Adria, Pax, or Lynx ?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

For a DT saw?
12, 15, or 20 TPI?

Or would you try to restore an older rusty one from England like a Sorby if you could find one~?

Lynx is now Pax, or the other way round, isn't it?

I can get a
Lynx 8 * 20 for $70.00
Adria 8*20 is $130.00
Pax 8*20 is $95.00

Whadaya think?

[Jim Becker]

I bought the Adria and have been very pleased with it. I will not say it's nearly as easy to start as a Japanese style saw, but the end result is very accurate...especially in this novice's hands...

[Don C Peterson]

I've been quite pleased with the LN dovetail saw except now that I have used it for a while and have more reference points with other saws, the handle is a bit small... If I were to do it all over and had the time to be patient, I'd probably buy a used Disston or Jackson dovetail saw.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If I were to do it all over and had the time to be patient, I'd probably buy a used Dissiton or Jackson dovetail saw.

How would you deal with the pitting and irregularity along the sides that is almost universal in the old saws.
Wouldn't that be an issue when sharpening.

[mike holden]

I have the LN and the Gramercy DT saws. Like both, but the Gramercy is much easier to start.

76945

However, I would definitely consider a Wenzloff dovetail saw, based on my experience with the Wenzloff tenon saw - the large one on the left in the picture. That saw ROCKS!

Mike

[Larry Laffer]

There are a couple of good choices you have left out.

-Gramercy Tools 9" Dovetail Saw, ToolsforWorkingWood
-The Independence Dovetail Saw, Lie-Nielsen
-Wenzloff&Sons, available from Lee Valley/Veritas

[David Weaver]

There are plenty of Disston D-4 (I think that's the number) and similar jackson saws that have only patina and no rust.

I got a fantastic 8 inch disston dovetail saw from Walt Q for $15, and about 5 other disston saws for an average of $20 per. I checked the saw plate on them and they look like they're about 0.025" thick, for comparison purposes.

After buying over the internet, unless you're buying from Walt or someone else who has a reputation at stake, I would advise seeing first. Half of my saws are screwed up in ways that sellers didn't think was worth mentioning, even after asking direct questions about the issues that were wrong once I received them.

All of the dealers that I bought from were honest, though. I kept the screwed up ones to practice sharpening.

[Don C Peterson]

I have a growing collection of old saws and most of them (but not all) have some mild pitting. As long as the pitting isn't at the teeth then there shouldn't be any problem. Even if there is a little bit of pitting at the teeth the saw can be quite serviceable.

The real drawback (or benefit depending on your perspective) is that almost all of them require sharpening so be prepared to learn a new skill. There are a bunch of posts here that deal with that subject.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

As long as the pitting isn't at the teeth then there shouldn't be any problem. Even if there is a little bit of pitting at the teeth the saw can be quite serviceable.

Hmmm. Maybe a good honing on an aggressive diamond stone with the teeth flattened from set~? They are only about 8" or so.
I have used old scrapers with pitting and it's not nearly so nice as a clean surface


The real drawback (or benefit depending on your perspective) is that almost all of them require sharpening so be prepared to learn a new skill. There are a bunch of posts here that deal with that subject.


I recently took in a video from Chris Goshnour on that. It's a tad more involved than the way I used to sharpen carpenter's saws. File - file then set the teeth with an old screw driver & a small hammer, laying the saw flat on a soft board - and - - whack. Just the right touch sets the teeth the same (more or less) every time. OK for sawing 2*4s.
What Chris didn't address was whether one should take the set out of the teeth first.
I thought it was interesting that he de-burred the teeth after he set them. I though that was a tad counter intuitive but he insists that the process takes off any high points in the set so ~ ~ ~ ~ ~.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That is the same Wenzeloff fellow that used to post here last year isn't it?

Reading his site and looking at the "kits" I wondered if there isn't a good case for making my own from some brass and a sheet of spring steel. It is however, only a$125. for a rather nice saw.

[Phillip Pattee]

I have been reading posts here and doing the same research. With out owning any of these, I think there are several good choices. Thomas Flinn and company makes pax, lynx, and crown saws. The pax is their top of the line saw, and in the pax saws the 1776 is the flagship saw. Tools for working wood sells the 1776 15ppi dovetail saw (on clearance now), the gramercy 19ppi (their own design), and also sells the adria. Tools for Working Wood had the gramercy and the 1776 in stock -- so if you want one soon, you should consider these or a LN independence saw. The adria would go on back order. If you want a Wenzloff from the source, Lee Valley, or the Best Things, you will have to wait weeks for one (maybe as long as half a year).

All of my dovetails so far have been done with a router. I have cut lap joints with my dozuki z-saw and it works well. I don't like the noise and dust from the router and have started to get interested in good saws. What I got from a recent thread on "cheap dovetail saws" was that a comfortable handle and good steel is important; the teeth can be modified to suit the user and the task--either by a professional saw sharpener, or yourself if you learn to do your own sharpening. I think the consensus is that cutting dovetails is best done with a rip tooth. 20 tpi is going to cut slowly but leave a fine finish. 12 tpi is going to be an aggressive cut and likely much rougher. 15 to 16 tpi seems to be a good compromise and what is recommended by Mike Wenzloff on his website.

I have decided to try the used saw market first. By the way, there is a Sorby for sale on that auction site. If I get a new say, I am seriously considering a Wenzloff or the Gramercy as a first choice. My second tier is the Adria and the Pax 1776, followed closely by the LN independence. Since the cost is basically the same on these, I guess I really need to decide if I want new, then decide on Gramercy or Wenzloff.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

That is the same Wenzeloff fellow that used to post here last year isn't it?
Hah, same guy from what I hear...:)

I've just been busy. I have posted a couple times of late on the noisy side, though. We're incredibly behind from both retail sources to individual orders.

Still busy. Aside from work busyness, we've had some family and home issues--from exterior walls in our home letting in the rains, deaths and flooding. A couple family members lost homes and cars in the floods.

Those are the main reasons for not hanging anywhere of late. A lot of things have just needed to be set aside. I have read a couple good books in the travel here and there, though. As I haven't had much time for books in the past months, it was a bitersweet chance.

Take care, Mike

[Mark Stutz]

Cliff,
I have an Adria, Wenzloff, and Grammercy. They are all good saws, and I think you'd be happy with any of them. The Adria may be the hardest to learn to start, the Grammercy the easiest. The Grammercy, however, is ONLY for dovetails, as it is almost too small for most other joinery cuts.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Hah, same guy from what I hear.

Well hello there Sir saw smith. Is there a tradesman's moniker for a saw smith~? The Australian Government recognizes "saw maker" as a particularized skilled trade.
I'd have expected some old English expression but I can't find one.

I suppose it'd be in poor taste for me to ask you to comment on your competitors.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was looking at the sorby and the speer.

They are low right now. Right now. Be careful you don't get caught up in the bidding. I don't know whether I'll be bidding or not. It is after all only steel, wood, and brass. And you can't know a whole lot about the condition other than the pics.

Gramercy seems like an interesting saw. Tiny little thing just for DTs with all that sexy old school English style going on.

I may end up buying hand made American. Or then there is that appeal of buying a few blank pieces of hardened steel and seeing about making my own.

[Joel Moskowitz]

20 tpi is going to cut slowly but leave a fine finish.

Phillip,
If the 20tpi saw is filed correctly with a needle file it will cut slower than a 15tpi saw but not by much. Older dovetail saws like the one in the Seaton chest are nearly as fine 18tpi - 19ppt I think. The coarser saws are certainly easier to sharpen and for a saw that doubles as a tenon saw you can saw much thicker material with a coarser pitch saw but for overall speed of starting a dovetail cut and ease of use I think the finer tpi is better (but more specialized). In my view the popularity of the 15tpi saws in the 1825 onward period came about because most small saws made were for cutting trim and a 15tpi saw is much better for that and it's easier to convert a store bought 15tpic xcut saw to a 15tpi rip saw for dovetailing.

[Phillip Pattee]

I've been watching vintage dovetail saws go for some premium prices at the auctions. I can't see paying 75% of what I would pay for a high end saw, especially if I can't try it and return it. Anything I get off the 'bay like that has to be pretty much a bargain. I bid lots, but win little. I did, however, snag a nice 12" crosscut 14 tpi tenon saw from Cooke's that he has sharpened. I have not received it yet, but I am looking forward to it like an expecting father. Others talk of a slippery slope, but with planes and chisels I kind of feel like its a cliff...I hope I bounce!:D

[James Mittlefehldt]

In response to the original post I have the Pax dovetail saw filed rip that Lee Valley sells, $99. Canadian if memory serves, and I like it just fine. Not saying it is the best there os but it works and does what I ask it to, so make of that what you will.

Oddly enough decent old back saws are a tad thin on the ground around here where I am, lots of panel saws and such, but not a lot of tenon or dovetail saws. I managed to find two and they are great, but that is it.

[Steve Wargo]

I have a table of LN saws. I like them. I've used pretty much about every handsaw made. The saw I use most for cutting delicate dovetails is a $40 Japanese saw from Rockler. Very fine kerf. Tracks and starts very well. I used to own a Pax and my mother told me if I couldn't say anything nice not to say anything at all. So that's all I'll say about that. Welcome back Mike.

[Phillip Pattee]

Thanks Joel!

Cliff, You have to love this about Sawmill Creek. You ask a question about dovetail saws and you have arguably the world's two finest saw makers, Joel Moskowitz and Mike Wenzloff, answer your post. I will humbly remain silent, and just listen to their advice on what makes a better dovetail saw. They know!

[Larry Laffer]

Don't overlook the Grammercy dovetail saw KIT.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...and just listen to their advice on what makes a better dovetail saw. They know!
Without trying to be flip, you know as well.

What makes a better dovetail saw? You do. Meaning it is simply using a saw that makes it a better saw (cause it isn't really the saw). Whether vintage or one of the main new saws on the market, it really doesn't matter. Oh, a vintage saw (like any vintage tool) may have issues that need dealt with, but otherwise they all can work fine.

There are attributes which can help a saw work efficiently. However, most any English-pattern DT saw (all the main new ones on the market and most good vintage ones) can be made to work like the others simply because they share those attributes. The rest is personal preference.

Thanks for the welcome back, Steve...

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

These are Saws I can get for the 65 - 40 dollar range from an antique dealer.

76968

76969

76970

76971

The pitting in some is indicative of that which concerns me in old saws.

[Don C Peterson]

Not that you can tell all that much from a picture, but that Hickman saw looks to be in fine shape. A bit of discoloration, but it doesn't look like there's any pitting.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, that last one is a very pretty tool...

[Don C Peterson]

Without trying to be flip, you know as well.

What makes a better dovetail saw? You do. Meaning it is simply using a saw that makes it a better saw (cause it isn't really the saw). Whether vintage or one of the main new saws on the market, it really doesn't matter. Oh, a vintage saw (like any vintage tool) may have issues that need dealt with, but otherwise they all can work fine.

There are attributes which can help a saw work efficiently. However, most any English-pattern DT saw (all the main new ones on the market and most good vintage ones) can be made to work like the others simply because they share those attributes. The rest is personal preference.

Thanks for the welcome back, Steve...

Take care, Mike

Good points Mike, once you have a competently designed and built saw that is properly sharpened and set, the result is totally up to the user.

But you have to use what works for you, I know others really like the Japanese saws, but I spent over a year (on and off) trying to cut decent dovetails with any number of them. I was never successful.

After making the switch to western style saws (my first being the LN DT) my results improved dramatically and immediately. I can now cut dovetails routinely without any sort of paring. Just for kicks I went back and tried several of my Japanese saws and got the same old (bad) results, then I went and tried my old Atkins 12pt XCut saw. While I wouldn't want to cut dovetails that way, it actually turned out a passable result.

At some point I'd like to get my hands on one of your panel saws, but I'll have to save up for that one...

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I rather like the Spears and the Hickman.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

And Garret Wade has a sale on Paragon saws:
http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?itemID=101962&itemType=PRODUCT

Not too bad however, I don't know anything about 'em.

[Matt Wilson]

how about a Medallion?

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/mwilson_24/ed_f.jpg


Not sure what Ed charges now, but I picked up mine for $85 CDN in the summer. Of course after that I had to order 2 of his tennon saws... Be careful, they tend to multiply.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Pretty saws those Medallions.

[Joel Goodman]

Has anyone tried the new LN with the "graduated" (if that's the word) teeth. They vary from a finer pitch for starting to a courser for speed.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Joel, Mark Stutz and I were up at LN Toolworks last Friday and we both used the graduated tooth saw. It is easier to start than the regular standard toothing. Having said that, I have had an LN dovetail saw for about 10 years and have never had any difficulty starting mine with its standard configuration. Technique and pratice are what really make the difference in sawing with one minor caveat. We all have different styles and different levels of coordination. I can not for the life of me make any of the gents saws saw a straight line whether its one of my old German cheapies or the LN gents saw which I allowed to frustrate me again last Friday.

[Hank Knight]

Hah, same guy from what I hear...:)
Still busy. Aside from work busyness, we've had some family and home issues--from exterior walls in our home letting in the rains, deaths and flooding. A couple family members lost homes and cars in the floods.

Jeez, Mike, I knew you guys were having a rough time out your way, but I didn't realize how rough. I'm sorry to hear of your family's misfortunes, and hope that things are on the mend. We miss you here. I was glad to see your post.

Hank

[Mark Stutz]

I'll echo Dave's comments (stealth gloat about the trip to LN...but it didn't really happen since neither of us had a camera:(). It is easier to start, but not by a lot. Definitely easier than the Adria when I first picked that up, but how much is the saw, and how much is my improved technique over time, I can't tell. Didn't use it enough to know if it cuts any faster.

Got a chance to use all their DT saws. My honest assessment of all the commercially available modern saws, it that they are all very close...kinda like what color car do you want. Almost to the point of "What does it look like" as opposed to "How does it cut".

My .02.:D

Mark

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

A while ago I picked up one of those mass produced Irwin saws at a borg. the one that flips so you can cut on the push or the pull.

I thought it'd be useful - it was cheap enough. Turns out is isn't useful at all It won't start and when it cuts it makes a mess of whatever you are cutting.
I have considered using it as a martial arts weapon 'cause it isn't any good for wood work. Prolly just cut myself.

Meanwhile Garret Wade has a sale and their 18 TPI English made DT saw is cheap. If it were a 20 I might go for it. Any one use Garret Wade Saws?

[Matt Meiser]

I just went through the same decision making process. A Gramercy is on its way to me right now. Whenever I read a review, the Wenzloff and Gramercy were considered to be equal or a very slight advantage was given to the Gramercy. The Adria and then the LN were just behind. I narrowed my field to the Gramercy and the Wenzloff, and then the deciding factor was the wait time on the Wenzloff. I'm just not that patient.:o If they had been in stock at Lee Valley, I probably would have gotten the Wenzloff just because I think it was $10 less expensive and that would have been the only thing that really differentiated them.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I just went through the same decision making process. A Gramercy is on its way to me right now.

I too am leaning toward a Gramercy. I'm not a true neander by any measure but I am weary of the Dovetail Jig routine. I have both the Leigh D4 and the PC Omni jig and I don't really enjoy the process of making DTs on the jigs at all. I enjoy it so very little that I troubled myself to engineer and build my own contraption for making DT Keys on my slider using the Router table off the rear of my saw. I like my shop made device better than the Leigh or the PC. But still - - - I think I want to become adept at doing it the old fashioned way.


wait time on the Wenzloff. I'm just not that patient.

Indeed. I might prefer to buy from a little guy (especially one whom I can address directly here on the creek) but time and patience are issues.
I guess that's more proof that I ain't no true neander.

So:
$15 for a set.
$11 or so for a file
$139 for a little tiny saw
Total $165 before tax or shipping.

Oh well, I'll just have to sell one of my Jigs.

[Matt Meiser]

I sold my Leigh jig a while back and had intended to buy one of the through dovetail templates when I needed to do dovetails again. The more I thought about it, the more I decided that as infrequently as I do dovetails, I might as well just learn to do them by hand, then I don't have to worry about fixed spacing on the jig. I'll never build a kitchen full of dovetailed drawers--I'd do them some other way if I did a project like that or any other non-heirloom type project. I used the pocket hole technique Mark Singer has demonstrated for my bathroom cabinets. But for a dresser or table I want to be able to do dovetails.

[Mark Stutz]

Cliff,
Unlike many modern saws, the Grammercy come hand filed and ready to go, so you wan't need the file and set right away.

mark

[Steven Herbin]

Hi-

I bought the Gramercy yesterday. Pretty much the same decision making process. It's a terrible character flaw to be so impatient <BG>. I visited them a few weeks ago and made some cuts using a sample saw they had on display. It's really a beautiful saw from an aesthetic view and it (in my very inexperienced estimation) cuts a bit easier than the LN.

They do have a backlog on orders of the saw, but I was told that it is cleared up and they should ship mine by the end of the week. We'll see.

Just a beginner at making dovetails. I have the Hartville jig for half blind and box joints and the Katie Jig for through dovetails. I will use those for "mass production" stuff and use hand made for my own stuff.

After attending a class at Kelly Mehler's school in October, he kinda put the bug in my ear about using a better balance of hand tools and machine tools in my new obsession.

--Steve.

[Matt Meiser]

The white truck just came....

:D:D:D:D

[Dave Anderson NH]

Since I'm a fairly confirmed Neanderthal I'm sure the following comments won't exactly put most of you folks into shock.

It always surprises me that folks are willing to spend $200 to $400 dollars on a dovetail jig, an additonal $150 to $250 on a electric router, and an additional $50 to $200 on carbide bits just to cut a few sets of dovetails for drawers. Rarely do any of us make more than 3-4 doors at a time and quite often it is just a single drawer for a project like a table. If you have to take your jig out, do the setup and test pieces, and then cut the actual joints, you probably have exceeded the time it would take to hand cut the dovetails for a single drawer. Compare the cost of a minimum of $400 and more likely in the $5-600 range for machine cut dovetail gear with that of buying the very best and most expensive of everything you need to cut dovetails by hand. Unless you buy a fancy hand made Japanese saw made by one of the icons of eastern style woodworking, you would be hard pressed to spend more than $250 for a saw, dovetail marker, marking knife, marking gage, and even a coping saw. This presupposes that you already have some chisels. More likely you would spend $125-40 for the saw, $15-20 for the marker, $30-40 for the marking gage, and $23-45 for the marking knive. The marking gage and the marking knive would also be readily usable for other tasks.

Now for the intangibles. Do you want to have an expensive screaming dust spewing tailed devil in your hands which limits you in the size and spacing of your dovetails and which costs a small fortune? Wouldn't it be nicer to work quietly with the radio playing in the background, no limit on the size and spacing of your joints, and a considerable number of dollars left over to purchase top quality wood?

Dissenting opinions need not apply.:D:p

[Jim Becker]

Do you want to have an expensive screaming dust spewing tailed devil in your hands...

I would think that having children in the shop are not going to help with the process... :D

[Matt Meiser]

Great, now I need to clean my monitor. Thanks Jim. :D

[Don C Peterson]

I would think that having children in the shop are not going to help with the process... :D

The money issue that Dave so aptly illustrated is a motivating factor, but this is the real reason I've gone mostly neander. My kids love to play down in the basement when I'm down there working. Every once in a while one (or several) will ask to be able to do something and I can show them the rudiments of sawing or using chisels. As long as I don't fire up the table saw or planer, I don't have to chase them out of the shop.

[Steven Herbin]

The router cost me $100 (PC 890 refurb), the jig was $149. Once set up, it can be welded in place. So the cost difference is not that great. The aesthetics of the hand made vs. machine made are subjective. The chips flying all over are an issue, but manageable.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

It always surprises me that folks are willing to spend $200 to $400 dollars on a dovetail jig, an additonal $150 to $250 on a electric router, and an additional $50 to $200 on carbide bits just to cut a few sets of dovetails for drawers.

I rather suspect it is mostly due to insecurity and myth. People have got themselves in to a place where they don't imagine the possibilities and don't think they can do a thing.


Compare the cost [...]$5-600 range for machine cut dovetail gear with [...] $250 for a saw, dovetail marker, marking knife, marking gage, and even a coping saw. And another $ 30 or so for a saw swt and files
This presupposes that you already have some chisels. the ones at the borg really will do nicely [...]


[...]intangibles. Do you want to have an expensive screaming dust spewing tailed devil in your hands which limits you in the size and spacing of your dovetails and which costs a small fortune?

That seems pretty tangible to me. My ears are ringing just thinking about it.


Wouldn't it be nicer to work quietly with the radio playing in the background, no limit on the size and spacing of your joints, and a considerable number of dollars left over to purchase top quality wood?

Yes it would. ERGO: I'm looking to change my wicked ways.

[Dave Anderson NH]

My post about hand cutting vs machine made was partially in fun, but only partially. In addition to the benefits I already mentioned for hand cutting, there is that one others mentioned of safety. This applies not just to your safety and that of anyone else in the shop, it is just as important to the safety of the wood you're working with. The slower speed of a saw means you can stop easily if you start to go off line. The router cuts so quickly that it is easy to ruin a workpiece in a split second.

Cutting dovetails by hand is not rocket science or any mysterious arcane art form. Anyone can do it with practice. You've heard a similar line many times before in other places and while it is a bit of a joke, it is the ultimate truth for any manual skill whether in sports, life gererally, or in woodworking. The way to good dovetails is practice, practice, practice. Some will pick it up really quickly, most of us did not or will not.

[Mark Singer]

I sold my Leigh jig a while back and had intended to buy one of the through dovetail templates when I needed to do dovetails again. The more I thought about it, the more I decided that as infrequently as I do dovetails, I might as well just learn to do them by hand, then I don't have to worry about fixed spacing on the jig. I'll never build a kitchen full of dovetailed drawers--I'd do them some other way if I did a project like that or any other non-heirloom type project. I used the pocket hole technique Mark Singer has demonstrated for my bathroom cabinets. But for a dresser or table I want to be able to do dovetails.

For cabinets pocketholes are fine. For furniture I use hand cut dovetails,
Fun and realy add to the quality!