Frank Klausz's Video on Dovetails

[Carl Eyman]

After reading Dennis' Thread on chopping dovetails I looked at Klausz's video on the subject. Boy that guy is good or the cameraman knows some tricks. I have a real yen to give it a try. My first question is what kind of a saw should I get? Don't believe my current one is good enough. Will my bevel edge bench chisels cut the mustard?

[Steve Beadle]

After reading Dennis' Thread on chopping dovetails I looked at Klausz's video on the subject. Boy that guy is good or the cameraman knows some tricks. I have a real yen to give it a try. My first question is what kind of a saw should I get? Don't believe my current one is good enough. Will my bevel edge bench chisels cut the mustard?
I am sure you will get a lot of advice on this subject! Cutting dovetails, such as for drawers, is one of my favorite woodworking operations. As for the equipment, you can go cheap or you can go expensive--or as I do, you can go adequate. Start out with an adequate Japanese pull saw (probably about $25 or $30). Your bench chisels will probably be adequate, as long as you know how to get them razor sharp. There are lots of places you can get instruction on laying out the dovetails, and Frank's video is one of the best, if less than detailed. His practiced eye may be better than yours or mine. I confess, I actually use a dovetail marking gauge rather than eyeball it. I also like to place a mirror behind the board, at an angle, so I can see the back side of the board and know when to stop the sawcut.
Have fun!

[Carl Eyman]

Well, I triy to get them sharp. I use scary sharp practices, and am getting better bit by bit. I agree completely about his devil may care approach to the depth of the saw cut and the layout. I'll need a better guide. I am thinking I should upgrade my marking gauge to a disc type and get a brass template. But please come back, if you can, with an alternative to the Japanese saw. Tommorow is my 82nd birthday; so I well remember Dec. 7, 1941, and how I spent the next 4 years trying to undo what those ****s did. I won't buy a Jap car and don't like to ride in them. (Yes I know that was more than a half century ago and the nation is different today). But just as some people won't fly in an airplane even though it is safer than a car so won't I use a Japanese tool. ( I apologize for the rant) and thanks for your reply.

[Richard Gillespie]

I understand your position on purchasing a Japanese pull saw. What you will need to use is any good rip saw with a narrow kerf. I purchased an Adria from the Museum of Woodworking Tools, a woodworking tool supply house in New York. They also sell the Pax line of saws. On Ebay, they occasionally sell antique good quality back saws from both USA and England.

I use the wheel marking gauge from Veritas.

On sharpening your chisels, if you use a micro bevel, keep it as small as possible. You want to minimize any friction points as much as possible. One point that the video you saw makes is to start the chisel in front of the mark. I agree with that. the bevel on the chisel forces the chisel back to the line.

[Carl Eyman]

Being in Virginia you have, undoubtedly, seen the guys at the Hays Shop in Colonial Williamsburg make dovetails many times. They use no Japanese tools. I refuse to acknowledge that we didn't know how to make dovetails long before Commodore Perry steamed into Toyko harbor and got that country communicating with the rest of the world. Thanks, Richard

[Michael Perata]

Being in Virginia you have, undoubtedly, seen the guys at the Hays Shop in Colonial Williamsburg make dovetails many times. They use no Japanese tools. I refuse to acknowledge that we didn't know how to make dovetails long before Commodore Perry steamed into Toyko harbor and got that country communicating with the rest of the world. Thanks, Richard

This has got to be a hold over from the early 90's when everything Japanese was better.

I have tossed my Japanese chisels into the back of the drawer and bought a good set of Sorby's. I have tossed the couple of Japanese saws I had in the trash and bought good Lie-Nielsen cross and rip (dovetail) saws.

So, I gotta push the saw instead of pull, that's how I was taught, and virtually all of the western world. It works.

[Michael Cody]

Being in Virginia you have, undoubtedly, seen the guys at the Hays Shop in Colonial Williamsburg make dovetails many times. They use no Japanese tools. I refuse to acknowledge that we didn't know how to make dovetails long before Commodore Perry steamed into Toyko harbor and got that country communicating with the rest of the world. Thanks, Richard

Not to start a western vs eastern philosophy session, but there is no reason you can't use either style saw. I use both and Frank K. uses western style saws.. but personally though I have a couple of nice dovetail backsaws.. I've gone Japanese for dovetails. They are thinner kerf and cut faster/easier. A cheap Lee Valley Steel backed Dozuki for 22$ will cut faster and cleaner than most western style saws (Ardia or LN) costing 5 times as much. The Lee Valley Professional Dozuki is a real nice saw too for 69$ ...

Your chisels will work fine as long as they are sharp, but for me I use a coping saw to clean out most of the waste and just pare to the mark.. seems faster to me if I have more than few to do.. and I have to admit if I have dozens -- then I use a bandsaw and pare to finish.. but that is just me.

[James Carmichael]

Well, I triy to get them sharp. I use scary sharp practices, and am getting better bit by bit. I agree completely about his devil may care approach to the depth of the saw cut and the layout. I'll need a better guide. I am thinking I should upgrade my marking gauge to a disc type and get a brass template. But please come back, if you can, with an alternative to the Japanese saw. Tommorow is my 82nd birthday; so I well remember Dec. 7, 1941, and how I spent the next 4 years trying to undo what those ****s did. I won't buy a Jap car and don't like to ride in them. (Yes I know that was more than a half century ago and the nation is different today). But just as some people won't fly in an airplane even though it is safer than a car so won't I use a Japanese tool. ( I apologize for the rant) and thanks for your reply.

Happy Birthday, Carl!

Yesterday (23rd) was my dad's 80th, a fellow WWII Navy vet. On behalf us youngsters, thank you!

[James Carmichael]

I understand your position on purchasing a Japanese pull saw. What you will need to use is any good rip saw with a narrow kerf. I purchased an Adria from the Museum of Woodworking Tools, a woodworking tool supply house in New York. They also sell the Pax line of saws. On Ebay, they occasionally sell antique good quality back saws from both USA and England.

I use the wheel marking gauge from Veritas.

On sharpening your chisels, if you use a micro bevel, keep it as small as possible. You want to minimize any friction points as much as possible. One point that the video you saw makes is to start the chisel in front of the mark. I agree with that. the bevel on the chisel forces the chisel back to the line.


Thanks for the tips, Richard. Where can I find the video you all are referring to? Also, dumb question, which way should the bevel of the chisel face?

[Alan Turner]

Carl,
My Dad, were he alive, would hve been 81 this year. He was a Sea Bee, and served in Guam, buildng airstrips. We still have some walnut bookends he carved while there, using his downtime.
As to a saw, any old Disston backsaw, esp. pre WWII (will have apple, not beech, handle), will be fine. In fact, I think they are excellent saws. Only trick is to have them sharp, and filed for a rip cut, of course. Should be about $35 or so (less at a yard sale), before the filing. The filing charge will depend upon condition. You can send it to Tom Law, who is fabulous, or just your local sharpening service should be fine, but if you go that way, just ask them to hand set the teeth, and not machine set them, as this is what really goofs up the cutting action. Any bevel edge chisel will be fine, just so long as it is narrower than the socket. DT's have a bit of mistique, but are not difficult, and when you are comfortable cutting right to a line, then they will go together right off the saw.
I have seen Klaus cut DT's, and they are not much more difficult than he makes them seem. When I teach, the motivated students, many who come to the class with zero saw or chisel experience, are cutting acceptable DT's in just a few hours, and that includes learning for the first time how to use a handsaw and chisel.
Alan

[Donnie Raines]

If anyone is interested, Popluar Wood Working did a comparison last year on Eastern VS Western(pull VS push if you would). The article was very complete. go to www.popwood.com and then click on MEET THE STAFF. Then, click on Chris Schwarz and he will let you know which issue this can be found in.

I use the LN Independence saw and love it.

DonnieR

[Scott Post]

There's nothing inherently superior about a Japanese or Western style saw. The reason they're often recommended for beginners on a budget is because you can get a sharp, properly set Japanese dovetail saw for about 1/3 the price of a sharp, properly set Western style dovetail saw. Yes, you can get a cheap western style saw and sharpen it yourself but that's pretty intimidating for a beginner.

Personally, I use an Independence (pre-Lie Nielsen) saw for dovetails because at the time it was hard to find western style dovetail saws on the old tool market. It was just before Ebay really took off and the few old tool dealers I was familiar with couldn't keep up with demand. If I were in the market now I'd probably buy an old Disston for two reasons: One, the explosion of Ebay has made them more readily available and, two, I've since become comfortable sharpening my own saws.

[Davy Barr]

I do this every time, but don't forget Vlad Spehar's dovetail saws. In my mind, they are the best bang-for-the-buck western style saw out there. His new website looks great too.

http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/

[Richard Gillespie]

Thanks for the tips, Richard. Where can I find the video you all are referring to? Also, dumb question, which way should the bevel of the chisel face?
In answer to your questions, the video I have I received 8 or 9 years ago with a set of books I bought from Time Life.

As to your question about which way the bevel of the chisel faces, it's to the outside. In other words, the back of the chisel butts up close to the line. When the chisel is struck the bevel forces the chisel back to the line.

[Steve Denvir]

A nice complement to the Klausz video is Rob Cosman's video on hand-cutting through dovetails. He goes over saw selection, and is a litle more precise when it comes to marking. Available through Lie-Nielsen.

Steve

[Greg Wandless]

Carl,
Peck tools sells a laminate saw for $16.50.

http://www.pecktool.com/Tool%20page1.htm

It has a little too much set but you can take that out by rubbing a Norton stone against the sides. Once thats done it cuts very cleanly has a fairly narrow kerf.

I used it for quite a while before moving on to a Japanese saw (sorry).

Cheers,
Greg