Philosophical question gentleman...and ladies

[Fred Voorhees]

Had a small group of freinds over last night to enjoy the final day of 2007 and it got around to my woodworking and one or two people who had never seen either the stuff that I have built, nor my shop, were sort of blown away by things. Not that I'm saying that I am Norm or David Marks...quite the contrary, my point is that the regular Joe just doesn't understand. Let me explain and....on to the question.

I have always gone by the thought that I am not that super talented in woodworking. Yes, I can hold my own and I have, in my opinion, turned out some nice stuff, but to the untrained eye, the stuff is amazing. Back to my thoughts on the subject. I have said that it is all in having the right equipment and tools. If a person had the tools and the equipment to do the work, with just a little knowledge and the will to learn, in a short time, they too could be turning out some decent looking stuff.

One friend last night refused to believe that theory. He told me that it was a boatload of talent that allowed me to turn this kind of stuff out. Do you guys and gals really think that is the case? I'm not putting any of us down. Of course, there are some of us that are decades better than others, but we all have our levels of competence. But....is it more having the right tools and equipment - or is it actually some better skills at the craft that makes the difference?

I have always told people that if they wanted to spend some time with me in the shop, I could show them just how easy it is to get up to speed in woodworking if they had the right stuff to do it and were willing to learn. What are your thoughts?

[Chuck Lenz]

Good tools can make you more efficient with the knowledge you have from experience, period.

[Rob Watanabe]

I think it takes more than having the right tools. You also have to have good technique and some skill to handle that tool. Give me a drill and a piece of wood and I could drill a hole through it. If I were given a jack hammer to make a hole in concrete, I would have a hard time. Experience and an incredible amount of patience and to be very meticulous with attention to detail is also an asset in woodworking. Not all of us have that.

[Jesse Cloud]

Interesting question. I'm taking classes in Fine Woodworking at the local community college and from my viewpoint, it seems like some people have talent or aptitude - whatever you call it - and can make anything just about perfect the first time they try, and not with fancy tools.

On the other hand, there are those like me who hardly ever get it right on the first try, but keep on trying and eventually produce something worth while.

In my opinion, crappy tools are really hard to use. But once you get a decent tool, for most of us its more a matter of building the skills than getting better tools...

[Dick Bringhurst]

I agree with Chuck, but would add it pays to have a sense of adventure and a willingness to try new things. Dick B.

[Brian Kent]

What I mean by that header is that most people if they set their minds to a task and have decent teaching and tools, can do something beautiful.

In any field, there are some really talented people. What I mean by "talent" is that hard work and practice pay off. A talented musician still has to practice each day for years. If they are pretty good musicians, it means the hard work paid off. I tried to sing in choirs for awhile, but it is a lot more merciful for everyone if I just stick with drums. Almost no-one in any field is talented enough to have things work intuitively before the hard work.

So I think most of your friends could do great work with some excitement, coaching, access to decent tools, and practice. A few better just stick to buying your good work:D.

[Tom Quatsoe]

Fred - I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence. Like most things in life, it is all about desire to learn and a time investment to get into the details. Most of what we do can be broken down into some simple steps. Innovative and artistic design probably need an inate talent, but that is not a prerequist to turn out fantastic wood projects.

On the other hand, we should be telling our significant others that it is all about the tools in order to support the habbit.

[M. A. Espinoza]

I've always thought the corollary to this is musicianship.

One needs aptitude to play an instrument. Anyone can do it to varying degrees with enough practice.

However it takes talent and dedication to be a virtuoso. And it takes something special to create something superior. Coltrane, Hendrix, Beethoven, whatever example works for you.

But you could probably use cooking just as easily. Fry-cook vs. chef.

So I my answer is, no, I don't think it takes any special talent to use woodworking tools and follow directions. Just some aptitude.

Talent to me is something that involves superior physical or creative skills; or both.

Kind of like singing. Anyone can; but not everyone has talent.

[Rick Gifford]

I think with the right tools you certainly better your chances to produce a nice product.

I would think the most experience woodworker would have issues using the worse tools.

Some folks can make real art with the minimum of tools. Others can make good stuff only if they have a special tool for every cut and angle.

It makes me think of the saying a specialist on a show said about cancer prevention. 15% of the population will get cancer no matter what they do in their lives. 15% will not get cancer no matter what they do in their lives. Its the middle 70% that will be affected by their decisions.

I think its probably true in most aspects of life. Their are those who can do great things with very little, and those who cant do squat with everything available. Others rely on a balance.

My guess is you have talent. You better your work by using good tools. Therefore a balance. Probably true for most folks. Some may need better/more tools to get that balance.

People can debate the extremes - the artist vs the klutz.

I know people who cant hit a nail on its head to save their life. Doesn't matter how good a hammer you give them.

[John Zee]

Good tools are a plus, but understanding the machanics of a project is something else. All the parts needed and the cuts required to put them all together. That takes time, weather schoolling or the school of hard kcocks. Reading ( or just looking at the pictures :D) the pages of FWW or FHB just takes time and for whatever reson, this technique or that style sticks in your head and when the time comes you have something to make it work out.

So, talent is big. I've been on the road doing trade shows I & D and those guys are magicians if I've ever seen. The show will go on and the booth built but something will always break. Fixing it however, sometimes is ingenious.

[Mike Cutler]

Fred.

It sounds as of you were paid an enormous compliment. You should be proud.
I think you may be underestimating the "average Joe". People can "see" quality. It's an intangible. If you were to put a piece of furniture,say a rocking chair, off of the IKEA showroom and set it next to a chair by Sam Maloof. People will see it, and know the difference. So yes. I do believe it takes a level of talent to produce fine woodworking.
The machines allow us to realize an idea. It takes talent to make it all happen.

Be proud of your work.

[Thomas Knighton]

Tools may make the man, but ability makes the craftsman. Most people are their own harshest critics. They know every flaw in their work, and know that it's far from perfection. However, the masses see the bigger picture, and see a beautiful piece of furniture.

I'm willing to bet that, while someone was complimenting some of the masters of years gone by, that master was thinking "yeah, it looks good to you, but I really screwed up that dovetail".

Tom

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think it's a combination of natural aptitude, experience, education and tools. Good tools can make the same outcome easier but won't determine the outcome IMHO.....

A person with less aptitude can succeed but maybe not to the same level as someone with a natural ability that has experience and education. The less apt person is more likely going to take more time to do something as someone with more aptitude.

Experience is ,infact, part of the education process.

You look at some of the masterpieces of furniture that were done totally in the neander methods of yesteryear. Were the tools as good as some we have today? Depends on your point of view. From the neander point of view "As good as they get".....from the purest power tool users view... "No".

It takes a combination of aptitude, education and tools....

[Craig Earls]

There are two aspects here. The first is the technical aspect of milling the wood and finishing it. That is a skill which can be learned, and most people could achieve a very high level of proficiency in time. The second is the 'vision' that determines WHAT to execute using the technical skills. I think the vision is far harder to get. Many people gave up their imagination when they let fourth grade, it isn't very easy to regain...

[Ron Bontz]

I have to agree with Ken F. I believe it takes a lot of things including the patience and desire to want to learn. What I have learned has been predominantly from books, watching others, and trial and error. I'm great at making scraps and saw dust. I could never afford those wood working schools, but applaud any one who is able to do so. I have learned a great deal about furniture joinery by refinishing those old antiques. With regard to the newest and greatest tools... The craftsman of the past did not have access to them so they had to refine their abilities with what they did have. "making due". Some people are more handy than others. The modern day tools simply speed things up quite a bit. My 2 cents anyway.

[Hank Knight]

Fred,

I think it takes all three components: an aptitude for woodworking, some decent tools and an interest or willingness to learn. I'm not all that sure about the tools. I've seen some amazing things made by people with the most rudimentary tools. But in our culture where our concept of "essentials" is different from the Third World's concept, I think some basic, decent tools are probably essential.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think aptitude plays an essential part. Many, perhaps most, people have some aptitude for mechanical endeavors like woodworking. But some don't. I have watched guys with a very strong desire to learn basic woodworking try and try, only to fail over and over again. It's sad and frustrating to watch. I've come to the conclusion over the years that some people just don't have the aptitude for it.

My own efforts to learn to play the guitar have convinced me that aptitude is an essential element most endeavors. I've been a guitar hack since I was in high school - almost 50 years. I've owned some fine instruments and I've worked at it for a long time, but I'm not musical. I can master some of the mechanical elements like finger picking and chord formation, but when it comes to making music, I'm a total klutz - I just don't have a musical aptitude; my brain's not wired that way. I think some people just aren't wired for woodworking.

Interest and a desire to learn are important and will prove to most people that they too can be a "woodworker." But for that small few who don't have the aptitude for it, the desire to learn the craft is an avenue to frustration.

I also believe there are varing degrees of aptitude. Above I classified woodworking as a mechanical endeavor. I believe a large part of woodworking is mechanical in nature and people with a good mechanical aptitude can become reasonably good craftsmen. But I also believe there is an artistic component in woodworking that separates the basic craftsmen (I put myself in this category) from the truly talented woodworker. I don't think I have the artistic aptitude to attain the accomplishments of a Sam Maloof or a George Nakashima - or many lesser known artists, some of whom post regualrly on this board. So there are varying degrees of aptitude and accomplishment. To those who know nothing of the craft, basic stuff looks like magic. For the more astute and acccomplished of us, there will always be someone better and more accomplished, whose work we admire, to give us something to strive for. That's what makes woodworking such a great interest: you never feel like you've mastered it.

My $.02

Hank

[chris yount]

Maybe I am going the wrong way with this ,but my dad is a brick mason.The tools he uses are as basic as it gets a trowell , a brick hammer and some string yet he makes incredibly beautiful things with these.Part of this is experience but mostly it is his ability visualize the possibilities for a customer and come up with a creative and unique solution for each situation.That is talent in my view ,to be able to work without plans or in many cases without a reference of any type and comeup with something unique, functional and apealing.He recently was given a gas grill and a location and told by his customer to build an outdoor kitchen.He turned this into a functional piece of art.Many people can brick a house or build steps but not many people can do this type of work.
Basic skills can be taught but some people have a gift or talent that can't be taught no matter what tools they are given.

[Paul Girouard]

That imagination part is a big part. Part of designing AND part of figuring out jigs , options , ways of doing "different" things.

The part about "anyone can do it" MAYBE. But my experience as a custom cabinet shop foremen , in a shop that would do just about anything folks asked for , furniture repair , build a weird piece of what ever molding , boat parts , dash board fixtures for instruments , weather station holders , to regular/ custom kitchen cabinets , etc .

Some guys NEVER get it , they can't even sand boards to a proper level of expectation without CONSTANT supervision. Now maybe those guys where only "doing it for a job" maybe that makes difference . Their attitude wasn't right , they wanted the money that came out of the job so "Good enought is close enought" / "I'll never see it from my house " /"Close enought for Govt. work" all play into that part of it. :(

I do know that guys I've worked with , guys I've tried to trained, few measure up to what I'd call "work on thier own" cabinetmakers / woodworkers . Some make it, some don't , what the "X" factor is , IMO , is attitude about caring about the work , sure they worked for the money but the better / good ones that was a by product of THAT good work.

And maybe they'd be good at what ever they do as they'd apply thier selfs to the work.

[Lee Koepke]

chris, you are correct. there is a big difference between a brick layer and a MASON ... i think the same can be said for woodworkers.

I can create alot of things in my head and on paper, but havent had enough experience yet to phycially construct them. I am improving my 'skills'. With time, i think i can do OK quality work, but the true artists of any trade are unique and special tradesmen.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chris....I agree....this ability to envision.....artistry....ingenuity.....

I have a natural aptitude for things mechanical....electronic.....I can visualize in 3-D....and often have to think in those terms in my work....


What blows me away is the ability of someone like Creeker Mark Singer...or Maloof......or David Marks........or your Dad who have the ability visualize new designs in their minds....and have the mechanical training/education/experience and the ability to apply the mechanics to the vision they have in their heads. This I suspect is both a combination of education/experience and natural aptitude. I can copy someone else's design and if I take the time ...do a good job at it.....but to me imagining a new design is painful, often ineffective, and always inefficient for me......Not a natural talent I have a lot of aptitude for.....

[Danny Thompson]

I believe talent can be a big factor in woodworking. Not everyone has the patience, attention to detail, ability to learn to do quality work. These are all required to stay on a project through to completion and have it come out looking decent.

On top of that, an eye for design, good judgement, creativity, and adventurous spirit all make the difference between decent work and beautiful work.

A third level of talent comes in when someone is able to apply knowledge from some other trade or activity (say metalworking, chemistry, sculpture, mountain climbing, or gymnastics) to do something completely new with woodworking. These are the true geniuses.

None of these are any good without some practical woodworking experience.

[John Bush]

I have found that as I learn new techniques and skills and experiment with them the individualist and personal expression grows as well. A significant source for me is all you experts out there that I shamelessly steal ideas from. The timeless addage of "You don't see what you don't know" holds true for WWing as well as well as most other aspects of life.

With regard to tools and equipment, we all know that some incredible stuff has been made with the most rudimentary tools. I understand that the caveman had developed a wonderful line of Mission style furniture after milling the Mastadon femur with just a rock. No Shelix needed by him. Unfortunately all was lost when that big meteor hit, but I don't believe it is just urban legend!! He must have started the first Neaderthal forum in his spare time!!

I think the appropriate equipment helps in efficiency, but for me it is largely emotional as the excitement of something new and shiny that makes a lot more noise and dust drives me into a creative frenzy. Either that or my wife is so PO'd that I am afraid to go back in the house. As an example, I remodeled my office(Dental) and my productivity almost doubled. My skillset hadn't changed and I didn't increase the number of operatories but there was an air of excitement shared by me and my entire staff that carried us to a new, more enjoyable and productive level. Maybe the fact that I finally got indoor plumbing and electricity should share the glory, but it had to be mostly an internal, emotional respose.

Anyway, I am usually wrong, but this time I hit this nail right on the head, using my brand new chrome plated, computer balanced, hundred year old Hickory handled "Tim the Toolman Special Edition" claw hammer.

Have A Happy and cheerful New Year. JCB.

[Fred Voorhees]

I believe talent can be a big factor in woodworking. Not everyone has the patience, attention to detail, ability to learn to do quality work. These are all required to stay on a project through to completion and have it come out looking decent.

On top of that, an eye for design, good judgement, creativity, and adventurous spirit all make the difference between decent work and beautiful work.

A third level of talent comes in when someone is able to apply knowledge from some other trade or activity (say metalworking, chemistry, sculpture, mountain climbing, or gymnastics) to do something completely new with woodworking. These are the true geniuses.

None of these are any good without some practical woodworking experience.

I really have to thank you guys for chiming in. I have a bit more to think about now that I have been given a gammut of reasons to reflect upon. I have never been known for having a lot of patience, but in my woodworking, I am willing to endure it towards the final outcome. Patience is something that not everyone has and I have heard patience being mentioned when I show someone my work. Attention to detail is another thing that some have and some don't.

I know what my problem is and I have always had it. I have never really been able to take a compliment very well. I need to work on that. I would love to hear from more guys and their opinions on this subjet. Personally, I have always been bothered by people noting my work and never being able to accept it.

[Jim Becker]

Fred, you do have a "boatload of talent", IMHO...but more importantly, you actually use it. You pick out a project, think it through and execute on it. The end results are always great.

[Jim O'Dell]

Chris hit on a point that has been in my mind while reading all the responses here. Many people can learn to build something if they want to. Just like learning to bake a cake from a recipe. The ones that can visualize something, then build it, when it's never been built before, is someone with the ability to think in the abstract. These are the true visionarys, the artists, the gifted.
Along with this, some have abilities that others don't have. Finer motor skills, an eye for detail. I could make the same shelf out of the same wood on the same tools as many here, but I might have sloppier joints because of lack of fine motor skills, or just lack of experience. I might get too much glue in a joint that oozes out, and in the end, leaves a mark that shows when finishing the piece. But I could still make the shelf. Good implementation takes experience. Maybe I could eventually make my shelf look just as good, but take me 4 or 5 tries to get it that way. That's learning and it takes time. As long as we know that when we start, we can eventually achieve the abilities through experience to build something just as good as the next person. If we have the desire to do so. Most people that say this is impossible to do, just don't have the desire to learn this. That's ok, they can probably do something that we feel we could never learn for the same reason, it's just not interesting enough to us to put in the effort, and stay with it long enough to learn and develop the skills needed.
Me? I'm not an artistic person. That side of my brain just did not develop. I don't visualize in the abstract, but more in the concrete. I'm not a good chess player, so therefore I'm not able to see 50 moves ahead most of the time. This fouls me up in building things at times. I get ahead of myself, then remember after I've gotten past the point that something should have been done, and now it has to come back apart to redo it. :o So I'm not likely going to be the one who designs something to build that is different. BUT, I just may be able to reproduce someone else's idea, given the time and desire are there to learn the skills. And maybe, just maybe, be able to change something ever so slightly to make it work better for me.

Great thread, Fred. very thought provoking on this first day of the New Year! Jim.

[M. A. Espinoza]

My own efforts to learn to play the guitar have convinced me that aptitude is an essential element most endeavors. I've been a guitar hack since I was in high school - almost 50 years. I've owned some fine instruments and I've worked at it for a long time, but I'm not musical. I can master some of the mechanical elements like finger picking and chord formation, but when it comes to making music, I'm a total klutz - I just don't have a musical aptitude; my brain's not wired that way. I think some people just aren't wired for woodworking.


Hank

I've had a similar experience and with the same instrument. I can "play" a guitar. That is to say I can make noise with it and can fake it OK for a while.

But I'm no musician by any stretch. However I do still like "playing" with the guitar.

Another poster who was once a shop foreman also kind of hit on what I have seen in pro shops. Lots can turn out product but it doesn't make them talented necessarily. But we pretty much know who in the shop is talented.

However I guess there is something to be said for context. A talented builder in a production shop isn't necessarily the same thing at a craft show or a gallery.

[Victor Stearns]

Happy New Year
I beleive that we are given the gift of fine craftsmanship. How we use this gift is up to us. Some of us use our gifts and many others attempt to become gifted. This is not to say that someone can study and not become a craftsman. When we are gifted, we use our tools, either the really nice one's or the not-so-nice tools, as an extension of ourselves. It is not the tools that make the craftsman, but the ability to extend ourselves.
While we can point out every error, mistake, or misfortune on any of our projects, not many of our friends are able to spot the mis-spaced dovetail, or the ever-so-small scratch in the hand-rubbed finish.
As I tell my children, whenever you are paided a compliment, just smile and say Thank You.
Fred, this is a most thought provoking post and Thank You for the idea!
Victor

[Wayne Watling]

Seems to be two questions here:

1) Can the non-woodworker appreciate fine woodworking.

In my experience some can more than others but not in the same sense that a fine craftsman can.

2) Will the quality of tool dictate the quality of the end product

In the beginning it may help a lot but as the woodworkers skill level increases it becomes a little less important but its still helps to have fine tools.

My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.

Best,
Wayne

[Ken Shoemaker]

Please look at my signature line and let me very briefly explain it.

I wanted to fly airplanes and went to the local airport where I met a flight instructor named Chuck. We jumped into a VERY capable airplane and I couldn't make it do a thing I wanted. With training and experience I went on to get my pilot license and several rating.

In short, I believe it is the desire to master a task, and the experience that comes with the desire, that will make a master woodworker more than any tool. As ones skills increase then does the need for good tools for acuracy and efficency.

Just .02... Ken

[scott spencer]

You've probably gained more skill and knowledge along the way than you realize, and let's face it, not everyone can currently accomplish what you do. Desire is the most important tool IMO, but you've probably also gained some skill at selecting the correct tool for the task too...

With that said....it's definitely harder to impress another woodworker than the average layperson. Enjoy the accolades while you can, and tell them you'll be consulting for Norm this winter! :D

[Billy Chambless]

In short, I believe it is the desire to master a task, and the experience that comes with the desire, that will make a master woodworker more than any tool. As ones skills increase then does the need for good tools for acuracy and efficency.


Well said.

[Gary Keedwell]

I think certain people drift into woodworking for a reason. Deep in their minds they have seen things and wonder how those things are accomplished. A natural curiosity, their minds can see things in 3D, so to speak.
I worked with a very smart and talented machinist that spent a few years as a machine shop teacher in a trade school (high school age). Basically they had two types of machines: a lathe and a milling machine (Bridgeport) He said that in a class of 30, eventually all of them could master at some degree, the lathe. After the lathe, it was off to learn the milling. He said that he would be lucky to have 5-10 of them be any good at milling. Somehow alot of them just couldn't catch on the the extra axis. They just couldn't see things from looking at the blueprint. More then likely those who really couldn't envision were really not cut out for that trade. Just like woodworking....sometimes something isn't for everyone.
Gary

[Bruce Page]

I think it is more person than tool. I have worked with literally hundreds of different machinists and tool makers over the course of 35 years or so. Everyone had the same machinery and the same basic tools. Some were excellent at their craft and others only fair and a few that would never make it above mediocre. You either have the aptitude for it or you don't.

[M. A. Espinoza]

My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.



That is an interesting statement. You didn't mention your level of experience when you bought the hybrid.

Although a better tool does make it easier to get a quality end product I haven't found that the tool makes any difference in overall quality once you learn the quirks of any particular one.

Having worked on cheapo contractor saws and high end Euro sliders and much in between I can't say that any particular tool made a difference in what was eventually turned out. It did have a great affect on speed. Not having to babysit the tool makes a big difference.

So I'm just saying to those with less elaborate tooling that it isn't a prerequisite for quality work. With experience you can make almost any POS do what you need and compensate for its shortcomings.

I don't think I've ever looked at a piece of work either in home or gallery and thought, "That looks like it was done on a $300 saw and that was done on a $5000 saw."

I sat this because I think there is a tendency in these forums to make beginners and hobbyists think that you can't do decent work unless you have "x" tool. The frustration for newer woodworkers would come from not knowing what must be done to work around the limitations of lighter duty tools.

[David Duke]

Fred this is a fantastic thread, great start far the new year.

I for one think think that there are really three aspects to your question, first there are those who aren't mechanically inclined and would never be able to build anything even using the most advanced tools available.

Then there are those like myself who when given semi decent tools and plans or even a picture/sketch can build just about anything. I've always said that if it had a motor on it that I could figure out how to use it. We can even change/modify the plans and or designs to meet our specific needs. But where we have problems is in seeing things in the abstract, I think that this is the reason that I just can't use hand tools, especially in carving I just can't seem to get the right depth or contours. I know its not right but can't figure out how to fix it because I can't "see" it.

Then there is the true craftsman, he/she can "see" a completely original finished piece before they have even laid a hand on the first tool. On top of being able to have that vision they also have the talent to use whatever tools they have at their disposal to build it, be it hand tools or the most expensive power equipment available. The varying degree of quality in these tools will only determine how they get to the final product and how long it takes to get there.

[Wayne Watling]

M. A. Espinoza,

you pulled one statement out of a bunch that tell a different story when read as a whole.

> That is an interesting statement. You didn't mention your level of experience when you bought the hybrid.

I'd been woodworking for about 2 years at that point.

>Although a better tool does make it easier to get a quality end product I haven't found that the tool makes any difference in overall quality once you learn the quirks of any particular one.

If you read my statements as a whole we sort of agree here when you take into account the time spent learning factor. I found that with the Delta there were just too many quirks to get use to. Since I was a relatively new WW I didn't know alot of the time whether it was me or the equipment that was causing certain problems, I didn't want to deal with that for the rest of my woodworking life. It just so happened that I was in the market for a jointer and planer and I knew I would eventually want to get a shaper so I bit the bullet, sold off the hybrid and got the best I could afford. Had none of those issues thereafter.

Again, you should read all the statements of my previous post and take them as a whole.

Wayne

[Andrew Williams]

Consider this:

You may have more experience than you think, since experience is not measured in linear time but in efficient use of memory (both neural and muscular). Those of us who are able to use memory more efficiently gain experience faster than those who do not (i.e. those of us who are doing this out of a personal need to do so, versus the uninterested).

People who have no frame of reference will have difficulty understanding the various steps that you took in order to get from plan to finished product. It may seem to them as if the completion of the work was somehow magical, but they have no way of knowing how long it really takes to do a piece.

Lastly, most Americans (sadly) are incapable of identifying high-quality woodwork. This is not their fault, per se, since most of us have now achieved the dubious distinction of growing up entirely within the era of cheap factory-made goods being all-inclusive.

It is no surprise that people admire your work and feel you are talented, because that is the simple truth. Do not worry about whether the titles are deserved.

[Al Killian]

To me, the tools make life easier. Talent lets someone make fine furniture. I have turned out some really nice peices with tools that should be in the scrap pile. It might take me twice as long, but It will come out just as good as if someone that has invested tons of money into tools. There is nothing wrong with haveing quality machine, if you have the knowledge to make them do what you want them to do.

[Bill Lantry]

"He told me that it was a boatload of talent that allowed me to turn this kind of stuff out. Do you guys and gals really think that is the case?"

Fred,

The problem with all this is that the terms are so fuzzy. What's aptitude? What's talent? What's skill? What, in heaven's name, is a "gift"?

It's a fun question, precisely because it can never really be answered. This is one of those things philosophers argue about over entire pitchers of beer. And the same arguments get trotted out: Plato thought something you could learn, and teach to others, should be called a skill, but other things, music, songwriting, dancing, were arts, and needed 'talent'. He only did this because he wanted to ban all the artists from his republic, precisely because they couldn't explain *how* they did things. But then, he was the kind of guy who looked down on everyone else, from poets to cooks. If you want a good laugh, try imagine the old guy, really hungry, standing in a kitchen full of good pots and and a gas stove, and not having the slightest idea how to cook the eggs...

Aristotle was actually better about this. Interesting quote: "If the art of shipbuilding were in the wood, we'd have ships by nature." Interesting to think about that when you hear turners talking about 'what the wood wants to be.' For Ari, there's nothing inherent in the materials, and there's certainly not some mystical soulful nebulous 'talent' thing out there. He's interested in what effect something has, and how that effect is produced. And elsewhere, he says our most important characteristic is a desire to learn.

So, a few months ago, #2 son was standing in the kitchen, literally trying to figure out how to make an omelet. His mother had handed him a cookbook, and was getting frustrated that he just couldn't figure it out. What she didn't realize is that when she cooks something, even something simple like that, she uses literally hundreds of techniques, lessons, things she's read or seen or discovered through trial and error. It's precisely her desire to learn, her ability to do so, to retain what she's learned, and apply it to new situations, refining as she goes, that makes her the great cook she is. Such, at least, is aristotle's view, and it's a useful one. Yes, when I had her kitchen completely ripped apart, she was able to make great dinners for six with nothing but a toaster oven and a microwave... (now that she has the kitchen, the toaster oven's in the attic... ;) but the key to that is not some inbreathed talent, but a thousand learned and applied lessons. To say anything else would be to demean her work!

Which brings us back to what your friend said. Comradely flattery is a social virtue, and I admire him for having it, and for using it. But it ain't going to help you figure out how to cut that next dovetail, or grind that bowl gouge., or adjust that bandsaw blade so it doesn't drift. ;)

Thanks,

Bill

[M. A. Espinoza]

Wayne,

Kind of got the feeling that you thought I jumped your case personally so I reread your post.



Seems to be two questions here:

1) Can the non-woodworker appreciate fine woodworking.

In my experience some can more than others but not in the same sense that a fine craftsman can.

I agree, typical consumer really doesn't notice anything beyond the finish.

2) Will the quality of tool dictate the quality of the end product

In the beginning it may help a lot (no doubt) but as the woodworkers skill level increases it becomes a little less important but its still helps to have fine tools.

Yes, better tools usually means fewer surprises.

My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.

OK, I'm sure it increased the ease of producing high quality. But the quality of your build could still have been equivalent, just likely would have required a bit more work to get there.

Best,
Wayne

I think I may have focused too much on the last statement. It seems that you may have thought I was trying to change your meaning.

What I gathered from your statement that you were building to a higher quality only because you had a more capable tool. I guess that isn't what you meant.

My opinion is that you had more experience to go along with the better tool and the experience level had more to do with your build quality than the tool. The Delta Hybrid is considered to be a capable tool, not a cabinet saw for sure but it will produce accurate work if properly tuned. So will a contractor saw, jobsite saw, etc. Their output may require more work afterwards to get to the desired result is all.

No hard feelings, maybe I didn't quite get what you were trying to say. But I did want to say something in case someone was reading and thought that anything less than a cabinet saw wasn't going to produce good quality.

[Dave Stoler]

But I beleive a desire to do the work plays a big role..You have to WANT to do it.
We all make our share of mistakes and it,s easy to get discouraged..It,s staying with it that makes us better. Spend an hour on a peice only to mis-measure or slip on a cut and trash it, then have to start over.Without the desire it would be easy to move on to gardening . :rolleyes:

[Billy Chambless]

After reading this thread a few times, it occurs to me that there's another issue: patience. Given the same skill, it takes a lot more patience to do good work with limited equipment. (For some of us, substitute "attention span" for "patience".)

[alex grams]

A good thread with a good conversation. Now, my 2 cents:

It is all about patience. Tools help you do the job better and more efficiently, but having patience and dedication to learn and apply things is probably about 90% of what it takes to build stuff.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

That's a very good question.

I look back on my first projects and have to laugh... they are rough and were built with a circular saw and some nails. The funny thing is one of them is still in my living room and my wife won't let me get rid of it.

Over time I have improved the quality of my tools and my work has improved. Does that mean that I am producing a better product because I have higher quality tools? I don't really think so, over time I have learned better and better ways to do things and have found out some of the places where time can be cut and time can not be cut.

If I gave my shop to a few of my friends they wouldn't produce anything better than what you can buy at wal-mart.

The dedication to quality and doing it right doesn't come from the tools, it comes from the passion of the person using said tools.

[Jim Dunn]

To me the word is "imagination". Sure tools and talent do lend themselves to the finished product, but if you can't imagine how to do or see something then you'll fail. It may look OK to the untrained eye but your imagination talents will bring even the most difficult project to the end.

I hope some of the above makes sense:) As my imagination runs to plans and that isn't really imagining anything.

[Thom Sturgill]

Good thread, and a lot of thoughfull comments Fred. Now my $.02...

Two analogies come to mind. First, since I used to be in the guitar business in a prior life... we were often asked whether a customer should buy a GOOD instrument or a cheap beater to learn on. We always answered that if you bought the beater, that while a real talent could produce decent music on it, you would get frustrated trying to learn on it, because it owuld never sound very good. While if you bought the good instrument you would KNOW when you had that chord right as it would SOUND right. So good equipment helps with the learning curve.

The other analogy is - imagine a pile of wood, been setting outside poorly covered for years, got a square and handsaw that I ran over last week. There's a few other badly abused tools available. I need to make a table. The ordinary Joe, even with some training, is going to make a pitiful table that probably would not stand long. A really competent craftsman would be able to work around (or fix) most of the tool problems and might actually make a decent, functional table. A true artisan might well come up with a table that not only functions well, but blows you mind with its beauty. (Some items recently posted made from stumps come to mind here).

One last thought, I took art classes all the way through school and used to watch several of the painting shows, and one comment that always stuck in my mind, the artist is ALWAYS his own worst critic, because he had the vision, and knows how far from the mark the piece fell.

Fred, all, be charitable with yourself, and your work, and have a happy and productive new year...

[John Bailey]

A couple of examples.

Many years ago, I worked with a secretary who was very artistic. I noticed one day she was punching the holes in sheets of paper, one hole at a time, to go into a 3-ring binder. She was very quick and I thought she had to be off on her alignment. I asked her why she didn't just use the 3-ring punch as I supposed it was quicker and easier. She said she didn't have time to line up all that paper and it was quicker her way. I chided her a bit, for I couldn't believe anyone could off-hand align the holes by sight, she handed me the papers, with a glowering impatient look, and said "look for your self." To my surprise, the holes were exact, just like when done on the punch. This folks, goes beyond talent and enters the area of genius. I doubt that one in a million could do what she did.

Once in high school, I found myself in the choir room with a girl, our accompanist for the choir, alone. She was someone I was interested in and decided to show off a bit. I knew she had perfect pitch. I was at the piano, she could not see the keyboard, and I challenged her to tell me what note I was playing. As I played each key, she told me exactly which pitch I was playing. I played a chord. She identified which chord and the exact notes in that chord. In desperation, I took both hands and pushed down many keys at one time in a very non-chordal manner. She identified, in order, each key I was playing. Again, this goes beyond talent.

I've read where Sam Maloof can do some of the work he does because he has the ability to see the side of a piece of wood that is facing him, and to visualize the cut on the other side, the side that can't be seen. For those of us who spend hours figuring out jigs so we can get our cuts correct, this goes beyond talent.

In the end, with the proper tools, proper technique, patience and imagination, we can do some impressive and beautiful work. I'm sure most of your friends that were in awe of your abilities could do similar work given the same dedication. However, I will tell you, there are some in every field that defy the term talent. For them, we have to just smile and appreciate their great gifts.

John

[Ken Fitzgerald]

For them, we have to just smile and appreciate their great gifts.

John


John....is it okay if I just stick my tongue out at them and cuss a bit?:D

[Wayne Watling]

Wayne,
Kind of got the feeling that you thought I jumped your case personally so I reread your post.


Thanks for re-reading, I never thought you did it on purpose it just kind of bothered me when on the very first reply it got taken out of context, which is what I wanted to avoid - because I know how touchy touchy this type of subject can get. Absolutely no hard feelings :), thanks again for making the effort.

See below..






My first table saw was a Delta hybrid, within a year I sold it and purchased a Minimax, I can say without any doubt it has helped to increase the quality of the end product.


OK, I'm sure it increased the ease of producing high quality. But the quality of your build could still have been equivalent, just likely would have required a bit more work to get there.


If you take that line of thinking to the nth degree anyone or group could build the pyramids using toothpicks over a long enough period of time, it could be done, but!

Given the set of subjective circumstances at the time, that was my real life experience. Theoretically (dont you loave that word) anything is possible and could be done, especially in hindsite (from which almost anything is possible).
I'll re-state that given my experience and knowledge levels at the time, a change to higher quality equipment with some of the following characteristics definately helped me make higher quality end product:
- retains settings
- has solid stops on the fence
- travels in a perfectly straight line past the blade
- more power to make cleaner cuts and won't bog down during a cut
- greater depth of cut
- complete work without the constant need to construct so many jigs

Now i'm sure an experienced craftsman could get around all of the problems that plaged me with the hybrid to go on and build a high end piece, and in theory I could have too but thats in theory which is quite different to realtime realworld experience.


Wayne,
My opinion is that you had more experience to go along with the better tool and the experience level had more to do with your build quality than the tool. The Delta Hybrid is considered to be a capable tool, not a cabinet saw for sure but it will produce accurate work if properly tuned. So will a contractor saw, jobsite saw, etc. Their output may require more work afterwards to get to the desired result is all.


Perhaps a little more experience but the difference in quality in my subjective but real world experience was apparent pretty much immediately after using the better quality equipment. It's not that hard to imagine how a relatively new woodworker could get more confused and frustrated with tools that don't work as expected than a well seasoned craftman would, and hence go on to produce a lesser quality end product in essence a reflection of that frustration.



No hard feelings, maybe I didn't quite get what you were trying to say. But I did want to say something in case someone was reading and thought that anything less than a cabinet saw wasn't going to produce good quality.


My opinion on this has changed since I started woodworking, it use to be that I could do anything with minimal equipment if I was patient and dedicated etc etc.. its now, get the absolute best quality you can afford.

Best,
Wayne

[Richard Niemiec]

Fred: It might just be folks in New Jersey, but I've gotten the same reaction from a lot of people. Now I'm no Sam Maloof either, and likely less talented than you are, but I'm working at getting better and choose projects and designs that make me use new techniques and challenge me to gain new skills.

Tools help, no doubt about it. Just last night I was fitting some shelves into dados and can't imagine doing it without my #98 and #99, although before I got them I made it work, but now my joints are crisper and fit just right. But then again, I didn't make the joint a stopped dovetail because my bride wants the project done, so we all make compromises. But even good tools, if not adjusted and maintained properly, are no guaranty of success.

But to the gist of it, I think its a combination of aptitude and experience, both seasoned with desire. By aptitude, I mean that ability to visualize in your mind what you are going to end up with after you sketch out your plan. By experience I mean the ability to know what problems/issues will arise, and the right means to overcome or avoid those issues during the process. By desire I mean the will to actually do something yourself, whether it be born of economic necessity (I can't afford to pay someone to do it so I'll do it myself) or narcissism (if David Marks can do this, so can I).

I think most of the folks who swoon over the "magic" of woodwork simply don't have the aptitude, and without aptitude you don't get experience. Those with desire alone (generally born of economic necessity) who have tried to install, say, a three piece cornice in their dining room, don't generally swoon, but those folks look at your work, know how difficult it was in their experience, and quietly say "nice work, really nice work" and its those compliments which mean much more to me, when its all said and done.

Of course, I value most compliments of folks like "us" who actually do have the aptitude, experience and desire.......

My 2 cents. RN

[William Nimmo]

I am often told that I am extremely talented at woodworking. (by non-woodworkers).
I smile and say thank you .
I am capable, have a good eye, know how to use my tools and really enjoy it. Over the years I have developed some skill...But I know the truth.
There are some really talented people that can do some just rediculous things with wood. I do not consider myself one of the "really talented".

The biggest thing I can' figure out is the patience thing. I am so impatient with most things..but with woodworking I can cut, cope and sand hundreds of pieces of wood for a project and not feel overwhelmed at all.

[Billy Chambless]

We always answered that if you bought the beater, that while a real talent could produce decent music on it, you would get frustrated trying to learn on it, because it owuld never sound very good. While if you bought the good instrument you would KNOW when you had that chord right as it would SOUND right. So good equipment helps with the learning curve.


I've found that to be true. In any pursuit, good equipment makes it more FUN, which makes it easier to stick with it long enough to get good.

On the other hand (just to drag out the music analogy some), my all-time favorite compliment as a musician was one night when I sat in with a friend's band, and the guitarist complimented the tone I was getting -- out of HIS equipment!

[Roy Hatch]

Good grief, what a long thread! Now let's see if I can contribute something that hasn't already been said.

Look at the work that Roy Underhill does without electricity. Would all the power tools in the world make him a better woodworker? I think the answer would be, "No, but he could make more pieces."

Sort of like imagining what Shakespeare would have accomplished with a word processor.

So we all work with what we have and sometimes wish we had a bigger shop or more expensive tools. And sometimes, we are just thankful that we have the opportunity to do what we do.

Roy

[Fred Voorhees]

That's a very good question.

I look back on my first projects and have to laugh... they are rough and were built with a circular saw and some nails. The funny thing is one of them is still in my living room and my wife won't let me get rid of it.


Reminds me of the end table kind of thing that I made in high school shop class. Jesus, that was around thirty two or thirty three years ago. Anyway, there it sits in our living room, rough as can be. But you know what, I guess it serves as a reminder of just how far I have come as a woodworker. I wouldn't want to part with it for that reason alone.

[Wayne Watling]

Good grief, what a long thread! Now let's see if I can contribute something that hasn't already been said.

Look at the work that Roy Underhill does without electricity. Would all the power tools in the world make him a better woodworker? I think the answer would be, "No, but he could make more pieces."

Sort of like imagining what Shakespeare would have accomplished with a word processor.

Roy


Roy,

Was the question: 'what would make us better woodworkers' or 'do the right tools help us produce a better product' ?

Two different questions aren't they?



So we all work with what we have and sometimes wish we had a bigger shop or more expensive tools. And sometimes, we are just thankful that we have the opportunity to do what we do.
Roy


Beautifully said..

[Fred Voorhees]

Roy,

Was the question: 'what would make us better woodworkers' or 'do the right tools help us produce a better product' ?

Two different questions aren't they?



Beautifully said..

You know what.....I certainly have to agree!!

[Bill Wyko]

I'm going to have to jump in on this one. :DYou DEFENITLY have to be talented. I can prove it too. I own a Mobile electronics business and have for almost 20 years. I also have a great selection of tools for my employees. We build custom doors, woofer boxes, consoles and just about anything else you can dream up. This does require woodworking on a daily basis. I have had many employees in the past that you could give them instructions that would almost do the job for them, yet they could still screw things up as though they had never been told a word and never seen a tool before. In fact, I'd be surprised if they could fill a glass of water from the open end. (They've usually been fired within a week)On the other hand. I have a team of installers now that I can give the briefest of instructions and turn out the most amazing work you'll find anywhere. (I can back that up as well. 7 Installer of the year awards) Check out my website at www.audio2000az.com (http://www.audio2000az.com) I don't sell on line though. So hands down you must be one skilled individual to do quality work. There are many, many people that have no concept of quality and attention to detail what so ever. Absolutely no doubt in my mind at all.

[Jim Becker]

Bill (and Fred and everyone else), IMHO, one of the keys is that someone who really excels at creating things (including woodworking projects) has to have "the vision"...the ability to actually visualize the end result AND the steps to get there. That's where the talent lies. Most folks can learn to use a tool, particularly for repetitive tasks, but not everyone can see when that same tool might be used in a variety of situations as a means to an end when starting from scratch. Fortunately, it's also true that many folks can get there if they have directions/plans/assistance/mentoring. That means more enjoyment for more people.

[John Bailey]

John....is it okay if I just stick my tongue out at them and cuss a bit?:D

Not if they have a chisel in their hand!!:rolleyes:

John

[Chris Parks]

A friend of mine is into motor racing as I am. The difference is he was "IT". Now I don't know whar "IT" is but anyone who sees him on the track always sees the same thing in him, that inate and natural ability to drive in ways a mere mortal finds impossible. He says he can, given time teach anyone to drive fast but not necessarily be a winner. I think that this magic ingredient that super talented people have for their chosen field of expertise and how they discover that they have it is one of those mysteries of life which is part of the big mysterious world we live in. I suppose the term "god given" springs to mind, I can think of no other that suits.

[Dave McGeehan]

Over twenty years ago I met one of the most original characters I've ever known who was an amazing woodcarver/painter/sculpturer/furniture maker. During my first clay sculpting lesson with him he cut off a hunk of clay using an old beat up machete he brought back from the Philippines during WWII. Each successive tool he used was even more primitive than the previous. I told him I had a catalog where he could order better tools. He said, pointing to his head, I already have a good tool.

While I agree with his point, I went from a tiny apartment with a bandsaw and one carving knife to a fully equiped shop filled with every high-end hand and power tool I felt I needed (and still buying).

Training, patience, attention to detail, inspiration, pride in workmanship, love of transforming the rough into the envisioned all go a long way but it's a lot more fun with good tools.

But even if I were still living the days of no money and no room, I'd not give up trying to shape a chunk of tree into something other than its original form.

[Bill Wyko]

I think one of the issues that go through ones mind is, is this a burden or is it a challenge? Too many people think they should get paid for getting out of bed in the morning. If you look at the tasks at hand with an attitude like that, the only thing you'll get done that day is getting a little farther behind for the next day. If you look at the tasks at hand as a challenge of the mind, you stand a much greater chance of expressing you're creative side. This is where great ideas come from. IMHO.:) I will say, there are many people here that have no problem challenging them selfs in the creativity department. You all have some serious skills.:)

[Craig McDaniel]

I've enjoyed reading this thread...lots of good thoughts about aptitude, talent, desire and the rest.

One thing that's missing, though I think, is that progressing in a craft requires a willingness to fail utterly.

For every project that I've done that friends and family ooh and aahh over, there's another one where the wood's been salvaged (as much as possible) for the next try. Those projects weren't failures though because I learned something about how to tackle the next attempt (or how not to).

I've worked with a few friends to start them in woodworking. Too often, I've seen them limited not by their ability but by their unwillingness to "get it wrong" and start over.

Craig

[Frank Orzehoski]

Fred - that is a great post! I think some of the problem is what people are used to buying and seeing from the mass retailers. It is veenered particle board junk that some people have come to accept. They then see true craftmasnhip like your work and they are impressed. As far as the tools, don't sell yourself short, you still practiced and learned how to use them. One of the fallacies out there especially about Norm is that if you have all the tools just turning them on makes you a 1st class wood worker. You still have to learn how to use the tool, adjust it, feed rate, etc. A router in Norm's hand is a lot different then a router in the hands of a beginning woodworker. It's nice your friends recognized the quality of your work.

[Jim Becker]

One thing that's missing, though I think, is that progressing in a craft requires a willingness to fail utterly.

Oh, yea...big time. If you don't challenge yourself and fail, you don't learn. And that, IMHO, is more risky that any kind of material and/or time loss you might have through that failure.

[Jim Mims]

John Bailey - nice story.
When I started working as an electrician, I bought an electric engraver to mark all my hand tools. My aunt, who was visiting us, volunteered to engrave them. Knowing the mess I'd make of it, I jumped at the offer and let her do it. It was amazing to watch her work. When she finished with one particular plier, I picked it up to look at it and did a double-take. My name was there in cursive writing and each individual dot was evenly placed!

- Jim

[Dennis Peacock]

Ok Fred....you asked....so here goes.....

I've done a good bit of woodworking on the past 30+ years of my life. I used to work with whatever I had around. I bought tools and used them but my end product never really improved at the level I had expected. When I started buying better tools is when my pieces started getting to the point where people were wanting me to make "something for them".

Practice makes near perfect.
Good quality machines and tools makes a better / more effecient craftsman.

Overall? Know your tools and what each will and will not do for you in your shop. There is no replacement for knowlege and experience.

[Fred Voorhees]

What a great - great thread this has been. I honestly expected to come to the forum tonight and find it buried on the second or third page by now. Still, more guys are still chiming in with their views and thoughts and it has really been some great reading. I was reminded of this thread today at work. I was doing something a bit out of the ordinary and the task asked me to mentally view what I wanted the end product to look like. I had to do that so that I could plan my way to that end result. It's that ability to have and form a vision of what you want in an end product that some of the posters have opined is one of the talents that make us good, or great, woodworkers. Anyway, for those that care to add their thoughts, feel free. At this point, I have so many different views and thoughts, it really has added a perspective or two for me.

[Mark Singer]

This is a great thread! To non woodworkers it is not easy to grasp the separate steps we take to make a project. We , ourselves don't realize all the little things we have learned and put together to make a project come together. You pick up a lot of skill and techniques over time and most of it stays and you can recall and use the experience as needed. Design is much the same way. I have always drawn and sketched well by hand and later with computer. But often new designs are labor intensive. So much has been already done you need to break through with something fresh that works and will still look good in 10 or 20 years. It is a dialogue with though and sketch and throw it out and start over. And let a day pass, sometimes a week and then something magical may happen. I just know that that design will either make or break the next project and if I don't have the skill to execute it, it will not fairly represent my idea. So it all needs to be strong, the idea, design and execution. A labor of love...

[Joe Jensen]

Interesting thread, here is my perspective.
First, better tools can enable better results, or similar results easier.
Without enough skill, the tools won't matter, and they can even be dangerous.

Here are the stages I've gone through.
1) Basic skills, follow plans, decent fit on joints, etc. Stuff looks home made, but tons of fun and pride.
2) Solid skills, learn the importance of square, plumb, flatness, etc. Results are better, no longer proud of things produces in stage 1. Still building things designed by others.
3) Develop the ability to redesign on the fly. The boards available don't quite fit the project, make things slightly smaller. Make a mistake, adapt, don't cut new stock.
4) Design your own stuff. Take some inspiration, but do your own designs. I personally don't ever draw plans or cut lists. I do a lot of sketches to determine proportions, shape, etc.
5) Own designs are improving
6) Prefect execution. Low tolerance for even small errors.
7) Learn how to fix mistakes without starting over. Get very far into complex projects, make mistake, figure out how to recover on the fly.
8) The wood is everything. I now have a house full of things I've made so I now spend more time and money to get the perfect wood for whatever I'm buidling. For example, put 20 hours into a small jewelry box, I now spend $80 on wood instead of $5.

[Mike Wilkins]

I read a quote once when a person was responding to a statement about Norm Abram; the person stated anyone could make furniture if they had the shop that Norm has. To which the person stated: All the tools in the world mean nothing without the skill of the operator.
Nuff said.

[FRITZ STOOP]

it is not a thing i do, it is a place i go
a place that satisfies me like no other

[William Nimmo]

My brother in law was over at the holidays and while getting away from the family noise we were talking in my shop. He said that he saw some pens a friend of his had made, and he liked them. He thought he would try it. He told me that he was shocked that when he bought his lathe, it didn't come with directions. I just said woodworking tools don't tell you how to use them.
I guess knowledge is a big part of the "talent" we pocess.

[Bill Wyko]

My brother in law was over at the holidays and while getting away from the family noise we were talking in my shop. He said that he saw some pens a friend of his had made, and he liked them. He thought he would try it. He told me that he was shocked that when he bought his lathe, it didn't come with directions. I just said woodworking tools don't tell you how to use them.
I guess knowledge is a big part of the "talent" we pocess.
The instructions are on the label "Lathe":D

[Greg McCallister]

Great thread!
I find that most who woodwork are in other ways what is known as "good with their hands".
I, by no means at this time, can produce some of the quality craftsmanship of what I have seen here in this forum and may never reach the levels of some. But I am determined to be the best I can.
Vision I think is the main thing about wood working. I watch both Norm and Dave M on their woodworking shows. What is interesting is I see both men creating the same joint with the same results but a different way of doing it with different tools or method. Was it the tool or the one using it?
Most tools are made with a particular purpose in mind. The more different ways you can use that tool shows talent and skill. I have seen great work out of a shop with just a few power tools. On the other hand have seen some pretty shoddy work with someone who has the best money can buy.
This also Kind of reminds me about a game called golf.
I had a friend who bought a brand new bla bla driver golf club. He was the envy of the group - that is until he tried to use it. He still sliced the ball.
Now in theory, that club should have bettered his game - yet it did not. Another buddy tried the new golf club and crushed the ball straight and true.
As a former mechanic (now technical writer) I had the knack to tear apart a dash of a car and reassemble it again without forgetting a screw. Some had well over 50 to 60 fasteners. I am not bragging – it’s just a knack for detail or is it just mechanical aptitude? Yet there are people who can’t change the oil on their car. It’s not that I am any better than the one who can’t change their oil, it is more in the way I think.
What makes someone become a doctor instead of a lawyer, or a mechanic or computer technician?
Better tools do help but do not help someone who knows not how to use them or more like the vision on how to use them.

[Corey Wilcox]

My father has many years of experience in woodworking having done it professionally for a large company for 13+ years and was responsible for making some incredible pieces while employed there. While he was there he had access to the best equipment on the market and his work was second to none. When he quit that job his access to woodworking equipment was reduced to a handful of 50+ year old, rusted and out of tune tools that were only partially working. He rehabbed them back into working condition with what he had available (washer motors, old extension cords, etc.) and even though they're buried in junk between the two cars in his unheated garage he still makes incredible furniture, cabinets, turned vases, you name it. I am at a total loss to explain how he can do it, how his things can be so incredibly accurate, and how he can be as fast as he is. The last time I was there he was using a 24 tooth circle saw blade in the tablesaw that I think had been used to make pallets for a year before he got it. He always says that tools are only a small part of the equation, it's more important to know how each tool works, why it works the way it does and which tool should be used for which job. Honestly I think he can make it happen because, he just has the "knack" for it and because he can sharpen every tool he owns (except for that stupid carbide tablesaw blade) to an absolute razor edge. So having great tools can certainly make it possible for average folks like myself to do a good job, but I think there's also people out there who have sawdust in their veins and could build a New England tall boy with nothing but a hatchet, bent nails and some worn out sandpaper.

[GERALD HARGROVE]

With wood working you have to be able to see what you are going to make, before it is made. I know a few people that can not look at a stack of wood and figure out how to get it from a stack of wood to a peice of furniture. No matter how many times you walk them through the process or how many tools you give them, they can not figure it out.
Now, I have experianced that as I learn and develop my skills in wood working, that owning the right tool for the job takes you up a few levels. But, you have to be able to do it to begin with first.

[Russ Sears]

I'm enjoying this thread but must admit that I've skipped through it. I'll read the whole thing when I have time to relax and enjoy it.
I am a very average, beginning woodworker. Last year I made a tea tray for my wife. Our school was having a benefit auction and my wife suggested we donate the tray and I make her another one (not because the tray was THAT crappy but because we wanted to make something and I didn't have time).
The tray was made of cherry and absolutely no one here would've been impressed with the workmanship. The finger joints weren't particularly tight, the inlay was a bit too deep and the holes that I cut for handles on the ends with a scroll saw didn't quite match. However, I did take my time with staining and finishing and the grain really did look beautiful.

As the auction proceeded I gradually slumped lower and lower in my chair as the price went to $175. It was presented as a hand made tray and, thankfully, no one else knew that I was the "craftsman".

All that is to say that those who don't engage in woodworking are fascinated by the fact that something is made in a local shop rather than overseas and put a tremendous value on it.
Hopefully the buyer doesn't look as closely at it as anyone here would and I certainly hope they are enjoying it.

My next one WILL be better partly because my skills are improving and partly because I have much better tools now. I'm not sure which is more important and perhaps the answer is different for each individual. In my case, I need the best tools I can possibly find and afford!

[Phil Clark]

I agree with Chuck, but would add it pays to have a sense of adventure and a willingness to try new things. Dick B.

I'm with Dick on this one. Yesterday our Guild directors met to plan programming and we focused on the issue of getting our non-producing members (about half) to get into the shop and make something. A heck of a challenge. If you've ever done shop tours you will see an enormous difference in tools and quality of equipment. I believe, for the hobbyist, that woodworking is an adventure propelled by curiosity and a sense of accomplishment. The wonderful thing about the result is that few who see it are aware of the warts - thankfully, that is usually left to the maker who normally wants to do better next time.

[Dexter Hahn]

it is not a thing i do, it is a place i go
a place that satisfies me like no other

True. I always say, it's not something I do, it's something I am. If it was merely something I do, I could just give it up and not think about it.