Woodworking is so frustrating...

[Jim Fox]

I can't do any of this right.........so it seems. So here I am making some end grain cutting boards, just like the ones on The Wood Whisperer. Mill up my Purple Heart and Maple. Cut them into the appropriate strips. Start gluing up the strips.......but it doesn't seem right (more later). On the way home, stop by the local door/cabinet door shop to have them run the glue ups through their belt sander. Ahhh, looks nice (or so it seems). Come home to start cutting the strips to expose the end grain. First major project since the move, so I get out my framers square, check the miter gauge to the blade (need a new fancy miter gauge), squared up.......nice. Clean up the one end, check with square........crap.......less than 90°.:mad: Ok, check the miter gauge again.....seems square. Run it again........crap, less than 90° again. Although I need a new one, I pulled out the crosscut sled, same thing, less than 90°

<< interruption mode on >>
I had suspected prior to starting today that my saw blade might of been a SMALL tad out of perpendicular to the table. It was, so I adjusted it back to what I assume is 90°. That's why I was wondering why the initial strip glue up was not right.
<< interruption mode off >>

Ok, back to not being able to get 90° with the miter gauge despite squares saying it was. So I took all 3 framing squares, and started comparing the inside 90's to each other. None matched........CRAP. So off to find my old drafting squares from back in the days. Hey, my small framing square was 90° on the inside with my drafting square. Ok, while we are at it, let's check the blade to the table, see if the runners are parallel to the blade. Now I can't find my jig I made prior to my move.........so I try a tape measure. To my eye, it seems pretty good. Let's try with the calipers, nope, off. So I loosen bolts up and tweak things. Ok, so I thought. I check the fence to make sure it's parallel with the blade.......seems fine by tape and calipers.

So I start running the boards through creating 1.25" strips. But the wood starts against the fence, but tends to end away from the fence past the blade. Ok, check fence again.........seems parallel to the tools I use to check. I decide......just run them and let the belt sanded make it flush, as long as one side is flush, it will be flat on the other side once the belt sander is done with it.

Oh, while exposing the end grain through the strip cutting, I bumped a strip and a glue joint failed. REAL GREAT.......I am making quality stuff here. 2 months from now......my intended xmas gifts will fall apart in my family members hands.

So...
Is the blade really 90° to the table?
Is the blade really parallel with the runners?
Is the miter gauge really 90° to the blade?
Is the fence really parallel to the blade?SO FLIPPING FRUSTRATING. Glad I spent all that money on a new 8" jointer and 14" bandsaw with riser.:mad::mad::mad:

[Mike Marcade]

You might invest in a TS-Aligner JR. I went through similar problems to you and it is really versatile in checking all of those setups:

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm

[Gary Keedwell]

My first purchase would be a good machinists square. Spend the extra $bucks and get a good one (or 2 or 3) and use it every day. I use mine after I joint, rip, plane etc.
Gary

[Justin Bukoski]

Jim, sorry to hear this is happening to you too. When I first started woodworking I had similar problems. I thought it was the cheap tools I was using so I bought better ones. That didn't solve the problem so I bought even more expensive ones. I think you get the picture. I finally realized that I needed to get some good setup tools and once I did, boy did my results improve. The setup tools were expensive but they are hands down the best dollars I have ever spent.

Do yourself a favor and get a good dial indicator that rides in the miter slot, an engineering straight edge (big as you can afford) and some machinist squares.

If you know a machinist ask him to come and help you. If you don't, hiring one to help you get setup is money well spent too.

Good luck Jim. Keep at it, its worth it once you get the setup right!

[M Toupin]

Sounds like your one of your problems is machine setup. You don't need to spend a small fortune to get good results. Pick up two decent size 90/45 drafting triangles. They are very accurate and cheap. Second, make yourself a alignment checker out of two scraps of wood and a brass screw like this one
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip030411sn.html

You can set the blade parallel with your miter slot and the fence parallel to the blade for the cost of a brass screw. It's not as fancy as a dial indicator, but it'll get you just as close if you take your time and work at it.

The 90/45 drafting triangles are useful for setting your blade to both 90deg or 45deg which cover 95% of your cuts. Same goes for you're miter gage. The drafting triangles are also useful to check your jointer beds for parallel. Put them back to back, one on each table. any sag or rise in your tables will show up as a gap between the edges. A small drafting triangle is useful for setting up your band saw blade to 90deg or checking the front to back alignment.

While fancy gadgets are nice, you can do some very nice and accurate work with a decent setup on your machine and some inexpensive aids.

Oh, by the way. Toss the framing squares, they're notoriously inaccurate. Even if you get one side of the leg straight, the odds are the other side will be off a mile.

Mike

[Pat Germain]

Oh, by the way. Toss the framing squares, they're notoriously inaccurate. Even if you get one side of the leg straight, the odds are the other side will be off a mile.

Mike

Good to know. I'm glad I spent only a few dollars on mine. And here I though I found a good, inexpensive measuring device. Figures. :rolleyes:

Jim, don't forget that woodworking takes practice. I don't think it matters how good your tools are if you don't have some practice under your belt. I'm learning this myself.

I just finished building three cutting boards and each one was a learning experience. A lot of issues you describe are prevented by just doing it a few times. Pretty soon you're compensating for such issues without even realizing it. For example, after awhile you'll be able to safely feed your stock through the saw while keeping it against the fence. For large boards, I bought Board Buddies to prevent this problem.

[Allen Bookout]

I have this video I think it is well worth the price and can save you money on setup tools and wasted materials: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=16790

Of course there are other places to purchase it but this one just came up first with a Google search.

[Don Bullock]

Sounds like your one of your problems is machine setup. You don't need to spend a small fortune to get good results. Pick up two decent size 90/45 drafting triangles. They are very accurate and cheap. ...Mike

Some of the best bucks I have spent was on two of these. As Mike says, "They are accurate and cheap." That's one thing that I learned by taking a woodworking class at WoodCraft last summer. I'd like to suggest that you take some classes if at all possible. The one I took was fantastic and I ended up with a Shaker table that I built at the end of the class.:D --- It looks like the closest WoodCraft to you is in Grand Rapids. In January/February they have a class titled Setting Up Shop, Introduction To Woodworking Machines and Power Tool Instruction that sound like classes that might help.

[Bill Wyko]

I had a problem with my PM contractor saw. If you tilted the blade to 45 degrees the parallel rods that the arbor wereon would hit the angle iron from my fence and knocked my arbor out of alignment. If you look at my older posts you'll find pics of this problem. It made my blade go out of true by about 3/32nd to 1/8th of an inch. What kind of saw do you have?

[Gary Herrmann]

Pat, don't pitch your framing square. Square it up.

Get a piece of buther paper or something and draw a line using the long leg of your square - twice as long as the leg would be good.

Put the square in the middle of the line with the long leg parallel to line.

Draw a line perpendicular to that line using the short leg.

Flip over the square (keeping the long leg parallel to the drawn line) and draw another line perpendicular to it, again using the short leg.

If the perpendicular lines aren't parallel, your square isn't square.

If they're tending towards each other at the end farthest from the long line at the bottom, your square is more than 90. Take a nail set and a hammer and peen the outside of the square. Put the nail set near the outside corner and whack it with the hammer. Every couple times you do this, repeat the line drawing part until the perpendicular lines are parallel.

If the square is less than 90, you peen the inside corner of the square. First time I did it, it took less than 15 minutes.

Proper machine set up is critical, but accurate measuring tools are too.

And yes, woodworking can be frustrating at times for all of us. ;)

[Jim Fox]

I had a problem with my PM contractor saw. If you tilted the blade to 45 degrees the parallel rods that the arbor wereon would hit the angle iron from my fence and knocked my arbor out of alignment. If you look at my older posts you'll find pics of this problem. It made my blade go out of true by about 3/32nd to 1/8th of an inch. What kind of saw do you have?

I've got a ShopFox

[John Lemke]

Watch out if you assume drafting triangles bought at a big box are any good! My daughter had a high school project to carefully measure everything on the high school grounds in a designated 100 meter by 100 meter section, then draw it up accurately. Project was more than a month long. When she got to the drawing stage, she spent a couple days working very carefully, but finally came to me: "Daddy, these lines that should meet aren't. What am I doing wrong?"

I drew a straight line, struck a perpendicular with her large, nice looking drafting triangle, flipped it over and struck another that should have been coincident but was instead more than a few degrees off. Total crap! I took the blasted thing back to the store and griped lengthily about how nasty it was to sell something like that. I checked others triangles from their stock -- not a single good one. And I'm sure that after they refunded my money, the piece of plastic crud ended up back on display.

[Bob Goldsmith]

It is frustrating. I'm new to woodworking and decided cutting boards would be perfect gifts this year. I'm on my fourth one, and while it's getting better, it ain't near as easy as The Wood Whisperer made it sound. I am a sanding pro now because NOTHING, EVER, EVER comes out flat though I could swear I cut each strip to expose the end-grain to 1.25 inches. :rolleyes:

On the positive-side, I'm no longer afraid of my belt sander now. :)

Bob

[Bob Genovesi]

Jim,

If any of your cutting machines are not properly adjusted this is the result, trust me we've all been there.

For starters, get yourself one of these, a TS Alighner Jr.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/BobbyG53/newtsajunior.jpg

With this you tune the entire saw to the machined miter slot, this is the onle way you'll achieve repeatable results.

The miter square is next. This is the one I have and it's square within 0.003 over 10 inches.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/BobbyG53/Jet-03.jpg

A set of machinist squares are a must. There are expensive ones that can be bought but I've seen sets of 2 or 3, different sizes, for $29.00 and they work great, no need to give away your first born for these.

If you take your time the frustration you're experiencing will cease to exist, however no mater how many times you cut the board it's still too short...:D

[Jim O'Dell]

Boy, the problems we have with woodworking sounds a lot like golf!!! Come to think about it, I haven't played a round of golf since 1976......At least I've stuck with woodworking a little longer! :D:D Jim.

[stacey martin]

I'm having the same problems with mine. The blade to miter slot looks good with my dial calipers. Squared the miter Gage make a cut and its off. Tried to square the square I could get on side on and the other would be off. Bought a new one its better but not dead on. Then I noticed my miter gage has some slop and no adjustment so I'm going to by a Incra miter Gage. I have a freind coming over to look at it and see what he finds He has better set up tools then me see what happens.

Awhile back I couldn't get my blade 90 degrees to the table, it would be fine on one side and not the other. I noticed that when I snugged the hand wheel for the blade angle it was making the top push up. When I feel it hit the stop I no longer snug it up, I lock it right there.

Stacey

[Bob Feeser]

(Note: When using a framers square, oddly enough, the less expensive ones that are stamped out of metal, as in all one piece, are on the average a lot more accurate than ones that require assembly, with a fancy wooden handle. The problem lies in that fact that they have to attach the handle, and things can go wrong in the alignment. On the other hand, a cheapy all metal square, they can afford to get the stamping dead on, because they are going to make so many of them. Checking squares by laying it up against a straight edge, then drawing a 90 degree line, then flipping them over, and drawing another line, and they should both intersect is a good way to check them, even if you are at the store.)

I can tell that you are now approaching a breakthrough in woodworking, where you realize that completely setting up your table saw properly is key to getting any kind of quality work done. It is not hard, it takes a little patience. There are many many excellent references on the proper procedure. Without going into measuring arbor run out, etc. let's look at just the essentials.
Big things. I don't know which model Shop Fox saw you have. If it is a contractors saw, with the motor mounted to the top, instead of the cabinet, put a long straight edge across the top, to make sure you do not have a sway back mule, dipping in the middle. (My old Sears saw circa 1950, cast iron top, has just that problem) I still use it for straight cuts, but it technically poses a kickback danger on long boards, because they are lifted off of the table. I'm getting off on a tangent here, let's get back to the true basics.

Your blade needs to be perfectly paralell to your miter slot. In order to square your blade to the miter slot, you need to loosen the top, and adjust it untii it is. If you are using a contractors saw, then the trunion needs to be loosened instead and adjusted, as illustrated in the earlier post in this thread with the measuring stick made out of wood. The alignment is done by getting a measurement off of the side of the blade, either close to the front or the back of the blade, then spin that blade over a little so you can use the same spot on that blade, to measure how far it is from the miter slot again. Referencing your measurement off of the same spot on the blade, prevents a warped blade causing a bad reference. Since you are using the same spot on the blade for your reference. The jig that is illustrated earlier in this post will do, but I recommend that you get at least a Starret 6" adjustable square. It is so handy, you will use it all of the time, and it makes this job a breeze, and also is usable for squaring your blade to 90 and 45 degrees. They are extremely accurate. (Make sure your miter slot is not farther than 4" or so from one side of your blade, otherwise, get the 12" Starret instead)

2. Ok, so now we have a blade that is paralell to the miter slot. Now it is time to move onto the fence. We use your miter track as a reference, and you adjust your fence to perfectly align with it. Their are a lot of ways of doing this, one of them is by putting a perfectly tight 3/4" piece of wood in the track, and comparing the fit to your fence, front and back.3. Now we can move onto the miter gauge. Using a Starret square, or a cheap stamped framers square that you already checked for alignment as stated above, get your miter gauge, once again, perfectly at a 90 to your miter track.

4. The final setting is to get your blade at a perfect 90 to the flat of the table. Once again the Starret gauge, or a good cheaply stampled framers square, mated up to your blade, riding in between 2 teeth, to get a totally flush measurement, and turn your bevel handle to get it right. If your saw has a bevel lock on the knob, secure it. If not check your blade periodically to make sure it is square.

5. Another factor is how straight is your fence. Some of them, even high end ones, have a slight bow. You need a good straight edge, to check this. Even a few thousandths can cause enough of a difference to make saw teeth show in your cut edge, whereas with it perfectly paralell, with a true fence face, would eliminate that. (Depending on the blade you are using) If your fence is not straight along it's face, you can create a new face, using 3/4 ply or something stable, and shim behind it if neccessary.
One thing I want to mention is that start thinking in .001 of an inch. Roughing in a setting will not do. The advantage of getting it perfectly set, will pay huge dividends in safety, and project quality. Think of a blade that is at an off angle to your fence. While cutting a board, the blade at a slight angle is either pulling the work piece away from your fence, or taking a bigger gulp then the back area of the blade has room for, causing you to force the piece, which is dangerous, and or burning the wood, and or making what precious power the motor has go to waste fighting the angle cut. Once you get your saw perfectly set up, and you see how much better your saw cuts, and how your project goes together without any off angles creating glue up hassles, you will realize it is time well spent.
One last thought is that your blade itself can be bent. By removing it, and placing it on a perfectly flat surface, it should not rock, or show any signs of free play. Flip it over and try the other way as well. I didn't mention this eariler, because we were setting our top using the miter track, and THE SAME SPOT ON THE BLADE, to compensate for the possiblity that it may not be true.
I just covered a lot of territory. If you have any questions, about any part of the setup, you have a whole orchestra of people here at SMC, including myself, who are dying to help you. Just ask.

[Bob Genovesi]

I'm having the same problems with mine. The blade to miter slot looks good with my dial calipers.

Stacey, how are you measuring the blade to the miter slot with dial calipers?


Squared the miter Gage make a cut and its off.

It's probably because it wasn't square.


I tried to square the square I could get on side on and the other would be off.

It's because the blade is not parallel to the miter slot.


Bought a new one its better but not dead on.

No matter what miter gage or how expensive it has to be tuned to "your" saw. Once this is done your cuts will be near perfect.


Then I noticed my miter gage has some slop and no adjustment so I'm going to by a Incra miter Gage.

Great idea! A good miter gage can be adjusted so it's perpendicular to the saw blade


I have a freind coming over to look at it and see what he finds He has better set up tools then me see what happens.

There are different ways to do this but I use a TS-Alighner JR, see my previous post.


Awhile back I couldn't get my blade 90 degrees to the table, it would be fine on one side and not the other.

It's because the blade is not parallel to the miter slot.

If it's a contractors saw then there should be 4 bolts that attach the assembly to the table top. Loosen the 2 closest to the motor and then 1 of the back and just crack the remaining one. The idea is to use the last one as a pivot point. Tap the assembly one way or the other until the blade measures the same distance from the miter slot on both ends. I have a precision ground plate that I mount to the arbor and move my dial indicator back and forth until it's within 0.002".

If it's a cabinet saw the table is adjusted to the blade much like described above.


I noticed that when I snugged the hand wheel for the blade angle it was making the top push up. When I feel it hit the stop I no longer snug it up, I lock it right there.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying but it sounds like somethings binding causing it to twist.


Stacey

Bob

[Scott Kilroy]

I understand where you're coming from. At this point I've wrecked more things then I completed. However I keep at it because when I get something right the feeling is so over the top great and I really think a lot of that is because it's hard.

Some days I walk out of the shop thinking the hard work is like exercise where you get something in return for the effort. Other days it feels more like I'm hitting my head against a wall, which is also hard but has no upside.

On the practical side I recommend start by making stuff for your shop before doing anything else. It will give you a lot of practical experience and you'll end up using all this stuff as your skills improve.

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2007/Main/298

Super Bar and the Master Plate

Everyone has more or less mentioned alignment/set-up tools for your table saw and I thought I'd throw out what I have. Pricey? Yeah, but they make set-up a breeze and they can be used for so many other tools (TS, CMS, RAS, etc.)

Along with these items is a good machinest square, and some straight-edges (short and long).

When you have quality references available to measure against, you will find that your quality of work increases.

Just come back to the shop in a couple of days and start fresh from the beginning and...

...Good Luck!!

[Gary Keedwell]

Assuming that the saw is tuned right I think the biggest problem people have is getting the miter fence at a perfect 90º to the miter slot. I find the best way to acheive this is to lower your blade and bring your rip fence close to your miter gage. Loosen your miter lock and put certified square against the miter fence. Keeping your square firmly against the miter fence ...slide square so it fits snug on the rip fence. When square seems snug against both the rip and miter fence...tighten the miter lock.
Take a board and mark the side that goes against the miter fence. Cross cut the board making sure you have the marked side against the fence. After the cut put your square on the board against the reference mark. Your board should be square ....if your rip fence is square.
Gary

[stacey martin]

Stacey, how are you measuring the blade to the miter slot with dial calipers?
I have the delta miter gauge that came with the saw and it has the clamps on a sliding bar. I clamped it down on the front of the bar that slides in the miter slot.


It's probably because it wasn't square.



It's because the blade is not parallel to the miter slot.

Checking with my dial calipers its dead on. I'm going to try a diffrent method and see if its the same.


No matter what miter gage or how expensive it has to be tuned to "your" saw. Once this is done your cuts will be near perfect.



Great idea! A good miter gage can be adjusted so it's perpendicular to the saw blade



There are different ways to do this but I use a TS-Alighner JR, see my previous post.

This would be a nice tool to have maybe someday down the road.



It's because the blade is not parallel to the miter slot.

If it's a contractors saw then there should be 4 bolts that attach the assembly to the table top. Loosen the 2 closest to the motor and then 1 of the back and just crack the remaining one. The idea is to use the last one as a pivot point. Tap the assembly one way or the other until the blade measures the same distance from the miter slot on both ends. I have a precision ground plate that I mount to the arbor and move my dial indicator back and forth until it's within 0.002".

If it's a cabinet saw the table is adjusted to the blade much like described above.



I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying but it sounds like somethings binding causing it to twist.

When I snug the saw bevel up against it's stop it puts a bow in the table top. I back it off a tiny amount and the top is flat again, and the blade is 90 to the table on both sides of the blade.

Bob

Hope this made scents. I also going to by a machinest square to help me
Stacey

[Bill Bryant]

Hope this made scents. I also going to by a machinest square to help me
Stacey

Since I'm an English teacher I can't help but put in my two cents here. I hope it makes sense to everyone that you make scents in the bathroom. :p

[stacey martin]

Since I'm an English teacher I can't help but put in my two cents here. I hope it makes sense to everyone that you make scents in the bathroom. :p


Now you sound like my wife.
Stacey

[Bill Bryant]

Now you sound like my wife.
Stacey

Sorry about that. I can be impossible to live with. I hope that isn't true of your wife! :D

[Gary Keedwell]

[quote=Bill Bryant;713317]Since I'm an English teacher I c:pan't help but put in my two cents here. I hope it makes sense to everyone that you make scents in the bathroom. [/quote
Because of the season, and I'm feeling rather magnanimous, I will not tell you how I feel about teachers and correcting people's grammar.:)
Gary

[Bill Bryant]

Because of the season, and I'm feeling rather magnanimous, I will not tell you how I feel about teachers and correcting people's grammer.:)
Gary

And for the same reason I won't tell you how to spell grammar or how grammar differs from usage. :p

[glenn bradley]

I feel your pain. I had a cutting board failure as well although most folks seem to just be able to knock them out. I overtightened my clamps and had a few starved glue joints. Learning experience for me as I usually work with soft (cheap) woods and hadn't counted on the density of the harder woods and squeezed the glue right outta the joint.

As to machine setup; the only time I assume everything is square is right after I've checked it. I have also fallen victim to the "what's goin' on here" syndrome only to find I hadn't made sure things were right at the start. So I will echo others here and say; check it even if you "know" it's right". DAMHIKT ;-)

[stacey martin]

Just got done looking my saw over again with a freind who had the right equipment. The blade was the biggest problem (bought last summer hadn't used it until now, no sales slip):mad: Did a little work on the miter gauge and another new blade and its good to go.
Stacey

[Don Bullock]

... Did a little work on the miter gauge and another new blade and its good to go.
Stacey

Great!! Glad to hear that you solved the problem. Enjoy.