Is Separate Equal? and Ecogate

[FRITZ STOOP]

As the MM16 motors its way West, my mind has moved on to other aspects of my new shop.
I have a Makita 2040 planer (which has been an incredible workhorse for many years) that I rebuilt recently and a 6" Grizzly jointer which comes up short (pun intended) fairly frequently. If i were to upgrade them, is a combo machine feasible? I have 800 sf now which seems like an aircraft hangar up against my garage, but space will always count big. Thoughts please. And...

Dust collection starts with a JDS 2hp sucker and I am thinking about ecogate controls. My previous system, Nasal hair, which should not be confused with cilia of the nasal cavity, which are the microscopic cellular strands that, unlike macroscopic nasal hair, draw mucus up toward the oropharynx via their coordinated, back-and-forth beating (OUCH!) was killing me.

So, do ecogates work and are they worth the expense.

Happy Holidays!

[Phil Harding]

I can certainly testify that Ecogate does work but I guess the value they offer depends upon you. I have a 3 HP Super Gorilla and every machine in my shop is connected to it through 4", 5", or 6" Ecogates and two Greenboxes connected in parallel. I have 12 gates. I have mine wired so that when a machine starts it opens the gate and turns on the cyclone. I 've heard of others who have their systems setup so that the cyclone is controlled by a remote control switch and the Ecogate only controls the opening and closing of the gates.

The advantage - I don't have to worry about remembering to open and close gates when I start a machine. Maybe I'm lazy and a bit of a techno-nerd so I'm comfortable with automation. But in a small shop like mine it certainly is overkill.

I got lucky earlier this year when I found a clearing house that was auctioning 5" and 6" Ecogates on eBay. I got gates between $50 and $100 each.

-- Phil

[Jim Becker]

Ecogates do work for those who install them. Personally, I have one centrally located switch in my shop that controls the contactor that is used to turn my cyclone on and off. I bagged remotes, etc., a couple years ago. That $2.50 switch made more sense to me for this function and in my 21' x 30' shop, the switch is just a few steps away from any machine location. If I'm moving between machines, the cyclone stays running and I just adjust the open gate according to the machine of the moment. (which is better for the cyclone motor in the long run...they shouldn't be toggled off and on "really frequently")

On the combo question, I personally feel that the Euro combo J/P machines or 5-function machines offer a lot of value to the single woodworker shop and great space utilization. My preference is as my shop is set up...a J/P combo and a sliding saw (or saw/shaper combo) just because of the way I tend to work. But I could have been quite happy with a full 5 function combo had that stairwell in the middle of my space not been there. The space advantages make for more area to do assembly, hand tool work and finishing. They also provide capacities that often will cost a lot more with separate machines. But they are not for everyone.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Like Phil, I have an Ecogate system (one box, 8 gates). It's not perfect, but it beats the heck out of opening and closing gates by hand. I'm a one-man production shop and in the span of two hours, I can run a stack of wood to near every tool two or three times. I counted myself opening and closing gates 46 times before lunch.

Plan on getting the toriod sensors for everything. The cheap little stick-on sensors (included) don't always detect a tool, and run coax - in my shop the wire they supply picks up too much interference. Plan also on placing an on-off switch in a handy place. The system sometimes looses track of which machine is /in use/was used/now off/still on, etc. Sometimes, you've just got to turn the whole she-bang off and on again. For phone calls too.

I'd buy another if something better wasn't available.

[Todd Crow]

I have built blast gates that open and close with the turning on and off of the individual machines. I have 9 of these gates in the shop. I turn the cyclone on and off when I need with a Long Ranger Remote.

With the auto gates I place them as close to the main line for the dust collector as I can. Less potential for leakage then.

This link is to my dust collection page, towards the bottom is the info on these gates, along with construction plans.

Dust Collection (http://www.crowsnest.us/woodshop/tools/dust_collection.htm)

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0760.jpg

[Tom Veatch]

I have built blast gates that open and close with the turning on and off of the individual machines. ...
This link is to my dust collection page, towards the bottom is the info on these gates, along with construction plans.

Dust Collection (http://www.crowsnest.us/woodshop/tools/dust_collection.htm)


Very interesting, Todd. You must have gotten a deal from Grainger for the components to run as inexpensively as you state on your page - or prices have nearly doubled since you built yours. I just ran your parts list through Grainger and came up with about $107 per gate.

That still beats the circa $300 per 6" gate from Grizzly and Ecogate. That cost, just for the gates, took automated blast gates out of my ballpark. Your solution is very tempting. But first, I'll have to pipe air to each tool postion ... But, if I can find 110/220 VAC electrical actuators for about the same money as the air cylinders plus solenoid valves, it may get even more tempting.

[FRITZ STOOP]

Shouldn't have used "feasible" regarding combos. What I should have said was something like, "are the 2-function combos, a j/p in my case, designed well enough so that one purpose does not detract from the other. Wouldn't go near a 5-way octopus!
European machines like the MM FS30 have a nice large jointer bed but only 12" planer width.

[Todd Crow]

I bought my parts back in 2002ish. I am sure prices went up. I was also able to get them at reduced prices through work. I guess I forgot that.

However, I have found the solenoid from MSC for $43 and some of the other parts there as well when I built the last gate last winter.

There might be other places to get parts, and maybe ebay would have some deals.

Piping the air was the easiest part of the gate install. I used 1/4" plastic tubing for air and just ran from the air compressor to this manifold and then all over the shop to the gates. And the gates do not have to be near the machines, just where the machines port comes off the main trunk.

Todd

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0870.jpg

And here is a finished gate installed.

http://www.crowsnest.us/images/DCP_0871.jpg

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Here's a pic of a homemade damper rather than a blast gate. That is, there is a gate that swings inside the airstream in lieu of sliding away. I have about 7 of them in my shop since about 1990. They cost about $35 each in parts. I built 6" models and 4" models which activate via a switch located near the machine which also activate the dust collector relay.

If you do a search of this forum. You will see many neat versions of homemade blast gates.

-Jeff :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/DSCF0138.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/2004_1231Image0008.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/Beff2/untitled.jpg

[Tom Veatch]

Here's a pic of a homemade damper rather than a blast gate. That is, there is a gate that swings inside the airstream in lieu of sliding away. ...

Jeff, I'd say we're getting a lot closer to my budgetary comfort zone here. I've tended to shy away from damper type gates because of a preconceived notion that they would tend to foul with jointer and planer shreds. You obviously have several years of experience with them. Have you had any problems with debris hanging up on that damper sitting out in the middle of the airstream?

[Will Blick]

Mitch, Where does one get these toriod sensors? Did you approach Eco Gate about the sensors not working properly?

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Have you had any problems with debris hanging up on that damper sitting out in the middle of the airstream?

Tom...when I first put the prototype into service 18 years ago, clogging was the concern because the damper blade was in the airstream. However, I found that this was not a problem. I use them on a portable planer and 6" jointer, both of which make the most chips relevant to the rest of the tools in my shop. Planing a 19" board, 1/16" deep on a 20" planer may be another story. ;)

-Jeff :)

[Tom Veatch]

... I found that this was not a problem....

Thanks, Jeff. Now, I'll start thinking real seriously about automating my blast gates similar to the way your's is. I've been mulling over ways to handle it and keep the gate out of the airflow. I can stop worrying about that now. Thanks again.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Ecogate sells them as an accessory. There are some machines that run so smoothly that they don't set off the standard (included) vibration sensing sensors.

[John Schreiber]

I did a Google SketchUp model based on Todd's blast gates above, partly so I could work out how the design and party because SketchUp is so much fun.


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The SketchUp file with a couple of views and dimensions is at this link (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=69adfeb3364c2bd28a25a6fb521e2449), and I've put together a collection of SketchUp models of dust collection equipment which may be useful here (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=3e0b97927825b12b7315e23c58395b5e).

Thanks Todd for making those designs available on your website.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Nice job on the CAD work John.

I like those air actuators. I considered them for my box damper design shown above. Those acutators are very powerful. However, I found them to be costly, and the air switch to be even more costly. But, I bet they are very reliable.

I believe some sources for the actuators are:
McMaster.com
Grainger.com
Reid Tools

-Jeff :)

[Alan Schaffter]

If you used a momentary air switch, I think you could easily make your own inexpensive actuators- Use a piece of 1/2" or 3/8" pipe and delrin or similar material piston. A modest amount of air pressure should be able to activate the blast gate. With a momentary air switch you wouldn't need to make your pistons perfectly air tight and wouldn't need to worry about losing compressed air.

[John Schreiber]

I take it a momentary air switch just uses air pressure to move the piston from one place to another, but doesn't maintain it in place? I didn't know such things existed, but I can see how it would be relatively easy to make.

It would only work where the blast gate itself was horizontal and there was no need to continue to hold it in any one position. I wonder if vibrations might move the gate when it is supposed to be closed.

At very least an interesting idea for some drawings.

[Chris Padilla]

Sweet! Cool stuff on the "autogates" some of you clever folks have come up with. Like Becker, I use a remote/contactor setup to turn on the DC and my hand to open/close the gates but I'm a hobbyiest. However, I could EASILY see myself delving deep into make some homemade autogates!! Very cool!!

[Steven Wilson]

Shouldn't have used "feasible" regarding combos. What I should have said was something like, "are the 2-function combos, a j/p in my case, designed well enough so that one purpose does not detract from the other. Wouldn't go near a 5-way octopus!
European machines like the MM FS30 have a nice large jointer bed but only 12" planer width.

Yes the 2-function combos work well. Typically to change from one function to another you; flip the jointer tables up, remove the DC hose from the jointer hood, flip over the planer hood, reconnect DC hose, crank your planer table to where you need it, and hit a switch. You don't want to flop from jointer to planer and back. You will need to plan your work out a bit, but that hasn't proven to be a problem for me. If I have my planer set up and need to edge joint a board I bring out a Stanley #7 w/ 386 jointer fence attached and get it done. The great thing about the jointer/planer combo is that they usually come with quick change cutter heads - those are great. As for planer/jointer width, combo's are available in 12", 14", 16" versions which is good enough for most purposes. I have a 14" cutterhead which has met my requirements so far.

[Dan McCallum]

This is an interesting thread. Todd's design, Jeff's design and a similar one by Reid Samuelson in Fine Woodworking #68, Jan 1988 P65 all got me thinking.

The blast gate design I like best however is Jameel's, shown in this other SMC thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69344. I was trying to figure out a way to automate it.

A bit of pricing research confirmed other comments that the pneumatic design of Todd's seems to have become more expensive since his implementation.

As an alternative to pneumatic control of the blast gate, has anyone considered gearhead motors? They seem to be readily available from surplus suppliers, robotics suppliers, and radio control places.

How about Jameel's design with a cheap 12VDC gearhead motor moving a rack gear mounted along the top of the moving piece? Anyone have any thoughts on how powerful a motor would be needed for a 6" system?

Dan