What's the story with gel stains?

[Jason Ramler]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and this is my first posting so please excuse me if this topic has already been beat to death. I have recently been experimenting with different stains to match the dark color of my old oak woodwork. I recently bought a 1913 house which has great woodwork. The previous owner stripped and sanded the woodwork in one of the rooms, so I'm trying to match it with the rest of the house. My main question is with gel stains. True, they get the wood darker, but they leave an almost painted on look. They have an eveness and ease of use, but something in the final look seems unnatural. I have since learned that the darkness of the woodwork came, not from the stain, but from the tinted shellac that was used. Problem being solved, I'm still curious about gel stains and what is the appropriate application for them. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[Steve Schoene]

The best use is for woods that are blotch prone. Since they don't penetrate very much, they don't blotch very much. If the excess is vigorously wiped off they won't paint out the grain--though they won't make the wood really dark either.

[Brian Weick]

NGR method - I think you will find this outcome exceptional and eye popping grain appearance- this is a professional stain application using alcohol and rubbing stain- call your local paint store- not the borg! it is more expensive but i will tell you one thing- once i used it- I will never use anything else- I'm hooked :eek:
Brian

[Jason Ramler]

Brian,

Thanks for the reply. Could you elaborate a little more as to what the "NGR" method is. It's more than fair to say that I am a novice when it comes to the art of finishing. I would love to experiment with what you are talking about if I new a little more.

[Brian Weick]

the NGR method- NGR stands for "Non Raising Grain" stain. It can be used on it's own or in conjunction with a rubbing stain. The first application I use is the "tint" -background color- this is an alcohol based dye , the second is the rubbing stain - - the alcohol especially dries very quick and you have to keep pace if your applying without a spray. the second is the rubbing stain. If you look at Min wax for example- that is mostly spirits and less pigment- once you use the NGR you will notice a markedly diference from other stain applications- more work but the results speak for themselves. I have been very happy with the outcome of any project with this method - eye catching grain structure appears. you have to sand according depending on the wood you are using and what section of the tree it came from -IE -sap vs heart sections.
here is a little explanation- http://ppgamercoatnz.ppgpmc.com/pdf/880ngr.pdf

talk to your local "paint" if you go to the Borg or Lowe's and ask them for this- you will get some strange looks from then probably- that's because they don't have this and are not familiar with this.

Hope this helps.
Brian

[Todd Burch]

It is my personal opinion that gel stains are best left on the shelves of the store where you buy your 2X4's and light bulbs.

Todd

[Rob Amadon]

Todd,

They have their purposes. They work well as a glaze to add color to the pores of some woods and they also work well when used to darken nooks and crannies in order to "age" a piece.

Rob

[Jay Jolliffe]

Brian....How are you applying the dye...I've sprayed it on but never tried wiping it on ...on a large piece it might be hard to get it even if it's wiped on

[Brian Weick]

You can apply the NGR with a brush or spray gun - you don't wipe on the NGR dye- If you brush the NGR on just avoid ponding in one area - it's fairly easy to work with ~ experiment on a piece of scrap and see what works best. You can spray it on as well - but that can get really messy unless you have a paint area set up with the proper ventilation system in place. I always use a rubbing stain as a top layer for color and grain popping results - I brush that on shortly after the NGR dye is applied then rub the stain to the desired color depth and appearance. It is advisable not to rub the NGR on- it evaporates to fast. try it with a brush first- you should not see overlap with the NGR ~ Hope this helps
Brian:)

[Steve Schoene]

I generally think that NGR dyes should be applied by spraying to avoid the problems with application by brush or wiping due to the rapid drying. If they are to be applied by hand then I would definately use the retarder. You won't find NGR dye at ordinary paint stores either, usually only at the more limited number of stores catering to the professional and commercial trade. Behlen NGR dye (callled Solar Lux) is available at Woodcraft and a few others through on-line sources. Not all NGR stains are the same in terms of dry time so some experimenting is called for. Most also have methanol which is a bit more toxic than I like to use freely.

But, there isn't any magic with NGR. Water based dyes will give virtually the same color effects without the time pressure. In fact, I've found more natural colors available among the large array of pre-mixed colors in the Lockwood dye arsenal. (Also the same as the J.E. Moser house label sold by Woodworkers Supply.) I would strongly recommend that powdered dye mixed with water be the first choice for dye, absent spray facilities. Also the water soluble dyes (as opposed to dyes that can be thinned with alcohol) lift less when a shellac top coat is applied. That's a consideration for me since I use shellac frequently.

Waterbased dyes do have the problem of raising grain. But this is pretty easy to deal with. You can reduce it greatly by pre-wetting the wood, and lightly sanding off the fuzz before applying the dye. But I usually just bury the fuzz in the first coat of finish or shellac, and sand it off after it has been stiffened when those dry.