Two Oneida Gorilla Questions

[Jim Eller]

Just started working with my 3HP Super Gorilla. If fact, I'm running on a temporary setup until I get the duct work in. I currently run an 8x6x6 wye out of the thing and have one of the six inch reduced to four with a six foot flex hose on it. The other six inch is open.

The questions:

1 - After running the unit for an hour while doing some drum sanding and cutting on the table saw, I thought I would check to see if the motor(3HP Baldor) was warm. To my surprise, it is so warm, I can not hold my hand on it. Overloads never kicked out though. Is this normal????

2 - The 35 gallon collection drum hovers off of the floor as far as it can pull up on the flex hose between the cyclone and the drum. It appears to be sealed tight. The filter is clean and there is no dust or chips in the little dust pan. Everything is in the 35 gallon drum where it is suppose to be. I can also see stuff swirling in the clear hose connection even when I'm not doing anything. Is this normal??

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Becker]

Jim, you need to close up that open 6" side a bit...too much air flow will cause the motor to run at or beyond it's rating. That's why Oneida specifically says not to run it without duct work. At least get a blast gate on it and using an ammeter, figure out how much you need to close it down to get the amp draw lowered below the motor rating.

The drum will lift a little when it's empty. So does my 55 gallon bin. Normal operation.

[Walt Caza]

Hi Jim,

Congrats on getting d/c going in your shop. It is one of the milestones
indicating your shop is improving in all the right ways !

It may seem counter-intuitive, but it helps to remember:
Open gates and ductwork = heavy air movement, and motor works harder
closed gates and ducts = less air movement, and less work motor is doing
This is fundamental dust collection knowledge, even if not so obvious.
If you block off that open 6" duct with a scrap of sheet goods, it will stick
nicely until you shut down, and keeping the rest the same, your motor
will run cooler. (wide open will be hardest work, and may hurt your motor)

My 5hp Oneida lifts the 55 gallon steel drum off the floor when drum is
near empty. Don't worry, drum fills all too fast, and will find the floor
sooner rather than later. And yes, the clear hose connection between
cyclone bottom and drum always seems to show some swirling chips
whenever she is running. Just remnants, I figure...no big deal...
(kinda neat, for those who chose steel rather than clear plastic to get a peek at the action)

One lesson I will try to spare you from having to learn the hard way,
is keep an eye on how full your drum is...DO NOT allow the chips to
pile so high that they can get siphoned up and 'slam' your precious filter.
I have been lucky so far, and have not had to learn the hard way,
having benefited from the shared knowledge on the Creek!

be well,
Walt
:)

[Steven Wilson]

Jim, you should check the current draw with an ammeter. If you are running within spec then I wouldn't worry too much if the motor is warm. If you're drawing too many amps then close off the 6" port you've left open.

[Larry Browning]

Jim,
Baldor motors are famous for running warmer that other brands of motors. This is pretty normal for them. However, being too hot to touch seems a bit too warm. Like others have said you need to limit the air flow so that motor doesn't have to work so hard.

[Jim Eller]

Jim, Walt, Steven and Larry,

Thanks for the great info. I am seeing a learning curve from going from bag over bag to cyclone.

I was under the assumption(and wrong) that "letting it breath" would allow it to work easier. Thus leaving the other six inch open.

I did an amp draw as suggested. The way I had it, it drew approximately 14 amps. Blocking off the open six inch hole it drew approximately 9 amps. Did the hand test again and could really tell the difference. It is still quite warm but not hot.

Thanks again.

Once again, I know why I hang around here.

Jim

[Tom Veatch]

...

1 - After running the unit for an hour while doing some drum sanding and cutting on the table saw, I thought I would check to see if the motor(3HP Baldor) was warm. To my surprise, it is so warm, I can not hold my hand on it. Overloads never kicked out though. Is this normal????
...

What Walt says about the motor load is absolutely on target. You may be running the motor above its rated amperage with one half of the wye open. An example from testing my cyclone:

The motor has a Full Load Amperage (FLA) rating of 20.8 amps. With the motor and blower housing off the cyclone so that there is maximum flow through the blower, the motor draws 44 amps - way overloaded. Mounted on the cyclone and connected to the duct work with one blast gate open, the flow through the blower is reduced and the draw is between 16 and 17 amps.

Close off that open branch of the wye!

The amperage draw is directly related to the amount of work done by the motor. The more air moved through the blower, the more work done, and the more amps flow through the motor. If you completely sealed off the inlets so that no air goes through the impeller, the motor does no work and draws minimum current. In other words, with all blast gates closed, the motor is essentially idling, doing minimum work, drawing minimum current, and seeing minimum heat build up.

Of course that doesn't mean you can close off the motor's access to cooling air and expect the motor to survive.

[Jim Becker]

Once again, I know why I hang around here.

We have a lot of neat things planned for contributing members. I hope you'll consider stepping up for the cost of a latté and donut at Starbucks! :)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Jim Eller]

Tom,

Walt was right on as you can see from the readings I took. My thought process was reversed.

Jim,

Starbucks!!! I'm retired and on a fixed income. .....and, does the word Oneida mean any thing to ya ;):D:)



Thanks to all,
Jim

[glenn bradley]

You've gotten the right advice here. It seems opposite but, your motor runs easier when the ducts are closed off, floating barrel is self curing with use.

[Hank Phillips]

I'm personally thankful for the good advice here as I'm about ready to make a final decision on DC very soon after months of hemming and hawing (and procrastinating :eek:). Not trying to pull this off topic, but they're advertising a new 1.5hp Gorilla on the Oneida website, anybody see that one?

[Jim Becker]

Not trying to pull this off topic, but they're advertising a new 1.5hp Gorilla on the Oneida website, anybody see that one?

'Haven't seen that one yet Hank, but based on the 1.5hp unit I had before my 2hp commercial, I'd suggest you still consider the 2hp system. 'Better to have more capablity in this space than not enough.

[Jim Eller]

I had asked Oneida the same questions but of course they were closed for the weekend. I got an e-mail back and would like to share it.

I must say, I am really impressed with their service. They not only answered the questions in a timely manner but took time to explain why they answered the way they did.

I put them and Powermatic at the top of my customer service list.

Here is Oneida's answer:

Mr. Eller,
My name is XXXX XXXXXXX and I am an engineer here at Oneida Air Systems. We received your 12/15/07 email (I have inserted a copy below) and this is our reply.
Regarding the temperature of your motor after it ran for the 45 minute time period as the dust collector was removing dust from the drum sander, this 'very warm to the touch' motor outer case temperature is to be considered normal. Because your motor is a TEFC - Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled where the solid motor case prevents cooling air from passing directly over the motor winding (this is what would occur with an Open Dripproof motor), its only mechanism for the transfer of heat out of the windings is by conduction/convection to the motor case which is a heat sink of sorts. Knowing that the TEFC motor by design will run hot, Baldor's engineers normally specify Class F insulation (Class F insulation has a maximum temperature rating of 311 degree F) for all their TEFC motors. This high quality Class F electrical insulation that Baldor uses in the construction of their TEFC motors allows them to run for many many years of trouble free use. The original reason that the TEFC design came about is because the internal components of single phase motors don't like to be exposed to dirt and dust contaminants. Things like the bearings, the centrifugal switch and the winding(s) will fail prematurely if they see large amounts of dirt/dust. This is why even though a TEFC motor runs hotter, they are generally more reliable than an open drip proof.

Regarding material inside your cyclone staying in suspension, that is quite unusual and would normally be associated with an air leak. However, you indicate that there doesn't appear to be any leak. The most obvious way to tell whether you have everything underneath the cyclone cone properly sealed is to empty the drum and see whether the drum lifts off the floor and dangles at the end of the 10" diameter flexhose. If the drum lifts off the floor when empty or near empty, it means that you have the two bandclamps properly tightened to the flexhose and also, the lid is tightly clamped to the drum. If there are no obvious air leaks, try cracking open another blastgate on your system when you hear material rubbing on the inside of your cyclone. This will allow your fan to move more air flow through the cyclone. The amount of air flowing through the cyclone is important because that is what spins the material out of the air stream (the air applies centrifugal force to the dust and chips 'pinning' them to the inside wall of the cyclone - the dust/chips then drop out of the cone discharge by gravity because once the dust/chips are out of the air stream, there is nothing to prevent them from falling downward into the collection drum).

I hope that the information I've provided in this email answers the questions you asked in your email. Let me know if you need anything else. Take care and have a great evening.
Best Regards,
XXXX XXXXXXX
Oneida Air Systems

This may be helpful to other Oneida owners.

Thanks,
Jim

[Chuck Burns]

You might even want to look at the 2 1/2 HP SDG. The shipping is a whole lot higher for 3 HP and above so 2 1/2 seems to be the sweet spot. Bur either way call Oneida; they're very free with advice on the phone. And he quality of the units is superb.