News from Lee Valley

[Ray Scheller]

I just noticed my thread regarding the difficulies Lee Valley was experiencing was closed. I can only guess it was closed by the moderator becuase we started to infringe on politics and lost focus on the real issue. I'm unhappy that this went down a dark path. :mad:I'm hoping to restart the thread and lets stick to the topic the people who took this down that path know who they are so lets start this again and focus on the Lee Valley situation.

Here's the original post regarding the hardship LV was having in these trying economic times

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=19c09d4f-7f83-468c-8bc3-f2d51dd722a7&k=92011 (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=19c09d4f-7f83-468c-8bc3-f2d51dd722a7&k=92011)

Ray

[Chuck Wintle]

Ray,
While its sad that Lee Valley is having trouble cross border politics and strong opinions will always screw up a thread such as this. :mad:

[Jim Becker]

Yes the thread was closed to posting for moderation my one of the moderators and moved until that happens because of abusive language as well as political discussion which is not allowed at SMC. Please note that the rules in the TOS will be enforced. Please also note that discussion of moderation is also prohibited.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Brian Weick]

went to far with the topic, - the moderators don't want things to get to political- I understand- , but as long as it's civil I don't see any problem ~ but then agian- it's not place to say so -oh well.:)
Brian

[Ray Scheller]

I noticed thee moderator moved this thread to moderation so look for it there. I however would like to see us stick to the topic and not personal politics.

Ray

[Ray Scheller]

Jim being relatively new to the site how do I get it started again or am I flogging a dead horse?

Ray

[Gary Keedwell]

Actually, I thought the thread was civil until towards the end. I think if we didn't use that "t" word it would be alright. It is the "t" word that got people mad in this country to begin with. ( Boston "tea" Party) So if we all make a promise not to mention it....we should be good.:)
OK???????
Gary

[Brian Weick]

Alrighty then~:D
Brian

[Gary Keedwell]

I really think that if Lee Valley was just some so-so company they would have a rough go, but I'm thinking that they have such a great reputation and obviously they are well managed so I feel they will come out OK.
When the going gets tough, the tough get going........
Gary

[Greg Cole]

If LV is going to stop manufacturing in Canada, now might be a good time to buy any of LV manufactured items..... last of the North American made Veritas might be worth hanging onto or just having for the sake of having. Many of us have a pension for things made from certain locales.
I'd hate to see anything other than the high quality I've become accustomed to after buying some of the LV-Veritas neander offerings.... they're not overly expensive and are truly good tools that will be serviceable for lifetimes.

Greg

[Brad McDonald]

I didn't see the original thread so this may really be old news but... Rob Lee has been posting on every WW forum where this story has been posted. I don't know if I am allowed to link but here is the synopsis: Apparently the sky is not falling and LV is not in dire straits.

If you haven't seen Rob's comments you should look for them.

[Danny Thompson]

I, too, have a penchant for LV products and plan to spend a large portion of my pension on them.

[Gary Keedwell]

I didn't see the original thread so this may really be old news but... Rob Lee has been posting on every WW forum where this story has been posted. I don't know if I am allowed to link but here is the synopsis: Apparently the sky is not falling and LV is not in dire straits.

If you haven't seen Rob's comments you should look for them.
I'm glad to hear that, Brad. Lee Valley is one of the good ones and I'm rooting for them.:)
Gary

[Bill Lantry]

I've always had a positive impression of that particular company, and have ordered things from them in the past. But after seeing some of the comments in that article by the gentleman who is, I presume, the owner, my impression has taken a somewhat less than positive turn. In or out of context, those comments could strike one as unseemly in the extreme. I'm not saying I'll never order from them again, but any joy I once derived from clicking the 'order now' button will be mitigated... :(

Thanks,

Bill

[Chris Zenda]

I've always had a positive impression of that particular company, and have ordered things from them in the past. But after seeing some of the comments in that article by the gentleman who is, I presume, the owner, my impression has taken a somewhat less than positive turn. In or out of context, those comments could strike one as unseemly in the extreme. I'm not saying I'll never order from them again, but any joy I once derived from clicking the 'order now' button will be mitigated... :(

Thanks,

Bill

After reading that article I'm more inclined to do business with Lee Valley . The tools are of such high quality that I'm more than happy to pay extra for them.

[Gary Keedwell]

I just read most of the article and it said that the holiday will cost them $100,000. It also said that there are 900 employees so to correct a previous statement, that comes to $111.00 not $400.00 an employee.:) Also I think they interviewed him while he was still licking his wounds about paying for another holiday, which is to an employer another of the "T" words for him. He sounds very bitter about the new law that passed.
Gary

[Dan Lee]

I just read most of the article and it said that the holiday will cost them $100,000. It also said that there are 900 employees so to correct a previous statement, that comes to $111.00 not $400.00 an employee.:) Also I think they interviewed him while he was still licking his wounds about paying for another holiday, which is to an employer another of the "T" words for him. He sounds very bitter about the new law that passed.
Gary

Actually I think the new holiday applied to only the 500 Ontario employees.
Interesting never heard of Statutory holidays

[Glen Gunderson]

Actually I think the new holiday applied to only the 500 Ontario employees.
Interesting never heard of Statutory holidays

Statutory holidays is a term used in Canada to refer to legislated holidays on which an employee must either be given a day off with pay or be paid 1.5X their normal wage if they have to work on that day.

Federally, Canada has no holidays between New Years Day and Good Friday, so several provinces have created holidays on the third Monday in February to coincide with President's Day in the United States. The holiday that Mr. Lee is referring to is an example of this.

Also, you are correct, that because it is a provincial holiday, it would only apply to the employees in Ontario. However, since this holiday already exists in some provinces, the Lee Valley employees at their Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg stores are already being paid for this.

[John Schreiber]

Economically, the fall of the dollar has a huge impact on the economies of the Untied States and of the rest of the world.

Lee Valley is a top quality company with top quality products. I hope that most of my Christmas gifts will come from there this year and for many years to come.

[Eddie Darby]

Didn't someone originally post that Leonard Lee was misquoted by the reporter!
I've seen this happen so many times that I wonder why the press do it?

[Gary Keedwell]

Didn't someone originally post that Leonard Lee was misquoted by the reporter!
I've seen this happen so many times that I wonder why the press do it?
The press just want sensationalism or anything bad that sells. Truth does not matter, just like Dan Rather.:o

Gary

[Walt Caza]

Perhaps Eddie is onto something? I would like to think maybe
Leonard Lee was misquoted. Seeing how some felt turned off by the
comments attributed to him, I could see that being more likely...
afterall, such a sharp company seems less likely to make such a potential
gaff in the press. They work too hard to sweeten us, why sour anyone?

When Lee Valley sent me a small refund check, due to a price drop on
a shoulder plane blade I bought months earlier, I was blown away.
Consider how shrewd that is... I ran around telling anyone who would listen.
I joked to a friend, that even if LV had just made it up for
good word-of-mouth advertising, it was still a brilliant move and well
worth it for their business.
Heck, I was already a customer for life, but our discretionary funds
are less safe with such a cunning ww store lurking!

Can anyone reference a misquote?
Walt
:)

[Chris Padilla]

As I stated in the previous thread, Lee Valley has very clever designs and provide one full value on their money. I would hope some of that cleverness would help propel them through any tough times they may face. They have to know they have a strong following. I figure worse case, they have to raise prices and even a 10-20% wouldn't bother me much. It might even be cool if they stated the price increase and made it a temporary one. I dunno...I just made an X-mas pruchase for the folks through them...it is on its way! :)

[Dan Lee]

Walt
I had the same small refund thing happen a few years ago and became a customer for life.
Robin Lee posted on WoodCentral (handtools forum) and elsewhere that a quote his dad made was taken out of context.

[Bill Wyko]

One thing to be considered about economy is the fact that the world economy is strong which will increase U.S. export which in turn can create a stronger U.S. dollar and increases employment opportunity. I feel the press has used the housing market as a crutch to give the impression that things are worse than they really are. I do wish the best for any business in these times for I feel this will pass soon. Especially a company that seems to offer quality service like this one.IMHO

[Gary Keedwell]

One thing to be considered about economy is the fact that the world economy is strong which will increase U.S. export which in turn can create a stronger U.S. dollar and increases employment opportunity. I feel the press has used the housing market as a crutch to give the impression that things are worse than they really are. I do wish the best for any business in these times for I feel this will pass soon. Especially a company that seems to offer quality service like this one.IMHO
Funny you mention that because the guy on my radio is talking about the "gloom and doom" media. Perception is what drives the economy and the stock market. When people get the daily dose of how "bad" things are, they start to believe it and it gets the snowball effect. Sometimes I wonder about the media's agenda...but that is best left OFF this topic and forum.
Gary

[Alex Carrera]

I too am more inclined to purchase their products due to that article. He's only pointing out how it's become more difficult for him to maintain the jobs he has created, something he seems to strive very hard to do.

[Montgomery Scott]

Much ado about nothing. Here's Rob Lee's post from woodnet.

Hi -

The following was printed in the Ottawa Citizen this morning. I should mention that while most of the facts are correct in the article - not all of them pertain specifically to LV or Veritas. The reporter feels terrible about how the context was misconstrued.

On page 2 of today's Citizen there is an Editor's Note that reads as follows:

"In a story on page C1 Monday about how the high Canadian dollar is affecting Lee Valley Tools, Leonard Lee said, "I think we'll make it through next year but we can't continue forever." Mr. Lee was referring to the expectation that the company would continue its 30-year history of not laying off any employees, not the possibility that the company would get out of manufacturing."

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Buy all the Veritas and LV stuff you can get your hands on....ASAP! :D

But don't do it on the basis of that article - we're still running two shifts, have a backlog of new product in development, and set an order volume record two days ago...

The only thing that travels faster than bad news, is bad news that's not true...

We're doing just fine, just paid out profit share to staff on Friday (every person gets an equal share, based on 25% of pre-tax).

All in all - business as normal....

Cheers -

Rob Lee

[Rob Lee]

I just read most of the article and it said that the holiday will cost them $100,000. It also said that there are 900 employees so to correct a previous statement, that comes to $111.00 not $400.00 an employee.:) Also I think they interviewed him while he was still licking his wounds about paying for another holiday, which is to an employer another of the "T" words for him. He sounds very bitter about the new law that passed.
Gary


Hi Gary -

Yes - we're a tad bitter at paying for another lost day. At LV we already have 52 "Family days" because we don't work on Sundays. The holiday our provincial Gov't just added was not needed, enshrines inefficiency in the economy, and ultimately is a job killer. I'd rather they raised taxes...

To add insult to injury - we already pay "payroll taxes" (including the payroll on stat holidays) .... keep in mind, that's a flat tax every employer pays whether they have profit or not.

Kinda like paying an income tax whether of not you have income...

Cheers -

Rob
(hoping to pay LOTS of tax next year....)

[Jim Becker]

(hoping to pay LOTS of tax next year....)

You're quite welcome to some of mine... :D

Seriously, Rob...thanks for reiterating for the SMC community that the article was, um...less than accurate... ;)

[Gary Keedwell]

Rob....That is great news and thanks for responding. By the way...are you now accepting job applications ? :confused::D
Gary

[Chris Barnett]

Curious, but have never bought tools from Lee Valley. What would you [:D] oldtimers say were their keepers, for your grandsons? My grandsons...if it doesn't have a switch, its no good. Suppose someone elses grandsons will get my old hand-me-downs...draw knifes, brace made of wood, spoke shaves and draw knives, full sets of augers, mortise planes, chisels, could go on and on...the old stuff.
Getting into some woodworking while there is still time and the dullness has not yet started.....well...DW might argue :D.

[Stan Smith]

Hi -

Buy all the Veritas and LV stuff you can get your hands on....ASAP! :D

But don't do it on the basis of that article - we're still running two shifts, have a backlog of new product in development, and set an order volume record two days ago...

The only thing that travels faster than bad news, is bad news that's not true...

We're doing just fine, just paid out profit share to staff on Friday (every person gets an equal share, based on 25% of pre-tax).

All in all - business as normal....


Cheers -

Rob Lee

We are sooooooo happy to hear that info. Thanks for getting the record staight.

As you are probably aware, a number of Eurpoean countries have even more holidays and vacation days than we do here in the States. Canada may be affected by this trend sooner than we are. I'm not understanding why Canada made a holiday in February just because we have a Presidents' day here though.

[Gary Keedwell]

We are sooooooo happy to hear that info. Thanks for getting the record staight.

As you are probably aware, a number of Eurpoean countries have even more holidays and vacation days than we do here in the States. Canada may be affected by this trend sooner than we are. I'm not understanding why Canada made a holiday in February just because we have a Presidents' day here though.
European countries are now feeling the effects of their very liberal "benefits" especially France. With a 32 hour work week and many weeks of vacations and holidays and topped off with the high taxes, it is very hard for them to compete in the world market. Also, their unemployment rate is getting way out of hand. Things are not so rosy in their "worker's paradise":(
Gary

[Thom Sturgill]

Since I'm just (re)starting my tool collection and have found the few LV tools I have purchased (so far) to be fine tools, I'm very glad the rumor was wrong. I have my eyes on some of their chisels. ;) Keep up the fine work Rob!

[Jay Kilpatrick]

but I could of sworn I read that Rob Lee wants to pay everyone's taxes next year:eek::D!

~Jay...Hoping to get those 2 cute little rosewood planes for Christmas and display them at work so I can pretend I'm a woodworker at lunchtime:rolleyes::o

[Dennis Peacock]

Hi -

Buy all the Veritas and LV stuff you can get your hands on....ASAP! :D

But don't do it on the basis of that article - we're still running two shifts, have a backlog of new product in development, and set an order volume record two days ago...

The only thing that travels faster than bad news, is bad news that's not true...

We're doing just fine, just paid out profit share to staff on Friday (every person gets an equal share, based on 25% of pre-tax).

All in all - business as normal....

Cheers -

Rob Lee


Most excellent news!!!!! Thank you Rob.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

We are sooooooo happy to hear that info. Thanks for getting the record staight.

As you are probably aware, a number of Eurpoean countries have even more holidays and vacation days than we do here in the States. Canada may be affected by this trend sooner than we are. I'm not understanding why Canada made a holiday in February just because we have a Presidents' day here though.

Well when the sun doesn't come up till 7:30 and it gets dark by 4:30 and the temperature out side is colder that the hair on a Polar Bear's bum. It gets depressing and there is a long haul from New Years Day to Easter we in The Great White North need a mental health day. Yea it's costly but so is a depressed work force. Fortunately I've only 10 employees. The other half of our cost is the employer kicks in 4% vacation pay based on earnings. So when you take your two weeks or what ever you get paid.

Don't think the 4% vacation pay is something the US uses.

Greg

[Glen Gunderson]

As you are probably aware, a number of Eurpoean countries have even more holidays and vacation days than we do here in the States. Canada may be affected by this trend sooner than we are. I'm not understanding why Canada made a holiday in February just because we have a Presidents' day here though.

I believe it's because there's a fairly large gap between the first two holidays of the year (New Year's Day on Jan. 1st and Good Friday in late March). In the United States there are three holidays by the middle of February, whereas in Canada, there is only one, and that's New Year's Day on January 1st. I assume that coinciding it with President's Day was merely for convenience. Basically various provincial governments wanted to put a holiday in February, so they arbitrarily came up with "Family Day." I can certainly understand why a business owner wouldn't like it, but I can also understand the appeal of a holiday in what is probably my least favorite month.

At present, there are 9 nationally recognized holidays (compared to 10 in the United States), so it's not as if Canada has a ridiculous amount of holidays already.

[Grant Wilkinson]

Living, as I do, just down the street from Veritas and the HQ LV store, I'm there enough to consider putting up a hammock. I could not believe that the company was in any real trouble, given the quality of their products, their incredible customer service and the shear stubbornness of the founder and Rob.

I realize that I need to tread very carefully here, but I'll try to say that, as someone who has many friends in retail, it is somewhat irritating when any level of government makes points on granting workers holidays when it is not the government picking up the tab.

[Gary Keedwell]

Living, as I do, just down the street from Veritas and the HQ LV store, I'm there enough to consider putting up a hammock. I could not believe that the company was in any real trouble, given the quality of their products, their incredible customer service and the shear stubbornness of the founder and Rob.

I realize that I need to tread very carefully here, but I'll try to say that, as someone who has many friends in retail, it is somewhat irritating when any level of government makes points on granting workers holidays when it is not the government picking up the tab.
Come on now Grant, don't be mean.....all they want to do is get re-elected:o:D
Gary

[Gary Herrmann]

Kinda like paying an income tax whether of not you have income...

Cheers -

Rob
(hoping to pay LOTS of tax next year....)

Mrs. Santa has asked me to update my wish list, so I'll do my part. ;)

[Grant Wilkinson]

You're right, Gary. I lost my head there for a moment and didn't know what I was saying. ;)

[Stan Smith]

Well when the sun doesn't come up till 7:30 and it gets dark by 4:30 and the temperature out side is colder that the hair on a Polar Bear's bum. It gets depressing and there is a long haul from New Years Day to Easter we in The Great White North need a mental health day. Yea it's costly but so is a depressed work force. Fortunately I've only 10 employees. The other half of our cost is the employer kicks in 4% vacation pay based on earnings. So when you take your two weeks or what ever you get paid.

Don't think the 4% vacation pay is something the US uses.

Greg

Hmmmm....I hope folks didn't think that I was being critical of Canada for making a holiday. It was just that is coincided with one of the States' holidays. Also, I guess it is a long time between holidays as compared to the States. I remember when we didn't have any holidays in February though. I don't have a business now and I'm not against holidays having enjoyed them myself before retiring.

FYI to my Canadian friends, there are no U.S. government vacation policies except for government employees. Private employers are not required to provide vacations except for some legally required ones such as family leave, sick leave, military leave, pregnancy, etc.. However, most employers do provide paid vacation as part of fringe benefits to be competitive in hiring. I'm sure there are some exceptions to what I've said also.

[Jim Dunn]

Count me in on the people glad that Mr. Lee keeps us up to date. Not much of a hand tool fellow myself, but that said, I did buy a set of chisels from the Valley this past spring. Couldn't be happier with the quality or the price. Hope to buy more from them in the not to distant future.

[Chris Barnett]

Well, shucks, guess no recommendations on tools to buy from this place :(. Spent over $8k on tools in the last 6 months but not a penny at Lee Valley. Want hand tools now, but maybe folks would just rather complain about that which cannot be changed versus that which can; hope that improves their balance sheet.

[Gary Keedwell]

Well, shucks, guess no recommendations on tools to buy from this place :(. Spent over $8k on tools in the last 6 months but not a penny at Lee Valley. Want hand tools now, but maybe folks would just rather complain about that which cannot be changed versus that which can; hope that improves their balance sheet.
Lee Valley has a fantastic catolog. Don't know what you mean about balance sheets but Saw Mill Creek is always trying to improve it's balance sheet.;):rolleyes:

Gary K.
Contributor

[Chris Barnett]

Yes, I have the catalog now, but there are tools, then there are tools.

[Gary Keedwell]

Yes, I have the catalog now, but there are tools, then there are tools.

Clarification needed. Plenty of nice things plus accessories.:confused:
Gary

Contributor 2008

[Jim McFarland]

Well, shucks, guess no recommendations on tools to buy from this place :(. Spent over $8k on tools in the last 6 months but not a penny at Lee Valley. Want hand tools now, but maybe folks would just rather complain about that which cannot be changed versus that which can; hope that improves their balance sheet.

I'm sure the folks on the Neanderthal forum could give you better recommendations re hand tools.

I'm not a big hand tool fan but still have spent a chunk of change with Lee Valley. Most all of the hand woodworking tools I have came from there: apron plane, edge plane, pull saws, flush trim saw, chisels and scrapers. I'm also a big fan of their router bits (2nd only to Holbren/Whiteside IMO) and bought my Leigh jig from them. Other items too numerous to mention range all the way from digital calipers to brass shim stock.

To top it all, IME, they provide outstanding customer service.

[Glenn Clabo]

Just a few I would suggest...
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49142&cat=1,50230&ap=1
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48431&cat=1,41182,48945
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46037&cat=1,43326
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46226&cat=1,46168,46178&ap=1

[Dan Lautner]

If Lee Valley was really going out of business I would dump a few grand into tools before they did. They sell some top notch tools at good prices. I have noticed that its not just americans and Canadiens buying their stuff. Lee Valley is a first rate class act. I can hardly wait for my Xmas package to get here.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

If Lee Valley was really going out of business I would dump a few grand into tools before they did.

I am reiterating that Lee Valley is NOT "going out of business". They may have consider moving more of their manufacturing out of Canada, but that seems to be the only thing on the table right now based on Rob Lee's comments. They, like every other entity that manufactures product, have to evaluate what makes the best sense for their business in this respect. A poorly written article that apparently takes things out of context is generating a lot of doom and gloom that just doesn't exist.

[Gary Keedwell]

In Rob Lee's post he mentioned that they are indeed working 2 shifts and setting sales records and are giving out bonuses to staff. He seems very satisfied and said it is business as normal. Doesn't sound like outsourcing to me.:)
Gary

[Chuck Burns]

I'm a fan of supporting LV and Lie-Nielsen. I want them both to stay in business and continue to manufacture in North America. If it means I have to pay a bit more that's OK with me. I just bought a LN 4 1/2 Smoother; great plane and I was happy to pay the price. And just like LV great customer service.

[Ted Baca]

I agree with Chuck, I would pay more to not have anymore Chinese made tools. What is going on in this country? Are we going to lose all the good manufacturers to the orient? I have always love my LV tools and would have more, rather intend to have more as budget permits.

[Chris Barnett]

I must wait until next summer to maybe find some old tools at yard sales but if there is a chance that the good stuff will be replaced by who knows what from over the pond, need to get good tool steel now. I expect they have very good and average chisels, saws, augers and whatever. But which brand since they have several? Is price a good guide? I doubt we will see the good stuff on How Its Made :).

[John Gornall]

"How it's Made" - like Lee Valley Tools another Canadian Product.

Without television shows like this and other similar shows I would not watch TV. There's so much potential for education and quality entertainment in TV but I despair when I turn it on.

Click, back to my shop.

[Andrew Williams]

I quit watching TV years ago and have been much happier since.

[Eddie Darby]

I see that the Canadian dollar is up above the American dollar again. This has to also be having an impact on Veritas's ability to sell in the American market. It must have been a whole lot easier when the Canadian dollar was 70 cents American.

One thing I have learnt about business people is that they say what they would like, but when it comes between them and profit, it's out the window and time to do what's needed, so we can only hope that Veritas is not hit by the Canadian government during these hard times.

[Gary Keedwell]

I see that the Canadian dollar is up above the American dollar again. This has to also be having an impact on Veritas's ability to sell in the American market. It must have been a whole lot easier when the Canadian dollar was 70 cents American.

One thing I have learnt about business people is that they say what they would like, but when it comes between them and profit, it's out the window and time to do what's needed, so we can only hope that Veritas is not hit by the Canadian government during these hard times.
Mr. Lee posted earlier in this thread and he seems confident about his business. I think alot of reasonable people weigh different criteria when deciding from whom to purchase from. Prompt delivery, great customer service, well manufactured product are as important as the price in my opinion.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_15_61.gifGary