Need square guidance

[Jim Fox]

Need to get a good square, initially for tool setup......you know, checking 90°. Probably need a smaller one for layout too, mortise locations, etc.

Can you all give me a suggestion or two for something good that won't necessarily kill the bank?

TIA

[Clint Jones]

One word. STARRETT

[Jim Koepke]

Need to get a good square, initially for tool setup......you know, checking 90°. Probably need a smaller one for layout too, mortise locations, etc.

Can you all give me a suggestion or two for something good that won't necessarily kill the bank?

TIA

It really depends on your preferences and how much breaks the bank.

I have seen many merchants with a kit of three or four squares sold as a set for a reasonable price. These are usually machinist or engineering style, all metal, with blade sizes from 2 inch up to 10 inch.

Jim

[Mark Stutz]

Jim,
I resisted for several years. I just couldn't see spending that kind of money...IT"S JUST A SQUARE! After getting extremely frustrated finding my joinery skills lacking, I realized that some of it had to do with poor tool set up (I know, I know, this is the hand tool forum:D) I got the Starrett. It stays in the box and is only used to check and re-align other squares and for occasional tool set up. Bite the bullet and get a good SQUARE SQUARE.

Mark

[Phillip Pattee]

Clint is right, Starrett is very good. You should also consider Browne & Sharp and Mitutoyo. Check "machinging" at auction sites as well as the typical carpentry/woodworking tools since the combination square is technically a machinists tool adopted by woodworkers. The Best Things sell Browne & Sharp tools, many other retailers sell Starrett so they are easy to find. Since they are so well made, I have found that the vintage/used tools are in excellent usable condition. Engineers squares are okay, but for woodworking, I think you will find more uses for the combination square, and protractor head. You might also find a double square useful. These are all good for machine set up and layout for woodworking. Sometimes you can find combination square heads that are missing the scribe. Since it has missing parts, it doesn't demand a premium price. For woodworking and machine set up the scribe isn't something I use--so you can pick up a bargain that way. I hope this helps.:)

[Lewis Moon]

One word. STARRETT

I'll second Clint here. I got my dad's Starretts ( he was a tool and die maker in the 40's-60's) and I would never part with them.

[Randal Stevenson]

It really depends on your preferences and how much breaks the bank.

I have seen many merchants with a kit of three or four squares sold as a set for a reasonable price. These are usually machinist or engineering style, all metal, with blade sizes from 2 inch up to 10 inch.

Jim

No matter what you get, check it! For cheap, starting out while waiting for good tools, I started using some plastic drafting triangles. They were inexpensive, via an office supply store, and work great!
I then received my machinists squares, based on what/where a machinist friend of mine recommended. The largest was visably out of square.
Carpenters squares, get used more for construction, and since they may get dropped, I use more inexpensive ones for that.

[mike holden]

Let me state the obvious - for an inexpensive square, get a drafting triangle.
For less than 10 bucks, you can get as accurate as starrett, brown & sharpe, mitutoyo, etc. It is only for checking square though, you cant use it to scribe lines, etc.
Mike

Also, not so inexpensive, I would also look at the incra squares, mine is accurate and incredibly versatile.

[Brian Dormer]

For general setup tasks (getting fences and blades square) I found that a little brass (I've also seen stainless) triangle is the most helpful tool. I think I got mine at Eagle America (search for "Brass Angle Block). I'm also fond of a good steel straightedge.

After that - it starts to get a little more expensive - Wixey Angle Block, Digital Calipers, Magnetic block and a dial gauge...

[Ken Werner]

I really like my LV 4" adjustable square. About $30 or so, and worth all 3,000 pennies.

Ken

[Dan Barr]

hey there,

Always check any square. NEVER depend solely on ANY tool.

also, see this thread on squares:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=71149

I own 4 starrett squares 1 starrett hook rule and 1 starrett straight edge.

(1) 4" double square: keep it in my workshop apron, upper chest pocket and use the snot out of it. dovetails, mortise and tenons, blade height, fence angle, etc. etc.

(1) 4" combo square with center finder: used less but none the less used like a normal tool.

(1) 6" double square: used quite frequently for any larger joints (bigger than 2") Large mortise and tenons, lap joints, etc. etc.

(1) 12" combo square: used for checking assemblies for square after glue ups, checking large pieces for square, etc. etc.

(1) 36" starrett straight edge: used for machine setup. making jointer tables parallel, checking soles on planes for flatness, checking other straightedges (primary "users") and surfaces for flatness and straightness, etc. etc. Used only when i want really high accuracy.

I value all of these tools very much but i also use them very much too. i have some crown squares, plain stainless master squares and a few other oddball squares too. I just got tired of thinking about the fact that i knew they were off by a little bit and that i was not doing the best work i knew i could do.

i reccomend buying a starrett wholeheartedly. I reccomend using it too. i deliberately challenge myself not to drop it or act carelessly. i expect myself to be deliberate in my woodworking as well. no cut or mark or measure is made without deliberation. Fingers are not kept by being careless either. why cant i handle a tool the same way? i have not dropped one yet and im always conscious of their locations and any hazard that might endanger them.

obviously, any tool can be defective and i have heard of a starrett not being good. there is a thread here from a member that received a bad starrett. His was replaced immediately by starrett with a perfect replacement too. For the money, the fact that 99.999% of all starretts are within .001 right out of the box, and the repeatability of such a high quality tool over its quite lengthy lifetime, you cant really do any better.

at best, you could say that brown and sharpe and mitutoyo are equals. I just prefer the look and feel of starrett. very well designed and pleasing to the senses. it has a good feel in your hand, attractive features, and DEAD-ON REPEATABILITY.

i believe that you cant go wrong with a starrett. you should be able to get a 4" double or combo square for $30-40.00 if you look around.

i bought my 12" combo square on ebay and it was perfect. there are a few good deals on starrett on ebay too.

good luck,

dan

[Brian Kent]

I picked up my Starrett recently at CraftsmanStudio. They have a sale going. There is really no comparison with my Empire (out-of) square.

[Kevin Groenke]

Starrett tools are worth the price, but there are alternatives. I've needed to find them because the Starretts tend to disappear from our loosely controlled toolcrib. I still have Starretts in my Gerstner box, but the students get others. These are nearly as functional, and exponentially squarer than necessary for woodworking, of course they lack the cachet.

We have half a dozen 12" combos from Grizzly that are incredibly serviceable considering the price and abuse they get. I would not hesitate to recommend these if you don't want to spring for a name brand.
http://grizzly.com/products/4-pc-Combination-Square-12-/G5726

A 6" and a 12" combo square is never far away, but if the 4" double square isn't in my hand it's in my apron pocket. The cheapest good one I've found is by PEC tools.

http://www.productsengineering.com/tools/onlinecatalog/squares/doublesolidsquares.html

McMaster Carr sells the PEC for $28.23
8606A54
http://www.mcmaster.com/

Woodcraft, Lee Valley and others sell a nice 4" double square for ~$30 that LOOKS A LOT like a PEC, I would guess that these are made to spec by PEC.

I also have a bunch of vintage squares (and rules and calipers, and on and on) that I've gotten from flea markets and that auction site. I've never paid more than $20 to my door. I have an old Craftsman 12" that I like so it's in my on-site satchel, I've got 2)older 4" double squares by Union that I may like better than the Starrett.

Of course if you're buying used (or new for that matter) make sure that they're SQUARE before using them. I have a 6" .0001" tolerance Starrett, machinist's square reserved specifically for machine set-up and checking squares. If you stop at a machine shop I bet they would be happy to check a square for you, be careful, you might be there a while (some of the machinists I've known over the years are pretty desperate for company).

If you want to get the best, Manson Tool has been known to have good prices on Starrett.
http://www.mansontool.com/cart/shopexd.asp?id=571

current sampling
4" double square 13A $41.50
6" combo 11H-6-4R $48.45
12" combo 33H-12-4R $59.95
12" combo w/center & protractor 9-12-4R $135.80

Craftsman Studio has a 110% price matching policy which if heard of people using for Starrett.
Amazon will sometimes have pretty good buys.

A simple, precision instrument is a real joy to behold (not unlike the simple precise joinery that they make possible).

g'luck,

[Phillip Pattee]

Hartville Tool has Starrett on sale right now and free shipping in December.
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/11790

They also have an economy range, which is also on sale, that they claim is machined to American standards of accuracy.
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/12584


A box of four engineers squares. The 6" square is supposed to be accurate to .0005"
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/11547

[Wiley Horne]

Jim,

I really like Starrett (and Mitutoyo also). I believe Mike Henderson said in another thread that his Mitutoyo combination square has a smoother action than Starrett--kinda stuck in my head.

Anyway, here's what I wanted to add to the thread. Dunno how good your eyes are, but my eyes really appreciate the satin chrome finish. For me, the difference between the satin chrome and a regular steel finish is like the difference between seeing and not seeing. This comment would not apply to something like a No. 20 or No. 55 precision square, where it's not graduated. But it does apply to Starrett's combination square, which is can be purchased in satin chrome (make sure you get the satin chrome version, especially if buying at discount!), versus a Starrett double square, which is not made in satin chrome.

Wiley