under $2k J/P Showdown: Grizzly vs Jet

[Matt Lentzner]

Guys,

I am pretty sure I will be buying a 12" J/P combo machine sometime in the next 12-24 months. (I'm not an impulse shopper by any stretch - besides both machines are back ordered). The under $2k price point is very attractive and makes getting separates (13" lunchbox, 8" jointer) with less capacity for ~$500 less pretty unattractive from both a space and money perspective. (I assume I'd want to upgrade them at some point, why not go for broke?)

The other advantage is that I could upgrade to a Byrd head at a later date for $1100 (I got a quote from Byrd Tools) - which is a lot of money, but I would be getting a helical head on two machines at one shot. $550 for a 12" Shelix jointer head and another $550 for a 12" Shelix planer head doesn't sound so bad. Just so I have something to look forward to :).

I had my heart set on the Grizzly G0633, but I just recently found out about the Jet 708475. I wanted to compare them side by side and discuss the pluses and minuses of each unit. I have no experience with machines of this type so I hoping some of you who own/used one can comment.

Tale of the tape: (Where they differ)

Price (delivered)
Grizz: $1943
Jet: $1799 (ToolKing.com)

Jointer Table Length
Grizz: 59-7/8"
Jet: 55"

Guard
Grizz: Porkchop
Jet: Euro Bridge

Motor
Grizz: 5hp
Jet: 3hp

Weight
Grizz: 672 lbs.
Jet: 525 lbs.

My comments:

There's no question the Grizzly is the more substantial machine. It is considerably heavier and has the larger motor and 5" longer jointer table. The extra $145 or so doesn't seem like a lot to pay for this. The guard is familiar to me although that doesn't mean I wouldn't like the Jet Euro-style guard.

On the other hand, I find the choice of a 5hp motor somewhat curious. It seems like overkill. Even Grizzly's 12" jointer and 15" planer use a 3hp motor. It could be a pain if your wiring isn't 10 gauge already. Having to run new line to feed this machine could make the price effectively much more depending on your options available to make electrical changes.

My master plan is to have a 12" shop (jointing, planing, resawing) running on 3hp motors. The Grizz would be an oddball and take away some flexibility as far as moving machines around and plugging them in at different places.

So I'm leaning toward the Jet, but I will be waiting for the reviews, both in publication and here before I make my final decision. Of course I will buy what I feel is the best machine, the concerns about the Grizzly only rate consideration as a tie-breaker.

Thanks for your time,

Matt

[Jamie Buxton]

You should publish where you live, and ask if anybody on this forum has one of these machines near you. I'd bet they'd be willing to show it off to you , and even make a little sawdust. Nothing beats a live demo.


..or, considering the brand-new status of these machines, you might wait until you're really ready to buy. There might be more machines out there then...

[Paul Johnstone]

Guys,

I am pretty sure I will be buying a 12" J/P combo machine sometime in the next 12-24 months. (I'm not an impulse shopper by any stretch - besides both machines are back ordered). The under $2k price point is very attractive and makes getting separates (13" lunchbox, 8" jointer) with less capacity for ~$500 less pretty unattractive from both a space and money perspective. (I assume I'd want to upgrade them at some point, why not go for broke?)



Keep in mind that the shorter tables on a combo machine might be a disadvantage.. It depends on what you do. I remember attempting to join 7' long 2" thick oak on a 6" jointer with short beds.. basically impossible. Sure, in theory, you can rig outfeed rollers, etc for extra support, but in reality it's not accurate enough (and I'm not one of those guys that's overly anal retentive.. I tried, and got better results by planing only).



My master plan is to have a 12" shop (jointing, planing, resawing) running on 3hp motors.


Are combo machines able to be moved around on mobile bases? I don't know how heavy they are. That's another factor.. Ideally, since a BS doesn't take up that much space it's nice to push it against a wall and leave it there.

[JayStPeter]

With the Grizzly, you can go directly to the shelix for $2400.

I'm considering the upgrade myself, but it'll probably be a couple years. But, I'll be watching the reviews of these machines.

Jay

[Curt Harms]

I think with the Jet You don't have to remove the fence like with the Grizzlyto switch functions. Also, the Jet beds move together rather than separately and have spring assist to raise them. I believe the Jet has corrugated cast iron beds. Their point is that stock slides easier on corrugated beds than on solid CI beds. That may be true, but how about edge jointing thin stock? I suspect 3 h.p. is plenty in a non-production setting and should work with a 20 amp. 240 volt service. I think a 5 h.p. would require a 30 amp. service. Wait a few years and segmented spiral cutter heads may become more available. I'm having the same thoughts about a combo machine. There's a review & video available at Tom Hintz' site:http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/jetjjp12rvu.html

HTH

Curt

[Kevin Murdock]

Matt,

Take note that the Grizzly J/P machines are 12" jointer and 11-3/4" planer.

The planer table is not wide enough to handle 12" stock. This is accurately reflected in the user manual on the Grizzly site, at the top of page 4, so they are aware of this and I did PM Shiraz about it as well. Oddly, the 12" capability is still claimed on the specification sheet as it was posted well in advance of the machine's arrival date.

I own the machine (G0634), and can confirm the reduced capability. Other than that, it is a really nice machine.

If that ability to plane a full 12" is needed, that could affect your choice.

Hope this helps,
-Kevin

[David Axmann]

I have the Grizzly with spiral head on order. It is backordered until May 2008. I also have some feelers out to a few Jet dealers regarding Jet's combo machine.

One thing I am not familiar with is how the Euro Bridge style guard works. I've never used a machine with one. From Tom's video I see the guard is set to the exact height for face jointing and the exact distance for edge jointing. Does the guard not automatically 'close' after a pass? If I am edge jointing 6/4 stock does that mean after my pass that much room is still open to the exposed cutterhead? Same for the height; does the guard remain off the table after a face jointing pass?

If so I don't see how that could be any safer or better. Either way it wouldn't be a deal maker or breaker, I'm just curious.

[Jim Becker]

David, the bridge guard works as you state. For face jointing, it's raised to just clear the material but completely covers the cutter head. For edge jointing, it's pulled away from the fence, but left at table height. Only the small gap where the board goes through remains uncovered. (It does not close automatically like the porkchop) And having used the Euro bridge guard on my own J/P now for several years...you couldn't get me to go back to a porkchop for any conceivable bribe. Much better system and IMHO, safer since there is no exposure when face jointing and extremely limited exposure well away from the hands when doing edges. That's why it's required in Europe.

I've been thinking about doing a short video to demonstrate the bridge guard at some point...when I have the time.

[Chris Padilla]

I'm with Jim on this...I switched over to the Euro guard on my 16" MM J/P...that pork chop cover is just a pain on such a wide table surface.

[Matt Lentzner]

With the Grizzly, you can go directly to the shelix for $2400.

I'm considering the upgrade myself, but it'll probably be a couple years. But, I'll be watching the reviews of these machines.

Jay

That's not the Byrd Shelix head for $2400. It's the Grizzly spiral head. Maybe I've just succumbed to marketing hype, but I'd rather have a real Shelix head. It has shearing action while the Grizzly does not. Does this make a difference in practice? I don't know, but my normal reaction is to go with the best available.

Matt

[David Weaver]

>>the best available<<

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/Brochures-PDF/HelicalCarbideCutterHead.pdf

!!!!!

Warning to anyone who likes tools - you could have some serious jonesing problems if you have a fast connection and look at that link.

Kidding aside, I am looking forward to seeing some reviews of these machines from actual users. One of them is in my future - probably toward the end of 2008, or maybe later if it takes a while for the manufacturers to catch up with demands. Such a thing in my two car garage (which still has two cars in it, too) on wheels would be very useful.

[Rob Wright]

Like a lot of people - I have been eying both of these since they were announced. Having only seen them on the web - I am leaning towards to Jet simply from the ease of change over standpoint. Watch the below link - both the Jet and the Grizzly are shown being converted from Planer to Joiner. I have other Grizzly tools and I am very pleased with them, but I am looking forward to seeing the Jet in the local showroom. The 5hp may be overkill in my mind as well for the Grizz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRowRSeDNm8&feature=related

- Rob

[Chris Padilla]

That's not the Byrd Shelix head for $2400. It's the Grizzly spiral head. Maybe I've just succumbed to marketing hype, but I'd rather have a real Shelix head. It has shearing action while the Grizzly does not. Does this make a difference in practice? I don't know, but my normal reaction is to go with the best available.

Matt

Matt,

That is not quite correct. Both have a shearing action but the Byrd kind of "doubles up" on it by pointing the individual cutters in a shearing angle whereas the Griz has the cutters head-on. However, both have the cutters in a shearing angle as they line up along the cylinder, slightly stepped back from each other.

I hope this makes sense...kinda hard to explain...pics are worth a 1000 words and I know I've seen them out there on the good old 'net. :)

[David Axmann]

My unfamiliarity with the euro style guards makes it hard to visualize its operation in different situations. I'd like to take a closer look at the Jet if I could find a dealer nearby that had one in stock.

[David Weaver]

My unfamiliarity with the euro style guards makes it hard to visualize its operation in different situations. I'd like to take a closer look at the Jet if I could find a dealer nearby that had one in stock.

Can someone clarify how this works for those of us who are in the uninitiated group? Does the Euro guard put pressure across the board over the cutterhead? If so, that would be a nice feature, even if it does interfere with hand-feeding the boards.

The couple of times I've used larger jointers with the pork chop (or with no guard at all), I've worried about whether or not I can get evne pressure, and the easy solution to that is obvious - power feed. Not something i'm likely to get in my shop.

[JayStPeter]

If you want to see the Jet guard in action, go to the newwoodworker link above and watch the video.

[JayStPeter]

Matt,

You're right, it's technically not a Byrd Shelix, but a spiral carbide insert head. I have a Byrd on my current jointer. Before I bought it I tried out a friends jointer that had one of the generic carbide spiral insert heads. In my limited use and discussions with him, there isn't any appreciable difference. I like my Byrd, but for the $600 difference I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with the other. I don't want to go back to straight knives.

[David Weaver]

I think Shiraz has gotten on here and said basically the same thing - that in running both side by side that he and others didn't notice any difference. If those things are razor sharp and only cutting a tiny bit at a time, I can see there being no huge difference.

Here's my question with why that might be the case - the cutters are attached tangentially to the cutterhead, where as regular planer blades are attached at a steep cutting angle. Is this an issue where the cutting angle is making more of a difference than the shearing effect of being on an angle?

[JayStPeter]

I think Shiraz has gotten on here and said basically the same thing - that in running both side by side that he and others didn't notice any difference. If those things are razor sharp and only cutting a tiny bit at a time, I can see there being no huge difference.

Here's my question with why that might be the case - the cutters are attached tangentially to the cutterhead, where as regular planer blades are attached at a steep cutting angle. Is this an issue where the cutting angle is making more of a difference than the shearing effect of being on an angle?

My guess is more that there is only <1/2" of blade in contact with the wood at any given time. There is also almost always a blade in contact. So, when you are pushing the resistance is constant instead of minor pulses. It's a significantly different sound and resistance when you push the wood through. Less sound and more resistance.

[David Weaver]

It would be nice if someone with a micro-sized super high speed camera would take some footage of the two different methods for us :D

[Wilbur Pan]

Can someone clarify how this works for those of us who are in the uninitiated group? Does the Euro guard put pressure across the board over the cutterhead? If so, that would be a nice feature, even if it does interfere with hand-feeding the boards.

There is only minimal pressure from the Euro guard on the board over the cutterhead. On my 10" jointer/planer combo, the guard just rests on the board as it passes through. In any case, that's the wrong place for pressure for jointing, anyway.

[Scot Ferraro]

On my Hammer the guard is spring-loaded but it is above the wood -- no pressure at all and I am not sure that you would want any there anyway. I much prefer the Euro-guard, especially when face jointing as the blades are always covered. Also, in regards to the head, most of the J/P combo machines have quick change knives that leave a very smooth finish. I am not sure if the finish quality of the shelix head is worth the added cost, but I suppose each person needs to make that opinion on his/her own.

Good luck!

Scot

[Jim Becker]

Can someone clarify how this works for those of us who are in the uninitiated group? Does the Euro guard put pressure across the board over the cutterhead? If so, that would be a nice feature, even if it does interfere with hand-feeding the boards.

No, it's just a guard. You need to provide the slight amount of pressure necessary to keep the board on the tables and move it forward. The initial cutting has both hands on the infeed side. When you move your focus to the outfeed side once you are partway through the pass, one of your hands goes over the bridge and with most adult hands, never completely goes out of contact with the board...you float your hand over the guard at that point. The same would more or less hold true if you use push blocks but obviously you'd need to lift one to clear the guard, resulting in slightly more time where both "hands/pushblocks" are not in contact with the workpiece.

[Chris Barnett]

FWIW in checking out the pros and cons of helical heads, I read several times that the Griz head reportedly provides a smoother surface than the shelix. Surprised me; the sheliz just looks like a slightly better design, but am waiting until stronger confirmation is available. Would be cheaper too...well....right now, anyway.

[Greg Cole]

Might not be right on the point of the J/P post here but the "porkchop" is what got my pinky when I caught the push block I dropped & tried to catch when my pinky recently ran into jointer blades (pinky definatley lost...). Hard to explain of course, but the bridge style has a certain appeal all the sudden... :cool:
The J/P combo's are more appealing to me as you get a little bigger and unfortunately much more expensive. But the Jet & Griz both look good for the $.
Bigger is usually better....?!

Greg

[Joe Mioux]

I sort of scanned this thread and noted comments about the Byrd spiral head....

I have a mmfs30 with tersa knives. I like that machine, but I still get a better finish with my Delta 22-580 lunch box planer.

My question is....

What costs more, retrofitting your j/pwith some Byrd-shelix-spiral-head-super shearer thingamajig or just hanging on to that little lunch box?

Does that spiral head produce a better cut than the lunch box?

joe

[John Stevens]

What costs more, retrofitting your j/pwith some Byrd-shelix-spiral-head-super shearer thingamajig or just hanging on to that little lunch box?

Does that spiral head produce a better cut than the lunch box?

Hi, Joe. I own a jointer with a Byrd shelix head and a lunch box planer. I'm not sure I understand your first question, but you can find the prices on the Byrd and the Griz web sites, I believe.

As for your second question: I have a Ridgid lunchbox planer, and it gives a glass-smooth finish as long as the grain is straight. Tearout in curly grain is fairly manageable as long as the knives are brand new and the wood is dampened slightly. But it's noisy as anything! My jointer with the Byrd head can face-plane extremely curly wood without making tearout deeper than coarsely-ground pepper, and there's very little of that. As if that weren't good enough, it's quieter than my DC! So I'm waiting a couple of years for these combo J-Ps to become more common in the US, and then I'm definitely getting one.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Justin Bukoski]

If anyone wants to see the the euro guard in action, go the the rojekusa.com site and look at the videos. I have a rojek combo with this type of guard on the J/P and like Jim, I'll never go back to the pork chop.

[Dick Strauss]

FYI-I borrowed this diagram from the Byrd website to show the differences between the Grizzly and Byrd heads. You'll see the Grizzly heads are stepped along the spiral while the Byrd are angled to match the helical pattern. This results in a shearing cut in two dimensions rather than just one. I hope this graphic is allowed...I'm not affiliated with either company

http://www.byrdtool.com/Difference.gif

or use this link if not allowed by moderators:
http://www.byrdtool.com/Difference.gif

[David Weaver]

I sort of scanned this thread and noted comments about the Byrd spiral head....

I have a mmfs30 with tersa knives. I like that machine, but I still get a better finish with my Delta 22-580 lunch box planer.

My question is....

What costs more, retrofitting your j/pwith some Byrd-shelix-spiral-head-super shearer thingamajig or just hanging on to that little lunch box?

Does that spiral head produce a better cut than the lunch box?

joe

I agree on the finish quality. I get a better finish with a 22-580 than I do running lumber through a friend's DC580 (20-inch Delta planer). Much less tearout on swirly grain, too. Some of that may have to do with blade sharpness, depth of cut, etc, but it seems like the better lunchboxes leave a very nice finish compared to some of the big humpers.

I still would like to have a larger planer - I feel like i'm abusing the 22-580 if I run it for an hour straight on hardwoods.

Poorest quality face joint I've seen is off of a 24-inch 3-legged jointer with power feed, and even that finish can be cleaned up in a couple of smoothing plane passes. Said jointer with a power-feeder is a face-jointing monster, though. Never heard a jointer that *loud* before or since.

I guess it's a design and use issue more than a quality issue, because I know the DC580 and the aforementioned jointer are much higher quality than my refurb 22-580.

We live in a good time for hobbyists. It wasn't that long ago that every result of a lunchbox planer - that I saw - was snipe city, and no dust collection to speak of either (which is also fantastic on the 22-580).

[Kevin Groenke]

FWIW in checking out the pros and cons of helical heads, I read several times that the Griz head reportedly provides a smoother surface than the shelix. Surprised me; the sheliz just looks like a slightly better design, but am waiting until stronger confirmation is available. Would be cheaper too...well....right now, anyway.

I would also really like to hear/see first person evidence/experience of the Byrd vs "generic"/Grizzly spiral head. We took delivery of a Grizzly 0609 12" jointer on Monday (looks/works great though there is a .010 bow in the fence) and I'm trying to decide whether to put in the Byrd head or the "plain" Grizzly. We've got a PM 20" planer with the Byrd and I'm slightly dismayed by the extent of the scalloping that the radiused carbide inserts create. I think the DW735 that the PM replaced actually left a flatter/smoother surface albeit in a much slower/noisier fashion.

Scalloping on the face of a board isn't the end of the world, but it seems to us that scalloping on an edge could create problems during glue-up (ie: corners aren't square so panel doesn't glue-up flat) The Grizzly spiral head uses straight inserts parallel to the boards face, so I can imagine some ridges or hollows where the inserts intersect, but it doesn't seem scalloping would be a problem.

Can Grizzly spiral head users please give a detailed description of the surface created and how it might differ from straight knifes and/or the Byrd head.

Shiraz, you sell both the Byrd head and your own spin-off design. You claim that the straight inserts of the Grizzly head handle figured and difficult grain as well as the "true helix" of the Byrd... is the resulting surface flatter than that of the Byrd??

Thanks!

kg

[Eddie Darby]

That's not the Byrd Shelix head for $2400. It's the Grizzly spiral head. Maybe I've just succumbed to marketing hype, but I'd rather have a real Shelix head. It has shearing action while the Grizzly does not. Does this make a difference in practice? I don't know, but my normal reaction is to go with the best available.

Matt

Odd thing is that I hear about ridges on some Shelix heads, but not on the Grizzly heads.

[JayStPeter]

I sort of scanned this thread and noted comments about the Byrd spiral head....

I have a mmfs30 with tersa knives. I like that machine, but I still get a better finish with my Delta 22-580 lunch box planer.

My question is....

What costs more, retrofitting your j/pwith some Byrd-shelix-spiral-head-super shearer thingamajig or just hanging on to that little lunch box?

Does that spiral head produce a better cut than the lunch box?

joe

I think I have the same setup as John Stevens above (same planer and a byrd on my jointer). The answer is it depends. Like John mentioned the crazy grain finishes much better on the jointer. On straight grain, it's a toss up.

The smooth surface on crazy grain is the main advantage of the carbide insert heads (byrd or not). But, another unsung advantage is that I can run the boards through in either direction with no discernable difference. It makes things easier on the jointer. I can pick an edge to joint after I joint a face and just do it. I can also feed the board which ever direction is more convenient when face jointing (ie. the smoothest edge near the fence). It seems minor, but it's a bigger advantage than you would think. Being able to flip flop the board can sometimes save you from turning a warped board into a thin or ramped board.

[Eddie Darby]

I see that the price is even cheaper now. Who can say what it will be in a year or two.

http://www.tools-plus.com/jet-708475.html

$1,699.00

I wonder if Jet will be offering a spiral head for this machine in the future???

[David Weaver]

Wow...that's a great deal. I hope it's even cheaper by the end of the year when I'm looking to buy a machine.

[Kevin Groenke]

Well, It seems that Grizzly doesn't know the difference between the Byrd and their own design (for the 0609) as yet since they they don't actually have any of the 12" spirals.

The Grizzly spiral will be $650 + $120 for the inserts , the Byrd is on sale for $665 and comes w/10 spare cutters.

That decision just got a little easier.


Dear Kevin,

Thank you for your email dated December 21, 2007.

Regarding your inquiry of spiral cutterheads, the P0609X023 Spiral Cutterhead 12” is currently priced at $650.00 plus shipping and handling. This unit would just be the cutterhead and all inserts and accessories would need to be purchased separately. We have not yet received stock of these cutterheads to determine your other inquiries of cutterhead design and functionality.



Technical Support
Grizzly Industrial Inc.

[Jim Becker]

Noticeable scalloping is generally a sign of either a knife being out of alignment, dull kinves or excessive feed speed. That last pass on edges should be rreeaallyyy ssslllooooowwwww for best results. (increased the number of cuts per inch) Scalloping on thicknessing or face jointing is a similar situation, although you have less or no control on feed speed when thicknessing.

The lunch-box planers will always provide a "finer" surface simply because the number of cuts per inch is generally higher than with a stationary machine, especially with the 3-knife versions. They simply spin the cutter head much faster. (at the expense of higher noise levels and shorter life if you are a heavy user) But there are still scallops there if you examine the surface closely. 'Nature of a rotating cutter head. None of these machines should be considered anything close to providing a finished surface. You still need to scrape, hand-plane and/or sand the surfaces to eliminate the cutting surfaces left by the rotating knives.

I am, however, very happy with the results from the Tersa head on my J/P, especially when I can skew the workpiece for a shearing cut...which I do most of the time.

[Kevin Groenke]

Jim,

As a result of the slightly radiused cutting edges, the Byrd cutterheads leave a very subtle scalloping which runs parallel to the grain/feed
direction. Theoretically this could result in jointed edges that aren't square which could be a problem when gluing up panels. The Grizzly spiral/index cutterhead uses straight edged inserts which it seems would do away with the scallops, my question is what am I losing with the Grizzly rather than the Byrd? The obvious answer is the shearing cut, but I wonder if there's more.

I've noticed less scalloping perpendicular to the grain/feed direction with the Byrd, since the knives are oriented in a spiral some are always in contact w/the stock. The exponential reduction in noise level is the primary reason we upgraded to the spiral, it meets and exceeds expectations in that regard.

Certainly no rotational cutting solution is going to be flat under magnification, I'm just trying to get the flattest surfaces possible with the least work.

I would never expect that anything other than jointing (albeit carefully and at an appropriate speed) would be required prior to gluing up panels. Isn't this after all one of the primary functions of a jointer?

I guess I'll just run some previously jointed stock on edge through the planer with the Byrd to assess whether the scallops will be problematic.

kg

[John Stevens]

I guess I'll just run some previously jointed stock on edge through the planer with the Byrd to assess whether the scallops will be problematic.

I'd be interested in what you find, Kevin. I haven't had a problem with jointing edges for stock to be glued into panels, but I'd like to hear from others.

Regards,

John