What would you do?

[Michael Gibbons]

A few weeks back, my Father in law left a message with my wife that he wants to talk to me (uh-oh). I go down to his house and said What's Up? He began telling me of this great idea he had that involves me making new cabinets for his shop while he and mother are dwn in Florida for the winter. While that in itself is no big deal, my wife was talking me a few days ago and said that she is supposed to let him know when I've hit the $1,000.00 mark:eek:. I said the maple butcher block tops that he want's are over $1,200.00 by themselves. So I sat down and went through the price catalog and priced out everything I would need to complete it including tax and added in a $250.00 fudge factor. and the amount was $2,900.00. I handed him the sheet and I thought he was going to keel over right there. Needless to say he is very cheap- a trait that is ingrained in him and all his brothers and sisters who were very poor as children. He likes nice stuff but hates to pay for it. I'm basically letting him decide and tell me before he leaves. I am also not willing to do the project any other way because I want the cabinets to last and look great. The entire amount needs to be in my hands all at once so I can order what I need all at the same time.

Whats your idea? Did I do right ?`

[Ed Breen]

Michael, Well Done!!! The only thing you left out was the premium for his relaxation in the sunny south while he knows his fav son in law is taking care of business.
Ed:p:p

[Matt Crew]

I've had the same situation with family members cars.
You don't want to skimp on anything because it will come back to bite you in the long run.
The last thing you want is to hear is how things didn't measure up to his expectations.
Better to have it up front and open, than try to make it work at the budget he sets and have things tur out sub par.

[Scott Kilroy]

Remind him that in olden times you would have received a dowry for taking a daughter off his hands :)

Seriously I think you didn't the best thing possible. I deal with cheap clients in my line of work (computers not woodworking) and cheap friends/acquaintances when it comes to woodworking and I think it's best to give the person making the request as much control as possible over the cost beforehand.

[Matt Meiser]

This sounds familiar, only in my case it involves my parents and their bathroom. What I've been doing is having them buy everything up front. In fact today we are going to get the wood for the cabinets. Other than flooring which they are supposed to order this week, we have all the major stuff stored in their basement. All the incidentals--plumbing supplies, etc they are supposed to set aside some money for and leave with me, and we have an understanding that if I have to pay for stuff they need to pay me back within the credit card cycle so I don't have to pay for stuff out of my pocket.

I've also been making lots of jokes about my $75/hr rate.

[jason lambert]

I have the exact same situation! Perfectly handled those people are hard to deal with, I can say that because mind is my father. Make sure he know what to expect as well and tell him if he was paying for labor for someone to do it it would be over the cost of materials in labor alone.

The trouble is my father always uses my tools and then when he uses a saw blade till the point it is unusable and dull he will not replace it, he tells me it is fine and not his fault he didn't dull it for the couple of cuts he made then tells me I shouldn’t buy $70 blades anyhow! Gotta keep him out of my shop but it is hard.

Be careful doing work for people like that and don't low ball yourself. Give him the list and tell him if he can get the stuff for less go head and you will put it in.

[glenn bradley]

You did right. I beat the "set proper expectations" theme into folks at work until they are sick of it. A person is always going to be happier (even if not really happy) when they pay what they expect as opposed to getting a cheap job or a higher bill. Ya done good. There are some folks who do kitchens for a living on the forum and I garuntee they couldn't/wouldn't do it for a grand.

[Scott Kilroy]

The trouble is my father always uses my tools and then when he uses a saw blade till the point it is unusable and dull he will not replace it, he tells me it is fine and not his fault he didn't dull it for the couple of cuts he made then tells me I shouldn’t buy $70 blades anyhow! Gotta keep him out of my shop but it is hard.


I thought stuff like this is what the blade that came with the saw is for. I've got a couple of friends who use my shop and they have the choice of buying their own blades or using my sears craftsman junk blades, of course with your father that might be a hard line to take.

[Al Willits]

Try being in the HVAC/appliance repair industry once...:)

You did find imho, I have a even more direct approach, I either do it free (not likey on spendy items) or I charge them the going rate, been woke up at 3 am one to many times by relatives or friends with AC or Heating problems after I worked on their system 3 or 4 years before that.
Seems once you work on their stuff, its suppose to last forever and if not, your suppose to fix it free and at a moments notice.


One was after I told him his compressor was going out and to replace it before it got hot again, he waited two years and called on a 102 degree Sunday evening...

Seems friends and relatives are the worse ones to deal with.

Al

[Tom Veatch]

For the OP, you did fine under the circumstances. Nothing there to have second thoughts about.


...
Seems friends and relatives are the worse ones to deal with.
...


Which is why I try to avoid business dealings with friends or family and, when circumstances warrant, advise others to adopt/maintain that same policy. Prevents most of those 3:00 am phone calls and taking the hit for the unrealistic expectations of others.

[John Zee]

Sounds good. But whatcha gonna charge to install them? Are they finished or paint grade? Are you doing that as well?

[Steve LaFara]

Maybe I'm a little different but I look at doing stuff for parents and in-laws almost as a payback for the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent raising you or your spouse, plus you will likely get it back plus interest when they pass away. They might just move in with you some day and you can use the cabinets yourself.

I understand that we all can not afford to give them whatever they want, but at the same time, you can tell them there are two options. You can make the cabinets out of c grade plywood from the Borg for his $1200 or do it the "right" way, which is the way he taught you as a child to allways do, but that's gonna cost more. His decision. My Dad always said that if it wasn't worth doing it right the first time, it was'nt worth doing at all.

Good luck, and I'm sure that no matter what you end up making, they will be very appreciative of them.

[Corey Wilcox]

Michael,

You couldn't have done it better. The way you handled it will let him make the decision on what level of quality he wants and he can see that you didn't invent a price tag to try and take advantage of him. Likewise, you aren't stuck gluing together cut offs from the local pallet mill to make up enough "boards" to build him some cabinets. Sometimes people just don't realize that these things do cost money.

He must be looking for some extensive counter tops to total $1200 alone. Or maybe they're actual butcher block (end grain)?

[Peter Quadarella]

Steve, a lot of people hold your point of view, but I think it leads to trouble in most cases.

For one, children should not be held responsible for any "payback". Parents have children for their own reasons, and the last thing I would want for my children is to feel they need to pay me back monetarily.

Secondly, expecting your parents to leave you money in their will as a payback for your work is even worse. Many parents don't have money to leave to their heirs, and others expect their kids to rely on their own footing and have a plan to spend it all before they go. Besides, with medical science the way it is, you could be 80 before your parents go these days.

Doing stuff for free most often leads to bad feelings down the line, as people always want more than you are willing to give, and when times are rough and you could really help you expect payback in kind. Then when you don't have the time to help because you are busy with important clients or something similar, bad feelings are generated because you did it last time. Generally all kinds of expectations get set on all sides and over the years more bad then good tends to come from it - in my humble opinion. Maybe not now, but wait 20 or 30 years...

Of course, doing the ocasional act of goodwill for someone is always nice :)

[Roy Hatch]

Michael, I had to smile when I read your post, as you describe a scene that's been played many times. Your response was what I would have suggested. If I could make a suggestion, it would have been to add that if he wanted it done for less he should check with another craftsman. I assume he knows your price will be less and he will grudgingly accept your terms.

Please let us hear "The Rest of the Story".

Roy

[Ken Shoemaker]

You did the right thing...

Bottom line: Deal with it right now, or live with it the rest of HIS life!!!!!:o

They may not know it right now, but your probably doing everyone a favor and keeping the peace...


Good Luck!! Ken

[Norman Pyles]

You were in a really tough situation, and I think you handled it pretty good. I hope everything works out ok for all. Maybe you could get them a bid from a cabinet company, and see just how much money you are saving them.

[Chuck Lenz]

I don't do any work for family or friends anymore. They just end up sucking the life out of you. It's a good way to ruin relationships and it takes all the fun out of woodworking. I would not do it.

[Dan Barr]

I would have charged him for the estimate too. Much less the labor.

Unless it was my idea as a gift or a pre-arranged deal of some sort.

Can i get you to build me some cabinets? :D

v/r

dan

[James Hart]

Maybe I'm a little different but I look at doing stuff for parents and in-laws almost as a payback for the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent raising you or your spouse, plus you will likely get it back plus interest when they pass away. They might just move in with you some day and you can use the cabinets yourself.

I understand that we all can not afford to give them whatever they want, but at the same time, you can tell them there are two options. You can make the cabinets out of c grade plywood from the Borg for his $1200 or do it the "right" way, which is the way he taught you as a child to allways do, but that's gonna cost more. His decision. My Dad always said that if it wasn't worth doing it right the first time, it was'nt worth doing at all.

Good luck, and I'm sure that no matter what you end up making, they will be very appreciative of them.

I think both Steve and Peter hit the nail on the head.

We don't automatically owe our parents or in-laws anything. They need to have earned it. I would build anything for my parents or my father-in-law. They have earned my eternal gratitude. If I had done away my mother-in-law the first time it entered my mind I would already be out on parole.

Jim

[Robert Mahon]

Unfortunately, my Mom & Dad are no longer with me. So, I don't have to deal with that.
But, when asked by anyone else, kids included, I tell them I do this stuff for fun and making large items for someone else is not fun for me.

If they really want me to do something for them, go to HD or the like and get a price. Then double it to have me do it.

I also tell them, when they ask me what I want for Christmas or my birthday, "If you can't get me a BMW M6, don't get me anything".

My Daughter-in-law got smart and bought me a model of one. She thought it pretty cute at the time but was a bit surprised when she asked me to make her a Hutch and I made her a model of one.

I don't want to start making stuff on order because it'll just turn into another job. And I've had all of them I want.

You did it right.

[Thomas Knighton]

My Daughter-in-law got smart and bought me a model of one. She thought it pretty cute at the time but was a bit surprised when she asked me to make her a Hutch and I made her a model of one.


OK, that's just plain funny! ;)

Tom

[Brian Weick]

I would be insulted first of all- " let me know when I get to the $1000 mark"? Are you kidding me, And he's taking a trip to Florida! No way- Family is supposed to support each other , not screw them- this guy is a piece of work in my opinion- DON"T DO IT!
Man that burns me up!
Brian

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Michael,
One very important call you and the in-laws missed is a call to their insurance agent.
You need to find out who pays if you get hurt doing work for them - even uncompensated work, and who pays if you accidently damage anything during the installation.

We - my wife and I - just went through a similar process.

[Lee Schierer]

When I make items for family the deal is that they buy all the materials and any special cutters I might need. The special cutters and tools are mine at the end of the job. The labor is free because it keeps me out from in front of the TV. I also help with home repairs and home improvement projects, but expect similar help if I need it on a project. I have given gifts to both kids and parents that were made in my shop. Some have returned to my house when the folks didn't need them anymore, so now I have them.

If you are donating the labor then I would expect your FIL to pay for the materials since he obviously isn't going to contribute any labor to the project if he is going to Flordia. I would also make it clear that my job and other things might prevent the completion before he returns.

[Don Bullock]

Michael, in your situation you did the right thing for you and your family. If he doesn't want to pay the "cost" of what he wants then at least you've given him that choice. Adding a "fee" in for your time would have even been better.

That said, as soon as my friends and relatives found out I was getting back into woodworking I started getting "orders" from them. I have now let everyone know "up front" that I'm doing projects that I want to do, not what others want me to do. That's one of the biggest reasons I quit over twenty years ago. Most of my "shop time" was spent on projects that other people "expected" me to make. On some of them my wife and I even had to pay for the materials. Yes, I recently made some Christmas gifts for some special friends, but I did it because I wanted to, not because it was expected. I, by nature, am a very giving person. I enjoy giving presents to people that will make them "happy."

I found out the "hard way" that family and friends can easily "dominate" my woodworking to the point where it isn't fun any more. I refuse to get back in that rut again.

[John Seiffer]

I agree with everyone else who said you did the right thing.

The only thing I'd add is that you ask your wife to stop being the go-between. If he tells her something to tell you, she should just say "I'll have him call you" and when you call make it clear you didn't get any of the details.

[Randal Stevenson]

While you handed him the budget, WITH a fudge factor, I would make sure he knows, it is open to any unforseen problems (out of HIS pocket).

I have had problems with EVERY hobby I have enjoyed, and they have ALL turned into work. Including assisting the family with around the house projects (not FINE woodworking), automotive, and computers (to name a few).
I do agree on the insurance thing (can get very ugly).
As to the parents, in-laws thing, why do we owe them? I know I didn't ask to be born, and while some parents earn, trust, love and respect, if you have seen what all I have seen (not just my family but friends, etc), I think your views of life would be different.
Inheritence, smeritence. I have seen people die, and leave their kids, to go get loans, to bury them.

If you do jobs for people, and not just woodworking for fun, treat this as one of those ones you overbid, because you don't want to do it. If you do jobs for yourself/fun, tell him that and put it to rest.

[Dan Barr]

Family can be one of the biggest time eaters when it comes to their wants.

my mother-in-law didnt want a coffee table BEFORE she knew i woodworked.

Just like when you go to the store with your list of gorceries. do you get exactly whats on the list. NOPE.

you always get a few more things. why... because they are available to you. if they werent available you wouldnt have gotten them.

here is my silly satire of the whole thing going down. :D

-family thinks: woodwork now an available option since discovering family member with woodworking skills
-family then thinks: new coffee table would be nice, new fill in blank would be nice also.
-family proceeds to ask woodworker for/about said object
-woodworker (depending on mental clarity, standing with family member, standing with spouse, etc.) proceeds to get into something other than a business deal here. :D
-woodworker then proceeds to under-quote cost in order to appease family member, maybe spouse.
-woodworker also eats difference in prices
-family member complains about timing
-woodworker says "i know, i'll have it done soon"
-family member critiques work on frequent visits causing a re-design and a delay
-woodworker does not say "well this is what you said you wanted"
-because of the aforementioned omitted, family member feels as though they have leeway here and proceeds to complain again about the re-design and the delay. Even throws in comments about "what am i paying you for"
-woodworker does not say "you are not paying me though" and numerous other explicative remarks
-woodworker also refrains from acts of violence and thoughts of homicide
-woodworker secretly tells spouse of troubles and tension
-spouse secretly tells family member of woodworkers bad attitude :D
-family member proceeds to talk about woodworker behind their back
-woodworker gets the feeling that the family member is talking about them behind their back.
-triangular rumor mill proceeds until all parties deaths (pseudo ad infinitum)
-project is finally complete
-woodworker refuses to be present when the family member picks it up or woodworker begrudgingly hauls the project to the family members house and installs it for them while family member "supervises"
-spouse says "thank god"
-woodworker loses temper and gets into argument with spouse
-woodworker and spouse sleep seperately that night
-woodworker has learned the hard way once again :)

LOLOLOLOL

thats my 25 cents worth for the day.

dan

[Michael Gibbons]

Well gang, It's 2 days after Christmas, the in-laws left for Florida for about 3 months yesterday and I heard no word from FIL about the cabinets he wanted me to build so I'm going to safely assume( for now), that he doesn't want them done. On the other hand, he will argue with himself for weeks when it means spending a large sum of money. I and my wife and her 2 brothers were cracking up when we found out that he didn't sleep for the whole week before he went out and bought their new class A motor home a few years ago, It was like he was having ALL his teeth pulled:D.

[Rick Gifford]

When I make items for family the deal is that they buy all the materials and any special cutters I might need. The special cutters and tools are mine at the end of the job. The labor is free. I also help with home repairs and home improvement projects, but expect similar help if I need it on a project.

Actually this is how I do projects. My family isnt demanding. I like to help my family any way I can if its not being abused. Oh I have cousins that would use you in a minute! My close family is no way like that. So really no issues here.

I have family members that will help you in a minute, go to great length to do so. Im glad to help them. Others... well case by case basis I guess you could say.

Close friends would get a great price. Quite frankly if anyone suggested I notify them when it reaches a $1000 for that much work I'd have to start laughing on the spot. Probably pee myself doing so.

[Jim Becker]

You did the right thing, IMHO.

[Mark Stutz]

My Dad always said that if it wasn't worth doing it right the first time, it was'nt worth doing at all.

.

For a minute there, I thought you were talking about MY father. They must have read the same book!:D:eek: I can't even count how many times I heard that growing up!

Mark

[Robert Mahon]

Another few words about doing things for others.

For years before I retired I made Christmas gifts for all my employees; Jewelry boxes, back-scratchers, clocks, trivets, etc. All went well and they were appreciated quite a lot. Life was good!
Now, in order that you understand this next better, this was at a manufacturing facility having 9 seperate internal factories with a total of 96 people including "Sales persons". 5 of those factories were mine having 47 people. Actually, not a really big deal because I set up small production lines in my shop and got it all done in about 2 months, depending on project. I like exotic woods so the cost was fairly substantial. Regardless, 'my people' supported me 100% and all went well for us. We had a good reputation and there were many others wanting to transfer into my factories when opportunities arose. Life was really good!

However, as with all things, there were some people in the other factories that got their nose bent out of shape because none of the other 4 managers did anything for their subordinates.
All of a sudden I started to get "Orders" from the other managers for specific items. No requests.....Orders!

Well, being somewhat of a resistant and combative individual (read that 'pain in the Butt'), I was very terse with my answers. Much to their chagrin.

Eventually I was made to stop because it became a very real source of internal strife between the other factory employees and mine.

Lesson learned; no matter what you do out of simple generosity and/or appreciation, there will always be those dis-satisfied with the results.

But, after 2 years, quite a few of 'my people' still stay in contact with me and we meet 10 to 12 times a year for 'special occasions'. Often just at the MCL for a few drinks. Life is still good.

I often think it better to not do anything for other people just to avoid the chance of dis-satisfaction.

Oh, the struggles of life.

[Dan Barr]

Mr. Mahon,

i dont think i could hold my tongue under those circumstances. Orders...!? Whew! i would definitely be in that persons office/face explaining to them that I MADE those gifts..... for MY workers. and then i'd lodge a stapler or hole punch or whatever into something. LOL :D

thats something else,

dan

[Robert Mahon]

Hi Dan.

When responding to those placing orders I was not my usual diplomatic, suave, sophisticated and subtle self. They were left with no chance of misunderstanding.

But now I've gotten myself into a new pickle by volunteering to make a somewhat large 3D Marine Corps insignia. I guess I'll have to learn a little carving for this one. You'd think I'd have learned better by now.

[Dan Barr]

i wouldnt have done any work though. (for the other factories) i would have told them that unless they are going to pay me, those gifts were made by me and no more will be made except of my own volition.

it really sucks when other lazy people try to jack up your good thing. in my opinion, you were doing a good job of supervising your workers and managing your factories. people wont want to transfer anywhere unless where they are sucks or where they are going is good. either way, youre most likely better than the other factory managers. its like the rumor mill at my job. you just have to ignore the morons and continue doing what you do regardless of the BS.

i dont know how you got into doing the marine corps insignia, but the current air force insignia would be much easier. LOL :D im in the air force.

cheers,

dan

[Tom Veatch]

...i dont know how you got into doing the marine corps insignia, but the current air force insignia would be much easier. ...


Yeah, it probably would be, but it's just not the same.:D

Semper Fi, Robert!!
78150

[Dan Barr]

the air force just cant seem to get it right. were not old enough either. were only 60 years old as a force now. eventually we will find our identity and the army will get over its self. maybe the navy will get over its self too and let the marine corps be.

v/r

dan

[Robert Mahon]

Thanks for that Tom. It'll help me.

As far as the Air Force goes, it seems all other branches get a bit bent out of shape because the AF has all the best living accommodations. I knew this to be true back in the day when I was in the Navy.
However, after all are discharged or resign, the inter-service rivalry doesn't seem to matter anymore. The feeling seems to be "We're all Brothers-in-arms" and served a common master.

I became a member of the MCL because the Jarheads welcomed me and made me feel like I belonged. Even if I was a Squid and Sub-service Bubblehead. But you should hear the barbs when I 1st walk in the door; which are swiftly returned in like (or better).

So, I do little things for them. But, I may have gotten in a bit over my head on this one.

Hopefully, I'll be able to start on it soon.

[Danny Thompson]

No good deed goes unpunished.

[Robert Mahon]

Agreed.
But why do I keep doing it?