Plane learning

[Mike Heidrick]

I would like to learn to use a handplane - I am too dependent on power tools. Finally have some good chisels and now and some equipment to sharpen the tools with and now I want a good plane. Have been reading up on the bronze Lie Nielsen #4 and it looks beautiful. Most places have it for $300. Is that the going rate or is this a purchase I need to rethink based on my plane newbie level. Are these ever sold used? I like nice tools and would want a good one that will last for the long haul. Is this a good one to start off with? I have some other ones that were left to me out in the shop. I will get more info on them tomorrow.

[Mike Cutler]

I would like to learn to use a handplane - I am too dependent on power tools. Finally have some good chisels and now and some equipment to sharpen the tools with and now I want a good plane. Have been reading up on the bronze Lie Nielsen #4 and it looks beautiful. Most places have it for $300. Is that the going rate or is this a purchase I need to rethink based on my plane newbie level. Are these ever sold used? I like nice tools and would want a good one that will last for the long haul. Is this a good one to start off with? I have some other ones that were left to me out in the shop. I will get more info on them tomorrow.

I'll try to answer some of your questions

"Most places have it for $300. Is that the going rate?"
In my experience the LN planes seem to be very close in price between dealers. This may be an arrangement with LN to carry their planes. I've never seen huge price discrepancies. You may want to consider the LN 5, or 5 1/2, Jack Plane, first. A little more of an all 'round plane than the 4.

"is this a purchase I need to rethink based on my plane newbie level?"
Nope. The LN planes are fine planes. Out of the box you may have to adjust the throat, and the blade, but that's it.
I have quite a number of LN planes, and chisels and don't consider myself a handtool expert. A quality product is a quality product. LN's are definitiely quality products.

"Are these ever sold used?"
Yep they're on ebay and craiglist all the time.

"I like nice tools and would want a good one that will last for the long haul. Is this a good one to start off with?"
LN's are excellent planes, no matter what experience level. They'll last more than a lifetime if properly taken care of.

"I have some other ones that were left to me out in the shop."

???? You have LN planes that were left to you? or another maker.?

[Mike Heidrick]

"I have some other ones that were left to me out in the shop."

???? You have LN planes that were left to you? or another maker.?

Older planes and no LN ones. Sorry for that confussion. I may have one decent one in the bunch or so I have been told.

[gary Zimmel]

Mike

Merry Xmas and welcome to the slope.

The LN bronze #4 is a excellent plane. I find though, I use my 4 1/2 a lot more. The quality of all the LN tools is great and it takes just a little honing to get them scary sharp.

My first bench plane was the #4 in bronze and since then have found that they seem to multiply quite quickly.... so be carefull. I bet it won't be to long and you will need a plane till.

If you deside on the #4 get it with a coco tote and knob. (it will look even better)

[David Weaver]

At that price level, I would probably start with a 5 1/2. I started with a LN6, and I would probably start with a 5 1/2 instead - just because smoothing with a #6 can be an issue due to its length - if the stock isn't almost flat before you start. A couple inches fewer in the length would've been nice.

You can basically set it up so that you can smooth and joint with it, and it will be a lot more versatile than a #4.

You're doing what I did - and what others on here suggested - buy a LN plane and use it first, and you will be worlds more satisfied with your older planes because you'll have a gauge of what you can expect from them if they're properly fettled.

I don't use hand tools exclusively, but I sure don't sand much now - it's so much nicer to plane and scrape. So much less dust, and a fantastic shiny surface rather than a scuffed surface.

[Mark Stutz]

Quick, before it's too late, stop all this nonsense about hand planes!:D;) There. Don't ever say you weren't warned!:D:D Kinda like LAY'S potato chips...ya just can't stop with one!

Lots of debate on this topic...whether to go with new vs. vintage planes, and of course the woodie vs. metal debate. IMO, you won't go wrong with a new LN, or LV, for that matter. You can find them used, but often go for he same or even higher on ebay...lots of forum discussion about that as well.

IMO, the old vs. new debate in large part boils down to 3 factors. Do you have someone nearby, a mentor, that can show you the ropes, hands on? Do you have the time, and knowledge, to play with and tune up a vintage plane? and does the budget support a new plane like a LN. If the 3rd answer is yes, then I would go that route. This will let you know what a plane is capable of right off the bat. As your experience increases, you can take that $5 flea market Stanley from 1925, and make it do the same thing. It's a lot of fun. If someone to show you the ropes, it's even faster.

I'm a visual, hands on learner. If I can see someone do a task, I can pick it up fairly quickly. Reading about it is very laborious for me, so until I had a well tuned plane in hand I really struggled. That is why, to this day, I "blame" Dave Anderson for the growing collection of planes that I have!:D;):D

Lots of info in the archives...lots of different opinions...go with what suits your situation the best.

Merry Christmas.

Mark

[Eddie Darby]

"Buy the best and forget the rest!"

If you want to do Wood-Working, then go the LN route and you will have the best.

Budget tight? Then save your pennies and wait. In the long run you will be ahead of the game.

If you want to do Metal-Working, then don't buy LN because they are ready to go right out of the box, after a light honing of the blade.
Instead buy a run down EBay special or a flee market deal!:D Lots of work there to do, and in 10 or 15 years time or so, you get to do it all again, since the metal on these old planes is not as stable as LN planes, and will distort.

[Mike Cutler]

Older planes and no LN ones. Sorry for that confussion. I may have one decent one in the bunch or so I have been told.

Ahh.. For a minute I thought you had a huge stealth gloat going there.

Don't get rid of the old planes. I have a number of flea market specials that I use all the time.
Sometimes a rough cut board may have a hidden nail/staple, piece of metal, or a piece of quartz in it.( Yep, quartz!). Better to find out with a $10.00 plane, than a LN. I usually give the rough cut board the initial work with my "junkers".
Eventually though, you will need to learn to tune a plane. Flea market specials are good practice.

[John Dykes]

The cheapest place that I've seen to get LN planes is www.thebestthings.com (http://www.thebestthings.com). I've never gotten a LN from them. In fact, the only LN I own (iron #4) is from Woodcraft. I did get a type 14 Stanley #7 jointer from them since I was scared of trying my luck at ebay. It was better than I'd hoped for - so I trust them w/ a LN.

Regards,
jbd

[Larry Laffer]

re: learning to use a handplane, get some practice wood that is straight grained and easy to work, like poplar. Try to adjust the blade for the thinnest shaving you can get.

This'll get you started...
http://sawdustmaking.com/Hand%20Planes/hand_planes.htm

[Randal Stevenson]

Let me ask a question for those of you with both LN/LV and pretuned oldies from people like Clint Jones and Rarebear. Would one of those, be just or nearly as good, and cheaper, to both get him started, and allow him to look at what has been done for tuning a similar plane?

[Mark Stutz]

Let me ask a question for those of you with both LN/LV and pretuned oldies from people like Clint Jones and Rarebear. Would one of those, be just or nearly as good, and cheaper, to both get him started, and allow him to look at what has been done for tuning a similar plane?

In my opinion, yes. I think the main thing is to have something that will work for you right away. Less frustration means more time for play, and improvement, and besides, it greases the slope a lot better:D:eek:

Mark

[Chris Gombola]

I second the recommendation for thebestthings.com. They are right around the corner from me and have great prices and service.



The cheapest place that I've seen to get LN planes is www.thebestthings.com (http://www.thebestthings.com). I've never gotten a LN from them. In fact, the only LN I own (iron #4) is from Woodcraft. I did get a type 14 Stanley #7 jointer from them since I was scared of trying my luck at ebay. It was better than I'd hoped for - so I trust them w/ a LN.

Regards,
jbd

[Mike Cutler]

Let me ask a question for those of you with both LN/LV and pretuned oldies from people like Clint Jones and Rarebear. Would one of those, be just or nearly as good, and cheaper, to both get him started, and allow him to look at what has been done for tuning a similar plane?

Randall.
Probably would be a great way to start. The wood doesn't know, or care, the maker of the plane that's working it.
I don't have any "pre-tuned oldies", so to speak. Mine came from flea markets and junk booths at antique stores. A lot of elbow grease and cursing to learn how to make them work again I'll tell ya'.
I appreciate my LN's all the more for learning to rehab and tune flea market "Frankenplanes" (Dave Anderson term).

I had restricted my initial response to LN's, as that was what the OP was asking. Used planes however, are a very viable alternative to buying new.

Craftsman studios is another sourse for LN products. Prices are comparable to The Best things.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/lie-nielsenproducts.htm

[Marcus Ward]

I must respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks a LN is going to do a better job than a well tuned vintage stanley. Save your money and buy a refurb'd old stanley and learn to use it. I paid 12$ for my No. 4 1/2. I'll take the 288$ I saved on the LN and spend it on... more tools! I must also disagree that you'll have to fettle them again. Most of the ones I've bought, fettled ages ago by their original owners, are still flat and near perfect. Your mileage may vary but the idea that nothing but a LN will do is just rationalization for purchasing a ridiculously expensive hand tool. If you've got the cash, great, if not, there are cheaper equivalents.

[Zahid Naqvi]

When I got started in woodworking a few years ago I was limited by budget and experience/skill. But I didn't have any pressure to make anything, so I just purchased an old Stanley and completely took it apart. Cleaning and fettling each and every part. The first plane didn't come out perfect, although it was still quite good and I still use it. By the time I purchased the second Stanley (a #5) I knew exactly what each part did and how to tune all aspects of a plane due to the time I had spent with the first one.

I have also been fortunate to use the LV bevel up jack and I found it to be an excellent plane as well. There are pros and cons both way. Money not withstanding, if you go the LN way you will get an excellent tool which will be ready to go out of the box with minimum fettling/tuning. OTOH if you go the vintage Stanley route, you get to dissect a plane and completely understand the innerworkings due to the need to get it fine tuned. I enjoyed the process of rehabbing old planes so I'd probably do it again even if I could afford to buy LNs. I'd probably still buy the LV BU jack though.

[Mike Heidrick]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

[Randal Stevenson]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

Yes, measure the sole, as googling that number, shows it to be the patent number on at least two of their planes (18" number 6 comparable, and 24" number 8 comparable).
The Defiance isn't considered a good plane, and it is what I started out with (inherited). I did consider turning it into a scrub plane (never found any of those locally), until I got my LN 40 1/2 (birthday present). No mentor locally (most of the woodworkers I have known are gone, now the people I know are just diy'ers), which is why I brought up the used plane market and people like Clint Jones. Since you have two 4's, that would give you better ability to practice, I am still a bit nervous, as I can see myself overdoing it. Thanks all for the help and thanks for the original question!

[Tim Sproul]

..... the bronze Lie Nielsen #4 ..... Is this a good one to start off with?

I'd ask what you want a hand plane to do? You have the entire complement of power tools to build furniture so what is it that you're looking for a hand plane to do? The #4 will be good if you're looking to do surface prep by planing rather than sanding. You can also use a short plane like a #4 to clean up minor machining marks such as those from the tablesaw. Longer planes will provide different functions as well as some overlapping functions. Small little hand-sized block planes will offer something else too. Just like with power tools, different hand tools are best suited to different tasks.

[Mike Cutler]

OK, I had a couple of minutes between family today and rounded up the planes in the shop.

Looks like:
Two Stanley Bailey No 4s
A Defiance Stanley
A Miller Falls 1822520
A Stanley Bedrock 606 with corrugated sole
Two black stanley block planes
One Blue and orange block plane

The Miller falls is slightly larger than the No4 and is definately heavier built. I need to read up on planes (thanks for the link above!!). Do I measure the sole (bottom) to know the number of plane that it is?

Wow! You already have nice start to a plane collection. I think this was a stealth type gloat after all.;)

Here are some links to put you on your way to info overload.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=5867

In the 5th response to Julie's thread on tutorials you will find a host of articles by Bob Smalser on many things handtool related. Excellent tutorials on handplane restoration.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66858

and of course.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

[Steve Wargo]

I must respectfully disagree with anyone who thinks a LN is going to do a better job than a well tuned vintage stanley. Save your money and buy a refurb'd old stanley and learn to use it. I paid 12$ for my No. 4 1/2. I'll take the 288$ I saved on the LN and spend it on... more tools! .

I will respectfully disagree with Marcus on this one. The LN is certainly a more versatile plane than a vintage #4. It weighs more, is built to be more durable, has an adjustable frog (very important in a finish smoother), has the ability to add a high angle frog and comes with a much thicker chipbreaker and iron. All of these make the plane far superior to the vintage Stanley #4. Now if you're talking about a Stanley 604 then you only have the advantages of the thicker iron and chipbreaker. But by the time you purchase a 604 and add the latter two items you're about at a wash in cost. There is no doubt that the Stanley will do a great job on many of our woods, but try smoothing cocobolo or ebony with a stock Stanley tuned to the hilt. It just isn't happening.

Mike, There is no doubt that the cheaper way to go is just tune what you have. You certainly do have a good start in you planes. I would probably take an hour to see how it goes. Sharpen, flatten, clean and test. IF thing don't go well, you can look for someone local who may be willing to help or just get the LN. I've never, ever talked to any one who was sorry for purchasing an LN Smoother.

[Marcus Ward]

It weighs more, is built to be more durable,


Most of my planes are ~100 years old. Beyond that level of durability it's really academic, isn't it?



has an adjustable frog (very important in a finish smoother),


The regular #4 has an adjustable frog too. It just requires an extra step. Frankly I have several and have them all adjusted differently. Easier than taking the time to readjust, and at the price of stanley #4s I can afford to have several.



has the ability to add a high angle frog and


Just put a 10 deg back bevel on one of the aforementioned #4s and voila, high angle! Amazing. And since I can afford to have several, I don't have to swap frogs or blades for certain woods.



comes with a much thickercomes with a much thicker chipbreaker and iron.

Hock blades and chipbreakers are quite affordable. At the going rate for a good #4 I could buy 4, put hock blades and chipbreakers in them all for the price of a LN.



All of these make the plane far superior to the vintage Stanley #4.


I'm not sure I'd say far superior. Maybe a little superior.



but try smoothing cocobolo or ebony with a stock Stanley tuned to the hilt. It just isn't happening.


I'll keep that in mind next time I'm planing an ebony fretboard with a vintage stanley.


I've never, ever talked to any one who was sorry for purchasing an LN Smoother.

Heck no! They're friggin awesome! Besides, admitting you didn't like it would cause lethal levels of cognitive dissonance. :)

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. LN makes incredible goods, I'm just contrarian and trying to present the other side of the picture. ;)

[Steve Wargo]

There is an abundance of Stanley #4 planes available in the wild because there were so many of them made. It was a common tool in most households 90 years ago. The reason so many of them have survived is because there were so many to begin with, and were used for menial tasks like planing a door so it wouldn't stick. I've seen many of them with chipped mouths, side, lever caps and some even broken in half. They are not more durable than Ductile Steel or Bronze. I'm aware that Stanley #4 has an adjustable frog but there was again a reason that Stanley Produced the Bedrock Series of planes. Perhaps I should have stated that it is much easier to adjust an LN plane than a Stanley #4. A 10 degree back bevel does make the approach angle of a 45deg plane higher... but it also causes wear on the back bevel during the pull stroke of the plane. Now you have two angles to touch up and often the back bevel requires more work than the primary bevel do to nicks in the edge created by the thinner edge of the iron. Back bevels wear harder and require more maintenance and are probably not a real good idea for newbies. Hock blades and chipbreakers are affordable and certainly a good way to upgrade standard Stanley planes. But still run you $70 to $90 with shipping or tax and that adds up quick. To say a LN #4 is a little better is an understatement at best. For a newbie I think that the LN's are a great way to go. Some guys simply don't have the time or knowledge to fettle planes and make them work. This is one of the contributing factors to people shyng away from hand planes. If you can take the learning curve out of the equation then I'm all for it. As far as the ebony fretboard goes... I'd love to see pics. I rarely have luck with ebony, but I'm just a hack. I agree that we will agree to disagree on this one Marcus.

[Eddie Darby]

I must also disagree that you'll have to fettle them again. Most of the ones I've bought, fettled ages ago by their original owners, are still flat and near perfect. Your mileage may vary but the idea that nothing but a LN will do is just rationalization for purchasing a ridiculously expensive hand tool. If you've got the cash, great, if not, there are cheaper equivalents.

I am glad that you didn't have to fettle your planes, but others have, and unless there is a way to be able to pick a stable plane over one that is still settling, then the possibility of future work exists. I have had to do this to planes that I have owned, twice in some cases.

I guess it comes down to how many planes do you want to own. Some people would enjoy owning several planes of the same type. Most people do not start out owning the top level tools, but if they get past the potholes and bumps, they usually end-up owning them.

It usually takes, for some people, a little while to learn to "Buy the Best and Forget the Rest." While others prefer to have less than the best. It does not matter in the long run, as the only thing that changes for someone who finally decides to own the top tools is the total amount of money they spent getting there. But hey, where do some of those tools that are well fettled on EBay come from?

As for "ridiculously expensive" I think you would have to agree that what is expensive to one person, maybe cheap to another.
I would say that unless you want to prove that all Holtey plane owners are somehow missing a marble or two, each person has to decide what is the best route for them personally to take based on who they are and what they want.

Let me see if I can find a Holtey on EBay?

[Marcus Ward]

It usually takes, for some people, a little while to learn to "Buy the Best and Forget the Rest."

It's kind of poor to see the sorts of attitudes prominent in the powertool forum invading this one. The only question worth a squirt is: are you doing good woodworking? Are you practicing the craft? Who cares how you got there. Camera wankers are the same way. They ignore the images produced in favor of the camera brand. :\

[Eddie Darby]

In a pinch, I would not hesitate to put a back bevel on a bench plane blade to get the job done, but when you think ahead, a high angle frog makes a lot of sense.

Cost of a 4 1/2 blade from LN $45, cost of high angle frog from LN $75.
So for $30 more I can get the performance of two planes from one plane, instead of having two blades. Not going to have to break the ol piggy bank to do that.
Want to make that three planes? Go ahead and get the 55* frog while you're at it.

All you need is one blade.
I don't want to waste my time putting back bevels onto plane blades, and then taking them off. I also don't want the waste of metal and abrasives doing it.

I guess it depends on whether you want to work wood or fool around with blades?

At the very least it is nice to have this option in the future to pursue if you decide to not do it right off the bat!

[Eddie Darby]

It's kind of poor to see the sorts of attitudes prominent in the powertool forum invading this one. The only question worth a squirt is: are you doing good woodworking? Are you practicing the craft? Who cares how you got there. Camera wankers are the same way. They ignore the images produced in favor of the camera brand. :\

Are you trying to say "Don't buy the best." ? LOL

Have you had a change of heart?

[Marcus Ward]

I just want the new guys to know the cheap seats are pretty nice too. I'd hate for someone to get the impression you can't even start using handtools for less than several hundred dollars. It might keep some promising young Tage Frid from ever giving it a shot. This elitest baloney leaves me ill.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Just a point of warning guys. I realize that many of the latter comments in this thread are done in fun and in jest with tongue in check, but please be careful. Particularly when emoticaons aren't used, things can be taken the wrong way and folks can get offended. Please watch how you word things, and if your're going to take a swipe at someone, adding one of the funny faces helps let folks know that you're yanking their chain. Example to follow.

Well Mr. Stutz, as a qualified medical professional you should know enough to avoid the addiction. The "blame" is yours for dropping by and letting me entice you.:D Merry Christmas from your friendly neighborhood pusher.

[Mike Cutler]

I just want the new guys to know the cheap seats are pretty nice too. I'd hate for someone to get the impression you can't even start using handtools for less than several hundred dollars. It might keep some promising young Tage Frid from ever giving it a shot. This elitest baloney leaves me ill.

Marcus.

For my end, I understand exactly where you're coming from. My answers though were restricted to the parameters defined in the OP's ( Mike's) initial opening thread concerning the percieved and accepted quality of the LN #4. (with some links included in a subsequent post to help with his other planes)

Sometimes I'm not sure which is more intimidating to someone starting out, or relearning handtools. The price of an LN, or a LV, or the discussions on the care and tuning of a handplane.
Elitism can exist on either side of the debte. Whether it's having the $$$$ to spend on a new LN, or the mastery of the seemingly arcane field of handtools,their care, and use. Both have their own aura of snobbery that can be exercised.
Add in the confusion of sharpening, and all of the different ways that can be done, along with the expense that can be incurred with just sharpening equipment. It can get daunting, quickly. It becomes much easier to let LN and LV hook you up, so to speak, with a plane that is ready to go right out of the box with a lifetime warranty, and a return policy. No stones to purchase, no Tormek grinders, No granite plates and reams of sandpaper, no special jigs to set angles. Just take it out of the box and use it. There's nothing wrong with purchasing confidence and peace of mind.

Inevitably though, all planes will require maintenance, it's inescapable.( unless the plane is never used) Be it one of my flea market specials, a LN, or a Holtey. They all require care. That's why I still believe a person needs to eventually understand how a plane works, and how to tune one. Inexpensive planes are good for learning this on, and having around for jobs you wouldn't want to use a high $$ plane on.

I enjoy using my LN's. They're a high quality product for the money. I also enjoy the personal satisfaction associated with using my fleamarket "frankenplanes". Knowing that I took a collection of parts and made them into functioning tools is very gratifying. Whatthe heck,, it's ego boosting too. ;)
In the end the wood doesn't care the price of the plane,the pedigree of the steel, or what country it came from. It's a blade fixed in a geometric relationship to a solid plane yet to be defined. No matter which route a person takes to accomplish the task.The end result is hopefully the same.
Sorry for the ramble. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Marcus Ward]

Mike, I agree with everything you said, and I guess I should make clear that my responses aren't always just for the OP, sometimes it so if someone else comes along and reads the thread they get some balance to the whole thing. Maybe I should just shut up. ;)

As for a LN #4 being awesome from the box, I direct you to this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=728318&postcount=31

I realize it's a small voice in a swarm of positive initial reviews, but it does help me make my point. :D It's all good, I'm not offended.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, I agree with everything you said, and I guess I should make clear that my responses aren't always just for the OP, sometimes it so if someone else comes along and reads the thread they get some balance to the whole thing. Maybe I should just shut up. ;)

As for a LN #4 being awesome from the box, I direct you to this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=728318&postcount=31

I realize it's a small voice in a swarm of positive initial reviews, but it does help me make my point. :D It's all good, I'm not offended.

John's a guy I like.

I recieved Three LN planes for christmas this year. A 5, 6, and a 7. I took them completely apart also, honed and sharpened them too, after I made sure that they were working out of the box. I'm kinda anal that way though. They all required some minor adjustments to the throat to suit me. they probably didn't really need it, but I did it anyway. It was comical. I'd take a few swipes with my fleamarket specials, and a few with the LN's, back to the junkers, and repeat with the LN's. I guess I'm still a skeptic at heart, or I was trying to see if my stuff was as good as their stuff.:D,;)

Never shut up. No one learns if no one speaks.;)

PS. If you have some tips on setting up and sharpening a Model 98 & 99 side rabbet. I could use them. These planes are a little persnicity.

Mike

[Mike Heidrick]

Ok, Well I am trying to live up to my new years resolution and use more handtools.

I have decided to try out a block plane first. $299 for the 4.5 LN is steep for me so I thought I would wait for my BDay month and the 10% off sales at WC. Well I started reading truing block planes and about hock blades. Then a buddy then sold me a Record 60.5 block plane for $25.

Today I added a hock blade to it. I also bought a Hock for the 606 while I was at WC. Tomorrow I will work on sharpening them.

I also added a Japanese pull saw and the veritas marking gauge to the list.

I really want to play with hand cut dovetails. Need to learn to hand saw first.

Next month (in a couple weeks actually) is teh St. louis Wood Working show. Maybe I will add some hand tools then. I held the 60.5 LN today and it was awesome (but to be honest off the Wood craft shelf the adjustable mouth was not at all smooth). Hope to try out the Veritas at the WWShow.

[Sam Yerardi]

First off, let me start by saying I would love to have an LN or such plane. I'm not trying to start a war here or offend anyone's opinion. What I'm going to say is just my humble opinion and nothing more. I don't think I would suggest to someone new to woodworking to wait until you can afford to buy an LN before you start learning how to use a plane. I'm an old-school guy and I've always been of the opinion that I will buy the best tools I can afford but I won't try to buy my game. In other words, it's like buying a $1000 set of golf clubs and you're just learning the game and have never even hit a ball yet. A lot of people will start out having the idea I'll play better with better clubs. That's true to a point but some people that take this route will miss the fundamentals and give up when the new clubs don't miraculously teach them to play golf. If you can afford to do that then that's great - I'm happy for you and I'm not against it. And a new or good used LN would be good for someone to start with. On the other side of the coin though, I hear some that say a newcomer shouldn't have to spend time learning to set up a plane, etc. I completely disagree with that. That's part of learning HOW to use a hand plane. And it's really not that difficult to learn. As a matter of fact, I will even go so far as to say that if you can't learn to do that you'll never succeed with hand planes. I didn't have anyone to show me, but I did a lot of reading, etc., and eventually I started getting better results. I'm still learning, trying new suggestions, etc. Even as some have indicated here, you may still have to adjust or set up an LN plane out of the box. Granted, the new plane may allow the new woodworker to start making shavings sooner and that's great. I guess I just have a problem with the myth (at least in my mind) that adjusting and setting up a new plane is too hard for someone new to learn. At some point that new LN is going to need its iron sharpened. As soon as it is removed from the plane, the cap taken off, lateral adjustment moved from where it was originally, etc., the new woodworker is now faced with having to put it all back together. Like the radios I tore apart when I was young. IMHO, it just makes more sense for the new guy to get an old Stanley, learn how to tune it and start using it with the thought one day I'll be able to afford a really nice plane. I just think waiting until you can afford it is the wrong approach.

[Mike Cutler]

Ok, Well I am trying to live up to my new years resolution and use more handtools.

I have decided to try out a block plane first. $299 for the 4.5 LN is steep for me so I thought I would wait for my BDay month and the 10% off sales at WC. Well I started reading truing block planes and about hock blades. Then a buddy then sold me a Record 60.5 block plane for $25.

Today I added a hock blade to it. I also bought a Hock for the 606 while I was at WC. Tomorrow I will work on sharpening them.

I also added a Japanese pull saw and the veritas marking gauge to the list.

I really want to play with hand cut dovetails. Need to learn to hand saw first.

Next month (in a couple weeks actually) is teh St. louis Wood Working show. Maybe I will add some hand tools then. I held the 60.5 LN today and it was awesome (but to be honest off the Wood craft shelf the adjustable mouth was not at all smooth). Hope to try out the Veritas at the WWShow.

Ahh, well now, there ya' go down the slippery slope. :D,;)

[Mike Heidrick]

Tonight I went out and used the record 60.5. I used the hock blade as it was sharper than the included record blade and I wanted to try it out right away. It worked awesome on my test block of wood. I really like it. Not sure I will get the LN now for awhile. I am going to practice shapening the record blade to learn to do it right. Actually will learn on one of the newer used stanley block planes and then the record.

So I then I was having fun and completely tore down the Bedrock 606 and cleaned everything up. I found this plane in the house when we moved in. I was able to save everything except the threaded rod that went through the tote. I had bought the rosewood replacement handle set from woodcraft for it and also a hock blade for the 606 so I had a new threaded rod. I got everthing cleaned up and put back together. It actually cut really nicely after just putting it back together.

Tomorrow I will check both planes for flatness and lap if necessary.

I have two questions:

Do you lap corregated soles just like flat soles?

Also - the front knob of the 606 is not original. The brass screw down cap that holds the knob on is a bit proud of the knob when the knob is fully seated too the plane. What is the fix for this?

[Marcus Ward]

Either remove some wood from inside the knob so it screws down tighter or shorten the rod, whichever is the problem.

Yes, you CAN lap the soles of corrugated planes like you do regular ones, but if it's cutting nicely, don't worry about it. Seriously. Lapping plane soles is wanking unless it's causing you problems. I would just avoid that whole business if possible.

Yes, you can skip the LN planes. The 606 is the same design, Traut's patent, that the LNs are. You can even get away with the original blades! *gasp* Say it ain't so, Marcus! Seriously, they do a fine job. People get into this whole 'what if x is better?' race without even caring what the end result is - does the furniture look any better with a 300$ plane? Nope. Go make something. :)

[Richard Niemiec]

Wow, what a thread. That being said....

I think that Sam has put his finger on the real issue (you know, the one that morphed from the OP's question, which by the way is one of the things I like about this place...), and that is for a person new to hand tools, is spending $300 or more on a first bench plane the way to go.

Well, while I am not a charter member of the "I've Got More Money Than Sense Club," I do own several LN and LV planes (which I call the "retail" planes) and spend a goodly sum of money acquiring them. I also spent a good 4 or 5 years learning to understand, take apart, sharpen, fettle and flatten a variety of Stanley, Miller's Falls and Craftsman planes. The analogy to golf clubs is appropriate in my view, a retail LN or LV ain't gonna make you a better woodworker per se, and while we all know why we like them, I think you need to be able to appreciate why they might be a better choice.

That being said, my 4 1/2 user is a Millers Falls; my 78 is Craftsman (Sargent), my #5 is a wartime Stanley, my #7 is a Stanley over 100 years old, and my #3 and #4 are type 11 Stanley. My go to low angle block was a Sargent, but someone gave me a LN 60 1/2 as a gift and so I sold it. Some have new Hock blades, some don't, because they don't need 'em. Now, is a LN 5 1/2 in my future, probably. Maybe I 'll splurge for a #2, or a low angle jack from LV, but frankly I'll do this because you simply can't find reasonably priced Stanley versions of these planes without spending your life on ebay and even then you can get burned with hairline cracks; same with scraper planes (the geometry is just beyond me for restoring the rusty old examples I find at fleas and garage sales, so I bought a LV and am pleased as punch). Same with a #66, hard to find with all the blades and fences, so I sold the Stanley and bought a LN for a few dollars more, but gee, ain't it real pretty......

But the point is, and someone else made it as well, is that sooner or later you have to sharpen a blade, tune the chipbreaker flat to the iron, learn about slop in the adjusting screws, and IMHO the best way to learn how to use a plane is to get with someone who can show you, and spend time with your tools. Now, I can also understand the theory that everyone should buy a new, high end plane so you can see what a really fine tool can do. That has some merit. There are also the folks who rightly say their time is worth more than fettling and they'd rather make things than fiddle with tools. That's got some merit too. I'm somewhere in the middle, and I think that part of the hobby is learning about and getting to really know your tools, and if you approach it from that perspective, the hobby becomes more than the end product of that end table or chairside chest, but the journey to the end product. RN

[Marcus Ward]

Wow, good post. dot dot (ham radio nerd stuff).

[Anthony Fields]

One of my early planes was a Buck Bros. My regrets. Man, it's agony using it. Some of my fun planes to use are Stanley or Craftsman block planes. I can't afford the real nice planes like the LN or the LV's. Not if I want 3 of every other tool I own! :eek: Which I have nearly achieved. Don't ask why, that's another thread. Rebuilding two houses does that to you.
Two of the planes I would want though are a Stanley #3, and 5. (Of course I'm sliding now)...
I've had ok luck with the Stanleys. They are not for real grooming type work but for roughing. I have to agree with Marcus in many ways. Better to get more tools,

I've actually learned alot here about planes, and care of them and what to avoid. And, I can only say Thank You to the contributors sharing their knowledge. It's only good if we pass it on. Thanks again. And now I'll leave ya's all alone and read more.

:)

[Marcus Ward]

I've had ok luck with the Stanleys. They are not for real grooming type work but for roughing. I have to agree with Marcus in many ways. Better to get more tools,

Your planes are not tuned correctly if you can't do anything but rough with them. That, or you're using modern ones which, near as I can tell, can't be tuned. Seriously, I can produce as fine a surface with any old stanley as anyone else can with a 300$ plane.

[Lee Koepke]

This has been a really good thread for me to read. I am in the same boat as the OP. I signed up for a class this coming monday for the basics of sharpening. Step 1 in learning the tool (from what I have read). I am all about having the RIGHT tools to work with, and I figured spending the money on a sharpening class was better suited than buying a cheap plane and not getting anywhere.

Thanks again for the open discussion that helps us beginners.

[Anthony Fields]

Your planes are not tuned correctly if you can't do anything but rough with them. That, or you're using modern ones which, near as I can tell, can't be tuned. Seriously, I can produce as fine a surface with any old stanley as anyone else can with a 300$ plane.


Understood. But, I only expect the plane to do so much of the job, not end it with that only tool. I can surely look into more detailing of the plane as you suggest and will. But, the tool itself is limited without other tools in the shop, saws, sanders, etc.

*Remember I'm a newbie. Just learnin'. And still don't think I need a $700.00 plane to do what I'm attempting.

[Marcus Ward]

You don't, you just need about 2$ worth of sandpaper. :) I don't sand anymore, I just plane it smooth, and scrape it sometimes if the grain is a bit recalcitrant.

[Grant Lasson]

Mike, (http://www.finetoolj.com/)

I started with a L-N #4 in bronze. It's a beautiful tool. Purchased it from the Fine Tool Journal (you can Google for the address--I'm not sure if the TOS allows address posting). The price was less than you mentioned and it included shipping.

That said, your first plane depends on your eventual uses. I have come to use my LV BU jack the most. The LV BU jointer almost as much as the jack.

I'd also really encourage you to think about bevel up (BU) planes vs. std block planes. I find the BU planes to be more versatile. For example, I just purchased extra plane irons with different bevel angles rather than one high angle frog.

Nevertheless, I love the L-N.