90 degree angle on Tormek

[Larry R. Rosing]

Just bought a Tormek T7 a month ago. Can't get a 90 degree angle on chisels or hand planer blades with the new straight edge jig. I've posted this problem on the Tormek users forum, but wanted to see if anyone on the forum (just joined yesterday) would have any help. Getting very frustrated with the whole business.

Larry

[Justin Bukoski]

Larry, check and see if the stone is true. You may need to true the stone even if its new. After the stone is true check to make sure the gap from the universal support to the stone is the same all the way across.

[Larry R. Rosing]

Justin,

Thanks for the reply. I have checked this on a number of occasions and all with the same results. As to the checking of the gap between the universal support and the stone, I sat the support down on the stone and put a light behind it to see if there was any light showing. There wasn't. Is there another way to check this gap?

[Eddie Darby]

Is the jig always favoring one side over the other?
Are both ends off?

I would try a chisel on the left side of the jig, and then another chisel on the right side of the jig. Making sure that it registers up against the lip on the jig.

Check the results.

[Larry R. Rosing]

Eddie, thanks for the reply. I'm quite frustrated at this point. When the chisel is in the SE-76 Jig, in the grinding position, (bevel down toward the stone) more steel has been removed from the left side of the chisel (outside part of the jig). Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks, Larry

[Chuck Wintle]

Eddie, thanks for the reply. I'm quite frustrated at this point. When the chisel is in the SE-76 Jig, in the grinding position, (bevel down toward the stone) more steel has been removed from the left side of the chisel (outside part of the jig). Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks, Larry

Is there any to lock on the chisel to the jig to ensure it is exactly square to the grinding stone? It looks like, from the picture at least, that it would be quite easy to grind a non square edge to a chisel.

[Matt Bickford]

I have an older Tormek. On mine, this phenomenon is often a result of over tightening one of the two screws that hold the chisel in the jig. Overtightening one of the knobs skews the chisel/iron. This is a common result with new users. There are other possibilities. You will get your answers and will ultimately be very happy with your purchase.

[Jeff Farris]

The new SE-76 is a completely different animal from the SVH-60, and the procedure to "tweak" a tool into square on the old jig will not work on the new one.

Here are some things to investigate with the new jig.

1) As already mentioned, parallelism of the Universal Support and the grindstone is absolutely vital. This goes beyond truing the grindstone. The Universal Support has to have a bit of clearance between the mounting sleeves and the arms. The tolerance is as tight as we can allow, and still have the U.S. move easily. The tolerance can allow the U.S. to lock in a slightly different alignment when it is moved. To overcome this, get in the habit of using the micro-adjuster, and put your thumb on the Universal Support, directly above the micro-adjuster every time you lock the Universal Support. If you are always directing pressure down against the micro-adjuster when you lock the Universal Support, it should maintain uniform alignment to the grindstone. Do it the same way all the time and you'll improve your results.

2) The new jig uses a machined edge to align the tool in the jig, as compared to the old jig's two point contact. Open up the jig, and insure that there is absolutely nothing along that edge. Likewise, check the edge of your chisel for nicks, bits of dried glue, etc. There must be a perfect fit between the tool edge and the jig reference. I have also noticed a tendency for the tool to pull off the reference line when tightening the clamping bar. Carefully hold the tool against the reference line when securing the clamp, and check it once you have tightened the clamp. In addition to checking that the tool is on the reference line, use a square between the tool edge and the front of the jig. In the highly unlikely event that the tool is perfectly on the reference line, but out of square to the front of the jig, contact me. These things are machined on very precise mills, and each and every one has been checked for square on an elaborate gauge, but things do happen.

My best guess is that the tool is creeping a little when you are securing the clamping bar. That's where I find my greatest challenge.

Sorry about the lack of response on our forum. I dumped the cookies on my computer, and I've lost the admin password for the board. My webmaster is still on NY vacation until Monday.

[Larry R. Rosing]

Jeff, Thanks again for the advice. I have done everything you suggested: 1) stone is true (put US support down on stone, put a light behind it and it is flat across) 2) chisel flat up against the machined edge of the jig with no gaps 3) checked this reference after tightening the jig, still good 4) set the angle with the micro adjuster and pushed down directly over the micro adjuster and tightened as per your instructions. After grinding, I still had an angle. With chisel out of the jig and the bevel facing up, the high point is on the left side. In the jig this would be the right side with bevel down of course. I am at a loss. I can't belive my technique could be that incorrect. Ready to give up on the whole thing.

Larry

P.S. with the chisel in the jig, I put a small square on right side of the jig and the side of the chisel that referenced the machined notch was square to the jig if that helps any.

Thanks again for your help.

[Jeff Farris]

Larry,

The next step is to draw Torgny into this discussion. I will e-mail him and have him read this thread. He'll either have additional suggestions, or will ask that you return the jig and let us send you a new one.

[Wilbur Pan]

Larry,

This is a bit of a stretch because although I have and use a Tormek, I don't have the new straight edge jig. But have you checked to see that the sides and/or top of your chisel are actually square with your intended edge? Some chisels are made with the sides not exactly square with the cutting edge.

[Larry R. Rosing]

Thanks Jeff

Larry

[Larry R. Rosing]

Wilbur, thanks for the response. I have checked the sides of the chisel and they are parallel.

[Jeff Farris]

Larry, please call the customer service line (1-800-586-7635). We want to send you a new jig and get that one back for evaluation.

[Kirk Howard]

I know this is an old thread but what was the end result here? The exact same thing is happening to me.

Super sharp yet slightly skewed chisels and plane blades...I tried a whole bunch...

[Jeff Farris]

Kirk,

Are you using a new SE-76 or the older SVH-60? The jig makes a very big difference in the advice on how to correct.

[Kirk Howard]

Ahh, the details...SE-76, it's a brand new machine.

I used the truing device twice, once right out of the box and once after a couple of sharpening tries. In the vertical position, the support is parallel to the wheel. The tool edge is also parallel to the "fixed" half of the square jig (measured with a square).

I think that maybe the wide surface (or the side) of the grinding wheel should be perpendicular to the universal support, but I can't figure out how to measure that.

[Kirk Howard]

Additionally, I just loaded a square into the square jig, and it is square to the side of the wheel. I penciled a line across the grinding surface against the square, and that line is square (just literally a hair off) to the side if the wheel as it should be from the previous measurement.

I think all those measurements validate the jig to support to wheel alignment.

So tonight I'll sharpen some more and look at my method--pressure on the tool, and whatever else I can think of.

[Jeff Farris]

Excellent job looking at the details.

Pressure issues can be significant, and it's often very hard to detect, since you're not aware how much stronger your dominant side is.

The following issue is less likely, since you saw similar results on several tools, but with the introduction of the SE-76 we found that most of the customer issues that came to our attention involved blades that were twisted ever so slightly. This issue can be minimized by working with as little tool protruding from the front of the jig as possible.

[Ryan Baker]

I don't know if it is relevant to the SE-76 jig (I haven't seen one), but one thing that can also be an issue (at least with the older jig) is that the chisel may not be of even thickness across its width. I have some (cheaper) chisels where the top and bottom surfaces aren't parallel -- it is thicker on one side than the other. The top surface is parallel with the stone, but the bottom surface is not parallel to the stone and the edge ends up out of square. The fix with the old jig is to "cheat" it a bit with the clamping screws to make the important surface parallel to the stone. (It may not be related to your problem, but maybe it will help someone.)

[Kirk Howard]

OK, I just ran several more chisels and irons through and something is still out of whack.

I re-did the dressing wheel, this time moving from R to L, instead of L to R (I don't know why, I just did). The grinding wheel is definitely removing more material from the left side than the right. I can even hear the difference as I move the blades. No amount of pressure (without risking movement of the support) will compensate for the left side.

Blade/iron inconsistencies are not the problem, I sharpened too many.

I'm stumped, and I can usually figure anything out. :(

[Alan Schaffter]

I had the same problem with my Tormek. Sold it and bought a Worksharp- no longer a problem. Much easier for a ham-fisted woodworker like me to get a great edge, and no mess. I have even trusted my LN plane iron on it.

[Jeff Farris]

OK, I just ran several more chisels and irons through and something is still out of whack.

I re-did the dressing wheel, this time moving from R to L, instead of L to R (I don't know why, I just did). The grinding wheel is definitely removing more material from the left side than the right. I can even hear the difference as I move the blades. No amount of pressure (without risking movement of the support) will compensate for the left side.

Blade/iron inconsistencies are not the problem, I sharpened too many.

I'm stumped, and I can usually figure anything out. :(

Kirk,

I know how frustrating this can be. The fact that the wheel is not cutting uniformly across the surface is a little disconcerting. How much have you removed from the grindstone? I have seen inconsistencies in the stones, but they're usually very thin and don't last through more than one or two truing cycles.

Where and when did you get your system?

[Kirk Howard]

Well let's see. Five applications of the truing jig, turning the micro-adjusting nut by 1 number. I don't want to search for that increment in the book right now, but it's what, a couple of thousandths of an inch? So maybe 1/100th removed? Not much was removed from the wheel, even if I am off by a decimal.

Any idea what i should try next? I think I'll try a few more truing passes and see what happens.

[Jeff Farris]

Before you true the wheel again, do this for me.

Bring the Universal Support down so that it is almost but not quite touching the grindstone. With a light source behind it, look at the gap between the Universal Support and the grindstone. If you see that it is not parallel, then perhaps the stone wore unevenly in your first few sharpenings and you are not cutting deeply enough to get it back to parallel.

Always make sure that you use the micro-adjuster and place your thumb on top of the bar directly above the micro-adjuster when you lock it up. Get in the habit of making adjustments the same way all the time and the bar will always lock up in the same plane.

[Danny Burns]

Please keep us up-to-date on how things workout.
I am curious if this new jig does the trick. My guess is that it should.
Thanks.

[Kirk Howard]

I took a poor backlit picture of the support close to the grinding wheel and parallelism looks ok to me.

Anyway, I'll re-dress the wheel and take off 1/32 or 1/16 this evening and try to sharpen something else, though I'm about to run out of the second string/bench warmer tools.

And if I read the last suggestion right, I'll apply downward pressure to the top of the universal support along the axis of the rod that holds the micro-adjuster while I tighten the support screws.

[Bill Miltner]

Larry,
This may not be your problem but... I found that I sometimes exerted too much downward pressue on the chisel and thus distorted the Universal Support ever so little. But that distortion caused a slightly out of square edge.

[Todd Bin]

I had the same problem with plane irons sharpening more on one side. Checked everything and was very frustrated. The I went and bought the Jet jig thinking I could always return it. Worked much better. I don't know if the Tormek jig was just ever so slightly out of square or what. But I haven't looked back either.

[David Keller NC]

Kirk - This may not satisfy you that you've something amiss with the chisel support jig, stone, or universal support.

But, in my opinion, it is better to work towards what the tool's doing on the stone that relying on measurements of squareness, etc... It is, for example, possible that the jig you have has a slightly out of parallel set of holes and bushings, so that it doesn't slide exactly true on the jig.

This is what I do, and it removes all measurements, etc.. from the equation. Set the chisel in the jig, and determine the grinding angle by sighting at 90 degrees to the chisel side - in other words, look where the bevel is contacting the stone.

Once the grinding angle is determined, with the machine "off", slide the chisel bevel across the stone a couple of times. This will mark the bevel - without removing the chisel from the jig, turn it over and look at the marks. If the set-up is true and will gridn the chisel straight across, you should see the marks go straight across the bevel, and they should be of equal width from the right to left on the tool's bevel. If not, slightly tap the handle or the blade of the chisel to skew it slightly and correct the angle. Repeat (you can add some magic marker to the bevel if you've got too many marks to tell the latest adjustment from the earlier ones).

I use this procedure every time I wish to gridn the whole bevel of a tool - it works like a charm, and no squares, rules, or other measurements are involved.

[Kirk Howard]

David,
That is a great plan B, and what I will use if I can't figure it out tonight. Thanks for that.

I'm probably spending way too much time on the standard process, but that is what I thought I bought. Nevertheless, my tools have never been sharper, faster.

I can rule out all my "operator" error tonight and attribute the squareness problem to exactly what you mentioned--the jig holes are out of alignment with the reference edge for the tool. I'll request a replacement from Tormek if that's the case.

Thanks again.

[Mark Koury]

I have used a Tormek for a few years. When they came out with the new jig for plane and chisel blades, I bought one. It was NOT square. My old one still was. I re-trued the stone. This didn’t help. These jigs are made of soft metal. They are easy to file. I was able to remove a little metal and did successfully square the thing. Now it works. So, it’s probably not anything you’re doing if you are sure that you squared the stone and have the blade snug against the front and back of the jig.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have used a Tormek for a few years. When they came out with the new jig for plane and chisel blades, I bought one. It was NOT square. My old one still was. I re-trued the stone. This didn’t help. These jigs are made of soft metal. They are easy to file. I was able to remove a little metal and did successfully square the thing. Now it works. So, it’s probably not anything you’re doing if you are sure that you squared the stone and have the blade snug against the front and back of the jig.

Interesting. And I though it was my imagination that the chisel was not "square", but since I'm not a pro, I accepted the results, since the chisels are WAY sharper than ever before. I'll try filing down my jig. What exactly did you file? Just make the side more square?

Thanks!!!

[Danny Burns]

This is what I do, and it removes all measurements, etc.. from the equation. Set the chisel in the jig, and determine the grinding angle by sighting at 90 degrees to the chisel side - in other words, look where the bevel is contacting the stone.

Once the grinding angle is determined, with the machine "off", slide the chisel bevel across the stone a couple of times. This will mark the bevel - without removing the chisel from the jig, turn it over and look at the marks. If the set-up is true and will gridn the chisel straight across, you should see the marks go straight across the bevel, and they should be of equal width from the right to left on the tool's bevel. If not, slightly tap the handle or the blade of the chisel to skew it slightly and correct the angle. Repeat (you can add some magic marker to the bevel if you've got too many marks to tell the latest adjustment from the earlier ones).

I use this procedure every time I wish to gridn the whole bevel of a tool - it works like a charm, and no squares, rules, or other measurements are involved.

The nice thing about your approach is that it will compensate for chisels that do not have parallel sides, since the jigs are assuming the sides are not out of whack. Not all chisels are created the same!

Do you blacken the tools beveled face with a magic marker to see the scratch marks easier?

[Mark Koury]

What I did was work the shoulder that the blade rests against. I filed a hollow at the center of this shoulder and then could easily touch-up the front and back ends of the shoulder to bring the blade to a square grind.

[Kirk Howard]

Alright, back at it.

The picts should show the latest effort. Coloring the iron with a marker and rubbing it on the wheel with just enough effort to make something happen.

What is confusing to me is the pattern on the grinding wheel--darker on the left side. I think the plan is to call Tormek on Monday and tell them I'm going to file away at the square jig until I can get a square grind, but I'm going to want them to send me another jig. That's all it can be, right? The jig?

Until then I'll eyeball the thing.

Anyway, on the bright side there's an old tool and antique show on the Denton square tomorrow. We don't get too many of those around here. Plus it's raining! Only the hard core will be out and about.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Hopefully I can close the loop on Monday.

[Eddie Darby]

When you dragged the tool across the stone, *if* you went from left to right, then the magic marker would all be scraped off by mid-stone, so it should be lighter on the right-hand side.

Try going the other direction next time.

When reading this thread I was happy to hear about the lengths that the folks at Tormek went to to see things right! You don't see that on the price tag!

[David Keller NC]

"Do you blacken the tools beveled face with a magic marker to see the scratch marks easier?"

Yeah, that's the idea. I don't do it anymore because I've gotten enough practice that I can distinguish the scratch-marks and make an adjustment. But dying the face of an edge to be ground is a handy trick, and an old one (pretty common among experienced machinists).

[David Keller NC]

Alright, back at it.

The picts should show the latest effort. Coloring the iron with a marker and rubbing it on the wheel with just enough effort to make something happen.

What is confusing to me is the pattern on the grinding wheel--darker on the left side. I think the plan is to call Tormek on Monday and tell them I'm going to file away at the square jig until I can get a square grind, but I'm going to want them to send me another jig. That's all it can be, right? The jig?

Until then I'll eyeball the thing.

Anyway, on the bright side there's an old tool and antique show on the Denton square tomorrow. We don't get too many of those around here. Plus it's raining! Only the hard core will be out and about.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Hopefully I can close the loop on Monday.

What you're showing is exactly what I'm talking about. Your plane balde may be square in the jig, but the bevel is not square to the stone's face. That's appropriate if you're trying to take off more metal on one side of the iron to make the bevel more perpendicular to the iron's sides. If not, simply tap lightly with a bronze hammer on one side of the blade to change the orientation.

[Jeff Farris]

Kirk,

Eddie is exactly right. Moving the tool right to left isn't going to be an accurate test. Roll the stone, and you'll get a better picture.

However, I personally don't rely on this type of visual, non-moving inspection for much. There are so many factors involved. Get it close, grind until you have bevel and then check it.

[Kirk Howard]

Jeff,
OK, done. Nothing new really. However, as a few previous posters suggested I moved the irons out of square related to the jig and the results were acceptable. I rotated the non-sharpened end of the iron just slightly to the right.

While this works, it is not optimal and takes too much time to set up for me, and I would like to try a new jig. So when I get a chance I'll call customer service--just too busy so far this week.

Thanks for your interest.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Any resolution on this angle thing for chisels?

I've had the same issue for a few years with my Tormek. I dealt with it by moving the chisel in the jig until I got an even grind, but I always thought that this was a pretty odd way to get accuracy out of a tool that is designed around accuracy.

I've checked all the alignment issues between the wheel and the support bar, the squareness of the chisel sides and tip as well as tweaked the angle until I get water running up the blade at an even angle. No matter what I do, I can't get an even grind unless I treat the alignment edge in the jig as though it does not exist.

[Jeff Farris]

Bob,

If you've been dealing with this for years, then I am going to assume you have the older style jig (SVH-60). This tech bulletin I wrote several years ago should help with that one.

http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/squareedgeweb.pdf

As explained in the PDF, the trick with the SVH-60 is to "tweak" the pressure on the two clamps, rather than angling the tool in the holder.

[Doug Shannon]

I've got a recent T3 and what I'm finding is that there is enough slop in the Universal Support mounts that it need careful adjustment to get it to grind square. Slight pressure on the US arm with the non-micro adjust side locknut loosened can gives me a adjustment that I square up using the grind marks on the tool. Before I realised this I created a few super sharp skew chisels...

It may be that my T3 is out of spec and needs returning but I'm getting good results with a little bit of care.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Bob,

If you've been dealing with this for years, then I am going to assume you have the older style jig (SVH-60). This tech bulletin I wrote several years ago should help with that one.

http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/squareedgeweb.pdf

As explained in the PDF, the trick with the SVH-60 is to "tweak" the pressure on the two clamps, rather than angling the tool in the holder.

I bought the Tormek in 2005 (I think), the jig came with it at the time, but I must have tossed the box. So, I think it is a SVH-60. Thanks for the link.

I sort of intuitively thought that tweaking the pressure might be an option, but never followed that route beyond wonderment. I'll give the suggestions a try. Thanks, Jeff.

...Bob