HF Dust Collector CFM????

[Greg Muller]

I have a chance to get an almost new Harbor Freight 2 HP dust collector for $70.00. Normally they sell for around $150.00. It runs well...but I really should get a unit that pulls around 1100 CFM + for my needs.
A) What CFM do these pull?
B) Should I????

All comments would be appreciated...

[Dave Sweeney]

Harbor Freight claims a rating of 1600CFM's. Taking exaggeration into account, you're probably safe to assume that it will provide at least the 1100 you're looking for. I've had this DC for a number of years now and have been nothing but satisfied with it. If the unit is in as good of shape as you said it is I'd jump all over it for that price.

[Bruce Benjamin]

It's a bargain at $150. It's a steal at $70. Mine has worked perfectly for a few years now with the addition of the Wynn filter cartridge.

Bruce

[Art Mann]

Greg,

You haven't provided enough information for someone to give you a good answer. Dave is probably close to right with his cfm estimate, but only under zero static pressure conditions. By the time you incorporate this DC into a central system with tens of feet of duct and several turns, the flow will drop to 600 - 700 cfm or less. The Delta machinery website has a worksheet you can use to estimate the static pressure loss of your particular system. Then, you can go to the website of a name brand manufacturer that has units similar to the HF and use a performance graph to get a rough estimate of the real performance you can expect. My assessment of this DC and others of similar size is that they will do a good job if you use them on only 1 machine at a time and keep the runs short and straight. Unless you use a very short length of 5 or 6 inch flex hose (< 10 feet) and run it directly to one machine, there is no chance of achieving 1100 cfm.

Art

Edit: I think that is a good price for a pretty good machine as long as you realize its limitations.

Edit 2: The 2 hp rating is a complete lie. Even the most efficient 2 hp motors (which the HF is not) will not produce close to 2 hp on a 120V 20A circuit.

[Steven Wilson]

Hmmm, here's the specs from Harbor Frieghts web site.

Motor: 2 HP, 110V, 14 amps, single phase
Bag capacity: 70 gal.
Air flow: 1600 CFM
Single stage
Filtration: 30 micron
Hose inlet: 4''

A 2HP motor that is not, 14A 110V??? That motor is under 1.5HP. 1600CFM??? No way does that machine make 1600CFM as it stands, if you remove the bags then maybe just maybe it's 1600CFM (probably under 1100). At the intake, with bags on, it's probably around 800CFM. Add any DC piping system and you would be lucky to get 500 CFM at the tool. Now, 500 CFM is fine for collecting chips but not for collecting dust. Of course the 30 micron bags on it make it a good dust pump / chip collector. If you go with this wear a respirator. The site does not list the impellor size, it's probably quite small (11") and will never move enough air to be adequate.

[Ralph Barhorst]

Yadda! Yadda! Yadda!

Above answers are all right, but I also have one and they work great for the price. If you want to spend a $1,000, you can get a really good one.

In the meantime, buy the HF one and the Wynn filter and I'll bet you will be perfectly happy with the purchase.

[Tim Marks]

come on, Steve. You have been here long enough to know not to bait the HFDC police like that.

Not to mention that you are violating the common curtesy principle, where you aren't allowed to talk negatively about something you haven't owned.

1. The HFDC is better then nothing.
2. If you can afford a great DC, then buy a different one.
3. If you don't feel you can part with $500-600 for a great DC, then buy this one.
4. Don't expect to run through more then one blast gate at a size.
5. 15' of 4" tubing is all you can get. I think if you hook it up to a 6" run, that the velocity will drop enough for dust to settle out. Probably max of 5" runs, but I use 4" PVC and haven't had a problem with a 15' run of PVC.
6. You MUST replace the bag, I put a Wynn canister fon mine for another $90-130 depending on whether you choose paper or fabric.
7. It is not 2 HP, it is only 1.5 HP with a small 9.5-11" impeller.
8. Yes, it does a great job picking up DUST and shavings from one tool at a time (sorry Steve, but you don't have one, so you don't get to make claims like that, you are wrong).

Bottom line, $70 is an amazing deal for the bottom of the line DC.

[Jim Becker]

Harbor Freight claims a rating of 1600CFM's. Taking exaggeration into account, you're probably safe to assume that it will provide at least the 1100 you're looking for.

I doubt it will develop 1100 CFM or even close to it. Typical performance of machines like this is about half of the factory free-air rating and that with optimal duct work based on anecdotal reports. (6" in this case)

Oh, that 4" inlet limits it to about 300-350 CFM...that's what can fit in a 4" pipe at typical velocities.

[Steven Wilson]

1. The HFDC is better then nothing.
At collecting chips, yes. But otherwise it's crap. Wear a respirator.


2. If you can afford a great DC, then buy a different one.
3. If you don't feel you can part with $500-600 for a great DC, then buy this one.

If you can't afford to do it correctly then wear a respirator. The specs on this machine preclude it from picking up the fines, regarless of what filter you run on it. Of course it's always a good idea to kid yourself into thinking that you're doing something useful.


4. Don't expect to run through more then one blast gate at a size.
5. 15' of 4" tubing is all you can get. I think if you hook it up to a 6" run, that the velocity will drop enough for dust to settle out. Probably max of 5" runs, but I use 4" PVC and haven't had a problem with a 15' run of PVC.

If it can only handle 15' of 4" PVC then it's a pretty pathetic DC. Of course by going with 4" duct your only developing 350CFM maximum. Only the terminaly ignorant would believe that they're collecting dust. Chips yes, dust no.


6. You MUST replace the bag, I put a Wynn canister fon mine for another $90-130 depending on whether you choose paper or fabric.
7. It is not 2 HP, it is only 1.5 HP with a small 9.5-11" impeller.

You don't really need to replace the bag. Since you're not pulling enough CFM to capture the fine dust that settles in your lungs it doesn't really matter what you put on as a filter. The fines are just being pumped in your shop. Wear a respirator. Of course if you want to waste more money by adding a canister go ahead. Enjoy the false sense of security. But if you want to do it properly either get a real DC (one with enough real CFM to get the fines back for your filter to filter) or wear a respirator.


8. Yes, it does a great job picking up DUST and shavings from one tool at a time (sorry Steve, but you don't have one, so you don't get to make claims like that, you are wrong).

Bottom line, $70 is an amazing deal for the bottom of the line DC.

Hint, it may pick up the chips for you but it isn't getting the dust you think it's getting. But hey, if you want to amuse yourself by thinking you have the greatest thing since sliced bread then have at it. For $70 it's probably a good deal for the motor and the start/stop switch. Get a buffing mandrel from Grizzly and you'll have yourself a nice buffing station. Then go out and get a real DC, single stage or cyclone, just something with an impellor that will actually get some air moving. You should take a couple of bucks and buy a decent respirator - you're lungs will thank you for it.

[Abe Low]

The title says it all.

[Tim Marks]

You don't really need to replace the bag. Since you're not pulling enough CFM to capture the fine dust that settles in your lungs it doesn't really matter what you put on as a filter....Of course if you want to waste more money by adding a canister go ahead. Enjoy the false sense of security...You should take a couple of bucks and buy a decent respirator
The stock bag puts out a fine dust everywhere. The filter does not, and doubles the airflow because of the larger surface area. The dust collector keeps my floors clean, and works for collection from one tool at a time. And yes, I have a respirator, because I am not a fool (and it cost more then a couple of bucks, because I am not a fool).

Yes I would like a cyclone... and came very close to buying one. Now I am glad I did not because I am reduced to a one car garage for a shop and there is no room or power for one. When I move again in a year or so (hopefully for the last time, since my job has moved me 9 times, frequently coast to coast in 15 years), I will get one (and not the plastic one either, which should make Steven happy). But for now it works great.

And even if you DO have the best cycone with the best "penz approved" system, you should still wear a respirator. You are fooling yourself if you think the best DC system in the world is keeping your air breathable. My grandfather died of asbestosis; I am pretty sensitive to the effects of breathing dust.

[Randal Stevenson]

You don't really need to replace the bag. Since you're not pulling enough CFM to capture the fine dust that settles in your lungs it doesn't really matter what you put on as a filter. The fines are just being pumped in your shop. Wear a respirator. Of course if you want to waste more money by adding a canister go ahead. Enjoy the false sense of security. But if you want to do it properly either get a real DC (one with enough real CFM to get the fines back for your filter to filter) or wear a respirator.




While you should save up to get a better one, this IS an improvement over a shop vac, especially on some pieces of equipment (and part of the reason people initially upgrade, besides budget).
But I think Steve fails in his point on this one. The Cannister, is a two part upgrade. The cannister filter (to get the air intake up) and better bags. While this won't increase the motor or impeller size, this does help THE FAMILY. As particles float, and if your shop is in a basement or garage where a furnace is, part of them will still make it into the home heating/cooling circulation thing past its filters.
One other thing that this does that cyclones STILL do not, is fit. Some of us have size restrictions (6' ceilings in my case) that preclude a purchased cyclone (I still need to try to sit and resize one).
Another reason for me that the EZ works better (can use with my shop vac and a mini cyclone). I can't use a planer again till spring (use it outside).

[Al Killian]

I have this hooked up to 25' of 6" stove pipe and does a great job of collecting the dust and chips. The upgrades that I made where bottom is a garbage can and the top page is a .5 micron. If you know of a better value for the money let me know. I even do my sanding on my RAS table to help keep down the dust in the air.

[Art Mann]

Suffice it to say that there are a lot of intelligent and well educated people that do not share the opinions of Steven Wilson/Bill Pentz. So far as I know, neither of these individuals is an industrial hygienist or anything of the sort. My opinion is that the HF dust collector can help reduce the problem of chips and dust in the woodshop with an adequate filter. It is not as good as an Oneida cyclone, but it doesn't cost as much either.

[Phil Thien]

For collection of ALL the fines, you do need a lot of CFM's (twice more than the HF can do). But just because you can't get 'em all doesn't mean you should just give-up on getting any of them!

There is nothing magical about fines. They are actually easier to entrain in an airstream than chips.

The problem is, the HF's standard bags will pass much of the fines it collects. So you'll want to upgrade the filter (probably to a canister--the Wynn seems popular).

The 2nd problem is, the fines will tend to plug the filter media on the canister more frequently than they would if (for example) you had a good cyclone.

So, you'll just have to clean it more often. It is the price you pay for woodworking. Big deal.

But don't let anyone tell you that a properly configured HF won't help at all with fines. That is just nonsense.

[Greg Muller]

I appreciate all of your opinions, and facts. Apparently, I should have included a bit more info.

I will run one tool at a time since there is only one of me...
The collector itself will be outside, actually in a shed attached to my shop that also has good ventilation. This leaves the fines out there, not in the shop and reduces the noise. The shed has a central height of 10'.
I want to use about 8 feet of 6" PVC with 3 blast gates for 4" connections to 2 permanent tools and 1 that can be interchanged between my remaining tools.

Anything else?


Thank you all!!!!

Oh, and have a merry CHRISTmas!!!!:)

[Rob Will]

Edit 2: The 2 hp rating is a complete lie. Even the most efficient 2 hp motors (which the HF is not) will not produce close to 2 hp on a 120V 20A circuit.

They must be using Chinese AMPS to calculate Chinese Horsepower:rolleyes:.


Rob

[Tim Marks]

Edit 2: Even the most efficient 2 hp motors (which the HF is not) will not produce close to 2 hp on a 120V 20A circuit.

Let's check some numbers:

2 HP x746 Watts/Hp = 1492 watts
1492 watts/115 V = 12.97 amps (hmmmm)

Assuming a 70% efficient motor -> 12.97/0.70 = 18.5 amps

So yes, you can run a 2 Hp motor with typical efficiencies off a 20 amp CB (all though you will trip it on start-up surge).

A quick look at the Leeson website shows that this is pretty accurate; Leeson shows high efficiency motors (85%) running at 16.4 amps, and regular efficiency motors at 18.4-20 amps.

You are much better off running anything above 1.5Hp on a 230V circuit... I don't think I have any 115V motor over 1.5 Hp in my shop (except for the HFDC:D:D:D)

[Ed Costello]

My goodness............that thing sounds dangerous......maybe you should stop woodworking of any kind and go sit in the house!!!!!!!:eek:. My suggestion would be to get it, set it up. As long as you understand what it is and is not doing you are fine. When you can afford to upgrade do it.

Cheers,
Ed

[Art Mann]

Let's check some numbers:

2 HP x746 Watts/Hp = 1492 watts
1492 watts/115 V = 12.97 amps (hmmmm)

Assuming a 70% efficient motor -> 12.97/0.70 = 18.5 amps

So yes, you can run a 2 Hp motor with typical efficiencies off a 20 amp CB (all though you will trip it on start-up surge).

A quick look at the Leeson website shows that this is pretty accurate; Leeson shows high efficiency motors (85%) running at 16.4 amps, and regular efficiency motors at 18.4-20 amps.

You are much better off running anything above 1.5Hp on a 230V circuit... I don't think I have any 115V motor over 1.5 Hp in my shop (except for the HFDC:D:D:D)

Don't forget to account for the power factor and starting current!

[Greg Muller]

Thanks Ed.
I have to remember that there are Pentz-iacs out there... some dust collection is better than none and my wallet allows only so much right now.
I think that my plan will work and someday I can upgrade. Since my collector will be outside the shop, I think I should be okay. I just needed to know if the HF DC will pull the dust through my setup (described in my 9:45 follow-up post), no more, no less.

Thank you all!!!