Another Shooting: At My Daughter's Church

[Pat Germain]

So I'm working in the shop this morning when I feel a buzz in my pocket. Since it was my daughter, I answered my phone. My daughter informs me there had just been a shooting at her church. She tells me she wasnt at the church at the time, but her friend was nearby when it happened and wasn't hurt.

All I could think was, 1. Daughter OK; check! 2. Daughter's friend is OK: check! There were few details, but my daughter heard the shooter was a young man who attended the church. I wondered if this had anything to do with the other shooting that happened last night near Denver.

I just learned from news reports that an armed security guard at my daughter's church shot and killed the attacker. While it's quite sad that a church has to have armed security guards, I'm sure glad my daughter's church accepts it and does it. Otherwise, this could have been much worse. My daughter often attends Sunday morning services, but this weekend decided to attend the Saturday service.

The attacker shot three people. One of them just died at the local hospital. Oh, the humanity. :(

[Todd Burch]

Sad. Very sad.

My church teams with armed security.

Todd

[Bruce Page]

I’m very glad your daughter and friend are ok. I don’t know what it is about the holidays that brings out the scum sucking wackos.

[Bryan Berguson]

I'm very glad your daughter is okay. Unfortunately, somebodys isn't. These things are terrible any time but seem that much worse around Christmas. I pray that the faith of the victims families is strong and can pull them through.

Bryan

[Pat Germain]

My daughter's church is gigantic. If she had attended service the morning, I guess the chances that she would have been right there when it happened are pretty slim, but golly, that's still oh so close to home. My church is also large, but I don't know if we have armed security. If we don't, I think it's high time we get it.

My daughter's church has been through a lot this year. Yes, it's the same one which lost their pastor due to a much publicized scandal early in 2007. No matter how bad that was, nobody died. All that scandal stuff seems pretty trivial now.

Thanks for the prayers and well-wishes, everyone.

[Tim A. Mitchell]

First off, glad to hear you and yours are safe.
Second off, Disclaimer: this post does not speak of religion, nor does it flame. It discusses items from the news, and items from this thread..


I don’t know what it is about the holidays that brings out the scum sucking wackos.
Judge not lest ye be judged. The question here is why he did this, not that he himself is flawed. I am curious if he was a member, and perhaps tripped up over something said. The "scandal" that Pat refers to had a lot to do with judging. There was (is?) a lot of hate towards homosexuals being preached by Ted Haggard, only to have his role in it come to an end when the hypocrisy was uncovered. Bottom line is, we do not know why he decided to do what he did.


My daughter's church has been through a lot this year. Yes, it's the same one which lost their pastor due to a much publicized scandal early in 2007. No matter how bad that was, nobody died. All that scandal stuff seems pretty trivial now.

For those not familiar, it is partially being reiterated in the news now:



New Life was founded by the Rev. Ted Haggard, who was fired last year after a former male prostitute alleged he had a three-year cash-for-sex relationship with him. Haggard, then the president of the National Association of Evangelicals, admitted committing undisclosed "sexual immorality."
The New Life Church is one of Colorado's largest, with about 10,000 members.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22171718/

And for those who question what the undisclosed items were, no one could say for sure, but they were in relation to the male prostitute from whom Ted admitted purchasing meth.

[Pat Germain]

My daughter said she heard the shooter was a young man who attended church at New Life. Obviously, this has not been confirmed. Also, the shooter apparently chose a car with a family as a target. Two of the victims were sisters. One has died and the other isn't doing as well as initially thought. Any and all prayers would be appreciated and most helpful.

Currently, there's nothing to suggest this shooting had anything to do with Haggard. I don't want to get into the scandal, but I feel it necessary to point out Haggard did not actually "preach a lot of hate" toward homosexuals, or anyone else. He simply didn't support the lifestyle or gay marriage. The hipocracy lies there.

The police are being pretty tight-lipped about this shooting. Likely, this is because they're trying to determine if it was at all related to the other shooting last night near Denver. There were some reports about possible explosives somewhere and another attacker, but nothing has turned up so far.

[Jon Lanier]

We run anywhere from 75-100 depending on time of year... and so forth. We don't have security and do not plan to have any. I would imagine that the majority of churches would fall into the same line.

[Pat Germain]

I think you're right about that, Jon. The vast majority of America's churches are quite small and likely don't require security. Obviously, New Life, as well as my church, are quite large and some kind of security is essential lest we become targets of thievery and evil.

[David G Baker]

I would never have thought about having to have armed guards at a church. Guess I am still living in the past. Luckily someone thought about it or a lot more damage could have been done.

[Jim Becker]

News reports said the Colorado Springs church put on additional security after the church shooting farther north.

[David G Baker]

I went to the churches web site and read the information that the church gave in a morning press conference. The security guard was a woman and she met the guy as he was headed for the area where all of the people were holding services. With the amount of ammunition he was carrying he could have killed a massive number of people if she hadn't stopped him.

[Pat Germain]

My daughter's roommate was interviewed by ABC news for her story. She was next to the van where the two girls and their dad were shot.

After shooting into the van, the gunman then went into the building where he fired multiple shots, but amazingly did not hit anyone. Then the security guard shot him dead. (The service had actually ended and people were milling about.) He was carrying about 1,000 rounds of ammunition as well as smoke grenades. That security guard obviously prevented a much greater massacre.

It's still not clear why this guy targeted New Life. Apparently, one of the girls he killed recently returned from a mission trip to China, but he chose her and her family at random.

I sometimes served on security detail at my church in Virginia. We weren't armed. Although this church was much smaller than New Life, there were still a lot of cars in the parking lot during service. Since people aren't coming and going during the service, thieves see church parking lots as easy targets. Even with a security patrol, we once had a guy evading police break into a member's car and drive off before we could do anything about it.

[Russ Filtz]

All these shootings should be a wake up call. Most occur where there are large gatherings of people, but most of these places prohibit, either by policy or law, carrying a means of protecting yourself. Don't want to turn this into a 2A debate though, just an observation.

The church was lucky they had hired armed security, otherwise we've seen what could have happened before. Remember, you can't always depend on others for protection. You need to have your own plan.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"

[skip coyne]

All these shootings should be a wake up call. Most occur where there are large gatherings of people, but most of these places prohibit, either by policy or law, carrying a means of protecting yourself. Don't want to turn this into a 2A debate though, just an observation.

do you really think these whack jobs think it out in that much detail ?

[Al Willits]

"""""""
News reports said the Colorado Springs church put on additional security after the church shooting farther north.
""""""""""

Its my understanding that three of the four guards were unarmed and the gal that was had brought her own personal weapon, hard to expect unarmed guards to defend against armed attackers.

Its a different world we live in now, good intentions and PC just don't cut it anymore.

Al

[Phyllis Meyer]

I just saw the security guard on GMA, she is a former police officer and she knew exactly what to do. She prevented many lives from being lost as the shooter had enough ammunition to kill many. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families that lost loved ones.

Too many lives are being lost by these senseless killings! We all have to agree that we think it cannot happen in our town. A town 30 miles away from us (and we are in small town Wisconsin) had a young police officer take the lives of 9. We cannot live in fear, but life is too short, tell your loved ones you love them! Today!

Sincerely,
Phyllis

[Russ Filtz]

do you really think these whack jobs think it out in that much detail ?
I don't think it takes a genius. This guy had a beef with the church, so that's why he went there. Other crazies just go where they can find the most victims.

The Omaha guy went to a mall full of christmas shoppers, he didn't just walk down the street blasting away. Others incidents are similar, schools, churches, malls, etc. These buffoons are cold, calculating, like the Columbine killers. They don't just snap one day and start firing. This church guy was posting on forums for months about wanting to wipe out christians. The Omaha guy went in to check the place out, left, and came back in with the gun!

[Bill Cunningham]

I don't think it takes a genius. This guy had a beef with the church, so that's why he went there. Other crazies just go where they can find the most victims.

The Omaha guy went to a mall full of christmas shoppers, he didn't just walk down the street blasting away. Others incidents are similar, schools, churches, malls, etc. These buffoons are cold, calculating, like the Columbine killers. They don't just snap one day and start firing. This church guy was posting on forums for months about wanting to wipe out christians. The Omaha guy went in to check the place out, left, and came back in with the gun!

Apparently, 'that' mall has now taken down the signs forbidding firearms... Coincidence?

[David Epperson]

All these shootings should be a wake up call. Most occur where there are large gatherings of people, but most of these places prohibit, either by policy or law, carrying a means of protecting yourself. Don't want to turn this into a 2A debate though, just an observation. It's going to become part of that debate anyways. But I agree that this forum is probably not the most appropriate for it.


The church was lucky they had hired armed security, otherwise we've seen what could have happened before. Remember, you can't always depend on others for protection. You need to have your own plan.
Not sure about the "hired" part, from the reports I've read they were volunteers. Which, to me, sounds like members with CCW permits.


"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" Good point to remember



Its my understanding that three of the four guards were unarmed and the gal that was had brought her own personal weapon, hard to expect unarmed guards to defend against armed attackers.

Al
It's come out that two of the other guards aimed weapons at the man but did not fire - apparently counting on the intimidation factor. More evidence that that doesn't work. She supposedly emptied hers, and hit him 2 or 3 times - none critically according to some of the latest.



After shooting into the van, the gunman then went into the building where he fired multiple shots, but amazingly did not hit anyone. Then the security guard shot him dead.
Pat, you are probably closer to this than any of us, but the latest reports say that the man shot himself in the head after his progress was halted by being shot by the woman.

[Pat Germain]

Pat, you are probably closer to this than any of us, but the latest reports say that the man shot himself in the head after his progress was halted by being shot by the woman.

You're right about that, David. That information came out after the autopsy. As I understand it, the woman security guard fired ten rounds from her 9mm Baretta and hit the monster three times. He then shot himself.

Another friend of my daughter said she didn't know what was going on and went to clean up the broken glass. She asked a guy in a trench coat to please move aside so she could get to the glass. When he turned toward her, she saw he had a rifle over his shoulder and he aimed a pistol at her. She said he shot at her three times and missed three times.

To be honest, I'd like my daughter to have a CC permit, but she's only 20. She can't legally carry until her next birthday. For many months, I've been thinking about taking some firearms classes with her. This incident might convince me to do so. It's nearly impossible to assault a woman who's armed with a .45 and knows how to use it.

[Al Willits]

Police are a few minutes away???

Maybe in your world, we run between 30 and 45 minutes here, you depend on them and your in trouble or dead.

Al

[Ron Dunn]

You just don't get it. No wonder the rest of the world shakes its head at America.

Guns are not the answer. MORE guns are DEFINITELY not the answer.

Just think about it. You have more guns per head of population than any other first-world country. And you have more murders and gun-related crimes per head of population.

Do you think that Americans are naturally psychotic killers? Are you genetically defective? Unless you answer "Yes!", the answer should be clear.

Get rid of this mentality that it is right, natural and God's law that you should carry guns, and you'll spend less time mourning those who bear the brunt of this national stupidity.

[David Epperson]

You just don't get it. No wonder the rest of the world shakes its head at America.

Guns are not the answer. MORE guns are DEFINITELY not the answer.

Just think about it. You have more guns per head of population than any other first-world country. And you have more murders and gun-related crimes per head of population.

Do you think that Americans are naturally psychotic killers? Are you genetically defective? Unless you answer "Yes!", the answer should be clear.

Get rid of this mentality that it is right, natural and God's law that you should carry guns, and you'll spend less time mourning those who bear the brunt of this national stupidity.
Not going to rise to the bait. I debate this quite a bit on other forums, this is not the place.

[David G Baker]

David,
I almost did rise to the bait but deleted instead.

[Gary Keedwell]

You just don't get it. No wonder the rest of the world shakes its head at America.

Guns are not the answer. MORE guns are DEFINITELY not the answer.

Just think about it. You have more guns per head of population than any other first-world country. And you have more murders and gun-related crimes per head of population.

Do you think that Americans are naturally psychotic killers? Are you genetically defective? Unless you answer "Yes!", the answer should be clear.

Get rid of this mentality that it is right, natural and God's law that you should carry guns, and you'll spend less time mourning those who bear the brunt of this national stupidity.
Hey Mate...You migrating to the USA are ya? :rolleyes: You must be...to be so much interested:cool:
Gary

[Ron Dunn]

I travel to the USA 2-3 times a year on business. After Papua New Guinea, and perhaps Cambodia, it is the country to which I am most afraid to travel.

[Steve knight]

one of the problems with these shootings in places people are massed is the fame and attention these frootloops get for doing it. the news makes so much out of the shootings to boost their ratings that now it is the desirable way to take yourself out.
hey if I am gonna kill myself lets get on the news doing it.

[Pat Germain]

I think you make a very good point, Steve. TV news shows got spanked hard when they started running video of the Virginia Tech monster. People are getting fed up with the media glamorizing mass murderers.

Ron, I can understand why you'd wonder what's going on in the US. I won't get into a gun control debate, but consider we have hundreds of thousands of violent, hardcore criminals crossing our southern border every year. Ultra-violent gangs from northern Mexico to South America are setting up shop in our country and our politicians can't do anything about it because activists tell them "there are no illegal persons". These domestic shooting rampages are but a very tiny part of the violence.

[David Epperson]

I think you make a very good point, Steve. TV news shows got spanked hard when they started running video of the Virginia Tech monster. People are getting fed up with the media glamorizing mass murderers.
Yeah the bias in the News Media and the Entertainment industry is definitely not helping the situation any by essentially glorifying the irresponsible actions of a few and profiting upon the fear generated. And this fear they generate is only sending more of the fragile people over the edge.


Ron, I can understand why you'd wonder what's going on in the US. I won't get into a gun control debate, but consider we have hundreds of thousands of violent, hardcore criminals crossing our southern border every year. Ultra-violent gangs from northern Mexico to South America are setting up shop in our country and our politicians can't do anything about it because activists tell them "there are no illegal persons". These domestic shooting rampages are but a very tiny part of the violence.
People are simply being pushed beyond their boundaries of what they can handle - from way too many directions. It's not about the tools being used - it's about the underlying reasons that these people feel motivated to act in this way. And that these causes are not being addressed because it seems easier to attack the tools. I see where Great Brittan is now going to ban swords. :eek:

[Dennis Peacock]

Before this goes to far..!!!!!!

Please, PLEASE....let's just express our sympathies and let's keep the discussion away from "debate" on gun control, news media, or politics.

This thread is subject to removal.