Rotary Tool - Epilog Homemade

[Pete Simmons]

Would someone measure and send me the diameters of the pulleys and rotor on the Epilog tool? Maybe even a picture of the power end of the tool.

If Epilog will sell me the stepper motor for not a huge number of $$$ I would like to build my own chuck based rotary tool.

[Shane Gould]

Please keep us informed on this project, prices etc. I may be interested in doing something like this as well.

Thanks,

[Doug Fennell]

Pete, no need to go through Epilog for a motor - it's just a vexta 2-phase 6 wire motor. No need to even use the vexta brand for that matter.
Model number is PH-265m-33-C9 (when you do a search, just search for PH-265m-33).

Specs are 24V (not even critical for this application)
.21A (per phase)
.9deg per step

Pacific Scientific makes similar specd motors, and Ebay is a great source for steppers in general.

Should be an easy project. I'll measure the rotors tomorrow. The rotation angle per step will be critical, but the way of getting there is open for debate - in other words, you could do a worm drive if you'd like.

Made several of these for CNC mills in the past, the one for the Epilog shouldn't be an issue.

As for parts, I'd consider the 3 jaw chuck from a Taig mini lathe - they're inexpensive and top quality. Perfectly suited for this app.

As for the drive, easiest will be to use a bronze spur gear and worm. Best will be to hob your own on a lathe. For this app, I wouldn't even bother with hobbing a gear, I'd just use bronze.

[Doug Fennell]

You know, on second thought it'd be even easier to just use a belt drive - there's really no torsional force so no need for a gear drive unless you just wanted to. It's gonna come down to the mass of the chuck you choose to go with - lighter the better.

[Kim Vellore]

The rotary fixture is quite simple to build and will work better if custom built for your application.
Epilog has gone from Vexta to Lin Engineering motor (lot cheaper). The motors are cheap Just make sure it is unipolar and rated for minimum of 24V, Doug is right in saying 24V not critical, I would agree for most application and when I made mine I used a 12V motor but it almost got burnt. Here is the reason: Epilog uses the chip LMD18245, it is a full bridge motor driver to drive the rotary stepper motor. The problem is way Epilog drives this motor, it is driven at full power no PWM, or current limit or cutback at idle, The motor sees ~50V DC at the coils all the time, even the 24V motor I used gets pretty hot.

Most steppers are rated at low voltages and are driven at 3-25 times the rated voltage that is OK if the driver limits the current. In the Epilog driver there is no current limit. I had to look hard to find some 24V motors, I found some at a surplus store for $3.95.
Dont worry about the torque, this motor is over driven and can turn a gorilla.
Kim

[Justin Harrington]

I would be very interested to find out is anyone has managed to make a chuck type rotary fixture for the Epilog. I recentley lost out on a very luctrative deal to laser engrave telescope eye rings due to the fact that there was no way of holding the part on the current rotary and achieving accurate spacings as the part was prone to slip on the wheel arrangement. If anyone out there is planning or has the capability to make one I'd be interested.

Thanks
JUSTIN

[Pete Simmons]

Let me describe how I think some of this works and see if I can get aggreement or be corrected.


Rotary tool - for the moment lets forget the drive ratio from the stepper motor to the drive wheels. Lets just look at the drive wheels.

Since you set vertical page size to the cercumfernce of the item you want to engrave - if your item was the same diameter as the drive wheel then the drive wheel should make exactly 1 revolution - Correct??

Example - engrave a line around a rod the diameter of the drive wheel. Set the vert page size correct and it should make 1 rev.

[Doug Fennell]

Well, you can't seperate the two. A stepping motor works by by sending a pulse train of on/offs to it and it steps (in this case) 9deg per step - assuming that Epilog is not microstepping the drive. I doubt they aremicrostepping, there would be no reason to for this application.

In other words, it the piece you are working on is the same diameter of the drive wheel, the drive wheel will make 1 revolution if it's driving in a 1:1 ratio and your engraving the entire circumfrence. If the piece you are working on is 10 times the diameter of the wheel, or 100X or even 100000X, the drive wheel will still make 1 revolution if you're engraving the entire circumfrence of the object.

Clear as mud? :-)

The bottom line is your drive ratio must mimic the epilog's unit, regardless of the mechanism used to drive.

Here's the easiest way to make what you're after...

Order a Taig lathe headstock spindle and 3 jaw chuck.
Mount a drive wheel the diameter required to mimic the final drive ratio of the Epilog rotary on the rear of the headstock.
Drive with a belt dirrectly off of the stepper output shaft.

Do a search for Nick Carter and Taig on google, you'll come up with his page - he sells everything you'd need to put it together on the cheap.

[Richard Rumancik]

Just a word or warning, though, about home-built rotary fixtures. If you choose to select a surplus motor that seems "about the same" as the Epilog motor, and you damage the driver, you are on your own. If my laser was under warranty, I would only buy the motor from Epilog. If it was off warranty, I would probably use whatever motor Epilog uses, regardless of where I got it.

I have considered building a rotary for my Mercury, but if I do, I will be very careful to match their motor. On the Mercury, the motor drivers are on the mainboard (I don't particularly like this configuration) but if you blow the driver, the mainboard needs to be repaired. Don't know whether the Epilog and ULS do the same thing. Some people would not be comfortable replacing the drivers on the board. And troubleshooting without schematics can be a problem.

[Alan Young]

Just wondering if the motors for the mercury are servo or stepper for the rotary. Seem like an intriguing project since I do not have a rotary. Any idea where to get the pin out of the mercury connection?

Alan

[Pete Simmons]

Just got this answer to an inquiry to the manufacturer


Peter
Thank you for contacting Oriental Motor.
The motor part number you mentioned is a proprietary motor,
and it has specail modification from the standard motor.
The best replacement is to contact the machine manifacturer for the replacement.
Oriental Motor USA
Technical Support
www.orientalmotor.com (http://www.orientalmotor.com)

> Vexta PH265M-33-C9 <

[Mike Hood]

Just wondering if the motors for the mercury are servo or stepper for the rotary. Seem like an intriguing project since I do not have a rotary. Any idea where to get the pin out of the mercury connection?

Alan

Servo is made by SOHO with two part numbers labeled:

T1MO051858 and 7Q3360-19110B-18Y

I took mine apart and shot some pics. Hope they help with the ideas. It would be VERY easy to add a chuck to a LaserPro laser.

http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0001.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0002.jpg

http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0003.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0004.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0005.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0006.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0007.jpg
http://iboatnw.com/images/IMG_0008.jpg

[Doug Fennell]

Here's the basic idea - just replace the worm drive with belt.

http://members.shaw.ca/mryankey/4th%20axis.htm

As an alternative if you'd rather not tackle the job yourself, have Paul Jones build it for you. He caters to the DIY CNC community and would have no problem building the entire rig for you. Here's his webpage -

http://www.cnconabudget.com/

[Doug Fennell]

Mike, that unit would be super easy to retrofit a chuck to. It's actually a very nice design.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . Thank you for contacting Oriental Motor. The motor part number you mentioned is a proprietary motor,
and it has specail modification from the standard motor.

It is hard to say offhand what the special mod is. Sometimes it is something simple like the connector style. Othertimes it might be the OEMs choice of encoder. Or an extra ground wire. Or special bearings. In any event they do not want to rock the boat with their OEM customers by selling "spare parts" thereby undercutting their primary customers.

If you can decipher the part number code then that can shed some light on it. For example, -C9 could be a connector style (just a guess/example).

They might sell an off-the-shelf version but keep in mind they are used to selling many motors at a time.

[Mike Hood]

Yeppers. It's designed perfectly for that.

Say what you will about LaserPro, but I've been very impressed by the quality of their design and attention to detail.

A single set screw holds that rubber face onto the shaft.

[Pete Simmons]

Anybody got a picture of the drive end of the Epilog Rotary?

[Doug Fennell]

Yeah, it's hard to say what the mod is. I found the pinout with coil diags, so it'll be easy to see if the epilog unit matches the schematic. It very well might just be a connector diffrence. For example, if Epilog had 10,000 main boards with a connector designed for a motor from another manufacturer, it would be much easier to simply have the supplier of the new motors change the connector. It could even be the same connector, but with wires in diffrent locations! It should be easy to sort out with a multimeter.

Since it's a stepper, there's no encoder, no way reason or need to do anuthing to the coils and the stock bearings are fairly large anyway. I'll bet money its a connector mod.

Pete, I'll take critical dimensions of the Epilog rotary tomorrow afternoon.

[Scott Shepherd]

Anybody got a picture of the drive end of the Epilog Rotary?

Click to enlarge :

[Pete Simmons]

Thanks Scott!

[Scott Shepherd]

Glad I could help for a change :)

[Richard Rumancik]

Servo is made by SOHO with two part numbers labeled: T1MO051858 and 7Q3360-19110B-18Y
I took mine apart and shot some pics. Hope they help with the ideas. It would be VERY easy to add a chuck to a LaserPro laser.

Mike, thanks for posting these pictures.

One thing it tells me about making your own rotary - you need to have (at a minimum) both the motor, but any "interface" board the manufacture might tuck into the assembly. Your photos show a small circuit board so it would not be very easy to buy a motor and wire your own. In addition to getting the ratios correct, it would be necessary to get the interface correct.

You mentioned it would be easy to add a chuck to the LaserPro. This mod is reasonable to do by the user. But to build a rotary from scratch it would talk a lot of time and effort, and procuring parts could be a big problem.

I was considering building one because I wanted to rotate a part larger than the LaserPro fixture permitted. It looks like a big project however. It would be much simpler to take the whole LaserPro assembly and remount it on a different base, and then add a proper chuck. Of course it would not save any money to do this.

The rotary fixtures are expensive but after seeing these pictures I would not attempt building from scratch.

[Martin Reynolds]

Proprietary can mean as little as a custom length harness and connector.

I would expect most moderate to small steppers to work.

The laserpro machine uses a servo, a bit more sophisticated. Any pictures of the part number from that chip? It is probably just a buffer.

[Levi Chanowitz]

maybe you could help me.

I have a newing-hall (Domiteaux) computerised mecanical engraver with a built in rotary attachment. It is super for cups, they are held by cones.

I need a a setup that would permit me to engrave the inside and/ or outside of the ring.

[Doug Fennell]

Levi, that's a nice high end engraver. How fo you like it?

As for your solution, the engraving of the outside of rings calls for a fairly simple setup that you can most probably retrofit to your current setup - all you need is an explanding mandrel.

I'm not suggesting that you use the ones from this company as they won't fit you application, but they will servce to illustrate the principal -

http://www.workholding.com/findidcollet.htm

I do understand correctly that you have the 4th axis option?

As for adapting to engraving the indise of the ring, well - that presents a new set of problems to be overcome. Here's the tried and true mechanical movement required -

http://www.kassoy.com/benchtools04.html

Outside engraving is fairly easily adaptable - inside engraving is probably beyond the scope of the machine.

[Levi Chanowitz]

I have the cylindrical attachment. It moves automatically. You adjust it to thecorrect diameter in the software It is made for bigger items.

The company sells a ring hoding attachment and a inside ring engraver.

The machine is super. I use a xenetech controller

[AL Ursich]

I have been in the market for a Rotary for my Epilog but building one is a better choice for me. I found one for $850.00 but I don't need it today and building one would be FUN.

I have a Navy Analog Fire Control Computer background and Sony Factory Automation training so it would be FUN.

AL

US Navy Retired FCC(SW)
Fire Control Tech

[Ryan O'Hara]

All,

I just got my Epilog with the rotary attachment. The Lin Engineering motor is 5609-11-01RO. The closest part from the website that I could find is at http://www.linengineering.com//site/products/5609.html.

Overall the design is so simple and the parts count very minimal I really think that these parts could be cut on the laser and assembled for your own DIY kit. After the holidays I might break the rotary tool down and with a scanner or the x/y output from the laser get the hole dimensions and locations.

[Brian Robison]

I'm also very interested in making a rotary attachment. Please if anyone is making one, track the making of it for us.

[David Fairfield]

This is an awesome idea. I have a rotary attachment from Epilog and frankly, it sucks for doing precision glass engraving. Although the rotary attachment can be adjusted to accept a multitude of cylindrical objects there is too much play and wobble in the tool to get consistent results. I end up with too much waste for this tool to be commercially viable.

Also depending on the taper of the part, say a typical wine glass, there can be a "dead zone" of a few milimeters down from the upper lip of the glass where you can not engrave, the home position can not be adjusted with the rotary tool plugged in!

I really like the idea of a lathe headstock attached to a rotor, that should solve any wobble problems.

Dave

[Doug Fennell]

I think I'll get started on a prototype shortly. The belt drive is simple and viable for this application, and I don't thing it'll be terribly difficult to machine the large end belt gear from acrylic. Aluminum will probably cause a bit to much wear to the belt. The belts are off the shelf items available in several sizes, and the "special mod" to the motor looks to be nothing more than extended lead wires in a 8 pin molex type header.

What are the ideas for chuck sizes? I'm thinking a smaller size chuck with internal and external jaws would be ideal. Maybe 2.5" or 3" internal size.

What do most envision engraving with this setup?

Would it be worth making a tail stock so you could mount a heavy piece between centers?

We could even use a cone adaptor and a variable height tail post to be able to do tapered stock (think glasses where the rim has a greater diameter than the base).

Just for giggles, we could also add a mechanical disconnect on the chuck so we could ACCURATELY set home position.

[Pete Simmons]

Chucks sound nice but remember vertical clearance for the head.

Say you used a 3 inch diameter chuch and had a Baron lower pen body in it. You need to pay attention to the distance from the top of your work to the top of the chuck and plan it so the laser head will not hit it.

[Pete Simmons]

Some specs for a timing pulley


0.0816 Pitch 40 DP Single and Double Flange Timing Belt Pulleys


Can anyone explain how pitch is measured and what the 40 dp refers to?

I am looking at pulleys from small parts any other sources of these parts?

[Scott Shepherd]

It's been a long time since I cut a gear, but I believe DP stands for Diametral Pitch and I think it's a ratio of teeth to diameter or something like that.

I'll probably get the terms wrong since I haven't worked with them in a number of years, but in general, the pitch is the diameter at the point where the points of the teeth actually contact each other. It's normally measured with a special set of gear measuring instruments.

Check grainger or mcmaster carr.

[Skip Weiser]

Just throwing in a pic of my chinese rotary. It's a pretty simple design and it works very well. I thought maybe it might give some ideas to you guys that want to build one.


Skip

[Mike Hood]

Just throwing in a pic of my chinese rotary. It's a pretty simple design and it works very well. I thought maybe it might give some ideas to you guys that want to build one.


Skip

I've added a chuck like that to mine as well now. Very simple way to engrave oddball stuff...

[Pete Simmons]

Got a stepper motor working.

By observing I see 3 turns of the stepper for a 4 inch line being engraved.

Using this excel spread sheet to calculate timing gear sizes

Not working as planed. To use a 2.67 dia large gear (around 90 -100 teeth) requires to small of a gear on the stepper to match the above specs. (which may be in error)

Anyone see any errors in this?

[Mike Hood]

Easiest would have someone with an Epilog count the teeth on the gears for ya.

[Jerry Allen]

Pete,
Your calcs look okay to me.
Scot is right about DP. You need to choose two gears with matching DP so they mesh correctly.
The laser is still going to pulse the same from the software/firmaware driver, so the 2 phase .9 deg. step is necessary for the motor, and I'd maintain the voltage also to be safe.

PS--Sorry I just looked at the picture again, and it is cogged teeth. Just need Scott to count the teeth for you to get the correct ratio.

[Frank Corker]

Funny you should say that. I have and emailed Pete.
Cog A is the motor. 16 teeth
Cog B & C are main drive wheels - each have 96 teeth.
The belt which goes around Cog A B and C and a small tensioner has 204 teeth.

For every full turn of cogs B & C cog A turns 6 times.
For every full turn of the drive belt - cog A turns 64 times.

Okay, mathematics boffins get to it!!!

[Jerry Allen]

That's all he needs to know is the 6:1 ratio. Any similar ratio, i.e., 15 and 90 teeth, etc., should work.
The DP will change the diameters, but the ratios will be the same.

[Pete Simmons]

Thanks everyone.

Especially Frank.

He sent me some great photos along with the ratio info.


I am building a rotary tool that will have a pen mandrel mounted on it so there will be no slipping of o-ring wheels. I want to keep my ratios the same as a reg rotary tool so as not to stray to far from the orginal idea.


Thanks again.

I will keep you posted as this works out. Might be awhile as this is a fun project to do and I am in no hurry.

[Pete Simmons]

Got it working.

Lotza trouble finding the parts I wanted.

I guess most people have no trouble with the friction wheels slipping but I wanted direct drive.

I will be doing mostly some type of pen work. As in vector cutting for fancy inlays so I wanted something special for pens.

Note the pen mandrel shaft.

To use it goes like this - I know how many inches of vert line makes one rev. So I have that length line and a ruler sitting on the left on my work page. I calculate the circumfrence of the pen barrell I am working on and set a vert line and ruler up with that.

Make your image in a standard way.

Now the fun part - vert stretch the image out to fit in the one rev line length.

Works perfect. I will not be useing a lot of different sizes so I am not concerned with the extra work on the image.

I will be doing the same items many times so I am glad I have a precision system that I know has Zero slip.

This was not easy or cheap but I got what I wanted. If you want a Rotary Tool I suggest you call 1-800-Epilog.

[Frank Corker]

Well done Pete, looks like a grand job that you've done, you now have to post some of the pens that you do.

[AL Ursich]

I still have a foot in both camps... Buy or Play and make one....

AL

[Jerry Allen]

Nice job, Pete.
There's a lot to be said for doing your own.
You certainly will not have any trouble diagnosing it if it needs repair.
Modifying it will not require you to agonize over voiding a warranty,
and you probably saved some cash too.

[Charles Rudisill]

Hello Everyone, Thanks for all of the info on this thread. I'm also interested in making a rotary attachment because the stock ones aren't suitable. I contacted Epilog and they quoted over $300 for a new motor (with a replacement ~$250, forgot exactly). Now, I think Epilog's service is excellent in general, but charging 7x or so the cost of this motor is unreasonable (I was even willing to pay 3-4x). Anyway, I also inquired at Oriental and they also said the PH256M is an OEM motor. I didn't see any 24 volt(or close)rated unipolar motors listed on their website. Is the actual maximum output current 0.21 amps..this would produce a winding resistance of 114 ohms, (didnt see anything around this in a unipolar config.) I suppose the main thing here is to avoid overheating, and since not a lot of torque is required, a higher amperage rated motor could be used? I'd appreciate any input or motor # info you've used in your applications. Thanks in advance for the help! Charles

[Pete Simmons]

Charles:

I am sure with some effort I could have found a suitable motor for $50- $80 new.

What I was not comfortable with was expirementing to find the correct connections to my very $$$$ laser. And this is from a guy who built and flew his own aircraft ( Long-Ez N85PK )

I bought the motor from Epilog plugged it in and everything works perfect.

[Doug Fennell]

Well, this should do it -

15Teeth, 16DP, 14.5 Pressure Angle

90Teeth, 16DP, 14.5 Pressure Angle

I put a bolt hole pattern in the center to make it easy to attach.

6:1 ratio

Should work fine made of Delrin (Acetol)

Can modify drawing if needed.

[Doug Fennell]

As an alternative to making your own gearset with the file I uploaded, you could also use the 16 tooth and 96 tooth gears from All Parts - pdf catalog page attached.

[Pete Simmons]

I was able to find the gears and pulleys I needed at

sdp-si.com

[Avraham Monina]

I know this is an OLD thread but wanted to know if a solution was developed, was anyone able to complete this DIY?

[Glen Monaghan]

I wasn't satisfied with using a 12 or 24V stepper with the Epilog's 48V drivers (even though Epilog uses 24V motors; many people have reported that they can get uncomfortably hot), so I had a couple (figured it wouldn't hurt to have a spare while testing) of 48V steppers custom wound.

Not an mech engineer by any definition, but I cobbled up a basic design for a chuck version with option to adapt for rollers. I have pretty much all the parts, just missing the time and prioritization to get 'er done and working... :^( I've talked with a few others who've worked on similar because I'm certain there are better ways than I've come up with, and got some helpful info, but most either don't want to get any more involved in other people's effort or have ideas of selling their versions if and when they ever get them finished and tweaked.

-Glen

[Avraham Monina]

Glen, thanks for responding. I am not a mechanical kind of person either so I dont have the skills to design one, but I can follow instructions of a built.

Avraham

[William R Butler]

Click to enlarge :

Can you give the wheel size (overall diameter including the O rings) of the Epilog rotary attachment please?

Can you confirm also the ratio of the gears and belt width and pitch?

I'd appreciate very much.
Thanks

[Kim Vellore]

The motor gets hot because the way the epilog system drives it, like old school pure DC (no PWM) and no power cutback during idle. What you could do is use a optocoupler and feed the motor signals into a microcontroller which in turn can drive a stepper motor driver, so now you can use a range of motors. You could also change the resolution by microstepping which will give you more control on your engraving resolution.

Kim

[Scott Shepherd]

Can you give the wheel size (overall diameter including the O rings) of the Epilog rotary attachment please?

Can you confirm also the ratio of the gears and belt width and pitch?

I'd appreciate very much.
Thanks

Sorry, I can't. That post you referenced was made 8 years ago. The machine is long gone so I don't have any way to measure any of it.