Cheap planer lesson/sore thumbs...

[Ed Ditto]

Had a near miss this morning while making a batch of the ubiquitous walnut/cherry/maple end grain Xmas cutting boards...and thought I'd share the lesson learned, as well as a solution.

I was doing the initial thickness planing with my Makita 2012NB, being careful to take tiny little bites so the planer wouldn't bog down. But the fourth board I fed through had a vertically-oriented "slice" that stood a hair taller than the others, and as luck would have it, it was second from the front in the direction I was feeding.

So picture it: the rollers accept the first lower "slice" and carry the board into the planer. The lead blade abruptly come into contact with the second higher "slice." It shatters. The second blade slaps the face of the slice but doesn't shatter, thereby propelling the board back toward me at Mach 9...jamming the hell out of both my thumbs in the process. Worse than any basketball ever did, and both of them at once.

I dance around the shop cursing Santa Claus until sanity resumes and I think to shut the planer and dust collector off. Now I'm typing an accident report and every time I hit the space bar I wince. Fun, fun. Lucky not to have two broken thumbs, or a cutting board embedded in my abdomen.

So here's the solution I thought of. First, before thickness planing an end-grain glue-up it's worth taking a few passes over the board with a hand planer to reduce the board to close to uniform thickness. And 2nd, when thickness planing an end-grain glue-up that's close to the width of the planer, it's a good idea to use a push stick from off to one side.

Anybody see any other ways to make this a safer operation?

I'll share one other cutting board tip with you, since 'tis the season and all. If you're passing end-grain glue-ups through a thickness planer you have to deal with tearout on the trailing edge.

You could go ahead and add a sacrificial piece to the trailing edge...but I've found that if you go ahead and round over the trailing edge, this has the effect of making that edge fall away from the planer blade before the very end. And that prevents tearout. Then you re-round that edge during your final finishing.

OK...now I gotta go find some ice...and order some new planer blades.

Ed

[Keith Beck]

First off, no fair using big words like "ubiquitous" on us!

As for the cutting board vs. planer, BTDT! Luckily I wasn't standing behind the planer at the time and no serious damage to the planer. But, it did result in a cutting board that had to end up several inches short than planned.

I've learned my lesson, no more end grain cutting boards through the planer. I've now got a Jet drum sander, so I use that instead. If I didn't, I'd resort to a belt sander and handplane.

Keith

[Art Mann]

Thickness planers were not designed to cut across the grain. Some people do it and get away with it for a while, but kick-back and knife damage (at least) is often the result. If I were building end grain cutting boards, I would take them to a cabinet shop and have them smoothed on a drum sander.

[Mike Marcade]

I have heard a few stories on the creek about surface planing end grain glue-ups. The one thing they all have in common is a bad kick-back at the end of the story.

I concur with Art.

[Gary Keedwell]

I have heard a few stories on the creek about surface planing end grain glue-ups. The one thing they all have in common is a bad kick-back at the end of the story.

I concur with Art.
That is absolutely false. I have done end grain cutting boards without incident and have heard from numerous people who, also, have not had any problems.
I have also watched at least 2 videos from reputable woodworkers who have done many end-grain cutting boards without incident.
Gary

[Mike Marcade]

That is absolutely false. I have done end grain cutting boards without incident and have heard from numerous people who, also, have not had any problems.
I have also watched at least 2 videos from reputable woodworkers who have done many end-grain cutting boards without incident.
Gary

All I said was about the few stories I have heard personally. I guess you have heard some different ones. Thats all good, but it doesn't make mine false does it?

[Brian Weick]

I have planed several top grain projects through my planer and have had absolutely no problem - it treats it like it was cake going through there- Although I have a Jet 15" planer - that machine eats wood- It may be your planer that can't handle the cross grain planning, sorry to say. I have a Ridged 13"planer as well and that does not like cross grain planing - I did it a few times, smaller projects - fine, but a few larger diameter projects- dulls the blades- and it completed it but it was straining just to finish the plane. It is great for planing "with the grain" but I wouldn't do to much cross grain on it- that goes to the 220v 15" Jet.
My 2 cents :)
Brian

[Keith Beck]

That is absolutely false. I have done end grain cutting boards without incident and have heard from numerous people who, also, have not had any problems.
I have also watched at least 2 videos from reputable woodworkers who have done many end-grain cutting boards without incident.
Gary

Gary,

I too had made several end-grain boards without incident before I had one "blow up" on me. I think it's more a matter of "when" it's going to happen instead of "if" it's going to happen. With the amount of damage an exploding cutting board can do to your planer, I figure why take the risk?

Keith

[Gary Herrmann]

Out of curiousity, were the incidents planing cutting boards in lunchbox planers or all kinds of models? I'm just wondering if the floor models can grunt through it. Altho I may just pull out a handplane when I get around to making one.

[Eddie Darby]

Belt sander, or Neanderthal it with a real good Bevel Up Low Angle Smoothing hand plane.

[Ed Ditto]

This was a lunchbox planer, a 12" capacity one.

[Art Mann]

That is absolutely false. I have done end grain cutting boards without incident and have heard from numerous people who, also, have not had any problems.
I have also watched at least 2 videos from reputable woodworkers who have done many end-grain cutting boards without incident.
Gary

Read through some owner's manuals of various planers and see what they have to say. Just because you have used a planer in this way without incident doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. There have been entirely too many reports on this board and Woodnet of kick-backs and broken blades doing this very thing to just pass it off as a fluke.

[Walt Caza]

Sorry about your thumbs Ed,
All lessons cost, some more than others...thanks for sharing your
experience. Maybe someone else can learn the lesson that you payed for?

There has been no response to the question of larger planers handling
endgrain better than lunchbox models. Anyone care to weigh in on that?

Also, I have a fresh 15" planer, 3hp 240volt with Byrd carbide head.
(stealth gloat I guess) (I know...no pic, didn't happen)
Now I am wondering if the Shelix can handle a little endgrain?
One of the major benefits they flaunt is less tear-out...
does that suggest the inserts might do ok with endgrain cutting boards?!?

Inquiring minds wanna know....(but I am chicken to hurt my new machine!)
anyone care to share?
Walt
:)

[Ed Ditto]

Here's an update: I got the new planer blades via overnight DHL and installed them, and damned if I didn't have another kickback inside of ten minutes.

I was crafty this time...stood off to one side and used a push stick, and good thing too...the board shot across my shop like a checkerboard cannonball. BAM! Gone.

Sez I: "This ain't right." I unplugged the beast and tore into it to check the works. Turns out what I originally thought was going on wasn't the problem at all...or at least, wasn't the whole explanation.

I found on close inspection that one of the set plates was warped. The Makita 2012B has these little six-screw set plates about an inch by twelve inches that lock the planer blades into the drum, and one of them had maybe two degrees of arc in it for a length of an inch and a half.

What that was doing was allowing the blade to flex slightly, thereby scooping wood fibers out of the top of the workpiece and trapping them between the blade and the drum. Those fibers served to shim the blade out far enough to create a bulge of about 1/32nd or so, which was PLENTY enough to bat the workpiece back out of the machine.

I got this unit three months ago and I've run a couple of hundred board feet face-grain and edge-grain through it, no trouble. So I figure planing end-grain somehow warped the set plate...unless it's possible that the warped set plate was a manufacturing defect that needed vertically-oriented wood fibers to reveal itself.

Search me what the answer is...I can see arguments both ways. At any rate, I'll be asking Makita tech support those questions first thing in the morning.

Ed

[Greg Peterson]

Well, whether or not end grain cutting boards can go through a planer can be argued till the cows come home.

Apparently some folks have no problem using the thickness planer for this process. Were I so fortunate to live such a charmed life I to might throw caution to the wind and engage in said activity. However, with other methods available that lack the potential for injury or equipment damage, I see little reason to tempt the wood gods, capricious as they appear to be.

[Todd Jensen]

I can't tell you to what to run through your planer, but its worth mentioning I have a nice scar on my chest from a cutting board kickback. It happened to catch my lowest rib which stopped it from ripping into my stomach. Wasn't my first rodeo, but my last time sending end grain glue ups through the planer. I now just am very careful to do an accurate glue-up, hit it with the belt sander, and then block sand it, and then ros until 220.

[Gary Keedwell]

Wow ...I haven't been back to this thread in awhile. Didn't mean to rile anybody up. I should say when I did my end grain cutting board I took every precaution I could. I will send the board through sometimes 3 or 4 times lowering the blades carefully until I barely cut anything. Then I only lower the blades a few thousands at a time.
. I always push things thru with another board and always stand on the side ...out of range.
Gary

[Corey Wilcox]

I too make a number of end grain cutting boards every year, but don't have a planer yet so I typically knock down the majority of uneveness using a sharp block plane. What I've noticed while doing this is that even with a freshly sharpened blade (will shave hair no problem) I sometimes get tear out. When that happens I will rotate the piece and typically the tear out subsides. My point to this is that perhaps the planer is kicking the boards back because the knives are encountering tear out. Stress from tear out might possibly flex either the blades or the machine in general making a deeper or more aggressive cut than what it can realistically handle. I realize this might sound a little far-fetched, but when you consider some of the folks are using 1/128th deep cuts even a micro change could make a major difference. I always have to remind myself (usually after I charge in and tear out a healthy chunk with the plane) that even though the wood is "end grain" it doesn't always mean that the grain is perfectly perpendicular. It might very well be tipped one way or another ever so slightly. Those are just my thoughts on that matter for what they're worth.

[Dan Oelke]

Using a Delta lunchbox I ruined a set of planer blades once on a loose knot. It took a big chunk out of one blade and dinged the second. The hold down was slightly bent, but nothing that a hammer and anvil couldn't fix.

I also replaced the blades and a couple of boards later the new blades sent to heck. I can't remember if they actually broke or just started not planing right. Tearing into it I found that the hold down was bent again. I got a new hold down this time around and the planer has been fine since.

I bet in your situation that the first catch that broke the blade also bent the hold down but maybe not enough for you to notice it. The replacement blade then suffered because it didn't have enough support behind it, resulting in wood fibers getting wedged in there.

My suggestion - get a new hold down and see what happens. Maybe even replace both of them.

[Bill Huber]

I run all my endgrains though the planer.
This is the way I do it and I have never had a problem with the 32 boards I have done.

1. Raise the heads until I can push the board though without touching the rollers.
2. With the board still though the planer (laying on the table under the heads) I will lower the head until it just touches the board.
3. Remove the board and run it though the planer, at this point it is not cutting anything.
4. Lower the heads a very small amount, may or may not be cutting anything at this point.
5. Lower the heads another very small amount. At this point it will most of the time be cutting some very small amount.
6. Run the board though again without changing anything.
7. Lower the heads another very small amount.

When I say a very small amount I am talking like 1/128 or maybe 1/64, it is just a very small push on the crank.
Once it starts to doing any cutting I always run the board though the second time without changing any settings.

I check and clean the blades after every 2 or 3 boards, I have found build up of I think glue under a blade at one time.

Even with all of this I do not stand in front of the planer, I always stand to the side.

[Gary Keedwell]

A little finesse goes a long way;):rolleyes:
Gary

[Dell Littlefield]

I had a similar experience with my 12 inch Craftsman planer. Like you, I had more than knife damage. Replacement parts cost nearly as much as the original price of the planer. Here's another vote for alternate methods of finishing end grain cutting boards.

[Matt Day]

"I think it's more a matter of "when" it's going to happen instead of "if" it's going to happen."

Oh come on guys... This is just my opinion, but simply use your head! If you're glue up is not that great and you have a strip or two that is much higher than the others, then sand that down before you put it through the planer. And if your glue up is very bad you probably should work on your glue up technique and not put it through the planer, b/c your techniques with the planer probably isn't that great/safe either!

I've done about a dozen boards with no problems other than some tearout at the end which I cut off and/or round over afterwards. But I take enough precaution prior to the first past with the planer, and take very light cuts thereafter. I don't feel it's a dangerous job if done correctly.

I use a DW734 and maybe it's design is different/better than the machine in question.

[Ed Ditto]

Makita was kind enough to replace the warped set plate free of charge. No more trouble from the planer...but no more end-grain run through there, either. Thickness planing end grain is not an operation I'll be doing in my shop anymore.

No, instead I'll be taking cutting boards to my buddy at the nice cabinet shop with the big CNC router. He's doing a batch of ten for me on Monday night, as a matter of fact...

Ed

[Leo Zick]

in all i read about cutting boards, i didnt think that end grain would be an issue.
(im bumping this thread for its usefulness!)

i started my first cutting board this weekend, and after the first glue-up, realized there was no way in hell i was going to sand or hand plane the boards even. so, i got a ridgid planer. WOW, this thing is amazing!! it completely smoothed and leveled the board. it looked so good i assumed id stop there, but nooo, why do that?
so, i cut it up, trying to be more precise so i wouldnt have to plane and lose so much thickness this time around.

after the cuts and the glue dried this morning, off to plane!
first pass, it chattered a little, and didnt smooth out much. so, i assumed this was 'snipe' and moved on to another pass, lowering the blade height.

the 2nd pass, BAM. it just missed me, and put a nice hole in my wall, and i lost about a third of the board.
wonderful.
ok, easy to fix, ill take small passes.. and i did, and it was grooving pretty good. then, one more pass, a fraction of a turn too far down, and bam, another chunk gone.
(at least i was standing on the side this time).

so now my 18x12 cutting board is closer to 12x8. :(

at least im not hurt.

so, after lesson learned, i did a search and saw most dont recommend doing this, but some have had luck with really small passes.

what the consensus here? maybe i just wont do end grain?
:(

[Bill Huber]

in all i read about cutting boards, i didnt think that end grain would be an issue.
(im bumping this thread for its usefulness!)

i started my first cutting board this weekend, and after the first glue-up, realized there was no way in hell i was going to sand or hand plane the boards even. so, i got a ridgid planer. WOW, this thing is amazing!! it completely smoothed and leveled the board. it looked so good i assumed id stop there, but nooo, why do that?
so, i cut it up, trying to be more precise so i wouldnt have to plane and lose so much thickness this time around.

after the cuts and the glue dried this morning, off to plane!
first pass, it chattered a little, and didnt smooth out much. so, i assumed this was 'snipe' and moved on to another pass, lowering the blade height.

the 2nd pass, BAM. it just missed me, and put a nice hole in my wall, and i lost about a third of the board.
wonderful.
ok, easy to fix, ill take small passes.. and i did, and it was grooving pretty good. then, one more pass, a fraction of a turn too far down, and bam, another chunk gone.
(at least i was standing on the side this time).

so now my 18x12 cutting board is closer to 12x8. :(

at least im not hurt.

so, after lesson learned, i did a search and saw most dont recommend doing this, but some have had luck with really small passes.

what the consensus here? maybe i just wont do end grain?
:(


I guess you did not read the messages close enough.
If you look at mine I state that I run the board though 2 times before I change the settings.

You should also be able to push the board though the planner to start (planner off), this way you know there is noting to high that will make a big cut.

I start at a point that the board will just be pulled though, in fact sometimes I have to use a push stick to get it to come out, that is how small of a cut I am taking.

I would also say you need to cut a bevel on the ends so you don't get the chucks knocked off the ends. I also turn the board 180 degrees on each pass.

I have done 40 plus boards now and have never had a problem.

[Leo Zick]

I guess you did not read the messages close enough.
If you look at mine I state that I run the board though 2 times before I change the settings.

You should also be able to push the board though the planner to start (planner off), this way you know there is noting to high that will make a big cut.

I start at a point that the board will just be pulled though, in fact sometimes I have to use a push stick to get it to come out, that is how small of a cut I am taking.

I would also say you need to cut a bevel on the ends so you don't get the chucks knocked off the ends. I also turn the board 180 degrees on each pass.

I have done 40 plus boards now and have never had a problem.


i guess you didnt either. i referred to your post:
"....but some have had luck with really small passes."

thanks again for re-iterating. ill most likely attempt this again, but it is a nerve racking and expensive mistake!

[Peter Quinn]

Not trying to create further discord, but as a former professional chef and current professional wood worker I see little point to producing and using end grain cutting boards to begin with, and even less point to stress my machines planing them. I own a drum sander and have access to a wide belt at work, so this may increase my options and color my thinking. What is the appeal of an end grain board supposed to be? I see many people make them and have often wondered why not edge grain?

I have a 30'X30"X24" end grain maple butcher block in my kitchen, and it resists the most severe pounding and chopping one can offer but requires far greater maintenance than any other cutting surface I have and is hardly the best surface for general use. I use a belt sander to reflatten it as needed as neither my planer nor sander can accept a 24" tall chunk of wood, and even if they could it weights over 400# and cannot easily be lifted onto a machine.:eek: I doubt many planers are capable of kicking it back in any event.

[Rob Damon]

I haven't tried endgrain through my Planer yet, but I never stand directly behind any board being fed into it.

But this makes me a little curious.

I have a 5 HP, PM 209 that has "anti-kickback fingers".

Does this mean they are useless and provide no real function or safety?

Rob

[mreza Salav]

End-grain cutting boards are not hard on knife as the edge-grain ones (so knives stay sharper much longer). Also, you won't cut the fibers of wood and therefore it's less likely to have (very small) pieces of wood mixed with food. Plus, the boards last longer themselves.

As for sending them through the planer: I've built 6 end-grain cutting boards so far. I do have a drum sander but with an 80grit paper it takes forever to smooth them out; and after that I didn't have success to get rid of the marks of sand paper with lower grits (maybe hard maple end-grain is just too hard). So I end up using planer instead.

First round over the edges. Then I have always followed pretty much the procedure Bill suggested. First find the highest point of the board (by running it through the planer when it is OFF by hand to see when it hits the roller). Then take very light passes (definitely less than 1/64''). I use a DW734 12.5 planer.

[Leo Zick]

I have a 30'X30"X24" end grain maple butcher block in my kitchen,

:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

omg.
thats amazing.

from chef to woodworker.. why? both sound exciting though :)

[Chip Lindley]

Once Bitten, Twice Shy! A woodworker can build for years without incident, and perform operations with little or no thought of consequences. But, when a bad kickback does occur, or a piece of wood shatters, life changes! One is forever wary of that same operation when performed again. I have all my fingers after 25 years, but with one mangled fingernail and a few scars!

Every woodworker has his own specific set of circumstances to cope with. Different machines perform differently. Different humans perform differently! By experience, I know my machinery very well and know when an operation is "iffy" or downright dangerous. Some new to woodworking as a hobby may not perceive any danger. We don't need a license to buy power tools!

I have had no bad planer experiences, yet I have driven wood into sheetrock walls from the tablesaw, and wondered if I was still alive after wood exploded on the shaper. Climb cutting on a router table will forever demand my complete attention!

Think "what happens next" and preserve all your body parts for yet another enjoyable day of woodworking.

[Chris Padilla]

I haven't tried endgrain through my Planer yet, but I never stand directly behind any board being fed into it.

But this makes me a little curious.

I have a 5 HP, PM 209 that has "anti-kickback fingers".

Does this mean they are useless and provide no real function or safety?

Rob

My Minimax 16" J/P combo machine has the same fingers, Rob. I have had times where I inserted a board for thicknessing but found the cutter height too high (i.e. it wouldn't cut anything) and I tried to yank the board back but I could not do it. I just end up pushing the board through.

Looking at these kickback fingers, I'm not sure the planer could shove a board back through them but then again, my journal is quite large at 16" wide and perhaps 4-5" in diameter. That is a large mass of metal being spun by a 4+ hp motor.

After reading this informative thread (GREAT BUMP!), I think I'd be okay running end-grain cutting boards through my planer...following Bill's steps religiously! :D

[Leo Zick]

My Minimax 16" J/P combo machine has the same fingers, Rob. I have had times where I inserted a board for thicknessing but found the cutter height too high (i.e. it wouldn't cut anything) and I tried to yank the board back but I could not do it. I just end up pushing the board through.

Looking at these kickback fingers, I'm not sure the planer could shove a board back through them but then again, my journal is quite large at 16" wide and perhaps 4-5" in diameter. That is a large mass of metal being spun by a 4+ hp motor.

After reading this informative thread (GREAT BUMP!), I think I'd be okay running end-grain cutting boards through my planer...following Bill's steps religiously! :D
wow thats a lot of planer. is bigger better, or is it to handle wider stock?

[M Toupin]

The fact is a planer was never designed to cut end grain, there's other machines much better suited for the job, a drum or wide belt for example. Sure, some folks get away with it, 1, 2, 10, 30 times, but that doesn't make it the proper tool or guarantee it won't happen eventually. The lunch box planers are a good deal lighter duty than larger planers and subsequently the innards are damaged much easier when things go bad. The large CI units have much heavier parts that stand up better when things go bang. Still doens't make it better, it just means they take more abuse.

For those who run end grain through your planers, do you also run end grain through your jointer?

Mike

[Chris Padilla]

Not trying to create further discord, but as a former professional chef and current professional wood worker I see little point to producing and using end grain cutting boards to begin with....

David Marks had an interesting analogy regarding this. Imagine a broom, working end up and cutting into it with a knife. You wouldn't be able to slice very much of the broom because the very thin knife would just go right through it hardly disturbing the straw. Now place the broom on a bench and slice into it. You'd chop it up pretty good going at it this direction (chopping perpendicular to the straw flow).

If you don't buy this, then certainly you'd agree that end-grain is much tougher than edge-grain. Take a hand plane and try cutting the two different grain directions and you'll find one much easier than the other....

[Chris Padilla]

wow thats a lot of planer. is bigger better, or is it to handle wider stock?

Bigger is ALWAYS better, Leo!! :D ;)

I like it for handling wider stock and I wanted to purchase this piece of equipment in hopes that I'd never ever need to look at getting another jointer or planer for the rest of my life.

[Chris Padilla]

The fact is a planer was never designed to cut end grain....

Really? How can you be so certain? Hand planes cut end-grain. A planer is just a powered hand plane.


For those who run end grain through your planers, do you also run end grain through your jointer?

Mike

I bought several chunks of some gnarly claro walnut root ball. Honestly, even after taking a plane to it, I could not figure out which way the grain ran so I just picked the smoothest side to start face-planing and woudn't you know it, I was doing end-grain! It was difficult to shove through but my J/P handled it just fine and I got a good workout. My Tersa knives were pretty shot after doing all this but they are double-sided so a quick flip and I was back in biznitch! :D

[M Toupin]

Really? How can you be so certain? Hand planes cut end-grain. A planer is just a powered hand plane.

Not even the same zip code Chris... Let's see; with a planer the wood is trapped between the cutter head and rollers. If something goes bad one of two things have to give, the wood or the machine. On your hand plane you push a blade across the wood. If something goes awry the blade is harmlessly directed upwards away from the wood. To completely different situations and two completely different abilities to cause damage to injury.


I bought several chunks of some gnarly claro walnut root ball. Honestly, even after taking a plane to it, I could not figure out which way the grain ran so I just picked the smoothest side to start face-planing and wouldn't you know it, I was doing end-grain! It was difficult to shove through but my J/P handled it just fine and I got a good workout. My Tersa knives were pretty shot after doing all this but they are double-sided so a quick flip and I was back in biznitch! :D

And that's were we differ Chris. There's no way I would ever consider putting a root ball thru a jointer. There's just too much risk of rocks, metal, dirt etc embedded and hidden inside a root ball. Not to mention the chance that the wood is unstable and it could very easily disintegrate when it contacts the cutter head... especially with ones hands directly over it! Then again, maybe you're a far braver man than me.

[Chris Padilla]

Not even the same zip code Chris... Let's see; with a planer the wood is trapped between the cutter head and rollers. If something goes bad one of two things have to give, the wood or the machine. On your hand plane you push a blade across the wood. If something goes awry the blade is harmlessly directed upwards away from the wood. To completely different situations and two completely different abilities to cause damage to injury.

My point is that they can both cut end grain.


And that's were we differ Chris. There's no way I would ever consider putting a root ball thru a jointer. There's just too much risk of rocks, metal, dirt etc embedded and hidden inside a root ball. Not to mention the chance that the wood is unstable and it could very easily disintegrate when it contacts the cutter head... especially with ones hands directly over it! Then again, maybe you're a far braver man than me.

Well that is a nice way to say you think I wasn't too smart doing this! ;) Actually, I don't know how "rooty" this thing was but I admit that it did have some dirt pockets in it. I was slicing this stuff up on my bandsaw when a piece broke off and bent my Trimaster blade....