This Should Create Some Flack [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

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Bill Stevener

12-31-2007, 11:52 AM

Bob Hallowell

12-31-2007, 11:56 AM

Beautiful bowl Bill, But how do you use the skew to hollow? do you use it as a scraper?

Bob

Marvin Hasenak

12-31-2007, 12:05 PM

That is a beauty, and it proves you need to know your tools. I do not own a bowl gouge, I use a roughing gouge and a round nose scraper. When I learned how to use a lathe there wasn't all of these specialty tools, got along without them all of those years see no "need" for buying them now. This is a hobby so a little extra time doesn't matter.

Marvin

Christopher K. Hartley

12-31-2007, 12:09 PM

Point well made Bill! Great looking bowl! I've made some with only a scraper.:)

Mike Vickery

12-31-2007, 12:25 PM

All right I will bite and be the first one to give you a little bit of flack.
I agree that a bowl gouge is not needed to turn a bowl.
I have no problem with people using what ever tool they want to turn any project with. I think most experienced turners would be fine using most tools. Begginers though can get hurt trying to do it.
I know that you are an experienced turner though and I fully support your right to use any tool you want to turn with.
By the way nice looking bowl.

Bernie Weishapl

12-31-2007, 12:40 PM

Nice looking bowl Bill. Can't argue the fact about using any tools to make a bowl. My only comment to that would be use the right tools for the job. My granddad always told me that when he was teaching me woodworking. He said you can drive a nail into a expensive china hutch you are building with a sledge hammer. Sure ya can, but wouldn't it be better to drive it in with a smaller one that is right for the job. Just my humble opinion.

Jim Becker

12-31-2007, 12:43 PM

Bill, I think that Mike gives some good advise...we all need to be careful with the advise we give about the techniques we prefer. In the beginning, it's very important that folks learn the techniques that are considered safest including tool choice. Everyone can then experiment with alternatives once they have gained the expertise and control that will help them avoid nasty situations that lack of experience could prove tragic.

But on a lighter note, that's a beautiful bowl!

Raymond Overman

12-31-2007, 12:55 PM

First off Bill, it's a very nice looking bowl. Classic shape, nice finish and good balance in the heart wood and sap wood.

In response to your tool use, the question is why? Why use a skew or worse yet, a roughing gouge, that isn't made to do the job and is potentially unsafe?

Early in my career as a woodturner, I too used a roughing gouge and skew to hollow a hefty vase. I ended up breaking the gouge at the tang due to the pressures that the cuts put on it. I also threw a chunk of pecan off the lathe after a particularly bad catch with the skew and ended up with seven stitches due to not using the proper tool.

If you're not able to afford a <$40 unhandled bowl gouge, your other safe option is to make a boring bar. They can usually be made for less than $15 with easily available parts. 5/8" cold roll steel bars from a big box are less than $10 and will usually fit through the headstock of some #2MT for drilling. WT Tool and Enco sell 1/4" square by 2 1/2" bits for around $2.50-$2.75. The 5/8" bar will take a lot more stress when hanging over the tool rest than the tang of a rounded skew. The 1/4" bit is a lot less grabby than the skew too.

Steve Schlumpf

12-31-2007, 1:15 PM

Now, far be it that I am promoting the use of roughing gouges to be used in bowl turning, but I will say and agree that a bowl gouge is not always necessary.

Bill - first off - that's a beautiful bowl!

I will agree with you that bowls can be turned using various tools and have no problem stating such - as long as the hazards of misuse of that tool are also stated.

Bonnie Campbell

12-31-2007, 1:28 PM

Not having known any different when I started turning.... I used a small skew to turn little bowls. It worked, but could be a bit scary at times :eek: The skew was the only chisel I could keep sharp :o

Bob Hampton

12-31-2007, 1:32 PM

ok my turn...lol
years ago when i was a newbie I used that tool to do a shallow bowl..not being educated yet on turning tools it was a rough ride to say the least...lots of catches and ducking...and had a few to many dents in the garage wall!
I soon learned what a bowel gouge was for and the scraper...wore out at least 2 bowl gouges learning to sharpen right ....since my last one has got to the point that it is no longer usable and the shop budget looks like a dust bowel from the 30's I have had to turn to alternative methods...IE the homemade stuff!
most of the time now when i turn a bowl I use a piece of 1/2" metal lathe cutter bar's...guess they call this an oland tool...found that out after i made it from some bar a friend gave me ....works ecellent both inside and out of bowls and gives a nice smooth surface on the inside ....it takes a bit of learning to find the sweet spot ..but once u do ...i bet u dont go back to the bowl gouge ..i pay $4.00 for these bars and stick them in a piece of pipe of the right diameter that has a set screw to hold the bar ...there cheap and last a long time ....so there are alot of other alternatives to the bowl gouge out there.

Bob

Ben Gastfriend

12-31-2007, 4:05 PM

I really like the bowl, not sure I'd even pick up my skew till I'm almost finished a bowl, I'd end up bending it in half.

Ben Gastfriend

12-31-2007, 4:06 PM

I must also comment on the lovely background... lovely!:D

Scott Donley

12-31-2007, 5:35 PM

Great bowl Bill ! My very first turning was done with a Stanley bench chisel, it "worked". the only tool I had at the time. I sure would not recommend to anyone else to learn with :o I do think the radius skew is a lot more fogiving than a standard skew. Again, Great job on the bowl.

Jude Kingery

12-31-2007, 5:45 PM

Bill, beautiful job! I'd have to say I prefer the bowl gouge. We had one when I was a kid and learned with that for bowls. Didn't have the fingernail grind I prefer today, but it wasn't a spindal gouge, it was a true bowl gouge and I find it my most preferred tool. But then I mostly do bowls. Nice discussion all the same! And very nice bowl you did regardless of what you used to accomplish this piece! Happy New Year! Jude

Tom Sherman

12-31-2007, 6:23 PM

Bill I think your bowl is Awesome, the fact that you've turned it with a skew is a testament to your skill and talent. Unfortunately I do not yet possess such skills and talent, and prefer to use bowl gouges for my bowls.

Bruce Shiverdecker

12-31-2007, 8:10 PM

No arguement from me, Bill. Doing that with a radial skew is awesome.

I BOW to your expertise!!!!!!!

Bruce

robert hainstock

12-31-2007, 8:30 PM

I turned my first bowl in 1954. There were no bowl gauges nor wsa there much of anything else. I looked at it a few days ago, and it has some obvious catches. But it is very thin, and that ois most likely why I didn't remove them. Besides it was for my future MIL. I agree with Steve, We should not promote unsafe practice in the shop. Although I'm not sure you did. :confused:
Bob

Curt Fuller

12-31-2007, 11:06 PM

Bill, you old troublemaker;)! I'm never disappointed by what you can do with any tool. And this beauty of a bowl is no exception. This topic makes me wonder when it was and why it was that the gouge evolved into 3 different tools, the bowl gouge, spindle gouge, and roughing gouge. And those 3 have different branches in their own family trees it you start naming them by the type of grind. Once a person gets good at turning, they can make just about any tool work and most find one they like better than others and do more with it. There's only one real concern I have when it comes to gouges. That's those big wide roughing gouges that are made with a skinny little tang that goes into the handle. I've never broken one but I've seen pictures and read scary accounts on almost every woodturning forum about those things shattering when someone has bitten off more than they can handle trying to rough a bowl. That in my opinion is a tool that should be named "Spindle Roughing Gouge" and be stamped with a warning about using it for anything else.

Whether you ever buy a thing from them or not, everyone should get the Craftsupplies catalog and read the section about tools and safety. In fact, here it is........

David Wilhelm

12-31-2007, 11:34 PM

Love the bowl, Can we get a pic of the tool? :). I'd like to throw in that no tool should be considered safe if you are a beginner not even sand paper. A lathe is not a toy. Be very careful. Many a bowl were turned with a spoon gouge on a pedal lathe out of green wood. I've got a huge bowl my great grandfather turned that way complete with cracks. Just wish I had the old lathe and tools.

Marvin Hasenak

01-01-2008, 1:42 AM

I'd like to throw in that no tool should be considered safe if you are a beginner not even sand paper. A lathe is not a toy. Be very careful.

I see a lot of beginners on a callmaking website that really need to have that made into a warning sign. There are some that have become proficient at making call and then think they know how to use a lathe. When in reality they are haven't even made it pass the beginners stage of knowing how to use a lathe. Then when they have a problem or have accident they blame the equipment instead of their lack of experience.

Marvin

Bill Stevener

01-01-2008, 1:52 PM

I have noticed in several posts this past year and most recently in a post that bowl gouges are not needed to turn bowls.
Now, far be it that I am promoting the use of roughing gouges to be used in bowl turning, but I will say and agree that a bowl gouge is not always necessary.

OK, some very fine replies to my post have been noted.
First off, thank you for the kind words for the bowl.

Now for a bit of flack from my end!! Some should reed my post 3 times, before making a statement.

Post # 6 My only comment to that would be use the right tools for the job.
Well, how do you know the skew was not the right tool.
The burl blank was air dried for over 10 years and about as hard as the rock the bowl sits on. If one can turn a bowl like the one shown, from a burl, as hard as the wood was, with a bowl gouge and you think that is the right tool, I would like to see it.

Post # 7 Bill, I think that Mike gives some good advise...we all need to be careful with the advise we give about the techniques we prefer.
Personally, I don't think I gave any advice to anyone, as well as, never stated what techniques I prefer.

Post # 8 In response to your tool use, the question is why? Why use a skew or worse yet, a roughing gouge, that isn't made to do the job and is potentially unsafe?
Where did you find, anyplace in my post, that I used a roughing gouge?? I think I explained why the skew was used above.

Early in my career as a woodturner, I too used a roughing gouge and skew to hollow a hefty vase. I ended up breaking the gouge at the tang due to the pressures that the cuts put on it. I also threw a chunk of pecan off the lathe after a particularly bad catch with the skew and ended up with seven stitches due to not using the proper tool.
Lack of education and or experience on your part does not make others a dummy.
By the way, "woodturner" is two words, wood turner, or wood-turner.

Post # 9 I will agree with you that bowls can be turned using various tools and have no problem stating such - as long as the hazards of misuse of that tool are also stated.
The hazards of misuse of a tool are another subject, nothing in my post reflects any misuse of a tool. Just the one that was the tool of choice. It is up to the turner to receive proper instruction on the use of turning tools and with experience select the tool of his choice. I did not tell anyone what tool to use!

Post # 21
Let the truth be known.:)

In closing, the photo below shows some other turnings I did with only a skew. Some are Blood Wood, others are Red Heart, Yellow Heart and Purple Heart. Try turning them with a bowl gouge.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m109/nicebill/Group.jpg

Raymond Overman

01-01-2008, 5:29 PM

Post # 8 In response to your tool use, the question is why? Why use a skew or worse yet, a roughing gouge, that isn't made to do the job and is potentially unsafe?
Where did you find, anyplace in my post, that I used a roughing gouge?? I think I explained why the skew was used above.

Early in my career as a woodturner, I too used a roughing gouge and skew to hollow a hefty vase. I ended up breaking the gouge at the tang due to the pressures that the cuts put on it. I also threw a chunk of pecan off the lathe after a particularly bad catch with the skew and ended up with seven stitches due to not using the proper tool.
Lack of education and or experience on your part does not make others a dummy.
By the way, "woodturner" is two words, wood turner, or wood-turner.

I didn't say you used a roughing gouge. It was mentioned in another post and I was commenting towards that remark. Sorry for your mis-understanding. However, I stand by my post that the skew is not a scraper even though it is sometimes used as one. I even use a skew sometimes for light scraping cuts to help define curves. Using one in the place of a bowl gouge, a thick scraper, or a boring bar that is more suited for the purpose and extending it off of a tool rest more than a few inches is dangerous.

If you feel that you are able to do it with precision and safety in your shop, I'm not here to change your mind. However, there are turners here that don't have your experience who may wish to emulate your technique and I want to make sure they are aware of what they are potentially getting into. I could use a $2 screwdriver to hollow a vase but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

At no time did I call anyone a dummy. I am also sure that grammar and spelling are not that important in an Internet debate, however, I will point out that a fairly popular national association accepts my spelling. Maybe you should correct them too. They can change their banner and logo to the correct spelling.

The American Association of Woodturners (http://www.woodturner.org/)

Andy Hoyt

01-01-2008, 6:08 PM

Your forecast was correct, Bill. This thread did create some flack, as obviously intended.

Be careful folks.

Allen Neighbors

01-01-2008, 9:56 PM

Bill, even with all the flack, that's still one absolutely beautiful bowl; and the background is too! The fact that it was turned with a radius skew, makes it even more so. Nice Coffee Mills, too, btw! (Wish I could watch you turn sometime.)
I haven't got the skill to do that, but I'm still practicing!
Congratulations on some exceptional work.

Dick Strauss

01-02-2008, 12:32 AM

Bill,
I admire your beautiful work and like the fact that you challenge the status quo.

I do think the last pieces (coffee mills) could be done with a bowl gouge without issue. I don't see any special features/shapes that would prevent me from using a BG. Possibly I would have to do more sanding by relying solely on the BG but that's the only issue I see (maybe I need some glasses:)).

Nice work,
Dick

Bruce Shiverdecker

01-02-2008, 2:33 AM

As some of you may know. I teach turning. One of the things I do is showsome of the capibilities of different tools. If the tool will do the job safely, there is no reason not to use it I don't limit my imagination and if you look at some of the turning books, you will find that authors use tools in a non-standard manner. As I said before - just make sure that it is SAFE!

Bruce