Squares Are Not Square, and Levels Are Not Level

[Bob Feeser]

Here is one for you. Has anyone not checked their square, or level to see if it is square or level. I will never forget when someone asked me that question, without any explanation. Then I dug a little further, and learned about reversing a square, drawing a line, and also taking a bubble level, reverse it on the same surface, and see if the bubble is in the same spot. You will be shocked when you see the results. Here is a review I wrote back in Amazon in 2002, when I was shocked when I bought an expensive Freud square, and found out it was not square. Here is a copy and paste of the review. Check the pile before you buy. :cool:
PS: I know a lot of creekers talk about the square method to check it, I was thinking that there may be some who haven't yet unfolded this surprise and would gain something from hearing about it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3187NVSEW1L.gif (http://www.amazon.com/Freud-DB012-12-Inch-Try-Square/dp/B0000225YQ/ref=cm_cr-mr-img)Freud DB012 12-Inch Try Square (http://www.amazon.com/Freud-DB012-12-Inch-Try-Square/dp/B0000225YQ/ref=cm_cr-mr-title) Availability: Currently unavailable
5 of 5 people found the following review helpful:
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/stars-1-0._V47060502_.gif Squares are not square, and levels are not level, September 5, 2002
I bought this because I am crazy about the quality of most of the Freud equipment. Part of the reason I wanted it, was to proudly hang it on the wall. Brass, Rosewood, and the Freud name emblazoned on the handle. When setting up my Radial Arm Saw, the instructions told me to check my square, to see if it is truly at 90 degrees. You lay it along a straight edge of your fence, then draw a pencil line across the table, (or on a piece of paper taped to the table) then flip it over, and draw the line again. If they are not exactly the same, it's not square. Well this thing is well off. Ok maybe by a couple of degrees, but isn't this tool designed to make sure, you are setting up your project, in true square. Well it isn't true. I will buying more Freud router bits in the future, as well as many items in their product line, but this square is not square.
Fortunately I was able to make it square. By clamping the blade between two pieces of wood in the vise, and moderately tapping on the handle with a hammer, protected by a block of wood, I was able to change the pitch of the handle to a perfect 90 degrees. Did it loosen the handle? Not at all. I tested it by grabbing the handle, pulling on it really hard, to change the pitch, and it held without any change. So you can fix it. Don't send it back!
I think in all fairness, that this Freud square should be put in a category with 90 percent of the other squares and levels out there. They are not square and level. If you go into you local store, and check the squares for square as mentioned above, you will find that they are not square. You can also check the bubble levels, by reversing them the same way, and flipping them over, end to end, and side to side. I went into the local building supply store, and out of a pile of 20 levels, I found only a few that were true.
If you buy a square that is stamped out of one piece, the way a framers square is made, it is square. But, when buying a square that requires assembly, as in installing the handle, their is a good chance that it is out.
Is this Freud square inferior to the rest of the squares out there? No, it isn't square, just like most of them. I do love the rosewood handle, and blued blade. It's made out of great materials, and well put together. Now all they have to do is get the square as good as the rest of the tool. I was delighted that I was able to turn it into a true tool.

[Dan Barr]

Ive bought numerous Starrett tools and not one of them has given me a reason to doubt their accuracy.

I wont buy anything else when it comes to squares, straight edges or the like.

v/r

dan

[Mike Marcade]

I bought 2 Incra Guaranteed Squares from Amazon. I checked them with known good squares and they were both .005-.010 out over the total length.

Then I went to my local Woodcraft and checked the Guaranteed squares they had there, same issue.

Amazon has them back now, and I have all Starrett stuff now.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob.....You want to check your tape measures too!

A few years ago my brother living in Wyoming offered to help an old high school buddy build one of these kit sheds.

My brother and our Mom's husband built two walls. Bill built the other two. When they went to assemble it.....You guessed it. Bill's new tape measure was mismanufactured.....of by 3/4".......

[keith ouellette]

I won't say where I bought my first, overpriced brass and wood handled squares because I don't want to start trouble. Much to my dismay when someone clued me in to the method Bob mentioned I found my set of squares were not square. It explained a lot. I needed a square and went to several places testing squares and found a couple of winners at lowes for a fraction of what I payed for the my box set.

[harry strasil]

a pair of starret # 111 stair gages and a good steel ruler is the best way to check a framing square for square using the 3-4-5 method. 15-20-25 is the most accurate tho.

[Bill Huber]

Bob, good post, that is one thing we all need to check now and then.

I have 2 Starretts and they check out right on and I use those as my standard.
Carpenter squares are a joke in most cases and are not square at all. I showed the guy and HD how bad the ones they had there and he didn't believe it.

I did buy an M3 square from Price Cutter and it was way off. They do have instructions on how to adjust it and I did and now I am very happy with it.

Side note, the M3 is a great square to have, I really like the way it handles and the way I can copy a line around a corner.

[Dan Barr]

Harry,

can you elaborate on the 15-20-25 and the 3-4-5 method. i assume this is the pythagorean theorem put to use.

v/r

dan

[Bill Wyko]

I actually have had a framing square that was out of square. I used a punch and gave it a good smack on the inside corner. Brought it bact to usability.:) I don't know if a good smack to the outside corner would do the same in the opposite direction though. :D

[Dan Barr]

Yes, it will.

thats exactly how you do it. peen the inside or outside corners to adjust the square.

v/r

dan

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Harry,

can you elaborate on the 15-20-25 and the 3-4-5 method. i assume this is the pythagorean theorem put to use.

v/r

dan

Dan....You nailed it.......you measure 3 down one side......4 down the other side......the hypotenuse should measure 5 if the two sides are perpendicular to each other.............15, 20, 25.....is the same only 5 times larger and therefore should be more accurate. A lot of carpenters use this method constantly!

[Dan Barr]

thanks ken,

good to know. Very good to know.

v/r

dan

[Bill Huber]

Dan....You nailed it.......you measure 3 down one side......4 down the other side......the hypotenuse should measure 5 if the two sides are perpendicular to each other.............15, 20, 25.....is the same only 5 times larger and therefore should be more accurate. A lot of carpenters use this method constantly!


But what is to say the device you are measuring with is accurate?

So the framing square has numbers marked on it which could be a little off and the tape you use to measure across could be off.
I am not trying to be a butt but I was just wondering, my boss always uses this method and has tied to get me to use it also.

I always have used the flip it over and check it that way.

[Dan Barr]

I think the both should be used in tandem.

If you measure and do the 3-4-5 and it still comes out wrong according to the flip-over/straight line method, then you know your tape or rule is off as well.

thats the thing about checking accuracy. sometimes you find out more than you want to know. then you have to deal with it.

v/r

dan

[Bill Huber]

I think the both should be used in tandem.

If you measure and do the 3-4-5 and it still comes out wrong according to the flip-over/straight line method, then you know your tape or rule is off as well.

thats the thing about checking accuracy. sometimes you find out more than you want to know. then you have to deal with it.

v/r

dan


Good point....... Good Point.

[Nissim Avrahami]

Hi Bob

You are so correct. Some 10 years ago I bought "Machinist squares" (4 of them) just to find out that non of them was square...since then, I don't buy any square...I make them myself.

I found that the plastic drawing triangles are very square and accurate even in 45° or 30° so, I "copied" them to a plywood and, on few of them I added a strip to the base so I can use it for both checking and marking.

Regards
niki

[Chuck Burns]

Having been a machinist in a past life all I have to say is to drop the dollars once for Starret. It's extremely expensive but there is a reason; they're not just charging for their name. Use the Starrett when things are really critical, like for machine set-up and checking and to check your "users".

[Lance Norris]

Im not trying to start a fight, but I would recommend checking every square you buy with one you know is true, even a Starrett. I recently had trouble with a 6" Starrett combination square. I got the problem resolved, but the new Starrett square was clearly defective.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=69315&highlight=starrett+square

[Dan Barr]

Hey Lance,

glad to see you here. i remember your post.

I check my starretts occasionally also. it's not that im not pleased with their quality, but, im a little paranoid. they always check out though.

v/r

dan

[Al Willits]

Lance hit it right on, I was always taught to check any set up tool or measuring device before starting, only takes a minute and can save ya grief.

Al

[Thom Sturgill]

I think the both should be used in tandem.

If you measure and do the 3-4-5 and it still comes out wrong according to the flip-over/straight line method, then you know your tape or rule is off as well.

thats the thing about checking accuracy. sometimes you find out more than you want to know. then you have to deal with it.

v/r

dan

For the 3/4/5 method you just need CONSISTENT units for the method to be accurate. It does not matter whether you use 3/4/5 inches, feet, meters, cubits, or miles.

If the tape varies unit to unit, (for example, the distance from 1' to 2' is not the same as the distance between the 2' and 3' marks) then it is truly worthless.

[Chris Padilla]

For the 3/4/5 method you just need CONSISTENT units for the method to be accurate. It does not matter whether you use 3/4/5 inches, feet, meters, cubits, or miles.

If the tape varies unit to unit, (for example, the distance from 1' to 2' is not the same as the distance between the 2' and 3' marks) then it is truly worthless.

Keerrrrect!! In a pinch, I've just used scrap wood...could've cared less what it's length was...just marked three of 'em one way, 4 of 'em up, and then measure for 5 of 'em across.

[Gary Keedwell]

Hi Bob

You are so correct. Some 10 years ago I bought "Machinist squares" (4 of them) just to find out that non of them was square...since then, I don't buy any square...I make them myself.

I found that the plastic drawing triangles are very square and accurate even in 45° or 30° so, I "copied" them to a plywood and, on few of them I added a strip to the base so I can use it for both checking and marking.

Regards
niki
Plastic squares are not all made the same. I have heard my share of horror stories about people who ASSUMED plastic squares were some kind of "standard". To to fair I would also check metal squares,too. As a machinist in a prior life I can tell you that standards are not like they were 20 years ago. In today's market, where profits rule, there is no guarantee where it was made or who, or if, it was inspected properly. (quality control).

[Dan Barr]

What is the world coming too. people dont even sell square squares anymore. :D

seriously though, its very irritating and stirs up a little anger that these kinds of practices are the norm.

What can we do? i know i only buy starrett when i want something thats worth a &%$@. i wont buy anything else. But i guess that me being selective does not add up to a drop in the bucket huh?

I guess that the public is generally ignorant and there are plenty of them buying this crap. so... i guess im not really affecting their market segment.

I still wont buy that crap though.

aaarrrggggghhhhhhh, :mad::mad::mad:

dan

[Gary Keedwell]

I worked for a company that manufactured their own product. This company ( I worked there 15 1/2 years) did not need to tighten their purse strings because they have a monopoly on the market and they make huge profits.
So some suit decides to cut back on production costs. The first thing they did was to eliminate the floor inspector. This is the guy who inspects the first piece before it goes into production and makes random inspections during production.
So now these uninspected parts are brought to final inspection that usually only inspects a few out of the whole lot. Well, needless to say, this messes up assembly because there are now tons of parts that went through that are out of tolerance. Now alot of the parts will still go together but they are not right so there's where the trouble will be after the customer has this device over a period of time.
What I'm getting at is...they mat have some quality control....but that doesn't mean anything if it isn't implemented correctly. Most of the ISO quality control is strickly paperwork and not actual inspection.:mad:
Gary

[Howard Acheson]

No matter how much you spend for a device, you still don't know if it is square. I ran a large tool and die shop and we purchased a number of Brown & Sharp and Starrett devices and some of them were not "square". We had "standards" that our quality department periodically had validated by an outside service that we then used to verify the worker's tools.

One day, one of our designers brought in two plastic drawing triangles he had purchased at a local art supply store. He had them compared to our standards and they were as accurate as the tools could measure. The triangle cost a couple of dollars each. They would certainly serve very well as the "standard" in any woodworking shop to validate and/or adjust other devices.

An excellent way to validate the accuracy of the plastic squares is to use two squares on a flat surface. Get a $10-12 plastic 30-60-90 drafting square. To prove it's exactly 90°, take two to a glass counter, put the shorter legs on the counter and face the longer legs away from each other and butt them together (like a teepee). If the legs exactly butt, you can assume you have two perfect 90° angles. Using one of the plastic squares, do the same thing using your other tools. Any that mismatch, means that the tool is not square. You can also take the plastic square with you whenever you go to purchase another tool. Keep your "standard" somewhere where it doesn't get banged up.

Finally, remember that the wood you are using will expand and contract a couple of thousands from one day to the other. Does't pay to get too uptight.

While we are at it, I also only purchase the cheapest of adjustable squares. I square them with a drafting triangle and an auger file until they are square across 10". And I own a Bridge City square that isn't that accurate. Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.

The key is to NEVER use your best square on for day to day measuring. Use it only as a reference tool to verify your other day to day tools.

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley 46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.

[Jay Kilpatrick]

Hummmm.... We're paranoid about being square, what about the parallel edges of your blades (on squares and straight edges) actually being parallel? I've returned quite a few that weren't parallel, so subsequently either the inner or outer edge could never be square simultaneously.

Just my .02 canadian (my advice is more valuable that way, right?:D)

[Dan Barr]

Were these Starrett's that you returned?

I have a Starrett straight edge and its the most parrallel thing i own. Dead on as far as i can measure with a digital caliper. my blades on my starrett squares are also dead on. but i check those before i buy them. the guys at the store always look at me funny when i check their squares for accuracy.

i put two of the woodcraft straight edges together and there was light shining between the two edges, so i handed the guy at the counter the two straight edges and told him about it. he put them behind the counter. I came in a week or two later and they were back on the shelf. LOL

v/r

dan

[Mike Marcade]

Were these Starrett's that you returned?

I have a Starrett straight edge and its the most parrallel thing i own. Dead on as far as i can measure with a digital caliper. my blades on my starrett squares are also dead on. but i check those before i buy them. the guys at the store always look at me funny when i check their squares for accuracy.

i put two of the woodcraft straight edges together and there was light shining between the two edges, so i handed the guy at the counter the two straight edges and told him about it. he put them behind the counter. I came in a week or two later and they were back on the shelf. LOL

v/r

dan

I was at my local Woodcraft telling the guy my story about Incra guaranteed squares not being square. He said well ... I would trust the incra before I would trust brand x. Sooooo ... we took an Incra he had out of the box and sure enough it wasn't square either. I'm pretty sure he put it right back on the shelf too. :mad:

[Chris Padilla]

One thing to keep in mind is that NOTHING is dead square and dead parallel. Everything has tolerances associated with it. Heck, even the temperature can worsen or improve a square's accuracy. Just like moisture can impact wood.

Can ya tolerate that?! :D

[Scott Turner]

So let me guess, the combination square I use all the time is probably junk for checking the squarness of wood after I have jointed and cross cut it. :mad:

[Greg Cole]

"Stainless steel machinist's squares are only square until you drop them. I have had several over the years and each has found a away to drop to the floor.".......
Same to be said for the anodized aluminum squares etc... DAMHIKT.:rolleyes: I had a purty set of the anodized squares that were pretty accurate when new.... they've all been "adjusted" by re-machining them after sudden stops at the bottom of a free fall.
I will say it's nice having a machine shop at the day job as our in house gearhead machinist likes to make sure things are rather accurate by his terms which is good 'nuff for me. That and he likes to teach-show how to indicate & set up as priority 1... the actual machining is secondary to a proper set up regardless of material steel, wood...

Greg

[Michael Schwartz]

I have a crown try square I payed $20.00 for that is not square.


Every woodworker needs at least a 12" starett or equivalent combination square.

I check my cheap engineers squares to my starett every time I use them to verify that they havent been knocked out of square.

Periodically I check my starett squares to a square known to be accurate.

[Terry Sparks]

We can all over think this issue until the cows come home if we want, but the $150.00 square you can buy out of a fancy magazine isn't worth .02 if your cutter (saw blade) is out of square with your table.

[Dan Barr]

Youre ruining my little world Chris! The walls are falling down and the ceiling is getting lower and lower.

I dont think im going to make it...................

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

LOLOLOLOL

dan

[Dan Barr]

I think the main point here is that we are striving to do excellent work and not just "acceptable" work. The goal is to stay as close to "square" as possible. We also need to have the wherewithal to know to check our tools, regadless of brand or price.

I think im going to check out all of my stuff tonight.

v/r

dan

[Greg Pavlov]

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley 46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.
I've had a Stanley combination square for years that was dead-on. It's time to replace it and I'm not sure whether to try another one, figuring that there is a good chance I'll have to exchange it once or twice, or to Spend More Money and hope that buys me something.

[Gary Keedwell]

In a comparison test reported in Fine Woodworking Magazine a couple of years ago, the Stanley 46-123 square was awarded the best value. It's much less expensive than a Starrett and just as accurate.
__________________
Howie.........


I wonder how a woodworking magazine determines that a Stanley is just as accurate as a Starrett?

I wonder if a machinist magazine compared hand planes...would anybody listen?

Really now....I have a confession....I never really used a Stanley square. Now that being said..I was a lead machinist and I ran an inspection station in a manufacturing facility and I can tell you if anybody pulled a Stanley square out of their machinist's tool box, they would have been the laughing stock of the company.
Again...I never calibrated a Stanley square...but I have calibratedStarrett, Brown and Sharpes and Mitutoyos.
Of all the companies that are out there....Mitutoyo makes some of the best measurement tools on the market, especially their digital verniers and digital micrometers. ( I'm not sure of their squares, though)
Gary

[Mike Marcade]

I wonder how a woodworking magazine determines that a Stanley is just as accurate as a Starrett?

I wonder if a machinist magazine compared hand planes...would anybody listen?

Really now....I have a confession....I never really used a Stanley square. Now that being said..I was a lead machinist and I ran an inspection station in a manufacturing facility and I can tell you if anybody pulled a Stanley square out of their machinist's tool box, they would have been the laughing stock of the company.
Again...I never calibrated a Stanley square...but I have calibrated Stanleys, Brown and Sharpes and Mitutoyos.
Of all the companies that are out there....Mitutoyo makes some of the best measurement tools on the market, especially their digital verniers and digital micrometers. ( I'm not sure of their squares, though)
Gary

Gary,

Maybe you could check that Stanley square on a Stanley pink granite surface plate? :D

[Dan Barr]

They said that it was the "best value."

To me, that's still a load of you know what. How can anyone put a "best value" on 90 degrees. It either 90 or its not. (within a couple of thousandths)

Satire: "Well, the stanley is 7.99 and its measuring out to 89.965 degrees. But the Incra is 34.99 and its coming out to 89.987. So we think Stanley is the "best value". " We know that you are not going to actually do any real "quality" or "fine" woodwork, and therefore you dont really need an accurate square because you'll never really take the time or buy the tools to make anything nice anyway."

Ive got just as good a chance of getting a good square out of the bubble gum machine. :D

LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLLOL :D


ciao,

dan

[Al Willits]

""""""""
they would have been the laughing stock of the company
"""""""

On the other hand, if anybody pulled a new starrett out of its box and proceeded to use with out checking it, I'd kick them out of whatever shop I had.

When dealing with squares, square is square, its a piece of metal and I'd rather have a true Stanley then a out of square Starett.

Also if some one laughed at the tools I used, they better damn well be better than me, at what ever it is we're doing.

Al...who has starrtt, mututoyo and stanley, and each has a place and each gets checked for accuracy...prob not often enough though..:)

[Thomas Knighton]

As if there wasn't enough other stuff for the new woodworker to have to remember before actually building anything... :D

Seriously, this has been a great thread for me. Now I know that just because the package says "square", doesn't mean it actually is. I suspect this knowledge will help me out a great deal in the time to come ;)

Tom

[Gary Keedwell]

""""""""
they would have been the laughing stock of the company
"""""""

On the other hand, if anybody pulled a new starrett out of its box and proceeded to use with out checking it, I'd kick them out of whatever shop I had.

When dealing with squares, square is square, its a piece of metal and I'd rather have a true Stanley then a out of square Starett.

Also if some one laughed at the tools I used, they better damn well be better than me, at what ever it is we're doing.

Al...who has starrtt, mututoyo and stanley, and each has a place and each gets checked for accuracy...prob not often enough though..:)
I was only talking in general when I was referring to machine shop usage.
A Ford Escort would beat a Porche in a drag race if the Porche had a faulty clutch or maybe a flat tire.:)
Gary

[Al Willits]

I figured that, but being the owly old fart I am, I just had to give ya a hard time....you being a tool snob and all....

Al...who's hiding under his desk as he types this....:D:D

[Peter Kuhlman]

I have a 3 square set from Bridge City Tools that are beautiful but useless. Well, one is pretty accurate but the other 2 are just incredibly out of square. Never again will I purchase their stuff. I have always assumed my Incra "guaranteed" squares were accurate. Now you have me doubting them. I will check them but heck, they claim to be accurate to something like 0.0005 over the total length.
Pete

[Gary Keedwell]

I figured that, but being the owly old fart I am, I just had to give ya a hard time....you being a tool snob and all....

Al...who's hiding under his desk as he types this....:D:D
:D:D Your too funny, Al....
Growing up in my father's machine shop I used to get all the hand me down tools. I couldn't wait until one of my father's machinists would buy a new Starrett or Browne & Sharpe (Didn't have any good Japenese tools back then) . I would inherit an old , old tool but I thought it was great. When I was 14 years old it would take a month's pay for me to get a new one.:eek: Needless to say I never bought a new tool until I was well into my 20's.
Yes, I love a well made tools....but I still save my money for the good ones;)

Gary....Who put the baseball bat... back in the closet.:rolleyes:

[Al Willits]

""""""""
Gary....Who put the baseball bat... back in the closet.:rolleyes:
""""""

Whew!
I've already got one dent in my head, don't need another...:D


Ya good tools are nice and especially if you make your living with them, they may or may not offer more accuracy but they do offer better repeatiblity and for a longer time, old adage comes to mind, buy good tools once, buy cheap tools several times.

I used to give my measuring tools to my FIL who would take them to where he works, he'd check them to some tolerance I couldn't even come close to, but he did mention that many were off.
Starrett mics included.

So I still say, a square stanley is better than a out of square anything...:)
Well I do today, tomm my stanley sq may screw up and I'll be on a different bandwagon. ;)

Al...who's got way to much time on his hands today

[John Schreiber]

When your choice is between a Stanley and store brand instead of Stanley and Starrett or other high end, Stanley can be made accurate.

A few strokes of a narrow file and it is straight as I can test with a knife line after flipping it against a straight edge. If budget was not a concern, I'd own Starrett, but it's just not going to happen.

[Greg Cole]

This thread got me going on some tune-ups the last few nights... to the point where it's been like OCD. I will admit I have a Stanley 12" speed square... so I brought home a 12" Starrett. Comparison of the 2 leads the expensive one to be a whopping .003 better over 6" and about .006 over 12". Is that close enough...? For most things, surely but cumulative errors go from "close enough" to "what the hell happaned"...... DAMKHIT.
But the flip side of that OCD (besides some frustration doing the same things things over n over til I was "happy" with it) is having some spot on set ups, very gratifying. Jointer knife heights within .0005'ish (this was the OCD event for the most part), tables coplanar to where the Mitutoyo .001 dial indicator does not flinch. Same for the planer and TS... couple hours a night's well worth it. For example, my previous method of using a 6" machinist square for knife height was "close" but now I will say it's definately "close enough".:D
I was having satisfactory results before OCD'ing.... and I know I will have very satisfactory results now.
There is a certain peace of mind knowing something is "right" versus taking it for granted.... be it a tailed tool, measuring device or what have you. We all have a tendency to hurry into using things and then wondering what went south or where I could have done better.... Least I do err wanna say did, but I still find myself with a cart in front of a horse occasionally.

Thanks for the push as I know I needed it.

Greg

[Dan Barr]

Yup,

I wouldnt trust any tool until i test it out first. Even my own tools that I have set up get checked monthly or maybe bi-monthly depending on use. All it takes is one project to start going down the tubes to instill some OCD discipline into you. After you bone up something and it cost you a few pieces of wood ro some precious time, you wont have any problems checking tools out before you proceed.

v/r

Dan

[Jack Vines]

The Steel Square by Fred T. Hodgson, "A Practical Treatise On the Application of the Steel Square, Containing an Exhaustive Collection of Problems and Solutions." This is 471 pages of more than you ever wanted to know. Back when most carpenters had never been to school, much less learned decimals and fractions or long division, those charts on the framing square were their equivalent of a pocket calculator.

On a more practical note, an old carpenter who showed me a lot could adjust an off-true framing square with a couple of whacks with his hammer. As I remember, hitting it on the heel tightened and the inside opened, but as the saying goes, "anyone can hit it. experience is knowing where and how hard."

thnx, jack vines

[Dan Barr]

Now that is a book im going to HAVE to get. and ASAPly too.

nice to know, thanks ALOT!

v/r

dan

[Randall Davis]

If the tape varies unit to unit, (for example, the distance from 1' to 2' is not the same as the distance between the 2' and 3' marks) then it is truly worthless.[/QUOTE]


:confused::eek:

[Dan Barr]

Yup, definitely worthless.

But, stranger things have happened.

go figure.

dan

[Gary Keedwell]

When your choice is between a Stanley and store brand instead of Stanley and Starrett or other high end, Stanley can be made accurate.

A few strokes of a narrow file and it is straight as I can test with a knife line after flipping it against a straight edge. If budget was not a concern, I'd own Starrett, but it's just not going to happen.
John....OK...you piqued my interest..

What kind of strokes?

What kind of file?

Where on square do you file?

Not being "wise guy" ...Just makes me a little queezy at thought of a "file" on my measuring tools.
To be fair...I have heard of "stoning" or "burnishing" or "lapping";):)
Gary

[John Schreiber]

. . . What kind of strokes?

What kind of file?

Where on square do you file? . . .

I'm not sure what kind of strokes.

I've got a small file, about .05 x .25 x 3". I think it's designed for sharpening auger bits.

After I take the ruler out of the square, there are two areas where the ruler bears on the square and I take a bit off the bearing surface.

[Bob Feeser]

I am enjoying reading the comments. I too went with the Starret 6" combination square, and then caved in and bought the 12" as well. They are dead on. So how did I check them? This is something that I want to share with you. It is called a Bosch Digital Protractor (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-DWM40L-16-Inch-Digital-Protractor/dp/B00002255G/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1197862154&sr=8-2). That is a link to it at Amazon, which feartured my review 2nd from the top. (That link is just a passive page link, no affiliate links there)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31atsIg50mL._AA280_.jpg
The totally cool thing is this protractor measures angles in tenths of a degree. In the above pic, you can see 24.0 That .0 is the tenth. When you consider that a circle has 360 degrees, and this thing is accurate to measuring in a tenth of a degree, that is like 3600 dots in a circle, no matter how small the circle. It is not as practical to use as a Starret combination square, but it is the standard by which all other squares can be measured. I checked it against a true ninety. You'll have to read the Amazon review about how it automatically calculates the miter and bevel settings on your SCMS for cutting crown mldgs, and enables you to lay it flat on your saw, and make a cut. Since you take the spring angle of the crown mldg, which is the tapered back on the edge of the mldg that sits flush on the wall, hit a button, then take the angle of the wall, (90.4 for example) then hit a button once to lock in the wall measurement, then hit the button again which gives you a miter setting, hit it again, and it gives you the bevel setting, and wahlah, you are making perfect crown mldngs, even when the wall is not a perfect ninety. You just take the miter and bevel settings, and set your saw with it, lay the crown mldg flat on your saw, and make perfect cuts every time.
To tell you the truth I do not use it too often, but when I check my Makita Miter Saw, that is what I use, and I am telling you that compound miter, and bevel cuts come out perfect, not off by even 1/10th of a degree. I do have to keep an eye on the aluminum fence, and tweak that once in a while. That is fodder for another post.
I love the Starret combo squares. Carrying the 6" in my leather apron pouch, gives me the feeling like I have a little pet riding around in there. That is how fond of it I am. It is great for taking a depth measurement as well. No having to squench my head, under a project to get a measurement. I just extend the blade on the Starrett, wait until it hits the end, tighten the knob, and pull it out and see the perfect measurement. So my back loves it too.

[Gary Keedwell]

I'm not sure what kind of strokes.

I've got a small file, about .05 x .25 x 3". I think it's designed for sharpening auger bits.

After I take the ruler out of the square, there are two areas where the ruler bears on the square and I take a bit off the bearing surface.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:dtXkeNMqH2Zf4M:www.math.ku.edu/~evanvleck/yosemite.gif (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.math.ku.edu/~evanvleck/yosemite.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.math.ku.edu/~evanvleck/&h=512&w=640&sz=24&tbnid=dtXkeNMqH2Zf4M:&tbnh=110&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyosemite%2Bsam%26um%3D1&start=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=image&cd=1) Thanks John....hopefully my Starrett will never need that kind of attention:D

[Dan Barr]

I think you guys are referring to a set of locksmith's files. they are very small and thin. you can make and adjust keys with them.

I have a set and have made a few keys the hard way with them. I wanted to see if i could do it. (and i did!) I have found them useful for many other things as well. anywhere where you only want to minimally affect a metal part.

I can see them being used to true up a stanley square or something like that, but, i wouldnt touch a starrett with one. i'd probably not ahve the ability to make a "light pass" or the patience.

v/r

dan

[Greg Mann]

Bob,

I don't want to rain on your parade but a 10th of a degree over 6 inches is about .010". Most everyone commenting so far would think that is unacceptable.

There is nothing wrong with using the Bosch Protractor for cutting crown and such and I am sure it is everything you say it is for that, but using it to calibrate other squares is a bad idea, IMO. In fact, I think it would make more sense to use a Starret square (verifed beforehand, of course) to check the Bosch rather than the other way around.

[Gary Keedwell]

I brought all my squares and gages to work and had it inspected by the machine shop guys. ( I used to work in the machine shop ;)) I think if you go to a local machine shop they can set it up for you.
Gary