PM2000 Disappointments

[Les Heinen]

After many months of comparing various cabinet saws, I finally purchased a PM2000 earlier this year. While it came with all of the expectations it also came with some disappointments.

I had a collection of BORG purchased DeWalt 10" blades which I had collected over the years for use with my old Craftsmen contractor's TS which were/are still in good shape and planned on using with the PM2000.

First project while rough cutting some long pieces of maple, the stock bound up on the riffing knife to a point where I had to use a chisel behind the knife to spread the kerf & release the pressure in order to release the stock. Second project, same thing. After some frustrating times and finally ripping without the guard I measured the saw kerf with a micrometer and sure enough, the saw kerf was just a 0.001" thicker than the knife which allowed virtually no wood movement before binding. I now have to abandon my blade collection in favor of thicker blades or remove the guard/pawl/knife assembly when rough cutting. Safety first therefore I will have to shell out $$$ for a new blade collection (BORG blades don't list kerf thicknesses so I'm relegated to the more expensive lines. Moral...TK blades can't be used in conjunction with the riffing knife.

Arbor lock...great nuance. However after about a dozen blade changes, the lock sheared off and is now useless. Easy fix with four screws and relatively easy access. Part costs $3.42 but shipping is $19.95. Probably will forego replacing the lock in favor of a $15 blade holder thingy which will last much longer than a dozen changes.

Accu-Fence woes..While making raised panels for a door project, I had to make a jig to hold the panels 90 degress to the table. I assumed that the top of the fence was level and parallel to the table. As it turns out, not only is the fence not level & parallel but the left and right sides of the fence undulated independently up to 1/4" which allowed the jig to "rock". After scabbing on bits and pieces here and there on the jig, I was able to make it usable enough to finish the project but will have to re-think the design for a new jig for future projects.

Without challenges such as these, woodworking wouldn't be nearly as fun!:eek:

[Michael Tessier]

Les,

This is a problem I've always had with the notion of a riving knife. I've read numerous posts where a TS buyer was leaning towards a particular saw because it had a riving knife. They often mentioned they considered it safer then a saw with a splitter.

A riving knife is no safer than a splitter - just more convenient. That is, until the blade is changed to a different width.

My high end cabinet saw didn't come with a riving knife. I junked the guard /splitter because it wasn't up to the same level of quality as the rest of the saw. I made a custom splitter out AISI A2 material ground to .100" for 1/8 blades. This offers the right balance of clearance and rigidity to truly make a safer saw. A lot of the stock splitters and riving knives I've seen were way too flexible. I have a couple of splitters for special cases (non-thru cuts etc.). I don't have any narrow blades yet. But when I do, I will make dedicated splitters for them.

I can change out a splitter in about two minutes. It gives me an oportunity to consider the cuts I'm about to make.

Bottom line - I believe riving knives are over rated.

Best Regards,
Mike

[Tim Marks]

Arbor lock...great nuance. However after about a dozen blade changes, the lock sheared off and is now useless. Easy fix with four screws and relatively easy access. Part costs $3.42 but shipping is $19.95.
I have found Powermatic CS to be very responsive. I would bet they would give you a replacement if you emailed them about the defective part with them.

Are those dewalt blades thin-kerf, or are they just thinner then a normal kerf sawblade? EDIT: yes, of course they are! Did the PM2000 come with a stock blade that worked with the riving kjnife? You can buy a thin kerf 0.079" riving knife from PM. You could also buy replacement riving knives/shark guard from Leeway in various thicknesses, with 0.105" being the normal thickness for a normal-kerf saw.

http://www.leestyron.com/sharkpm2000.php


A riving knife is no safer than a splitter - just more convenient. That is, until the blade is changed to a different width.
Heresy! Last time I said something like that on this forum, I was called a fool... :D You obviously haven't been assimulated into the "no riving knife=dangerously unsafe" camp... give it a little more time...:eek:

Looking at the PM2000, I did not realize that it didn't come with a low-profile riving knife. The stock riving knife has to be removed for non-through cuts because it rises aboove the height of the blade. So it is not actually as safely convenient as I had envisioned, unless you buy the optional "low profile" knife, which then means no blade guard or pawls. So to actually be safe, you would still be swapping back and forth between low-profile riving knife and riving knife/blade guard combo (SS is the same, although you get both riving knives with the saw). This is kind of a funny side-effect that nobody discusses when they say how "convenient" the riving knife is over a splitter.

[Michael Tessier]

Tim,

I knew I was treading on thin ice when I made that post but strongly held notions must be expressed or we give in to PC tyrrany. Even if someone emphatically disagrees with my notions, that is fine. A third party will always benefit.

I've made some risky cuts when I didn't consider the forces involved. I was feeding some 2" thick age hardened Maple with a push sled riding down the top groove of the fence. The heal of the shoe was beside the fence like you often see in push stick examples. I got halfway down the cut when the piece started to grab and jump ahead in a startling manner. I stopped the saw and examined the cut. There was about .015 deep saw cut arcs where the piece grabbed. I deduced that while I pushing the piece close to the fence the blade was pushing back on it considerably further away. The piece reaction was to try and rotate away from the fence. The piece was driven hard into the blade until the splitter put a stop to it. I strongly believe a wimpier splitter would have allowed the episode to get a good deal more exciting.

I believe the splitter needs to be as robust as possible for maximum safety. If you can grab a splitter or riving knife and deflect it back and forth by hand then I consider it unsafe.

I go a step further when making thru cuts. I put a clamp on the splitter with a little clearence over the stock so once the splitter enters the curf the part is trapped and can't rise up. When I finally get a digital camera, I will post pictures of the setup.

Best Regards,
Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Take the Riving knife off and put it in a cabinet and forget about it. You can take it out for those times when you'll be doing lots of material that will require it.

The vast amount of work you'll do won't need a riving knife. I never had one for 30+some odd years and never really needed one.

I now have a fancy schmancy Austrian slider and I still won't use one. It's just in the way - I tried. I did I really tried. It's still in the way. I can't stand it in the same way I can't wear jewelry. It's always in the way.

I drop little wood wedges in the work if I think it's about to close up on the work. Works great~!

It's a trick I learned the that great sawyer in the sky John Walton.

Yah~!! Can you believe that?

[Glen Blanchard]

Wow. Interesting thread.

I bought a table saw that comes with a riving knife one year ago (won't mention the brand so as to prevent unnecessary distraction from this thread :eek:). I have to say that I have never once thought of the riving knife as being in the way. For me, it is virtually "invisible". From the factory, it came a bit high and I had to adjust it so it was not in the way for non-through cuts, but now that I have done that, the thing is invisible to me.

Disclaimer: I don't use a thin kerf blade.

[Douglas Robinson]

I bought a PM2000 this year and made sure to get the low profile riving knife (an extra). I have had no problems with it. As far as the stock fence system goes... I have never used it. I have a full IncraTSLS on mine. No problem what so ever.

Doug

[Jim Becker]

I have to say that I have never once thought of the riving knife as being in the way. For me, it is virtually "invisible". From the factory, it came a bit high and I had to adjust it so it was not in the way for non-through cuts, but now that I have done that, the thing is invisible to me.

I feel the same way. IMHO, a riving knife is safer than a splitter since you can leave it on the machine nearly 100% of the time and just forget about it.

To the OP, on the TK issue, saws like the PM2000 typically are not used with TK blades, so the riving knife is generally designed to be the right thickness for use with standard kerf blades. If you want to use your TK blade collection, consider getting another riving knife from PM and having it ground thinner by a local metal working shop. Just use the knife that is appropriate for the blade you put on the machine. I bought a second one for my MM machine...not for thickness as I don't have any TK blades, but so I could continue to use my collection of 10" Forrest blades and still have the knife just below the top of the blade. (The machine is designed for 12" blades in that respect)

[JayStPeter]

I can't remember if the Accufence on the 2000 is fully adjustable (I think so). Most likely it needs adjustment. If the fence faces are removable, some shimming will get rid of the undulations you mentioned and can also fix the square to the table problem if there isn't an adjustment (but I think there is). If the faces are not removable, call PM. I had the same problem with the Bies on my Unisaw and Delta replaced the fence.

[Chris Padilla]

Les,

Why don't you tell us what you LIKE as well! You know, help balance the universe! ;)

[Alan Schwabacher]

There is a problem using a full kerf splitter with a thin kerf blade. Why are you blaming this on a riving knife -- it's the same problem? Just get a thin kerf splitter/knife, or switch to a full kerf blade.

Incidentally, there is not a significant problem using a thin kerf splitter with a full kerf blade. See the sharkguard site linked above for discussion of this point.

[John Hedges]

All Tablesaws I know of come with a single splitter or riving knife so it does not matter whether you buy a PM a Grizzly or a delta, you would have this issue if your blades had a thinner kerf than the Riving Knife/splitter that came with it. The problem is not specific to a riving knife either as the splitters have the same issue. So you can either buy a thin kerf riving knife (I believe PM offers one as someone else mentioned), or order a regular one and have it ground. Personally I sold my TK blades with my contractors saw, as I dont really see a need for them with a cabinet saw. After spending that much $$ for a PM2000, it doesn't seem unreasonable that you would want to spend a little more on some new blades which are better suited to the saw.

As to the arbor lock, I love mine and I am not sure how you would have broken it unless you are applying extremely excessive force or got a defective one. I have found PM CS to be extremely helpful and I am sure they would send you a new one if it was defective (there is a 5 yr warranty on the saw), so I am not sure why you had to pay for one. When I got mine there was a nick in the fence rail. One phone call had them send out an entire new set of rails without any fuss. I also found that the fence faces weren't acceptably flat and I got the same response. New set with no questions asked. In both cases they did not even want the old ones back.

Your fence is fully adjustable. I spent an entire day and a half fine tuning my saw and fence to get it exactly like I wanted it, and to get to know the saw inside and out. It is time well spent with any new machine IMHO. If you can't tune the fence to your liking because it is warped or defective in some way, then call PM CS and I am sure they will resolve it to your satisfaction.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Les, I've had a PM2000 for almost two years and I share none of your complaints. Sorry I can't pile on.

[Gary Keedwell]

Les, I've had a PM2000 for almost two years and I share none of your complaints. Sorry I can't pile on.
Les, I can't share any of your complaints, either. I have had none of your problems....Wait a minute...Sorry...I don't own a PM2000:eek::D
Gary....who should stay away from eggnog:p

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Les, I can't share any of your complaints, either. I have had none of your problems....Wait a minute...Sorry...I don't own a PM2000:eek::D
Gary....who should stay away from eggnog:p

I bet Les would give you a good deal on his. :rolleyes:

[Les Heinen]

Les,

Why don't you tell us what you LIKE as well! You know, help balance the universe! ;)

Chris,
Actually everything else about the PM2000 is up to and in some cases exceeds my expectations. The dust collection is phenominal compared to what I had; the built in caster system works like a champ; assembly was a snap; everything which was to be perpendicular was- everything which was supposed to be parallel was (excepting the fence top as mentioned)- no fine tuning required; the power switch is located exactly where I need it to power off without fumbling around; the extension table with the router lift is a God send; Tops are flat and true; Passes the nickel test with flying colors; I have even grown to like the color:D

As my original post stated just disappointments! If I had to do it all over again I would make the same selection. I feel I got the best saw for my purposes!

Les

[Les Heinen]

All Tablesaws I know of come with a single splitter or riving knife so it does not matter whether you buy a PM a Grizzly or a delta, you would have this issue if your blades had a thinner kerf than the Riving Knife/splitter that came with it. The problem is not specific to a riving knife either as the splitters have the same issue. So you can either buy a thin kerf riving knife (I believe PM offers one as someone else mentioned), or order a regular one and have it ground. Personally I sold my TK blades with my contractors saw, as I dont really see a need for them with a cabinet saw. After spending that much $$ for a PM2000, it doesn't seem unreasonable that you would want to spend a little more on some new blades which are better suited to the saw.

As to the arbor lock, I love mine and I am not sure how you would have broken it unless you are applying extremely excessive force or got a defective one. I have found PM CS to be extremely helpful and I am sure they would send you a new one if it was defective (there is a 5 yr warranty on the saw), so I am not sure why you had to pay for one. When I got mine there was a nick in the fence rail. One phone call had them send out an entire new set of rails without any fuss. I also found that the fence faces weren't acceptably flat and I got the same response. New set with no questions asked. In both cases they did not even want the old ones back.

Your fence is fully adjustable. I spent an entire day and a half fine tuning my saw and fence to get it exactly like I wanted it, and to get to know the saw inside and out. It is time well spent with any new machine IMHO. If you can't tune the fence to your liking because it is warped or defective in some way, then call PM CS and I am sure they will resolve it to your satisfaction.

John,

Couldn't agree with you more regarding getting good blades but after spending $$$ for the saw, my WW budget has been all but non-existant. I was "using up" my stash of blades which would probably last a year or so and then look into some good ones. How do I contact PM CS? Did I miss something in the other posts? The websites I have found don't have links to PM.

Thanks for your response.

Les

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have to say that I have never once thought of the riving knife as being in the way. For me, it is virtually "invisible".

I am guessing it all depends on how you learn.
I came up in machine shops with no protection ever. My first TS had no knife, or if it did I tossed it pronto and forgot it just as fast.

[Jeff Wright]

. . . If you want to use your TK blade collection, consider getting another riving knife from PM and having it ground thinner by a local metal working shop. Just use the knife that is appropriate for the blade you put on the machine. I bought a second one for my MM machine...not for thickness as I don't have any TK blades, but so I could continue to use my collection of 10" Forrest blades and still have the knife just below the top of the blade. (The machine is designed for 12" blades in that respect)

Jim,

What did you do with the second riving knife? Did you file it down so you can do cuts that are not through cuts?

[John Hedges]

John,
How do I contact PM CS? Did I miss something in the other posts? The websites I have found don't have links to PM.


If you go to the powermatic website. (dont want to violate the TOS and post a link here, so think www. followed by the name of the company followed by a .com (http://www.powermatic.com)) there is a link to "our information" at the bottom which gives the following phone number. It should also be printed in your manuals IIRC

Consumer Relations
1.800.274.6848 - 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. (CST, Monday - Friday)

[Chris Padilla]

I feel I got the best saw for my purposes!

Les

Awesome...I hope day old Greenie (Griz) dies (it won't) and I can see-saw back 'n forth between Mustard (PM) and Ebony (SS). :D

[Justin Bukoski]

I really don't want to start a fight with anyone but I just don't think thin kerf saw blades belong on cabinet saws. Thin kerfs were designed for underpowered contractor saws. Please, do yourself and your hands a favor and buy one good full kerf blade like a WWII and use your riving knife AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. I have a nasty scar on my abdomen from kickback that would have been avoided with a riving knife (which I now have).

You never need it until you need it....

[Tim Wagner]

I don't recall having any issues with my fence. it actually moves on sliders located on the bottom, and doesn't actually rest on the independent sides. I would love to get a jessum slider.

[Steve Rowe]

I really don't want to start a fight with anyone but I just don't think thin kerf saw blades belong on cabinet saws. Thin kerfs were designed for underpowered contractor saws. Please, do yourself and your hands a favor and buy one good full kerf blade like a WWII and use your riving knife AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. ...
I think you hit the nail on the head there. I don't have a PM2000 but I suspect a review of the instruction manual will have something akin to what is in my manual. That being:

IMPORTANT

The riving knife must not be thicker than the saw-blade kerf.
The riving knife must be at least 0.2(mm) thicker than the saw-blade body.
The riving knife must be suitable for the diameter of the mounted main saw blade.The above is quoted directly out of the manual. What I have not duplicated is the fact that it is all in bold and the "IMPORTANT" portion is a large font surrounded by a box. There are also other directions in just how the riving knife is to be positioned including minimum clearances. I can't ever imagine why a thin kerf blade would ever want to be used on a "real" cabinet saw.

[Mike Wilkins]

Hope you don't mind if I toss my 2 cents worth of opinion here. My understanding of thin kerf blades is that they are designed for the bench top saws which do not have a lot of power anyway. Less power is needed to drive a thinner blade through the timber.
Machines in the cabinet saw category, in my opinion, are meant for use with full kerf (.125) blades anyway. With this much muscle, a thin blade is not necessary. I traced a vibration problem on my Unisaw to the thin kerf blade that was on the machine.
One of the reasons I am eye-balling a Euro slider now is the presence of the riving knife. Pinched lumber while ripping really raises the pucker factor.
Woodworking is supposed to be fun, not nerve racking.
Stay safe and watch those fingers.

[Tim Wagner]

I think the point Les was trying to make was that he had all these blades already, and that they were still in good shape. I can see his point, why not use them. I would do as was suggested already, and get the proper knife for it. :D

[Jim Solomon]

After much research and self debate I am about to pull the trigger on the PM2000. I was worried there was more wrong by your post, but this post quieted that concern. I can get the 3HP-1PH 50" version for $2184 delivered(terminal>25mi.) or the 5HP-1PH-30" for $2399 delivered. I honestly do not see myself working with 4x8 panels, and space is a premium for me. I'm tore between one or the other, on one shoulder the little red guy with pitchfork is saying , get the 5HP forget the $215 :rolleyes:. On the other shoulder he is saying, wife would sure be happy with that savings!;) My buddy has a sawmill and kiln and I get all my wood from him so I'm thinking the 5HP, but then I think do I really need that extra 2HP. On a side note this is my first post. I want to donate to Sawmill Creek but am not sure if I donate $12 if that will cover the remainder of this yr. and next. Anyone know? Redmond Machinery has the Delta Model 36-L31X-BC50, 10" X5 Series Unisaw, 3 HP, 1 PH, 230 V, Left-Tilt w/ 50" Biesemeyer Fence for $1999 shipped. But I think I would be happier with the PM, unless I have been reading biased reviews. Any thoughts? Hope everyone and their families has a Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous New Year. :D
Jim

Decided to donate the $12.00, from Paypal "This email confirms that you have paid Northwind Associates (sales@northwindassociates.com (mhtml:{5F73D038-90E2-4DED-A19D-32029B4E6D19}mid://00000054/!x-usc:mailto:sales@northwindassociates.com)) $12.00 USD using PayPal." Since I referenced this site for the past year I surmised it was the only fair thing to do.

[Steve Rowe]

Hi Jim and welcome to the creek. Up until I upgraded to a slider, I had a 3HP Unisaw and I really liked it. Unless you are going to be ripping 2" + hardwood stock a lot, the 3HP should be fine. Unless of course, you are a Tim Allen kind of more power guy, in which case nothing less than 5HP will do. I can't offer any guidance on comparison between the PM2000 and Unisaw. Good luck with your decision.
Steve

[Jim Becker]

What did you do with the second riving knife? Did you file it down so you can do cuts that are not through cuts?

I did have to "take a little off the top" on my second riving knife that I use with the 10" blade for non-through cuts...or through cuts for that matter when I am not using the overhead collection guard. I'll say I ground off about 1/4" at the most. Not with a file...at the grinder...taking a little bit and letting things cool down before taking a little more. Took me about, oh...10 minutes tops to complete the task. That knife stays on my MM saw pretty much "permanently". The only time I exchange it for the other one is, as I eluded to, when I'm going to use the overhead dust collection hood that attaches to the top of it. Were I using a 12" blade, there would be no need for the second knife on my machine.

[Jim Becker]

If you go to the powermatic website. (dont want to violate the TOS and post a link here, so think www. followed by the name of the company followed by a .com (http://www.powermatic.com)) there is a link to "our information" at the bottom which gives the following phone number. It should also be printed in your manuals IIRC

Consumer Relations
1.800.274.6848 - 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. (CST, Monday - Friday)

Posting links at SMC is not a TOS violation unless they are direct links to another forum or auction, or are promotional in nature to benefit the poster. In fact, if you read the TOS, links are encouraged when they are helpful to the conversation.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[D-Alan Grogg]

I just read this thread. I've been catching up with the forum after a time away. Wow, this post has me puzzled. I've had the PM2000 for about a year, now. I've had no issues with the riving knife, spindle lock, or fence. I use my DeWalt TK rip blade (that I've owned for years) without any binding whatever. I went through all the recommended alignment steps in the manual, not sure if that could help your situation.

[Ted Baca]

Michael, You don't mention the Chain lift for the mobile base. Have you had issues with that? I have heard that a few people have had some problems. I was really close to making a purchase of the PM2000 but decided to buy another saw. That seemed like such a good saw, I did have one dealer tell me that I should buy a PM66, but the features of the PM2K seemed better. It is sad that you are having problems.
I must add my vote though, for the Riving Knife. As I bought the same saw as Glenn I have had no issues, but use the 1/8" blade only.

Good Luck I think Powermatic would be happy to help you out. They seem to be very good people.

[Jim Eller]

I don't have the PM 2000 but have a year old PM 66 with no problems what so ever.

What I can tell you is that I have had a major issue with a 15HH planer and the PM service people will bend over backwards to keep a PM customer happy. But, you have to call them.

Jim