Buy an old or new lathe

[Rich Nagy]

Folks, I have sold my Powermatic Mod 90, and I am ready to purchase a new lathe. My criteria has expanded to a longer bed lathe.

The purpose for a new lathe is to be able to make longer turnings that will be used for Bed spindles and colums for tables etc. I also want to turn bowls that would be about 16-18" max diameter. The new ones have extensions that you need to purchase. I want at least 48" Plus between centers. I have a liking for the older lathes that have made some of the finest turnings ever. A couple of lathes I was considering are as follows:

NEW PM 3520 with an 18" extension. Everyone seems to be high on this lathe and a no brainer.

Oliver 2159 with 72" between centers. This lathe was made in the 80's and has 16" swing and is also a pattern makers lathe, and weights in at about 900 lbs. This lathe came from a high school so it was not used much and is in excellent condition.

Oliver 25B with 72" between centers, This lathe is a pattern makers lathe and a monster, at 2500 pounds. This has a direct drive motor and was built during the 70's and has not been used very much. Other than the paint it is virtually new.

So should I be a consumer or give new life to an old machine. Does anyone have any knowledge on the two Olivers listed above?

[Jeff Bower]

Check out this site for the Oliver's...http://www.owwm.com/MfgIndex/Detail.asp?Tab=PhotoIndex&ID=609

A restore would be fun and I think that would be what I would do, but this would also take time away from turning...something to think about.

[Brett Baldwin]

Do you have (and are those two Oliver motors) 3 phase? You really can't beat the old stuff for vibration reducing mass but the Powermatic has some nice controls that would take money and time to replicate to some degree in the older lathes.

I'd be tempted to go old iron if large spindle turning is your primary pursuit. Just make sure you have all the necessary equipment like the tool rest, tailstock etc. with the older ones. You may be able to get more chucks and/or faceplates with the old ones as part of the deal as well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

If it were me I would go for the Oliver 2159 because it is still 900 lbs. and old iron. Either would be fun to restore and turn on.

[Rich Souchek]

A question above concerns the motors being 3 phase?
That used to eliminate the motor from use in our single phase shops, but the AC VFDs can the purchased to change 240 volt single phase to 240 volt 3 phase for use with these motors.
Then, some person will say, that motor is not rated for VFD!!
My expereince is if the motor is running at a small % of its rated power, as in most woodturning, the motor should be fine. Run it a while and check its temperature with your hand. If it does get hotter than you like, buy a cheap fan and mount the fan to direct cooling air over the motor. Keep checking the motor.
Or even buy a replacment motor off ebay.
Don't let some little motor stop you from using good old iron.
Rich S.

[Rich Nagy]

I have heard that the VFD will not work on a motor that is older. What I want to know is what is different with a 3 phase motor that is not VFD friendly? It has windings and what else. Unlike single phase there is no starter capaciter, points etc. I would be very interested to know.

The two Olivers are really great machines, with a carriage that I can use for some metal work etc.

The Oliver model 25 B motor is integrated in the head unit. NO belts!!!! It is big enough to turn a log into a toothpick and able to do great finese work as well. The motor being older has some weight behind it so it has great torque if you bare down on it hard. This lathe only has 674 hours on it, so it was not used very much. All for $1,000.

THe Oliver 2159 is 72" and is not as stout as the Oliver 25B. It has a Reeves drive, that I would change to a VFD.

Comments?

[Dennis Ford]

I have heard that the VFD will not work on a motor that is older. What I want to know is what is different with a 3 phase motor that is not VFD friendly? It has windings and what else. Unlike single phase there is no starter capaciter, points etc. I would be very interested to know.

A VFD WILL work on the older motor, but the motor MAY overheat if you run it at a slow speed. Also you should use caution when running an older motor at much greater than 60 hz.

[Mike Henderson]

[quote=Rich Nagy;728356]I have heard that the VFD will not work on a motor that is older. What I want to know is what is different with a 3 phase motor that is not VFD friendly? It has windings and what else. Unlike single phase there is no starter capaciter, points etc. I would be very interested to know.

A VFD WILL work on the older motor, but the motor MAY overheat if you run it at a slow speed. Also you should use caution when running an older motor at much greater than 60 hz.
Dennis - Why must caution be used when running an older 3 phase motor at greater than 60Hz? What sort of problems could occur if the motor was run at (for example) 90Hz?

Mike

[M Toupin]

A VFD will work fine. Some even suggest older motors might be better than newer ones due to the over engineering in most of them. Generally older motors have thicker windings and insulation and a lot more mass which helps dissipate the heat. Check out OWWM.org and the VFD forum on practicalmachinest.com. There's lots of folks on there with real world, hands-on experience. Bone up on VFDs and learn the pros and cons as well as the different types and the new technology. A lot of the horror stories and dire predictions you hear on the internet are dealing with the old style VFDs. The newer technology resolves a lot of the problems old ones had. Unfortunately these myths and half truths keep being retold and folks start to believe them cuz they read it on the internet so it must be true.

The important thing is to keep the airflow going to keep the motor cool. I'd recommend you keep the reeves drive and use it to select your rough speed then use the VFD to fine tune your speed. That way you can keep the motor RPMs up and keep the air flowing though the motor.

Mike

[Don Eddard]

The Oliver model 25 B motor is integrated in the head unit. NO belts!!!! It is big enough to turn a log into a toothpick and able to do great finese work as well. The motor being older has some weight behind it so it has great torque if you bare down on it hard. This lathe only has 674 hours on it, so it was not used very much. All for $1,000.

If you have the space, I'd think the 25B would be hard to resist.

[Kim Ford]

Rich, I have a Oliver 2255 mfgd in 1974. 2700 lbs of mass with a 2hp Lima drive. I put a VFD on it after I talked to the local industrial electric motor shop and they said it should work fine, and it does. Using a VFD on the older motors has to do with the insulation class of the wiring.

I'm not saying that yours will work but find out the particulars and talk with someone in the business that fixes and repairs industrial motors and they will know.

Olivers are great machines. They were designed for pattern shops and schools and to go the distance in those enviroments, and that they do. However, they are not without their challanges and rewards.


My spindle is threaded 1 7/8" X 8. Nearly impossible to get anything that works. And what you can find is outdated. Check closely the spindle size on the machines you are looking at.
I know you can have a spindle adapter made and I have done so, but getting one that is absoultely true is tough. My spindle is dead on, but the last one is four thousands out and that is still quite a problem with some pieces. (I guess need to find a better machinist.)
Olivers have a lot of mass at the headstock. Great for vibration but difficult when you need to work the back side of a bowl.
Big flat ways, great, but mine has a 4" gap. Again, anything you add such as a steady rest or a bowl saver will need some custom work done to make it work on the wider gap at the ways.
Mine does have a center hole through the spindle, but no threads on the outboard side so getting a vacum chuck to work is going to be another challange.
Rewards do exist though. . . I put a rather large off centered log on the other day that would laid havoc to any smaller fellow and had no problem. NICE.
I have a power compound, if you are going to turn any type of column this is a very nice feature.Okay, if I had to do it again what would I get? I would still get the Oliver, because I love them. Just understand old iron has it challanges.

[Brian Weick]

I have heard that the VFD will not work on a motor that is older. What I want to know is what is different with a 3 phase motor that is not VFD friendly? It has windings and what else. Unlike single phase there is no starter capaciter, points etc. I would be very interested to know.

The two Olivers are really great machines, with a carriage that I can use for some metal work etc.

The Oliver model 25 B motor is integrated in the head unit. NO belts!!!! It is big enough to turn a log into a toothpick and able to do great finese work as well. The motor being older has some weight behind it so it has great torque if you bare down on it hard. This lathe only has 674 hours on it, so it was not used very much. All for $1,000.



THe Oliver 2159 is 72" and is not as stout as the Oliver 25B. It has a Reeves drive, that I would change to a VFD.

Comments?

Rick,
What you are looking for in these motors is- 3 phase - induction- to the best of my knoledge there should be no problem - Guys do it all the time- I have one on my Oliver 20C - but the motor is a new Baldore 3hp with a 7hp rated VFD- works like a charm.
Brian

[Jim Becker]

For the kind of work you are describing, Rich, an older "big iron" machine may very well make sense. They are super spindle machines and the larger ones can be adapted very nicely for bowl and vessel work using the VFD plan you are considering. That's somewhat important as the native low end speed of many of those machines may be too high for safe roughing of larger bowls and vessels. IMHO, of course.

[Dick Strauss]

Rich,
VFD can be used with any 3 phase motor. However, there are other considerations that I've discovered through some research..

Speed Considerations
The motor will last longer if it is designed for VFD work (inverter duty). Using a VFD on a standard motor causes the fan to turn at a very slow speed so there is much less motor cooling. An older motor with lots of mass will help keep the motor temperature closer to ideal for short periods of slow running. VFDs can run a motor at 2x frequency (and 2x the speed) but the bearings should be designed for the extra speed. The extra high speed also wears out the bearings much quicker. The bearing lube schedule changes dramatically with the extra speed (1800 rpm - lube after 17,000 hours ...3600 rpm - lube after 6000 hours) assuming that the motor bearings are built for the higher speeds. Most TEFC motors do not work well above 4000 rpms because the fans don't move much air if they rotate too quickly.

Torque Considerations
Most normal 3 phase motors lose torque at lower than nominal speeds. The more you slow them, the more torque you lose. Some of the less expensive inverter duty motors will maintain a constant torque down to 1/2 speed (900 rpms on a 1800 rpm motor). The more expensive inverter duty motors maintain constant torque to 1/1000, 1/2000, or less of the nominal speed (1.8 rpms or 0.9 rpms). We want lots of torque to turn our spindles, right?

Wiring Considerations
Inverter duty motors have special insulation on the wires to prevent the wires from spontaneously discharging to different phase coils. Inverters can cause voltage spikes as high as 3x-4x nominal when the frequency is increased due to the reflected waves at the terminations. These voltage spikes can break down normal insulation. The spikes will also cause heating and oxidize of the underlying wires (increasing the internal wire resistance). With normal motors this breakdown also dissipates energy through the creation of ozone rather than turning the shaft.

All of these issues decrease the life expectancy of a normal 3 phase motor. How much does a VFD used with a std 3-phase motor decrease the life expectancy? I wish I had the answer! If you are going to use a VFD with a regular 3-phase motor, you'll see longer motor life by avoiding the speed extremes as much as possible (except in short spurts).

Good luck,
Dick

[Rich Nagy]

Kim, thanks for your insight. Trying to determine if an old iron Oliver like the 25B is right for me makes me think what do I really want. A friend posed to me, think of what percentage do you turn at 36" or less....at 48" or less.....at 60" or less..... Intersting point. I would like to have the opportunity to chat with you more on your Oliver lathe.

Then there is the Oliver 2159 at 900 lbs and the 25B at 2,000 lbs. Hmmmm where are the diminshing returns?? Nothing like rock steady regardless.

When I die and they auction off my stuff ( how dare they do that) or will the just put a flower pot on the lathe and call it art if they can not sell??? The client base for lathes like this is of a nature that nature does not seem to make any longer. I do not like the disposable world but it is good to use something that was built to last.

I do not think the motor will be a problem, there is a fan on the armature that could be used for testing the aerodynamic effects on spindles that I make. I wonder if Oneway or PM will sell me a headstock and motor????????? Hmmmmmmm, then I can get the best of both worlds.

Jim, nice to here from you, how'z that Mini Max?

[Rich Nagy]

Here is the big boy.

[Brian Weick]

Where would the lathe be resting ~ shop- basement? ~ something to consider when you will have to figure how to get it down in the basement if that is where it would be going. My Oliver 20C weighs in at 4,552.00 with the carriage - headstock and tail stock. There is no way I would ever attempt to get this in my basement. reason I asked I saw a post somewhere where a large pattern lathe , 10' in length and it was sold with the house and the sellers of the house bought it with the house as well- apparently - the lathe was dropped in the basement before the house was built with a crane- it's there for life now but apparently was a big selling point of the house for those that turned as well as looking for a home- interesting!
anyhow, ~ most of the turners on here usually like to go bigger when after they become familiar with turning- I skipped that step entirely and went write for the 20C, had prior turning experience when I was younger so I was familiar with the process and I knew what I wanted to turn-Columns and large architectural pieces was my direction- so that is where my Oliver 20C rests 2 years later.
I have tried the oneways , PM's Jet and a Watkin- big boy- that was sweet! but I must say and it is a biased opinion obviously, but the truth of the matter is there very few limitations when it comes to the old cast iron pattern lathes- especially the Olivers- They didn't skimp anything and it shows, the one feature that I like about my Oliver 20C is the carriage - the ability to turn from one end to the other and have it perfect in circumference through out the whole piece is incredible. I also use that to create coves, beads, fillets- the swells I do by hand -. but try to do that on lathes of today - let me say, it's a lot of work, I make all of my bits myself that go into the post holder- the sky is the limit. One thing to keep in mind if you get that lathe- if you use the carriage to cut your wood - I would advise that you do not "scrape" the wood instead use a gouge tool bit - properly angled to the piece and it gives you a beautiful cut , once you get familiar with it you can trim the wood using the gouge to the point you barely need to sand it.
at any rate , I would take the 25B - just make sure the windings are good, the bearings don 't have lateral and horizontal movement- if so it all can be repaired and is well worth the money in my opinion.
Brian

[Jim Becker]

Here is the big boy.

Now that's a beauty!

[Rich Nagy]

Brian, I will not have this in the basement. I have built a 24x30 ' garage and will have it there. I also have placed an oversized beam so I can hoist up to 6,000 of a truck and place it on the floor.

The lathe only has 674 hours on the meter, and came from the Navy Yard. So it was not a production lathe and all the parts will be in great shape. The lathe was stored in an wharehouse that did not have climate control so there is a very light surface rust. This will clean up nicely.

Good note on the windings of the motor. I will make sure that the unit is running with final approval to purchase. I will also get to the house with a friend that can tow it on a trailer. It is only about 1 1/2 hours away. Otherwise shipping would really cost. THis is also coming with the completed maintenance schedule the Navy did on the unit.

If there is anyone else out there that has an old Oliver that can provide good insight I would appreciate the comments.

[Jim Becker]

Rich, once you have that baby in the shop, I think I'm going to have to do a 'Creeker visit to your end of the woods to check it out! It looks like an amazing machine and also sounds like it was well maintained and, well...underutilized. Once you get it cleaned up, it should be a pleasure to have both from a personal use and a history standpoint.

[Rich Nagy]

Rich, once you have that baby in the shop, I think I'm going to have to do a 'Creeker visit to your end of the woods to check it out! It looks like an amazing machine and also sounds like it was well maintained and, well...underutilized. Once you get it cleaned up, it should be a pleasure to have both from a personal use and a history standpoint.

It would be my pleaseure to entertain a tour.

[Brian Weick]

Did you make a decision on which lathe your going to have in you're shop?
Brian