Electrolysis - Think I need help...

[John Dykes]

Thom has been outbidding me on all the good planes, but I got a perfectly nasty Type 13 #5 - all parts, no cracks, or blemishes of any kind. Once cleaned will be a show piece - though I'm only looking for users ($20). Very happy with it...

That said - this is my first real restoration - and I'm struggling w/ the electrolysis part. I realize many here like the citric acid route - but I'm taking my first whack w/ electrolysis.

I get the concepts - and I've made a bucket w/ 4 rebar around the perimeter. But I tried last night - and i don't see any bubbles. And again this morning - no bubbles. I'm getting 15v with power applied at the rebar and the wire hanging into the water - but no bubbles. I don't have any "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" - all I could find is "Arm and Hammer Activated Baking Soda Detergent" (from the Safeway in the laundry shelves) which contains sodium carbonate - or says so on the side.

This morning - I used a car battery into the bucket. No bubbles. I hooked the trickle charger to the batter and into the bucket - still no bubbles. Again - I get 15v going into the water (measured from the hanger right above the water, and a rebar anode right above the water).

They say it ain't rocket science, but apparently I'm missing something (the detergent??)... I'm just doing the frog, or the blade, or the chip breaker - maybe they aren't big enough for lots of bubbles?

- jbd

[John Dykes]

It might be working. After 2 hrs - the frog is covered in the expect black coating. I think the parts are so small that the bubbles are tiny and showing up as soap suds. I was expecting a bit more vigorous action...

- jbd

[Brian Hale]

I've had good luck with baking soda and the bubbles are quite obvious as long the part and the electrode are pretty close together, about 1" or so. The water should begin to get dirty pretty quick.

Is your battery charger showing a charge? Is it 10 amp charger?

This is what my setup looks like for small parts....

Brian :)

[Dan Boschen]

John-
I believe the detergent is the problem. With washing soda, I've had small parts fizz like crazy and clean well. I use a 12V battery charger with anywhere from 2A to 10A of current flow with 6 inches of separation between the part and anode. Look at Wal-Mart for the Washing Soda or any other laundry detergent booster (check the label for sodium carbonate content) I've also heard you can get sodium carbonate at a hot tub supply store. I've used citric acid for years and will continue so for plated or non-steel/iron items, but electrolysis is the only way to go for steel/iron.

Dan Boschen
Amarillo, TX

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Plain old baking soda works.
So too washing soda

The tool is hooked up to the negative ( If I recall correctly) and the annode is the positive. It's best if the annode goes all the way around the tool sides and bottom if you can.

Use a trickle charger not a battery. Trickle chargers are S-L-O-W but slow is good.

[David Bodkin]

I was never able to find any washing soda either. Instead I used Baking Soda and it worked fine. If you have a Multimeter put it in the circuit to measure the current. You can move the stuff around in the bucket until you get your desired current and then pull the multimeter out of the circuit.

[Mark Stutz]

I don't have any idea whether the detergent will have an effect or not, as I've only used the washing soda. The bubbles are very tiny. I usually turn up the charger to max to start it...a few seconds...then to the very lowest setting, and let it cook. I've also found that you need to make sure there is no rust on the rebar. I put a wire bruch on the grinding wheel and "polished" them...worked much better after that.

Mark

[Corvin Alstot]

Washing soda--sodium carbonate--is in the same family as baking soda. It
has just been processed differently. It is much more caustic/alkaline, with
a pH of 11, but baking soda should work.

I think you could locate the rebar closer to the object which should raise
the reaction and cleaning, just make sure the object and the rebar do not
touch. Good luck and be safe.

[Wilbur Pan]

Yay! Time to whip out the old bachelor's degree in chemistry!

Washing soda is Na2CO3. Baking soda is NaHCO3. The reason washing soda gives you more bubbly action during electrolysis is that for the same amount* of either substance, there are more ions in solution compared to baking soda, allowing more current to flow. This speeds up the rate of rust removal.

Baking soda can be used for electrolysis, but it just takes longer, and you won't get that satisfying bubbly rust water action. You could speed things up by jacking up the voltage, but it's better just to give the process the time it needs. You also might consider throwing more baking soda into the solution.

One other thing -- after going back and checking your original post, it looks like you are using laundry detergent ("Arm and Hammer Activated Baking Soda Detergent") with some sodium carbonate in it, so the amount of ions in your solution is even smaller than you might think. You may be better off getting a box of plain old baking soda instead of the stuff you are using.

*Actually, this would be molar equivalents of Na2CO3 and NaHCO3, not weight, but that only matters to us chemistry geeks. ;)

[Zahid Naqvi]

Besides all the advice given above, keep an eye on the current being drawn, if you are in the 5-10 amp range the electrolysis is going at good pace. I suppose you are know about the importance of good ventilation, I think it produces a gas which is either toxic or combustible. Should be easy to verify though. This is why I now use citric acid, equally good, but the by products are safe.

[Tom Veatch]

... I think it produces a gas which is either toxic or combustible. Should be easy to verify though. This is why I now use citric acid, equally good, but the by products are safe.

The product of electrolysis of water is Hydrogen and Oxygen gas. Whether you use Citric acid or washing soda doesn't matter, you still get Hydrogen and Oxygen. You might also get some nasty byproducts dissolved in the water bath but that's primarily dependent on the material used as the sacrificial electrode. Stainless steel can be particularly bad in that respect.

On the scale this is being done, explosive recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen is simply not a problem. There's not enough produced in an operation of this type to be a concern, and even if left running for an excessive length of time in a closed room, you're not going to be able to confine the hydrogen gas long enough to build up an explosive concentration. Hydrogen is very difficult to confine. A normal room has more than enough leakage to allow it to escape as rapidly as it's being produced.

[George Sanders]

I've had excellent results with arm & hammer laundry soda. I use a 5 gal. bucket with a sacrifice rod of flat strap iron. I use a small trickle charger and set it up outdoors on the patio. I have a couple of Disston saws that I can now read the embossing on.
I also used a plastic tote box and de-rusted a cast iron table saw top. Had great results so far.

[Thom Sturgill]

Thom has been outbidding me on all the good planes,
- jbd
Not Me! :o
I only got so many because I was the ONLY bid on three of them...

[M Toupin]

John,
This electrolysis stuff isn't that difficult, don't over think it. Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will work fine if you can't find sodium carbonate (washing soda). I've done a lot of electrolysis and used both baking soda and washing soda. To be honest, I can't tell the difference in the rust removal times. sodium carbonate seems to speed the removal of paint which may or may not be due to the increased PH.

Sodium carbonate goes by a few other names; #1-ARM & HAMMER Super Washing soda is sodium carbonate. #2-Hot tub PH increaser is also 100% sodium carbonate. #3-Soda ash, often used in pools, is also sodium carbonate. Same animal, different name. manufacturers put another name and fancy label on it to sell it to the various consumers. the price varies too, funny when you consider it's the same thing!

Now, if you really have your heart set on using sodium carbonate and you can't find it locally then you can make it yourself. Spread sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) onto a cookie sheet and bake it in the oven at a little over 300 degrees for an hour or so it will drive away a water and CO2 molecule thus making sodium carbonate (washing soda). At temperatures above 300o Fahrenheit, sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) decomposes into sodium carbonate, water, and carbon dioxide. 2NaHCO3 -> Na2Co3 + H20 + CO2.

Bottom line - don't get wrapped around the axle here, if you don't have sodium carbonate handy use the sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) out of the frige.

The other thing you need is a power source. Most folks use a battery charger, but anything that puts out DC power will work. If you're using a battery charger there's two types. The older type, or dumb charger, just puts out the rated power. Some of the newer ones have a sensing circuit in them that only allows power to flow when there is a solid connection to eliminate reverse charging etc. (it's a bit more complicated than that, but for our purposes that's a fair explanation). The "smart" chargers can be used, you just need to trick them into thinking they’re charging a battery. Putting a old battery in series will do this.

Remember to hook the NEGATIVE lead to your piece and the positive to your sacrificial anodes. It's important to have a good connection on your piece, sand or grind off any old paint ect from the place you hook your lead to. Electrolysis is a "line of sight" type cleaning. You will have to rotate your parts to get full coverage. A bucket with several anodes around the sides works better than a single anode on one side. Another thing folks often neglect is keeping the anodes clean. Clean anodes work much better than dirty anodes, clean them every day, or even twice a day.

Once you put power to the setup you should see tiny bubbles, the higher the current the more bubbles you'll see. We're not talking a full boil here, just little tiny bubbles. The current/amp level is up to you. The higher the current and amps the quicker the reaction. I use a 12v battery charger set for 20a and it works fine. I've heard of folks using those little .5a wall charger deals and even know a guy who uses his arc welder set for about 50amps. All work, some quicker than others. After a while you'll start to see the piece becoming black were the cleaning is taking place. Thick rust takes longer than thin stuff obviously. Leave the piece in until it's completely done, this might take a few hours for something small with very minor rust to several days or more for something with thick rust scale. Pull the piece out occasionally to check it, scrub it down with a wire brush to remove the scale and black coating and see how it's coming. If it's not satisfactory send it back for another treatment. You'll notice the piece will have a grayish tint when your done scrubbing it, no it will never get to a bright shiny finish. There is no set length of time, you can't over clean a part by leaving it in too long. Once it’s done scrub it down with a wire brush while running it under hot water. Dry it quickly when you’re done as it will flash rust before your eyes. The hot water will heat the item and help dry it quickly and prevent the rusting. A bit of compressed air helps also.

I'd recommend doing all this outside, though there really is no explosion danger as some have suggested. I use a 30 tub, 4 anodes on each side and 12v at 20a. I've tried to light the off gas with no luck. You’d really have to make an effort to concentrate enough hydrogen to get a flame, much less an explosion. Don't worry about grandpa waking by with a cigarette and blowing the place up.

Mike