Building a new shop! need some advice

[Charlie T. Bear]

Hi all, I am building a new shop, its my first shop actually. I have been in the construction business for 25 yrs. Now semi-retired. I have always dreamed of the perfect wood shop and now its finally becoming a reality. I am a journeyman carpenter, however, I know enough that I dont know much about cabinet making which is what I want to do. So I have been reading and learning alot on this site. I hope you folks can help me out as I endeavor into woodworking.

The shop is 40 x 28 with 10 ft ceilings I have partioned off a 14 x 16 finish room and a 5 x 5 bathroom (Not as young as I used to be!)

I want to install air lines in the walls. The compressor sits in the basement as well as the future central vac.

What would you recommend for the piping of the airlines? Will CPVC work?

[Don Bullock]

Charlie, welcome and congratulations on your shop. Something like that is still a dream for me. I wish I could answer your question,but I'm sure someone here will get back to you with some facts.

[Rob Wright]

Charlie -

Welcome to the 'creek.

Do not use PVC - there are numerous threads on this if you search. It can become shrapnel if it breaks. When it breaks it is a catastrophic failure and splinters easily. Most people here recommend black iron pipe or copper tubing with sweatted joints. Good luck with the build - Rob

[Bill Roland]

There is a plastic air pipe available. We used it here @ work. Follow this link:
http://www.e-pipeconnection.com/cgi-bin/fccgi.exe?w3exec=ITSPVCOnline&PROGRAM=partsmain&SUBMIT=SHOWGROUP&group_id=1*G&SPD=

[Al Willits]

Charlie, any friends in the piping trades?
I did mine in 3/4" pipe and if I had to do over, I'd use pipe again.

Price of copper has gone so high now that its become to costly, and with pipe you won't ever have to worry about running a nail in it or hitting it with something sharp or heavy.
Plus you can easily add drip tee's before each outlet and if you attach the pipe well enough, you can hang stuff on it..:)

Al

[Jim Becker]

Welcome to the 'Creek, Charlie!

Air lines are normally done with either black pipe or copper. Most plastic is not acceptable for this purpose...there have been innumerable threads on that topic here and everywhere else for many years. There are specialized plastic products available, but they might not be practical for a home-shop situation...black pipe and copper are easy to source and easy to install. My system is type-L copper.

[Jim Andrew]

Charlie, a new shop with a basement under sounds really cool. I have a question for you though, wondering about the joists under heavy equipment? I have my TS, jointer, and planer lined up, so I would have a serious load on that area if it had a wood flooring system. Guess if you have it all laid out before you started building, you could just double up on the floor joists. Or triple, maybe. Jim

[Jim Becker]

Jim, the loading would certainly need to be taken into consideration, but most of the heaviest tools are not concentrating all that weight in one spot. Normal spans and spacing with a proper sub-floor and floor can take a LOT of weight!

[Chase Gregory]

Charlie, a new shop with a basement under sounds really cool. I have a question for you though, wondering about the joists under heavy equipment? I have my TS, jointer, and planer lined up, so I would have a serious load on that area if it had a wood flooring system. Guess if you have it all laid out before you started building, you could just double up on the floor joists. Or triple, maybe. Jim

There is most likely a beam line breaking up that 28' into at least two bays, equal or not. The floor loading can easily be designed to take pretty much whatever the equipment can put on it as long as you don't transfer loads to mid-span later that were put over a beam line during design.

If you have the room for TJI's or open web joists you can really increase the capacity of the second floor system.

Give a layout to a TJI company and tell them the dead and live loading you want and they'll spec the joists. You can probably constrain them to a max depth of joist and they'll adjust the joist construction and spacing to accomodate you.

Chaser

[Joe Chritz]

I have been very happy with my copper lines but with the current cost of copper, I would now go with Black iron. I don't know if I would do it in the wall again (just for easy of change) but I have three outlets from the wall plus one in another room at the compressor.

It is simple to tie into the outlet and have unlimited (nearly) flexibility.

Add extra lines now while it is easy, remember to put in drops and get a decent water filter. Also either drain your tank often or put an auto-drain on. Plus the more lines the bigger your tank effectively is.

I replace my drain with a galvanized pipe and ball valve so it is easy to drain. I still need to make a hose or trap since it sprays water pretty good.

Joe

[Rob Will]

I would use 1/2" plywood on the walls and paint it with gloss latex house paint. Caulk the joints and nail holes.

For the air lines, I would use 1/2" black iron pipe. Screw it to the surface of the wall with conduit clamps and paint it to match.

You really don't need that many air drops but you will use the heck out of two air hose reels - one near the outside door, the other near your assembly area. (plus one in the finishing room)

I have had various types of air line piping. Personally, I would not put air pipes inside any wall. There will eventually be a small leak or you will want to add something. In fact, I would use a few extra 1/2" tees with one side capped off for future expansion.

Do not use PVC or CPVC. (I have seen problems).

When planning your shop, try to save some of the vertical wall space for storage. Often times, machines work well in groups toward the center of the room rather than up against a wall. Wall space is a terrible thing to waste.

Plan for plenty of misc storage, lumber storage, 4x8 sheet goods etc. Plan the storage first then modify it to accomodate your machine tools. Use mobile bases if need be.

Put a couple of electric outlets in the floor and possibly DC ports. One set is dedicated to the table saw.

I would use a forced air furnace of some sort so that the filters double as an air cleaner. (I have a pre-filter box with cheap throw away filters - it works very well. If you require heat and are considering gas, use a sealed combustion unit (this also works well).

If I had it to do all over again, I would make a rough 1/12 scale model of the shop and cut some blocks of wood on the bandsaw to model some of the main machine tools, workbenches, and storage cabinets. Nothing really detailed or fancy.......just a tool to see how everything will fit.

Good move on the finishing room! Plan for a series of good furnace filters (air inlet) up high on the wall and your exhaust fan down low. (Downdraft...:D.....Take it from an old car painter). You want the air velocity through your filters to be very slow so use several. In order to get the exhaust fan to "pull" off of the floor you might enclose it under a wide plywood box-style hood held about 6" off of the floor. You can also use the top of the hood as a mixing station.

Sorry for the rambling......

Rob

[Ted Jay]

I would use 1/2" plywood on the walls and paint it with gloss latex house paint. Caulk the joints and nail holes.

For the air lines, I would use 1/2" black iron pipe. Screw it to the surface of the wall with conduit clamps and paint it to match.

You really don't need that many air drops but you will use the heck out of two air hose reels - one near the outside door, the other near your assembly area. (plus one in the finishing room)

I have had various types of air line piping. Personally, I would not put air pipes inside any wall. There will eventually be a small leak or you will want to add something. In fact, I would use a few extra 1/2" tees with one side capped off for future expansion.

Do not use PVC or CPVC. (I have seen problems).

(snip)

Rob

There is a major difference between PVC and CPVC, in pressure and temperature ratings....

I would use the CPVC pipe (gray color), I see no problem as long as you understand that you should use CPVC Pressure rated pipe. You also need to make sure it is secure at the point of hose line hook-up as you would with any line.

I would not use anything larger than 1/2" sch80. The larger the pipe the less pressure it will handle. !/2" sch80 is rated at 850 psi at around 75*F. The higher the temp the lower the pressure rating, but it's temp limit is 200*F. At 180*F the pressure rating drops down to 210 psi.

What ever you do, do not use PVC which is white in color.

Ted

PS: I know that this has been beat to death on other forums. I use a 75' hose reel right next to my compressor, so I don't need to run an air line around the shop.

[Rob Will]

There is a major difference between PVC and CPVC, in pressure and temperature ratings....

I would use the CPVC pipe (gray color), I see no problem as long as you understand that you should use CPVC Pressure rated pipe. You also need to make sure it is secure at the point of hose line hook-up as you would with any line.

I would not use anything larger than 1/2" sch80. The larger the pipe the less pressure it will handle. !/2" sch80 is rated at 850 psi at around 75*F. The higher the temp the lower the pressure rating, but it's temp limit is 200*F. At 180*F the pressure rating drops down to 210 psi.

What ever you do, do not use PVC which is white in color.

Ted

I see your point Ted, in fact, my old shop currently has SCH 80 pvc up in the rafters with black iron down where imact damage can occur. I have seen 3 SCH 80 pvc failures but admittedly most were expansion / contraction problems (pulling joints apart etc.) I just don't think I would do it again so my new shop will be steel or copper. If I were a commercial entity, OSHA would give me a reaming over the PVC air lines.

Rob

[Ted Jay]

I see your point Ted, in fact, my old shop currently has SCH 80 pvc up in the rafters with black iron down where imact damage can occur. I have seen 3 SCH 80 pvc failures but admittedly most were expansion / contraction problems (pulling joints apart etc.) I just don't think I would do it again so my new shop will be steel or copper. If I were a commercial entity, OSHA would give me a reaming over the PVC air lines.

Rob

Acutally Rob if someone were to use 3/8" sch80 the pressure rating is 920 psi. For 1/4" it hits at 1300 psi.

I admit it's primary use is for hot and cold fluids but in a pinch you could run it above the rafters and have ceiling hose reels with 3/8" hose drops to make it easier, and you'll probably only need one drop, two at the most. Now for that 200' shop maybe three or four.

I'm not running a body shop and have two or three guys working for me. Anybody know's in a situation like that the air lines are going to be abused to the max and anything can happen. I'm just one guy, one compressor, one air hose, and one nail gun at a time..... (insert super hero music here...man lost that cape again)......:D

If anyone was "afraid" that it would blow apart on them... just wrap it with pipe insulation and be done with it.

Later,
Ted

[Al Willits]

Well, whatever you do, make it changeable, I'm betting it'll take a bit to find that "perfect" set up..:D

Either way, good luck.

Al

[Charlie T. Bear]

Wow Thanks Guys! I did search for those discussions on air lines but I guess I need to improve on my searching skills, Kinda new to forums, (sorry) However you folks are fantastic! I really appreciate all those responses.

As to the load placement on the floors that was already factored in prior to construction. I have a very sturdy floor.

I am putting OSB on the walls and I am leaving the ceiling open. I built a 2 bed room apartment above the shop so having the 2nd floor joist open allows be to add and electric or anything else to either floor at any time.

Air lines, I was pretty much set on Iron pipe anyway, I was worried about breaking at the joints. Copper is nuts now in todays market. I really like copper but gave in to CPVC for water supply lines on this job because of price. I am starting a new house next spring 09 and I will be switching to Pex.

I can see already that I wont be doing much without consulting here first. You folks are supper knowledgeable! Thanks!

[Rob Will]

I am putting OSB on the walls and I am leaving the ceiling open.

My best friend has been a contractor for 40 years. He just built a beautiful 30 x 40. We used OSB on his walls but it does not look as good as my plywood. If we use OSB again, we will sand off the splinters before painting, caulk the joints and use a lot of paint to seal up more of the voids. Come to think of it, I lightly sanded my plywood and used a leaf blower on it before painting. (It got a lot of those fuzzy things off). Again, my method of using a primer + heavy bodied gloss latex house paint worked well. It seems like the heavy paint did a better job on filling small voids. I'm sure that it would have also helped on the OSB. My friend used an interior paint but it did not work as well.

A lot of members here have a corrugated white metal ceiling put up with screws that they are very happy with. Me included.


Good luck!

Rob

[Charlie T. Bear]

My best friend has been a contractor for 40 years. He just built a beautiful 30 x 40. We used OSB on his walls but it does not look as good as my plywood. If we use OSB again, we will sand off the splinters before painting, caulk the joints and use a lot of paint to seal up more of the voids. Come to think of it, I lightly sanded my plywood and used a leaf blower on it before painting. (It got a lot of those fuzzy things off). Again, my method of using a primer + heavy bodied gloss latex house paint worked well. It seems like the heavy paint did a better job on filling small voids. I'm sure that it would have also helped on the OSB. My friend used an interior paint but it did not work as well.

A lot of members here have a corrugated white metal ceiling put up with screws that they are very happy with. Me included.


Good luck!

Rob

Thanks Rob, I dont want to paint it at this point. I like the bare wood look, I hung it all smooth side out, If I ever do paint it I know it looks ugly unless you really gob on the paint.

[Chris Padilla]

I know it is boring as all get out but paint everything a nice plain old white. It reflects light the best and lets face it, as you get older you need more light! I recommend the T8 fluourescents all around: no/low noise, and fire up quickly even in sub-zero temps.

A plumber I used several years back used aluminum pipe to run some gas line for me. Now I know NG isn't at the pressures that air line can/might get to but I think aluminum pipe could be used as well as black or galvinized pipe for air lines.

I just have a long hose reel hooked up to my compressor, which I have mounted 10' off the ground nested up in my half-vaulted garage ceiling. Check it out:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=7915

[Eric Haycraft]

Wow Thanks Guys! I did search for those discussions on air lines but I guess I need to improve on my searching skills, Kinda new to forums, (sorry) However you folks are fantastic! I really appreciate all those responses.

As to the load placement on the floors that was already factored in prior to construction. I have a very sturdy floor.

I am putting OSB on the walls and I am leaving the ceiling open. I built a 2 bed room apartment above the shop so having the 2nd floor joist open allows be to add and electric or anything else to either floor at any time.

Air lines, I was pretty much set on Iron pipe anyway, I was worried about breaking at the joints. Copper is nuts now in todays market. I really like copper but gave in to CPVC for water supply lines on this job because of price. I am starting a new house next spring 09 and I will be switching to Pex.

I can see already that I wont be doing much without consulting here first. You folks are supper knowledgeable! Thanks!

Speaking of pex, has anyone done air lines with it? I have a ton of it laying around for a future project and would definitely have enough extra to do shop air lines.

[Jim Becker]

Speaking of pex, has anyone done air lines with it? I have a ton of it laying around for a future project and would definitely have enough extra to do shop air lines.

This has been discussed recently. There is a flexible PEX-like product available for air lines, but PEX, itself, is not rated for compressed gases.

[Mark Bellonby]

My shop is about 4 years old, has a crawl space, and 7 air outlets. The pipes are concealed in the walls, and the tank is in a central storage room. There is a drain in the crawl space.

The number of outlets is key. My opinion is the more the better. There is one outside on an outside concrete slab, which fills tractor and car tires, etc. Short lines are less of a hassle than long ones.

I am really pleased with my setup. The only joints within walls which could leak are "els" right behind each port in the room, and they haven't leaked. I don't like pipes and central vac hoses exposed, as they all get in the way and get dusty.

Positive drainage is a good idea.

Good luck.

[Roy Hill]

Haven't heard anyone mention galvanized piping here, is there a reason?

Roy

[Richard Madison]

Is OSB cheaper than dry wall (gypsum board) these days? Prefer dry wall for fire resistance, easy to paint smooth surface. Hang heavy stuff at stud locations if needed.

Agree with Chris. Paint everything bright white. Every bit of light helps.

Prefer open shelves to cabinets, shelf rails screwed through drywall to the studs. Granted that everything gets dust-covered, but same deal as "bright white". If you can see it, you can find it. If you can't see it (cause it is in a cabinet), you gotta remember where it is. No problem now? Wait a few years.

Just some thoughts.

[Charlie T. Bear]

I would mess up drywall I am a bull in a china cabinet at times!:o

[Richard Madison]

Yeah, my previous shop did have a few "dents" in the drywall. But it was only the shop. I am very careful in the house.

[Carl Fox]

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/46100-46199/46104.gif

nuff said

[Tim Wagner]

Personally I would run copper. black pipe is good too, but may corrode on the inside walls of the pipe.

[Tom Mock]

Wow. Quite a few differant views on this subject. All good comments. I can only speak on my experience. I used to be partner in a custom machine shop. We used 1 1/4 pvc for the main lines and then reduced to 1/2' for all the drops to the machines. We had air hoses at each machine and four cnc machines that all took air to operate tool changers. We had that system in place for 9 years (we then sold our business) and as far as I know, it is still working today. (total about 15 years.) We never had a problem with the pvc pipe failing. We can always quote safety specs and should absolutely consider those when making decisions, but, we also should never take guard off our table saws. Good luck and be safe.

[Steven Beam]

Charlie,

Post some pics when you have a chance. So that those of us who are still planning our shops can steal your thoughts and ideas :D