle of various woodworking projects. The other thing I find to be a challange is the design of the various benches. I'm gravitating to the idea of three benches; one a fairly tall but small bench for jointing (i.e. hand cut dovetails) and carving, a smallish but very heavy bench for planing and stock prep, and the ultimate large assembly table (4'x8') with integral air clamps, electric, and tool storage. Of course the assembly table would have a hydraulic or air actuated lift assembly in the middle so the table can go from 18" high to 54" high. What I'm still going over is the finishing area and what accomidations should be made to handle limited metal fabrication including a bit of welding. In anycase it's cheap to work all of this out on paper.

[Frank Pellow]

Mark, you replied in this forum after I asked my question this morning, but you did not answer my question. Waht are the dimensions of the shop that you show in your layout?

[Scott Coffelt]

I am finding much may rely on the lot I go with. I might be forced to have it attached vs. detached.

Since I have 300+ sqft now, anything in the 800-1000 sqft will seem like I struck gold. One key goal is I want enough space to have storage for wood. I was planning on one corner building a rack that is 10 ft long, 3-4 wide and 8 feet tall for stock lumber. The side would have sheet storage, and I would also have it designed for some scrap storage.

Depending on where I buy, I may have stucco the the exterior which would mean less $$$'s for building the shop. I want to stay in town as much as possible, becuase I want sewer, all utilities and cable. This will force me to take in consideration of noise. I won't be able to work with the garage doors open, so it will have to be designed for at least 10' in/out on all major machines. The shop size will most likely be either 24x40 or 24x36.

Stay tuned, maybe I will have a gloat on the lot some day. Until then, 300sgft will have to do.

[Scott Coffelt]

this will be a dedictaed shop, I have already told the wife no cars, tractors, lower mwers, bikes, etc. I will most likely set up a space where she can have her glass fusing area, but that's about it. The on;y reason I would have a garage door would be for easy access, although depending on building restrictions, I may just have a double door.

The house will have a three car garage and space for the other junk.

[Steven Wilson]

If you're looking in town you might want to consider a lot on a wee bit of a hill and then put your shop under the garage. A shop under a three car garage would be a fairly decent size (as long as the garage is reasonably deep). I have a neighbor that tore down his garage, had a foundation excavated, a basement put in (under the garage) and then a new garage built; pricey but a great way of having a big shop on a 1/3 acre city lot.

[Scott Coffelt]

I am not sure I like the idea of cars over my head. I have found a couple of lots that I might seriuosly consider. Three are in the same sub-division and are all about 2.5 to 3.1 acres, treed and a nice front to back and I can detach... they want $135k. Several that will be 1+ acre lots for $130k, can have a detached. I found a .75 acre lot, again can have up 1000sqft for $60k, but in an area where I would have the most expensive house. I have found acrage out of town that are on septic and do not have all the amenities for anywhere from $80k to $125k. Some smaller, but require attached, but then there is no yard. FYI a typcial lot .25 to .40 acre goes for about $50k and up in KC, so really these aren't bad prices for lots.

Ideal is a two 1 to 2 acre lot, treed, detached allowed and doesn't require stucco, brick or wood siding around. I would like stucco front and hardi-plank on the sides and back. We figure we really need to settle in on a house design before we can go much farther anyway.

And I must be able to bring in my own builder, becuase the one I will use will allow me to do: tile work, communications/stereo wiring, cabinets (I want Birsdeye Maple and that will cost way too much to have a cabinet shop do), and of course a big chunk of the shop build. Some that we are looking at want their own builders.

Here is a design I think I may do:

[Chris Padilla]

If you're looking in town you might want to consider a lot on a wee bit of a hill and then put your shop under the garage. A shop under a three car garage would be a fairly decent size (as long as the garage is reasonably deep). I have a neighbor that tore down his garage, had a foundation excavated, a basement put in (under the garage) and then a new garage built; pricey but a great way of having a big shop on a 1/3 acre city lot.

Steve,

Funny you should mention this. Basically, that is my dream to do for my own house. The garage would be an excellent place to begin the excavation for a nice large, deep basement. They don't build freakin' basements in California (coast)...go figure!? :mad: I know it'll be pricey and a pain but we have such a nice house in such a fantastic location that I don't think we'll be moving anytime soon. Where are you at, Steve? I wouldn't mind tappin' your neighbor's brain for some information.

[Chris Padilla]

Scott, Where's the computer with SMC running 24/7?? :D

[Frank Pellow]

Scott, that is a great looking shop design. What software did you use produce such a complete layout?

[Mark Singer]

Frank,
Sorry I got a bit carried away and forgot your question. It is 34' x 24' and it is dedicated space. I have a seperate garden /potting shed that has the garden tools etc, there is a sizeble 3 car garage 34' x25' ...that has all the auto stuff, house paint,bicycles, etc. Then there is another 11x25' storage area for, scuba equip., patio heaters, exttra chairs, sporting equip. I don't like to mix other things into the workshop...it soon becomes a multi purpose mess! My last shop was too small...it was about 14' x 26' and I was always working in the adjacent garage. There were plenty of magical moments there, however...working close on a special piece the vibe was unique and I really enjoyed it. I actually made all the doors for my present home in the old small shop (thanks to the understanding of my great neighbor I sold the home too). Some of the doors were 4'x 10' ...but I layed them up in the adjacent garage.

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
The layout looks very good! I would make one suggestion, move the tablesaw to the left allowing a full 12 ' of outfeed. A lot of hardwood is 12' long and it is important to be able to rip. I use my outfeed table for assembly ...it is a full 4x8' ...if your cutting sheet goods , they are fully supported. You can also get lumber storage above the CMS...most of mine is there. My biggest problem is lumber storage...I have some in the garage...it is a common problem in a lot of shops...we all love wood I guess..

[Scott Coffelt]

Scott, Where's the computer with SMC running 24/7?? :D

Its on the drafting/desk. It's that cream colored thing. Gotsa have a PC you know.

[Scott Coffelt]

Scott,
The layout looks very good! I would make one suggestion, move the tablesaw to the left allowing a full 12 ' of outfeed. A lot of hardwood is 12' long and it is important to be able to rip. I use my outfeed table for assembly ...it is a full 4x8' ...if your cutting sheet goods , they are fully supported. You can also get lumber storage above the CMS...most of mine is there. My biggest problem is lumber storage...I have some in the garage...it is a common problem in a lot of shops...we all love wood I guess..


Its hard to tell by this drawing because there is no grids, but there is actually 16' to the back wall from center of TS and 20' into center of the TS. I would probably expand the size of the outfeed to 4'x8', its currently based on the current outfeed table I have. I figure if the ceilings are 9'-10', you can pretty much have lumber stored everywhere. I figure the lumber rack will be able to hold pretty much all I need for quite some time, being that it is 4' wide by 8' tall and 10' long, and of course more would be able to be stored on top of that. I figure that is about 3,840 board feet minus bracing for the levels and stickering, so even at that lets say I could probably hold about 3,000 bdft in the rack. Don't think I'll be buying that much early on anyways. Thanks for the suggestions.

Obviously from this picture I have not laid out the DC ducting runs yet, but the goal was to keep dust collection limited to about have the total area of the shop.

Frank, the software is Visio 2000. I have either built of pilfered the images of the tools. Jack Diemer got me started on it and I really like it for laying rooms. Its two dimensional, but it has all kinds of standard images.

[Mark Singer]

Scott,
The duct work will lower your height. I started with 12' and it works well.
Mark