Noobe plane question: LA vs BU vs Standard...

[Joe Cipriano]

I'm planning on buying a set of planes in the near future, and am wondering what the reasoning is behind the different plane versions. Is one type generally "better", or does each type excel at specific jobs? IE: LV offers a BU jointer; LN offers both a LA and a standard jointer - is one "format" any better than the other two for jointing, or does it boil down to different ways to defleece a feline...;)

Why would I want to choose the LV standard-angle block plane over the LA? Why not?

Unfortunately, I don't have unlimited funds, so I can't buy one of each version to try out. These will be used for cabinet/furniture making - hardwoods & ply/laminates. I'm looking at a small block, #4 smooth, & #7 jointer. Might grab a shoulder plane for tenon work if I can afford it.

Thanks, everyone.

[Marcus Ward]

You know, for the cost of those you can buy a stanley 3-7 plus a couple of block planes and still have enough left over for dinner. However, if you're set on LV (and no reason not to be, they're incredible) then the low-angle bevel-up planes offer the versatility of allowing you to work end grain and then put a blade in with a steeper bevel, mimicking the function of the bevel down 'normal' planes without added cost (well, not a lot of added cost. That extra blade costs more than most of my stanley planes). You can also get a steeper bevel blade for working very difficult burl grain to avoid tearout. You could just regrind your single blade but you'd go through them rather quickly. For working end grain, a low angle is very handy, although I can do a pretty good job with a normal plane, nothing compares to a low angle plane on that stuff. Thus, for the block plane, I would get the low angle. All the normal angle one is is a small smoother, in my opinion, and you'd have a #4 for that. Those 3 planes (#4, #7, low angle block plane), plus a shoulder plane, will get you a lot of places. Things to consider for the future - router plane. They're very handy. My 2 cents.

[Danny Thompson]

Marcus is right on with his summary. Translations: #4 is the rough equivalent of the Lee Valley Low Angle Bevel Up Smoother, #7 is the rough equivalent of the Lee Valley Low Angle Bevel Up Jointer (Both of which are on my Lee Valley wish list). I've read great things about the Lie Nielsen Adjustable Mouth Low Angle Block Plane.

These are incredibly versatile tools. I've read only two negative comments about the Bevel Up planes:

1) Bah humbug! (. . . from the traditionalists who pay no account to them young whippersnappers that don't do things they way pappy done taught me.)
2) Some have argued that the BU planes have a tendency to wear on the back bevel after extensive use and, therefore, may wear a little faster than the standard, bevel down variety. This argument usually follows #1.

Derek Cohen does an very interesting review of these planes, as well as a detailed analysis of the various blade angles. Google "wkfinetools derek cohen".

The only

[Randy Klein]

I originally bought the LV BUS, BUJ, and block. But have since returned them for the LN 4-1/2, #7, and block.

For the block, the LV was too large for my hands which made it difficult to use 1 handed. But I like LV's mouth adjustment.

For the bench planes, my reasons for switching were:
1. For the BU irons, I found I had to do more frequent honing, which I attributed to the wear bevel (long story).
2. I liked the Bailey depth/lateral adjuster better than the Norris style.
3. The adjustable mouth of the LV was real nice, but I would sometimes get a chip clogged in the side of the sliding mechanism (especially the jointer) and this was annoying. The LN does not have a sliding mouth, so no problem there.
4. I just liked the how the mechanics of planing felt with the LN better.

What I would do if I were you, would be to buy both LV and LN block, jointer, and smoother. Try out all of them and decide which you like the best and return the others. I know LV has a great 90 day satisfaction guarantee and so does Woodcraft. This situation is why those guarantees exist.

[Mark Stutz]

Joe,
If at all possible, try them out. I was excited when LV finally showed up at the WW show a couple of years ago. I was very dissapointed when I had the LV planes in hand. The totes just were not comfortable for me. At the time I did'nt have near the skills to make a new tote to fit, but that is a whole 'nuther issue.

Mark

[Joe Cipriano]

Danny:

Thanks for the info. Cohen's reviews are positive. Found another site with reviews - UKworkshop - http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7777 - that are also positive, except for the size of the totes (although I have fairly large hands, so that may be a non-issue). Seems that there isn't much difference between a LA and a standard, at least as far as the cut's concerned - which is all that really matters.

Randy/Mark: I'd rather check them out at a WW show, rather than return a tool I don't like. Unfortunately, I missed the Chicago area show (sometime in October); there's one in Milwaukee at the end of February that I may be able to attend.

LNs are out of my price range right now... :(

Marcus: Thanks for the info. Just realized that I can get the LV LA block plane, and pretty much get two additional planes for the price of the 38° and 50° irons. Pretty good deal...:D

[Eddie Darby]

I wish I could find someone who reviews all the planes, rather than just one brand of plane, or even better yet would be a session with a room full of different brands of planes, and full of various experienced woodworkers going at it, all on different types of wood! Would make for an interesting magazine article.

I have both BU and BD planes, LV and LN planes, and they all plane wood, so you will not loose that way.

I own several different smoothers, in both styles, and I usually like to grab the BD planes because I can easily adjust the depth of cut on the fly, quickly, with just a quick twirl of the index finger to be able to get that wisp of a shaving off, when finishing off a surface.

With the BU planes there is a need to disengage the grip, to move up to the top, to make adjustments, while this is not the case with BD.

I find this preference mostly with the smoothers. If the wood grain is demanding, then I go with what will do the best job in that case, and throw convenience out the window.

The other thing that I should add is that with the BU planes you will need to re-vamp your approach to sharpening, since it is not sharpened in the conventional way, which is just a learning curve problem. Small back bevels are needed due to the wear patterns on the blades of BU planes being different from BD planes.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've got fairly large hands and the LV BU family, they're comfortable for me to use. I've held an LN, but never used it. Tough choice, but either will get you a good plane.

[Lee Hingle]

Randy/Mark: I'd rather check them out at a WW show, rather than return a tool I don't like.

Joe,
I agree.

For those recommending that Joe buy 1 of each and return the one he doesn't like - well, in my opinion that is just unethical. That's not why the return policy is in place at stores like that. True, they want you to be happy, but I don't think the "buy & try" approach is the way to go. What do you think they do with the returned plane? Should they toss it in the trash? Should they resell it? Would you be ticked if you got a "used" plane with somebody's shavings in the throat?

For once I think some of the advice here is way off.

[Randy Klein]

Joe,
I agree.

For those recommending that Joe buy 1 of each and return the one he doesn't like - well, in my opinion that is just unethical. That's not why the return policy is in place at stores like that. True, they want you to be happy, but I don't think the "buy & try" approach is the way to go. What do you think they do with the returned plane? Should they toss it in the trash? Should they resell it? Would you be ticked if you got a "used" plane with somebody's shavings in the throat?

For once I think some of the advice here is way off.

I disagree, I think this type of return policy was specifically created (by the stores) for exactly this type of situation. A proper evaluation, of whether or not a hand plane is going to be comfortable in your hands, can not be made at the store, in a catalog, or on a website. It must be done by taking it for a "test drive" in realistic conditions. So people become hesitant to put down lots of money in fear that when they get it home, it won't fit their hands (like the LV block did mine).

Knowing this, stores made a policy that if, after purchase, you find that it just doesn't fit you, return it, no problems. Now people are more comfortable making the purchase and more often than not (IMO), they'll keep the item. So the stores get more sales with this type of policy.

I would bet that if you asked your local woodcraft store owner or Rob Lee if they would object to this type of "buy both, evaluate which one is the better fit for you, and return the other" strategy, that they would not only be fine with it but would encourage it.

But if you still think this is unethical, you are entitled to your opinion and that's fine.

As to your other questions (maybe they were rhetorical) - I don't know what they do with the returned planes, but they're not throwing them in the trash (or else I'd take up dumpster diving) or reselling as if they're new. They probably send back to the manufacturer for refurb and/or sell at some open box/ scratch and dent sale.

[Joe Cipriano]

I'm kind of ambivalent towards any return policy of the nature that LV and LN offer. Sure - if the item shows up damaged, or breaks during regular use, or doesn't function as advertised, it's going back - and there better be "No Questions Asked". If the tote doesn't fit my hands, yeah - I'll return it. If all I did was handle it, the vendor can wipe my pawprints off and legally resell it as "New". If I'm making chips with it for 2 weeks, and decide that I just don't like it, well - the vendor is stuck with what is probably a perfectly good plane that can't be sold as new. Eats into their profits, which can eventually raise prices for everyone.

2 examples (probably not the best of examples, but heck - it's almost 4am, and this is the best I can do right now...;)):

Sears Craftsman handtools are guaranteed for life.

My father inherited some original Craftsman screwdrivers (the old blue handle ones). One of the Phillip's heads eventually wore out. He brought it back to Sears, and the salesman exchanged it for a new one - no questions asked.

The screwdriver wore out. I have no issue with exchanging it.

A close friend of mine backed over his Craftsman beam torque wrench with his van. He brought it back to Sears, and exchanged it for a new one.
I don't know if any questions were asked, but he got a new one, gratis.

I have a problem with this - it was my friend's mistake, and he made Sears pay for it.

I don't want anyone paying for my mistakes - even those of choice. If I use it for a while and don't like the tote, I'll grab a chunk of teak or mahogany or walnut and make a new one. If I really can't stand the tool, I'll sell it here - someone will get the tool at a discount, and I'll pay for my bad decision.

Probably why, before buying, I spend so much time reading reviews and talking to people who've used the stuff (like, uh - right here...:D); I don't like making bad decisions.

As long as the tool functions as advertised, I don't feel I have an ethical leg to stand on - even if the vendor tells me I do.

Just feels wrong.

I will agree that a vendor's guarantee makes it more likely that I will purchase something from them - increases my confidence that I'll receive a quality tool. That's enough for me.

I relinquish my soapbox for the day...;)

[Rob Luter]

Ok, I'll offer up my $0.02..........

I currently use both Bailey (#3, #4, #5, #5C, #7) and Veritas (LA Jack) planes. All the Stanleys are older models and have been tuned well, with the #3 and #4 featuring Hock Blades.

Based on the performance of all of the above, and if I had it to do all over again, I'd invest in a full set of Veritas Low Angle/Bevel Up Bench Planes (Low Angle Smoother, Bevel Up Smoother, Low Angle Jack, and Bevel Up Jointer) from Lee Valley. I've tried out the LN stuff and it's really nice, but the low centers of gravity and the nice mass of the LV stuff just makes them feel better. When I consider the super thick interchangable blades, adjustable mouths, lack of a chipbreaker to worry about, etc. it makes them a no-brainer for me. While I wish the depth adjustment was as "on the fly" convenient as the Bailey version, but it's a minor issue.

My Low Angle Jack performs well as a conventional jack, a large smoother, a small jointer, and an end grain shooter. I can interchange blades and deal with any wood type, or with changing grain within the same wood. Last night I was working to salvage a particularly sweet piece of QSWO with a bunch of swirling and reversing grain. Unfortunately it was also warped, twisted, and cupped. I started out with my Baileys, but soon switched to the Veritas Jack. I was able to swap blades on the fly to deal with the grain as needed, finishing with the 50 degree blade (62 degree cutting angle) and super tight mouth to leave a shiny smooth flat surface on both sides. Using the same tool, I jointed the edges and shot the ends. For my money it's tough to beat that kind of versatility.

Disclaimer: I'm an Engineering type that's more concerned about function and versatility than anything. Some folks are turned off by the unconventional look and feel of the Veritas planes but they work for me. There are a number of choices in hand planes and they are all correct depending on your circumstances. Your mileage may vary.

[Brian Kent]

I'm just a couple of years into this, but here are some of my surprises:

Lee Valley Bevel up jack is wonderful (not a surprise) but my old stanley #4 sometimes works even better.

When neither works, my high angle Mujingfang comes to the rescue.

I'm glad to have the LV BU as my main plane, but the variety is more important than I expected.

[Joe Cipriano]

I'm just a couple of years into this, but here are some of my surprises:

Lee Valley Bevel up jack is wonderful (not a surprise) but my old stanley #4 sometimes works even better.

When neither works, my high angle Mujingfang comes to the rescue.

I'm glad to have the LV BU as my main plane, but the variety is more important than I expected.

Brian:

In what situations do you find the Stanley better than the LV BU? Have you tried the LV 38° or 50° irons for the BU? This is at the heart of my initial post: Which one works best 95% of the time - and can the remaining 5% be covered by a BU with a high-angle iron? I'm not adverse to spending the money for the "right" tool, but the LV BU planes are slightly less expensive (and apparently slightly less complicated, which is not a bad thing) than their Bailey-style brethern.

I'm just trying to find out if the BUs will do everything an equivalent standard plane will - and do as good a job. From everyone's comments so far, it sounds like they do - except for needing more frequent honing, which doesn't bother me.

Any dissenters?

Rob:


Disclaimer: I'm an Engineering type that's more concerned about function and versatility than anything. Some folks are turned off by the unconventional look and feel of the Veritas planes but they work for me. There are a number of choices in hand planes and they are all correct depending on your circumstances. Your mileage may vary.

Agreed. I don't care what it looks like, or if it follows tradition or not - if it works, I'm happy...

Thanks to all for the info and advice - it is appreciated.