Where should I begin??

[Glen Blanchard]

Okay, I am a professed power tool junkie , and as a result, am probably unknown to those here who only frequent this particular forum at the Creek.

I make mainly small stuff - boxes and such - but have begun a project which is a bit larger. I have commenced making a blanket chest for LOML. I will be gluing together some panels, and as these will be larger than my norm, it raises some concerns. Basically, I am concerned about the panels not being totally flat after the glue-up, although I will be using the Festool Domino (am I allowed to mention that tool here?) to help with alignment.

As these panels will be too large for my jointer and/or planer, I may have a need for a hand plane. Now, I don't own one currently, and know next to nothing about them. Sooooo....the question becomes, what plane would be best to use on these glued-up panels? A jointer plane, I assume?? If so, which one? #7? #8? Lie-Nielson will be recommended I am sure. They make a low angle jointer plane as well I think. Additionally, how difficult is it to learn to use one of these guys?

I am lost in this world of hand tools, and would appreciate some guidance.

Thanks.

[Don C Peterson]

Prepare yourself to get more information than you really wanted...

If it's a question of planing the panels even after glue up I typically pull out the #5 sharpened with a bit of a convex curve to the blade but still set to take fairly fine shavings. Then finish with a #4 or 4 1/2 and a scraper.

The low angle jack planes from either LN or LV are great for this too. If you go that route, I would recommend buying at least one extra iron so that you can have one with the standard angle and then make one with a steeper angle for those tricky parts that want to tear out.

As for the difficulty of learning, I don't think using the planes is difficult unless you are working with difficult wood. Taking fine shavings and working with the grain are the two biggest things to keep in mind about USING the plane, but most critical and difficult part is the sharpening. If you want good results from any plane you are probably going to have to redefine what "sharp" means to you.

I'm sure there will be some who tell you to pick up a used Stanley. I'm not against that, and I have a couple myself. And I'm not trying to pick a fight, just be aware that if you don't pick one up from a reputable dealer that preps them so they are ready, you are going to spend a lot of time getting it ready, or you will suffer horrible frustration trying to use a plane that isn't tuned up. The advantage of buying a LN or LV is that they are ready out of the box except for a final honing of the iron.

BTW welcome to the Neander slope, watch your first step!

[Mike Cutler]

Glen

I've done a bit of work too large for machines once the glueup was complete.
Do everything you can to ensure that the boards are as flat, uniform and equal in thickness prior to glueup. The domino should be great for aligning the boards. You're really trying to minimize the handwork after the fact to cleaning up the glue lines and smoothing out the top.
Look also at purchasing some of the Bow Clamps. These are amazing cauls, and will minimize the amount of handwork by ensuring that the panel is glued together as flat as possible.
If all goes well you should only have to concentrate on the area around the glue lines. For this I like to use a card scraper, follwed by a smoothing plane.
and cabinet scrapers.
Hopefully you won't need a jointer (#7, or #8), after the glueup. Having a #5, a #4 or #4 1/2, and some scrapers available would be handy. I have a cabinet scraping plane also. Not necessary but a cool plane to have.

I can't emphasize enough putting a lot of effort into the initial milling and glueup of the boards that make the panels. Being able to flatten and smooth a large panel is very a satisfying experience. Doing a lot of them becomes less fun.

[Wilbur Pan]

Plano, huh? I used to live in Dallas about 10 years ago.

If you are looking to get introduced to hand tools, there is nothing better than having someone who knows hand tools show you what they can do. There's great info out there on the internet, but it's still not a substitute for real live examples.

Luckily, it looks like your local Woodcraft in Addison has some classes coming up in February that will be useful. One is called, "Build A Wooden Hand Plane", and the other is called, "Hand Tool Basics & Sharpening". If you balk at the price of the "Build A Wooden Hand Plane" class, consider that it's cheaper than a Lie-Nielsen jointer, you'll still have a plane, and you'll be able to build any other bench planes you'll ever need.

Also, if you have a local woodworking club, try them out. We hand tool users always love showing power tool users how hand tools are way better than their electron chewing equivalents. ;)

[John Dykes]

I'll chime in with where I'm at... and take my comments not as sage wisdom as someone who's been around the block and can lead you in the paths of hand plane righteousness - but rather one who's stumbling around learning by trial and error (and loving every minute to be honest). Fact in point, I only own two bench planes (Well 3 now, my daughter just called a few minutes ago. My type 14 #5 "sweetheart" just came) - a LN #4, and a Stanley type 15 #7 (1930's).

Again, I don't have a dog in the LN\LV vs Stanley fight. But I can't afford LN to be my first choice - I wish I could, but I just can't (it’s all in powertools!). And to be honest, now that I've learned a little - I kinda like the thought of restoring old, good quality planes for my own use. I'm a "buy the best you can afford" kinda guy - so having to settle for anything else but LN used to bug me. Doesn't anymore - I really like using the old Stanleys - not for quality or shine, just the intangible "mystique" in them. Is LN better than a well cared for Stanley? Yea, I’d bet they are. But I'm very happy w/ the Stanleys.

What was the question? Oh yea - flatten a panel.

My first thought is to make sure you take good steps prior and during the glue up. Make sure the boards are flat and square, and you take your time during the glue up. Bad boards make for a bad panel. If you take your time before and during the glue up, you won't need to "flatten" too much - just cleaning up the glue line and smoothing. There’s plenty of information readily available about obtaining an accurate panel.

In the light "Do as I say, not as I do:" my last panel was out of cheap HD poplar - and didn't turn out too well. I didn't take my time and don't own a plate joiner or Domino or the like... I had some real alignment problems. I used the #7 to flatten out the panel (#6, #5 would do fine too I suppose). Once mostly flat - I used the #4 to smooth it out. It was a joy to do, but you can save a lot of work if you take care during the glue up.

So I'd suggest - (starting w/ most expensive)
1) If money permits, get a LN\LV #6 or #7 - to flatten the panel, and a LN\LV #4 to smooth it. Or - buy a tuned #6 or #7 old Stanley, and LN #4. Or - tuned #7, #4. Or untuned... you get the idea...

2) Play with the planes. Sharpening, setting the frog, the depth - take cuts on little pieces of wood - flat, on edge. Glue up a little panel of poplar - "flatten" it. (Be aware of how much thinner a panel can get in the process of getting it flat!) Learn to sharpen. You must make that commitment – else save your money on fancy planes.

This is most important - the "skill" in using planes - the real trick - isn't buying them! Or using them, or setting them, or tuning them - it's keeping them sharp. Point being - you have to make a commitment (and an investment) in learning how to sharpen quickly and consistently. Buying a full set of LNs means nothing in the long run... Without a sharp blade (a blade that you sharpen), they are nothing more than doorstops.

I also come from a power tool background. It never struck me that I had much skill in woodworking. Yes, I’m a Normite \ Wood Whisperer kinda guy (2 men with more skill in their pinky than I’ll ever have in my whole body…): Buy a Unisaw, tune it w/ TS-Aligner, set the fence w/ a dial guage, clamp it down - rip a board at 3.17203 inches. Yes, fast. Yes, precise. But did it take skill? Did I have to practice ripping a board to 3.17203? Eh, not so much. I could pretty much do that day one on my big iron workshop – rip, crosscut, plane, joint – fast and accurately. Never felt like I was learning a “skill,” I was just working a machine - an expensive toaster.

But do I feel like I have skill in understanding, using, tuning, and sharpening handplanes? Yea, I’m still mostly an untrained hack, but I feel like I’m gaining skill in working wood. In really working wood…

The point being - these rewards aren't instant, and it's not easy. This handplane concept takes real... skill. Skill comes through learning and experience. Please forgive if this sounds elitist – It’s my heartfelt encouragement that you not get discouraged and find the true joy in using hand tools. Stick with it if you start – don’t give up. I did give up – and wasted years in the process. I bought my #4 LN years ago – and it sat lost in a box for many years – and I continued to sand panels with the biggest, baddest, and best sanders you can buy. I was used to pushing a button and getting fast, accurate – and dog-gone good results. When I put the plane to wood for the first – many – times, I didn’t get the result I expected or wanted. It wasn’t until I made the commitment to hand tools that they started giving back to me. In ways that my words would fail you.

I encourage you – make that commitment. Buy a #4 and #7 – or the like. Learn to sharpen them, how the frog should be set, which way the grain lays – etc. When I made my first shavings – my first real shavings from a blade I sharpened – I finally felt like I was working wood –-- working the wood. After years of running hundreds of board feet through the best Unisaws, Powermatic jointers, steel top router tables, and stationary planers – I finally felt like a real woodworker. And that feeling continues – but now has grown into a yearning to be a craftsman.

Amen.

What was the question?

Respectfully,
jbd

[Mark Stutz]

(Whispering...) Looks like we've got another one...I'll help push him down the slope!:D;):D

Welcome to the Enlightened side of woodworking!: I'd say the majority of us have come from a power tool background and have added handtools to varying degrees. You'll get lots of opinions and suggestions there is no quick and easy answer to your question, and you've gotten good advice so far. If your panels are pretty good after glue up, you might get by with just a smoother or scraper. Regardless of what size plane is needed, you need to pay attention to grain direction before glue up! If the grain is running in opposite directions from one board to the next, trying to hand plane them will an exercise in frustration! DAMHIKT:mad:. A ROS doesn't care about grain direction but a hand plane does. I never even paid any attention to that before I started using hand planes! Heck, you might even sell that ROS one of these days, once you bet used to that silky surface!:D Good luck. Take it one step at a time and I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Mark

[Brian Kent]

Three things: Like Mark said,

you need to pay attention to grain direction before glue up!

you need to pay attention to grain direction before glue up!

you need to pay attention to grain direction before glue up!

Brian:D

[Larry Laffer]

I'm not so sure he's at the edge of the slippery slope just yet. Sounds more like he's got a problem and can't figure out how to do it with power tools. (there is a way with a router, a jig, and bowl bit)

Glen, if you're on any kind of rush to finish your project, I'd recommend the router approach. Or a belt sander followed by a cabinet scraper (a #80).
But if you have the time to spend on the learning curve and want to learn to use hand planes, you'll want to practice first on a nice easy wood like poplar until you feel comfortable with the tool. I'd recommend that you start out with a #5 jack plane, anywhere from an old Stanley Bailey #5 to a brand new Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen Low angle Jack.

[Jim Dunn]

The little experience I have with hand tool is with a Stanley 80 scraper. I love it so much I just may be slipping down the slope, real fast!!.

That said Glen, with your ability and craftsmanship (I've seen your work) you'll have no trouble with hand tools. I think they compliment power tools or the other way around.

[Glen Blanchard]

Thanks for all the replies folks. The panels have not yet been glued up - I have not even yet begun milling the boards yet. I was just trying to plan ahead. After reading the responses here, I think I will see what I have following the glue-up. I have not used the Domino yet for panel alignment - perhaps there will not be much needed following the glue-up.

We shall see. Thanks again - and thanks Jim, for your confidence in me. :D

[Randy Klein]

Heck, you might even sell that ROS one of these days, once you bet used to that silky surface!:D

Don't sell your ROS. I just used mine to sand down the bottom of my cast iron cookware ;), of course that was after I found it, not sure the last time I used it.

Now I can use my skillets on my glass top stove without scratching. Let's see a hand plane do that...:p