Tongue and groove door set

[Rob Blaustein]

I want to make some Mission style (or maybe it's Shaker?) cabinet doors. Nothing raised, just 3/4" rails/stiles and a 1/2" thick plywood panel. So I'd like to get a router bit set and in a previous post a while back Charles M from Freud recommended their 99-036 adjustable set (http://www.freudtools.com/p-155-adjustable-tongue-groove-bit-set.aspx) for this purpose. I was looking into adjustable sets recently and noticed that Amana (http://www.amanatool.com/routerbits/missionstyle-cabinetmaking-55438.html) has one too but it's a lot more expensive. I was just wondering if anyone had experience with these and could comment on ease of use, quality of cut, etc and why the Amana might cost so much more (around $125 vs $70).
--Rob

[Steve Clardy]

I just got a set of the freuds for an upcoming job.
Still in the package, so no helpful advice.:rolleyes:


Amana usually caters to the industrial side.
Never run amana

[Bill Hylton]

Rob,

My reading of the specs for the two sets is that they have slightly different capacities, so you aren't comparing identical products.

The Freud's set cuts a maximum groove width of 3/8", which won't accommodate 1/2" plywood. The Amana set's capacity ranges from 3/16" to 11/16". In addition, that set will cut stock up to 1 1/4" thick. The Freud set only handles stock a skoshe over 1". Those differences may account for the price difference.

But why would you buy either set to make groove-and-stub-tenon joints? You can do with with a 1/4" slot cutter alone. No need to swap bits; you just raise adjust the elevation between the groove cuts and the shoulder cuts.

Rout the panel grooves first. Two passes yield a centered groove, and a 1/4" slotter should approach a clean 1/2"-wide groove in those two passes. Then lower the cutter to cut your stub tenons to fit the groove.

One more question. Why use 1/2" ply with 3/4" rails and stiles? Your shoulders will be just over 1/8" wide; not much meat there. Maybe you should consider 3/8" ply.

Bill

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob,

My reading of the specs for the two sets is that they have slightly different capacities, so you aren't comparing identical products.

The Freud's set cuts a maximum groove width of 3/8", which won't accommodate 1/2" plywood. The Amana set's capacity ranges from 3/16" to 11/16". In addition, that set will cut stock up to 1 1/4" thick. The Freud set only handles stock a skoshe over 1". Those differences may account for the price difference.

But why would you buy either set to make groove-and-stub-tenon joints? You can do with with a 1/4" slot cutter alone. No need to swap bits; you just raise adjust the elevation between the groove cuts and the shoulder cuts.

Rout the panel grooves first. Two passes yield a centered groove, and a 1/4" slotter should approach a clean 1/2"-wide groove in those two passes. Then lower the cutter to cut your stub tenons to fit the groove.

One more question. Why use 1/2" ply with 3/4" rails and stiles? Your shoulders will be just over 1/8" wide; not much meat there. Maybe you should consider 3/8" ply.

Bill

Bill,
Jeez, with talk like that you'd think you wrote a router book or something:D:D. Great book BTW. And thanks for weighing in. In answer to your questions:

First, why 1/2"? I already have 1/2" walnut veneer ply for this and didn't want to buy a sheet of 1/4" since it's pretty pricey. Also, 1/4" seems a bit light to me. I know it's pretty standard to use 1/4" but I've seen a few using 1/2" panels and I like the feel and ruggedness of them more. Also, I didn't make this clear but the plan wasn't to fit a 1/2" ply into the groove, but to make a 1/4" rabbet in the edge of the 1/2" ply (i.e. making a 1/4" tongue) and fit that into a 1/4" groove. I discussed this a bit in a previous post and it was Charles McCracken from Freud who made this suggestion. So it would like something like this:


Rob,

Here's what I meant:

http://charlesandkim.com/ShakerPanel.jpg

But I see what you mean--I don't necessarily need this bit set, just a slot cutter. Which I don't have so would need to get anyway. But I've never done any sort of tongue and groove rail/stile thing and I thought the advantage of the bit set is that it made it easier to ensure that the rails and stiles would fit well together, rather than relying on setting the correct heights of the slot cutter for the stub tenons.
--Rob

[John Grossi]

Rob, Check out www.sommerfeld.com (http://www.sommerfeld.com) before you buy. I just used his raised panel set for the first time yesterday. Excellent cuts and the height matching made it much easier. I am sure he has a tongue and groove set. Also, I phoned Sommerfeld's store with a technical question. They put me on with Marc Sommerfeld who spent ten minutes working out the issue. I would definitely buy again from them. John

[Emmanuel Weber]

I have just used the Amana set today to make some 3/4" drawer faces with 1/4" ply. The set comes with a nice color booklet that describe step by step instruction. The set comes with a big set of shims and an extra wing to make groove for 1/2" plywood. I can't comment on durabilty because I have only milled 24 drawer faces so far but the quality of cut has been excellent so far.

Emmanuel

[John Grossi]

Sorry, wrong website. It is www.sommerfeldtools.com (http://www.sommerfeldtools.com) John

[Alan Turner]

Rob,
Just a thought. Given the style of door joinery shown in your drawing, a tablesaw will work quite well and be a bit faster, and I would think might have less tear-out as well. The 1/4" groove in the stiles can be centered by using a standard blade and running it off of both sides. You may find that your 1/2" ply is a bit less than that in actual thickness, and so you may need to sneak up on the depth of the rebate.

[Charles McCracken]

The Freud set only handles stock a skoshe over 1". Those differences may account for the price difference.

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for pointing out an error in the specs for the 99-036 on our website which stated the carbide height as 1-1/16". It is actually 1-11/16" and will handle stock up to 1-1/4" thick.

And while it is true that the Amana set will cut up to 17/32" wide T&G, it skips the range from 9/32" to 7/16".

[Emmanuel Weber]

I don't think the table saw is faster (at least in my experience), all the cuts can be done in one pass on the router table and you need to change the bit only once if you are organized.
For the tear out on the rail I use a backer board but it sure is a problem inside the groove if you are routing too fast.

You would need multiple cuts on the table saw but it sure can be done and would save some $$$.

Here is a picture of my setup with backer board to minimize tear out.

http://www.festoolownersgroup.com/CoppermineMain/albums/userpics/P1010029.JPG

Emmanuel

[James Phillips]

The table saw IS faster and cleaner for what you want to do. The poster above says a router table only requires one pass. Well a table saw only REQUIRES one pass, the second pass is to guarantee the grove is centered and would be needed on a router table as well. If you want to spend $$ get a good tenon jig for your TS. It will run you about $80

[Emmanuel Weber]

Hi James, when I was refering to multiple passes on the table saw I was more thinking about having to flip the piece to do the stub tenon.
Also it might requires multiple pass to groove the piece to fit undersize plywood (my dado set can be set smaller than a 1/4").

Edit: of course now that I re-read the original post I remember that Rob wants to use 1/2" ply which should cause less problem. In my case I am using 1/4" ply so the router was easier ;-)

Emmanuel

[Jim Becker]

Just a thought. Given the style of door joinery shown in your drawing, a tablesaw will work quite well and be a bit faster, and

Alan beat me to this response...this is typically how I've cut this type of joint. I do go to the router when I want the 15º bevel version on the reveal in front of the flat panel, however. I have a two-piece router setup for that.

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks for the input. I must have seen Norm do this a gazzilion times, but can someone remind me how you do the stub part of the rail tenon (did I say that right?). Do you make a non through cross cut at a groove's depth from the end, with the height of the blade at 1/4", flip it over, repeat the cut, then raise the rail to a vertical position using a tenoning jig (with blade raised to appropriate height of course) to form the tongue?

[Jim Becker]

Rob, stubs are so short (1/4" - 3/8" typically) that you can just set the blade height, make the shoulder cut and then nibble away the waste. If you leave the dado blade on that you used for your groove, it only takes a pass or three to accomplish the task. (You've seen Norm do that a gazillion times, too! :D)

[Jeff Wright]

I have a set of the Amana ogee tongue and groove bits and am very satisfied with the cut, fit and provided instructions. They allowed me to precisely cut grooves for the 1/4 inch ply used for the panels. I cannot comment on extended use and their durability, but will soon be making many doors and will know better then. But their quality is excellent.