Metal poisoning ?

[Chuck Lenz]

I'm going to post this thread because it's kind of woodworking related. This week I decided I was going to build a metal benchtop stand for a router table I'm puting together. I used a hacksaw and a 1" wide belt sander to clean the edges up. Later that day I developed a numb tip of the tongue and progressing to what I would call a migrain headache and I'm just starting to get over it now after 2 days. My vision is still abit off but the headache is gone so far after this morning. I'm not sure if it was caused from metal dust or a migrain. Has anyone heard of metal poisoning from sanding metal like this ? I know I should of known better, when useing the sander I could taste metal. Next time I'll definately use a empty shop vac while sanding

[Gary Keedwell]

I have been around machine shops a good part of my life and never heard of that. There is one metal, can't think if it now, it is like the exotic of metals, but I don't think you used that in your application.
Garyu

[David G Baker]

I was a polisher grinder for FMC in Sacramento when I was a kid. That was prior to safety equipment requirements. I never experienced a toxic reaction but I only did it for around 6 months. The grinding media was considerably more toxic at the time due to asbestos in the media.
I have heard of galvanized metal grinding, cutting and welding causing flu like symptoms.
Everyone's tolerances are different. A mask is recommended.
I love the smell of steel/iron when it is being ground or cut but know it can get a person if not careful. I try to do most of my heavy grinding/sanding outdoors.

[Tom Veatch]

... I'm not sure if it was caused from metal dust or a migrain. Has anyone heard of metal poisoning from sanding metal like this ?...

There are known, usually temporary effects from breathing zinc fumes when welding galvanized steel, but I'm not familar with any problems caused by exposure to powdered steel - assuming you were using steel.

I use flap disks on angle grinders fairly frequently to debur, flatten or grind out weld beads, prepare edges for welding, etc. and haven't had any difficulties. Of course, different people react differently and what causes you a problem might not affect me, and vice versa.

[Dale Johnson]

was the metal galvanized? if so you could have had a reaction to the zinc, cadmium or any of the other toxic elements used in the coating. it doesn't have to be fumes from welding, the dust is just as bad. this being a small world, i was a welder for fmc in fridley for 28 years. sickest i ever got was from welding galvanized catch pans for one of the launchers. worst headache ever. don't know if it is an old wives tale, but they taught us in welding school that you should drink a lot of milk to counter the effects of the zinc. side note, they also taught that the best way to work anything galvanized was to get someone else to do it.
dale

[Chuck Lenz]

I forgot to mention that the metal wasn't coated other than the blueish coating. Non galvanized. It was a real fine powder though, the sanding belt was geting pretty wore out. Who knows whats going on, I have been sanding furniture on and off for many years without any type of dust collection and air filtration in a enclosed shop till recently, and I smoke. I'm starting to get up there in age and maybe all that careless work is starting to catch up to me. My days of working in the shop may be over if I don't improve.

[Matt Meiser]

Zinc poisoning is suppoed to be like having the flu. Apparently zinc is an intestinal irritant. I've heard the milk thing too. It certainly won't hurt you to try unless you are lactose intolerant. I'd get to a doctor though after having it happen twice.

Any idea what the coating is?

[Bruce Page]

You should probably go see a doctor. Your symptoms might be related to the grinding or it could be something else entirely.
I worked in machine shops a good part of my life without any reaction to metal dust but each of us is different.

[David G Baker]

Dale,
I was lucky to get away from the grinding and polishing at FMC, a large percentage of the career grinder/polishers died from cancer prior to reaching the age of 60. When I left FMC I went to work for the Southern Pacific Rail Road, almost didn't get hired because my lungs had a lot of areas that looked like I had TB due to the unprotected breathing of grinding dust.
I too have heard of the milk thing associated with galvanized metal work but do not know if it works. I am always very careful around galvanized metal because of all of the scare stories when I was young.

[Gary Keedwell]

LOL Well, now a days I do wear eyeglasses when I do my grinding. Back thirty years ago nobody wore eye protection in the machine shop. I remember going to eye doctor to have something small removed from my eye. Doctor said that I have had alot of things inbedded in my eyes in the past. I asked him how he knew and he said he could see all the scars.
Still, it took a job change and company rules to use glasses. Alot of guys only put them on when they saw the boss coming. I'm getting better myself. Just within the year I purchased Festool sander and vacuum.
You have to remember that safety is relatively new to our culture.
Between, lawyers, OSHA, insurance companies we have in the last 30 years or so have started to make safety awareness an every day issue.
Gary
.

[Jerry Allen]

Chuck,
I cut and grind a lot of steel in my shop. I never get any symptoms like that.
However, sometimes I do get a strange taste, something like nose spray, in my mouth. A simple mask works well and goggles make good sense. Not that I always use them, or how would I know what it tastes like?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

No.
The particulate size isn't small enough to pass through the lungs. Most metals are fairly non reactive in contact with humans.
The metals in question are either steel or aluminum and they aren't going to do that for sure.

There is a metal vapor toxicity issue but you really gotta get the metals past their melt point by a fair bit to liberate enough metals to contaminate the air. You need an overheated smelting crucible in an enclosed space.

I rather suspect you have a migraine. Either that or too much Egg Nog

[David G Baker]

My grinding and polishing work was done in the early 60's. Everyone in the shop was required to wear safety glasses but breathing protection was nonexistent.
Chuck,
Please keep us updated on your condition. I hope it was something that was just passing through and won't reappear.

[Charles Wiggins]

I'm going to post this thread because it's kind of woodworking related. This week I decided I was going to build a metal benchtop stand for a router table I'm puting together. I used a hacksaw and a 1" wide belt sander to clean the edges up. Later that day I developed a numb tip of the tongue and progressing to what I would call a migrain headache and I'm just starting to get over it now after 2 days. My vision is still abit off but the headache is gone so far after this morning. I'm not sure if it was caused from metal dust or a migrain. Has anyone heard of metal poisoning from sanding metal like this ? I know I should of known better, when useing the sander I could taste metal. Next time I'll definately use a empty shop vac while sanding

It's definitely possible. I had a friend in college who had to discontinue working in cuprous (copper based) metals like brass and bronze because he was allergic to the dust and fumes. He took up ceramics instead. You might consider wearing a respirator while sanding and see if that helps.

[Paul Atkins]

Don't breath colbalt dust from tool bits and drills! Also men can get too much iron in their system and breathing iron dust will get it into your system as it will oxidize (rust). At least this is what I've been told. I'm not a doctor or play one on T.V.

[Chris Padilla]

Paul,

This thread is almost a year old...fyi.

[dan lemkin]

I would be hesitant to draw a causal relationship between metal exposure and your neurologic symptoms. Assuming that there is no unexpected toxic material in the metal/coating you were grinding, zinc, iron, would likely not cause the acute neuro symptoms you describe. Although it is tempting given the temporal relationship, it may be conincidental.

Without a history of recurrent or complex headaches, it is not reasonable to diagnose yourself with migraines. Of all the likely causes, I would expect the noise and vibrations of the sanding process to be the most likely cause of headache.

The metal dust, if significant enough to produce neurological symptoms would also likely cause respiratory symptoms from direct irritation of your respiratory tree.

You are describing vision (cranial nerve II) and tongue (CN XII) symptoms. Combined with headache can be significant. The most conservative thing to recomend is follow up with your doctor for evaluation. Not to scare you... but some of the causes are serious...

Berry aneurysms are not uncommon (1/1000 people annually) and can present with sentinal headaches, neuro findings, and if untreated or undiagnosed can lead to future severe hemorrhage and death.

(It is my job as an ED doc to suspect the worst case scenerio... but you dont want to be on the wrong side of one of these diagnoses...)

LEGAL DISCLAIMER PROMPTED BY HUGE NUMBERS OF HUNGRY MEDMAL LAWYERS: This information is limited in scope, and without a full medical evaluation should not be relied upon as medical advice. Please see your doctor for further evaluation of your symptoms.

[John Keeton]

Paul,

This thread is almost a year old...fyi.
Curiously, this thread was posted in December 2007, and Chuck Lenz has not posted since January 28, 2008. Does anyone know about him and his condition?

[dan lemkin]

wow - glossed over that... hope all is well.

[harry strasil]

The Worst metals are Berylium, Cadmium, and Zinc fumes and can KILL you with little exposure. Galvanize is just a zinc coating and can also KILL. Some metals build up in your system. With Cadmium usually the gold colored coating on bolts etc. you will get sick and possibly pass out, then come to and feel fine, then just drop over dead. Most metal dust is not good for you, what it does is build up on the lining of your lungs and inhibit the lungs from absorbing oxygen. In reality your health is your responsibility, the better you take care of it, the longer you will live and the better your health. Carbon Monoxide is another nasty KILLER, usually the first symptom is a headache, like with zinc fume fever.

I was a Blacksmith, Welder and Machinist for 55 years and the worst experience I had was with farm equipment that had chemicals sprayed on it. Paint and metals are porous and will absorb the chemicals. You might be able to drink it and just get sick, but when you heat it and turn it into a gas, ITS LEATHAL. I have been extremely LUCKY.

[harry strasil]

Hemochromatosis, I have this,

http://www.irondisorders.org/Disorders/Hemochromatosis.asp

[John Keeton]

Harry, so what do you do to get your body to excrete the iron - what is the treatment and how are you doing with this condition?

[Jim Becker]

Curiously, this thread was posted in December 2007, and Chuck Lenz has not posted since January 28, 2008. Does anyone know about him and his condition?

The OP is no longer an SMC member.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Paul Atkins]

I guess I better pay attention to the dates - somehow December just stood out. Not sure how I got that far back. Anyway still good area of concern and reminder.

[harry strasil]

John, the normal procedure for really bad cases is an old procedure, Blood letting.

I have kept mine in check unknowingly by donating blood regularly, I am working on my 10th gallon to the Red Cross. I didn't even know I had it till about a year and a half ago, when I was getting my Red Cross physical and the nurse told me I was a candidate for a new procedure where they take out 2 pints of blood and seperate the red cells from the white and then put the white ones back. I had a reaction to that procedure, so I won't let them do it again.

My affliction is a mild case, so its not life threatening.

[dan lemkin]

Just so people don't get confused... Hemochromatosis is an inherited disorder and not related to metal/iron exposure or aspiration. Also, the ACUTE toxic effects of metal exposure are (from what I have found) exclusively associated with vaporized metal in welding processes, not from grinding or sanding. It is postulated that the vaporization and then condensation of very small metal particles permits them to be readily inhaled. Long term exposure to metals like lead, mercury, cadmium, other heavy metals can result in all kinds of neurological, musculoskeletal, gi, and Hematopoietic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematopoietic_stem_cells) dysfunction.

I did do some research on the metal fume fever and found several articles which explore some of the side effects. Although zinc oxide is considered a non-toxic substance, when vaporized and condensed into very small particles that are aspirated -- it is associated with the syndrome metal fume fever... This condition has been associated with short term respiratory and neurologic side effects that resolve once removed. I did not see any references to the exposure being lethal. There are few studies that suggest long term sequelae from exposure. I will attach a few that I found. Some pdfs were to large and had to be zipped as well.

[harry strasil]

I never said I contracted if from my work dan, just that I have it.

And as far as zinc poisioning not being lethal, I wish you would go to several cemetaries where old friends of mine are buried and explain that to them, and for your own sake don't grind or sand any Beryllium.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year

[dan lemkin]

So often this format facilitates unintended offense.

Please understand... my explanation was just to separate the two issues... we were discussing toxic exposures, and you added a discussion of iron related metabolic disease... I suspected that people might relate the two incorrectly.

If zinc exposure does cause death, I was unable to find medical literature to support it. (That does not mean that it does not exist, but it was not easy to find if it does) There are a lot of compounds that metal workers are exposed to- you mentioned several yourself. These are more likely to cause lethal conditions. And not to discount significant occupational exposures, but associated with more deaths than anything, is tobacco, which many in this field use. Beryllium is a different animal than zinc. Like cadmium, it has been studied and shown to cause both acute and chronic pulmonary disease and increase risks of malignancy, granulomatous pulmonary disease, and other problems.

Without knowing an individuals exposures, risks, family history, and social habits - it is impossible to objectively draw causal relationships. There is a big difference between association and causation. As you may have knowledge of these issues regarding your friends - I would not presume to comment on their deaths.

I offer these comments purely to expand general knowledge based on research I was able to find. As someone who has never suffered from these exposures or known people who have died, it is very easy for me to offer this impersonal research and comments. I apologize for not presenting my information in a manner more sensitive to the suffering you have experienced.

Sincerely wishing you a Merry Christmas, Happy New Year.
dan

[Will Blick]

Dan, you handled the situation with class, well done. It was obvious to most of us, you had no ill intentions. I fully agree, sometimes no matter how hard you try, a response on a forum like this, is often misconstrued.


For many of us, the first sign of metals in our body is the strong metallic taste on the tongue. This can happen from the simplest of things, such as using a new frying pan, often low grade. Also, strong acid foods can often leach metal from cooking pans.


It's interesting the quoted stat about metal workers not living to 60... this is often the most valuable evidence of long term effects of a foreign substance in the body. The likelihood of other coincidences is often low.... and unfortunately, these are the most sensible warning bells to respect, as most medical subjects NEVER receive millions of dollars for thorough research.


Since metals (minerals) are required for a healthy body.... i.e. zinc, iron, magnesium, etc... one would think they would be "relatively" safe in other forms of exposure. But after reading about very premature death rates of grain workers (mainly producing our foods such as cereal, breads, etc.) from grain dust inhalation, I have learned otherwise. Grains are foods we eat daily, yet, when ingested through the lungs, they seem to be as deadly as smoking cigarettes. Our industrious methods of living has not been around long enough to have predicted all these problems......its unfortunate we have to learn from the sickness and premature deaths of others....


on a brighter note, happy holidays to all! Health is Wealth!

[John Keeton]

Harry, glad your situation is controllable and that it does not cause you any significant difficulties. However, you have again proven one of my pet peeves - sometimes the medical "cure" is worse than the illness.