SawStop and glue

[Brian Penning]

I'm planning on getting a SawStop in the near future and something occurred to me as I was using my current TS.(General 250)
I didn't cleanup the excess glue very well on a couple of boards and was cutting the boards about 30 mins after I glued them.
Would/could the brake kick activate on wet glue?
Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

[James Phillips]

Glue will not activate the brake, but clean the top if you get any on the iron

[Jeff Raymond]

I'm going to ask you to think twice about buying the SawStop.

It's an expensive proposition. Posted here before about this; my point is this:

The idea with a TS is DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS CLOSE TO THE BLADE. It's really simple. It is my concern that a false sense of security about tools in general comes out of the SawStop mentality. A wood shop is an inherently dangerous place with a whole lot of stuff that can bite you, sting you and cut you if you stop and think about it.

Instead of throwing a pile of dough at a Saw Stop, I would heartly suggest developing a safety discipline in general and either pocket the savings or use your money elsewhere in a shop.

I dunno, maybe I'm old fashioned, but that's 2 cents and you can keep the change.

[David G Baker]

Here we go again!!!!!

[Brian Penning]

I'm going to ask you to think twice about buying the SawStop.

I don't want to go too off-topic from my original post but..I could tell you how I've thought about it not twice but 50 times but it wouldn't really matter.
You see I showed the hotdog video to SWMBO, she looked at me...no, let me rephrase that, she gave me "The LOOK" and said to buy it. I dunno about you but I, for one, don't argue with The LOOK. :)

[Bill White]

This "buy or don't buy" issue about the Saw Stop is makin' me weary. Let's adopt a "to each his own" policy on the subject. H#$l, I rip on a RAS.
I don't have a SS, ain't gonna get a SS, but if my Bud down the street wants one, I'll help him unload the danged thing.
Now I feel better.
Bill

[Don Bullock]

Brian,
Congratulations! I got the same LOOK from SWMBO after showing her the videos and have a SawStop. You won't regret your purchase. It's a fantastic saw. I find that I work safer on it than I did on my old Craftsman and the guard is always on it unless I'm doing a cut where it gets in the way. It's so very to remove and replace.

On your original topic, I see no problems with the glue as long as it's actually dry. Glue is not a conductor. Only the liquid that is in it can conduct electricity. That's what sets off the brake.

[David Giles]

From experience, wet glue won't activate the brake nor will wet pressure treated lumber or the occasional small staple in a pine 2x4. Not that a real woodworker would ever cut these things on a nice tablesaw.:)

[Rich Torino]

Safety issue aside... If one decides to spend the money on a SS are you getting a high quality functioning saw??

[James Phillips]

I'm going to ask you to think twice about buying the SawStop.

It's an expensive proposition. Posted here before about this; my point is this:

The idea with a TS is DO NOT PUT YOUR HANDS CLOSE TO THE BLADE. It's really simple. It is my concern that a false sense of security about tools in general comes out of the SawStop mentality. A wood shop is an inherently dangerous place with a whole lot of stuff that can bite you, sting you and cut you if you stop and think about it.

Instead of throwing a pile of dough at a Saw Stop, I would heartly suggest developing a safety discipline in general and either pocket the savings or use your money elsewhere in a shop.

I dunno, maybe I'm old fashioned, but that's 2 cents and you can keep the change.


Have you used one? I have one and would not be without it. I never think about the brake, I just think "Man, I love this saw"

[Paul Girouard]

From experience, wet glue won't activate the brake nor will wet pressure treated lumber or the occasional small staple in a pine 2x4. Not that a real woodworker would ever cut these things on a nice tablesaw.:)


So how do you know "how wet" the stock can be to not trip it???????????

Just curious , I do not have nor do I plan on buying a S/S saw.

[George Bregar]

This "buy or don't buy" issue about the Saw Stop is makin' me weary. Let's adopt a "to each his own" policy on the subject. H#$l, I rip on a RAS.
I don't have a SS, ain't gonna get a SS, but if my Bud down the street wants one, I'll help him unload the danged thing.
Now I feel better.
Bill Amen. And from what I've read, and seen in person, a very high quality TS.

[John Karam]

Why must it be assumed that if someone purchases a sawstop, they are all of the sudden going to start neglecting personal safety and begin to try free hand cutting?

I think that when it comes down to it, id still be careful because if i make a mistake....it costs me some money and time since i would need a new brake and blade.

Couldn't someone argue that just having a blade guard on the saw makes one neglect personal safety? Essentially the guard and the brake are both attempting to keep the user safe. Id say its like seat belts and air bags for cars. But then again, I once heard that a study found that seat belts and air bags made drivers feel safer and therefore more reckless....hmm haha

In the end, I do agree with Jeff in that do not get a false sense of security. Its always a good idea to assume any safety feature will fail and your own personal choices are most influential line of defense in whether you get hurt or not. Such as with driving, always assume the other driver will do the dumbest thing.

If you can afford the Sawstop, why not? Ive seen it in person and it really is a nice saw regardless of safety features.

[Chris Padilla]

Even without the safety feature, I'd buy the Saw Stop...super nice saw. However, my Griz 1023Z refuses to die so I'll just have to "get by" somehow.... :)

[Richard Dragin]

I was cutting a lot of laminate on a Sawstop. One batch was metalic looking and I wondered if it would be a problem. I tested it by touching a piece to the table and blade and it lit up the warning light so I disabled the brake while cutting that batch.

I can understand people having differing opinions on the saw but to ask someone to reconsider a purchase because of some outdated thinking with no personal experiance is beyond me. Beside the safety features my impression from using the saw is that it is a top quality tool.

[Joe Lopez]

Don,
Where did you get your saw?

[David Giles]

Paul, I wouldn't recommend cutting wet wood with any tablesaw. It's tough on cast iron surfaces. The SS has a bypass mode that allows one to cut metal, wet wood (and presumably fingers) without tripping the blade brake. But forgetting to set the bypass didn't cause the brake to fire, so I conclude that it's not ultra-sensitive to normal PT wood.

Rich, nothing wrong with the saw quality. It's a pleasure to use.

John, I agree. The best safety feature is probably the riving knife for kickback protection. Of course, if you woodwork with dark sunglasses, this is the saw to have!

[Jason Beam]

It pays to understand the things we do and I'm glad this question got asked.

The reason the blade break will trip is if the sensor feels as though a human is in contact with the blade. It does this by using an electrical charge and senses the impedance or resistence on that charge. If it's enough, it thinks a human's there and trips.

I was standing at a show this past year and watched a man just "toss" the hotdog onto the blade instead of pushing it in like they tell you to. The poor woman standing directly in line with the blade was COVERED in hotdog guts and the saw didn't trip. The sales people didn't understand why this happened. They lost at least a dozen sales in that brief second.

The hotdog itself was not enough to cause the sensor to think a human was there. The wet hotdog with your hand on it DOES, of course, because you've just added yourself to the electrical circuit. Wet glue might trip the break IF it provides enough of a change to the charge to make the sensor think it's a human - like if the glue happened to be a nice solid line and you had your thumb sitting in the glue as you slide it into the blade. If the circuit includes you, it's probably gonna trip. But the odds that glue line is wet enough, continuous and touching you is fairly low and I wouldn't worry about it.

But if you're cutting wet glue - I'd be more concerned about your saw blade.

(btw, i don't have one. But I might get THE LOOK one day...)

[Chuck Burns]

Brian,

I would agree with Jeff in that you should yake the various safety precautions Jeff mentions.

However, we live in the real world and excrement occurs. I work for a Fortune 500 company and we deal with pressures in the range of 10,000 to 15,000 PSI all the time. We have a lot of safety people, designated observers on the job and undergo extensive training and retraining. And guess what, we still get people that get hurt and killed.

My solution, what I did with my own dollars, I do as Jeff suggests AND bought a SawStop. I've said it before and I'll say it again; the saw is worth it's high price irregardless of the safety feautures. It's simply a great tool.

Buy the saw; you won't regret it. And if you ever trip it think of the money you save as far as deductible, medical care and lost income.

[Monte Milanuk]

Still looking/planning/saving for a Sawstop or something with at least a riving knife, etc. We'll see what 2008 brings in the way of new models from the other vendors.

Anyway... here's my question: where is the circuitry measuring/sensing across? I understand human in contact (~80% water) w/ saw body/table/fence (all metal) to the blade = trip. I understand why the thrown hot dog mentioned before didn't trip the saw - no electrical path. What I don't get is at least one of the videos I've seen where the 'dog was on a wooden crosscut sled - wood is a pretty good insulator as those things go (in the olden days the 'hot sticks' linemen used for working on energized lines used to be made of wood) - and still tripped the Sawstop mechanism. Come to think of it, I think the users hand was on the hot dog, so I guess we'd still have an electrical path. But what if the saw user is standing on an anti-fatigue (rubber) floor mat, i.e. nominally insulated from the floor and electrical ground? There still might be some capacitive effect that I'm not clueing in on - I'm just trying to picture how this thing senses the presense of flesh and trips (or doesn't).

[Jason Beam]

It's not so much about ground or completing an actual "circuit" so to speak. It's about increasing the impedance or resistence. It's a very small change in the charge, and that's kinda the whole "trick" is that they've developed a gizmo that will sense when the impedance of the thing is modified significantly. You don't have to make a complete circuit to do that, it's just much more subtle without it. It's very similar to those touch lamps - you don't have to be grounded to use those, either.

Incidentally, I don't think the table or fence will cause a trip, but I haven't had THAT close a look at it. It'd seem to me that touching the table or fence would be the cause of many false-positives.

[Fred Voorhees]

Why must it be assumed that if someone purchases a sawstop, they are all of the sudden going to start neglecting personal safety and begin to try free hand cutting?


Yup, that's the first thing that came to my mind also. Shoot man, I seriously doubt that just because someone has a Sawstop, it doesn't mean that they aren't going to mind letting their hand slip into the blade any more less than they did pre-Sawstop. And as someone else posted, it does cost money time and a certain aggravation factor to get back up to speed with the saw after a braking episode. I will most likely be purchasing a new cabinet saw within three months or so, and it won't be a Sawstop, but the sudden lack of safety conciousness with using a Sawstop machine is simply silliness.

[Don Bullock]

Don,
Where did you get your saw?

Joe, I bought my saw from Eagle Tools in Los Angelas (over near Gleadale). Ricky was the sales guy that I bought it from, but Jesse, the owner of the company, was very helpful as well. They gave me a personal demonstration. I got to see the saw I bought, including their spec sheet that they do to check all tolerances on the saw, before making the purchase. Since I bought the mobile stand from them, Jesse had his guys in the back uncrate the saw and place it on the stand for me. since it doesn't come with a pigtail (electrical cord) they installed the one that I took over to them. All this was done at no extra cost. For delivery I needed liftgate service. They arrainged to have the guy that hauls all there equipment to demonstrations and woodworking shows deliver the saw to my garage for $50. When I signed for the saw I noticed that the actual bill was $195. I would highly recommend Eagle Tools and no I don't get any form of "payoff" from them.

[Dave Hale]

Back to the 'wet wood' question.... I was cutting a 10' long piece of 2"X6" cedar (fresh delivery) for framing a trellis SWMBO wanted. The SS kept shutting down (and flashing) around 12 to 14 inches into the cut. Had me baffled. Checked the brake, all looked good. Dig out the manual to see what the flashing was all about, said 'moisture in the wood'. HUH? Pried the cut back a little, stuck my finger in, SOAKING WET!!! Dry on the outside for a 1/2 inch or so, and very, very damp on the inside. Had to finish the cuts in bypass mode.

It was pretty smart to know the difference, I think. Saved me a blade and brake too. Don't know if it always detects the moisture that way or if sometimes a 'trip' happens, but it didn't 'trip' for me.

(step up on soapbox) :rolleyes:
BTW, just my opinion, it's a fantastic saw, just try the height and angle wheels (cranks, whatever they're called) sometime. The dial doesn't move from the front to the back of the saw, so less than .001 of an inch, and that's out of the box! I do a lot with walnut and most of you know, lot's of pent-up tension in walnut. Riving knife stops that cold. The guard is so unobtrusive it stays on except with the crosscut sled. I could go on.....

I finally am willing to have others in the gar....SHOP :), and teach them how to use the tools. Neighbor's 12-year old boy (who's taking cooking classes) made his own cutting board. A friend from church, a lawyer of all things ;), who had never done anything in a shop before, made his own cutting board. His wifey was giving him a hard time for 'hanging out with Dave' but was tickled with the result of our time together. That benefit, getting others 'hooked on wood' is priceless to me.
My wife is not nearly so concerned with me being behind closed doors 'making sawdust' as she used to be. That peace of mind, to her, is worth every penny.
(back off of the soapbox) :D

[Andrew Williams]

great...

I am gone from SMC for a few months and come right back into a SS-bashing thread.

Sometimes I think it's just the same guy over and over and over again trying to get a rise out of people by stirring up things about the SS, with different nicknames.

For once, give it a rest and pay some attention to the OP.

We've heard it all before, way too many times.

[Paul Girouard]

Paul, I wouldn't recommend cutting wet wood with any tablesaw. It's tough on cast iron surfaces. The SS has a bypass mode that allows one to cut metal, wet wood (and presumably fingers) without tripping the blade brake. But forgetting to set the bypass didn't cause the brake to fire, so I conclude that it's not ultra-sensitive to normal PT wood.



Thanks Dave , BUT I've been a carpenter / cabinetmaker for 30 + years , I've , more than likely , cut more "wet" wood on tablesaws than you've cut total wood in your life. I know and understand the nature / dangers of wet, under tension , binding , tension splitting , etc that lumber tends to have.

It's part of the job. I wax all my saw beds with paste wax , yes, when I have to cut wet wood the paste wax needs to be redone. No big deal really. Just like I said part of the job.

I've not kept up with the S/S saw details as I'm not in the market for a new saw, it good to hear you can disable the sensor function when you need to , thanks for the info.


And yes I still have all my fingers and toes , no TS , or significant tool related injuries , knock on wood;) 4 stitchs , total in my life , not bad eh.

[Ken Pywell]

Hi Brian. Your scenario happened to me a couple of months ago. Cutting glue up panel, one little blob was skinned over but not dry. The saw stopped, but did not trip the brake. It basically acted like a circuit breaker and just cut power to the saw. The blade just wound down to a stop. Shut it off- turned it back on and was good to go.

As for the whole safety issue, I am even safer with this saw. I went from a Delta contractor saw w/o a guard and splitter to a saw with a guard, riving knife and the brake. Because of these features, it makes me more aware of what I am doing. The delay in startup assures me that I am not rushing a cut and have time to think about what I need to do. Or maybe I was just unsafe with the old saw.
Either way, just because I have a Sawstop does't mean I can cut blindfolded. Maybe an eye patch but not a blindfold.:D
Ken

[Mike Heidrick]

Ken, buddy, I am also a sawstop owner. What you just described is not normal at all for a sawstop. I would call and talk that over with the techs at sawstop. You need to make sure your saw brake will fire when needed.

We can test the glue or glue bubble question by touching the glue to the saw blade without it running. The light will flash if it would have fired had it been running.

[Ken Pywell]

Mike, I did call them and they confirmed the saw acted properly for the situaton I had described.
Ken

[Terry Teadtke]

I always get a kick out of the Saw Stop debates and the excuses to not need the blade brake safety feature. Words of wisdom like “don’t put you hands close to the blade” and “developing a safety discipline” Great ideas but accidents can and do happen to even the most careful and well trained woodworkers. No one intentionally plans to hurt themselves, it just happens sometimes. I had never considered a Saw Stop because I’ve been woodworking for 40 years without anything more than a sliver in my finger until last year. The while ripping some stock I was distracted for a split second by my neighbor knocking on my window and I end up with my finger in the blade neatly splitting my finger in half from the tip to the first knuckle. At least I didn't cut it off! To this day I still can’t figure out how it happened. The $2700.00 emergency room visit, 27 stitches, and the money I spent on prescription pain killers would have gone a long way towards a new Saw Stop. And I can't imagine what it would have cost me in down time if I made my living woodworking and had to wait 8 weeks to use my hand again.

My point is if you’re planning on purchasing a Saw Stop go ahead. From everything I’ve read as I plan to purchase one , they’re excellent machines as good or better than Powermatic cabinet saws. If you have no intention on purchasing a Saw Stop, fine, just be safe. But don’t try and talk someone out of the safest machine on the market.


Terry

[David Giles]

Paul, it sounds like we agree that the best saw for cutting wet wood has to be the new Steel City granite top saw! I concede to your wet wood experience. Anyone who lives on an island in Washington state has probably seen more water than I have in a lifetime!

[Chris Padilla]

It's not so much about ground or completing an actual "circuit" so to speak. It's about increasing the impedance or resistence. It's a very small change in the charge, and that's kinda the whole "trick" is that they've developed a gizmo that will sense when the impedance of the thing is modified significantly. You don't have to make a complete circuit to do that, it's just much more subtle without it. It's very similar to those touch lamps - you don't have to be grounded to use those, either.

Incidentally, I don't think the table or fence will cause a trip, but I haven't had THAT close a look at it. It'd seem to me that touching the table or fence would be the cause of many false-positives.

Jason, current flows in a loop...there MUST be a return path or a completed circuit or current doesn't flow.

However, in this case, there is a path for current flow between the saw blade and the triggering mechanism. When you touch the saw blade, you change the load the current in this path sees--like you state the impedance changes (it may go up or down or up AND down...but it changes in a very specific way). Mr. Gass has been able to fine tune the exact nature of the change such that the triggering mechanism only fires when it detects that particular change.

The same thing applies to those touch lamps--you are changing the load or impedance and the change is detected and causes a reaction (i.e. turning the lamp on or off).

[Ted Baca]

Hey Brian, if you want a definite answer call 866 SAWSTOP they are great folks and willing help you in any way. I had never thought about the wet glue scenerio, good question. As a SS owner going on one year in about 2 weeks I can only say, I LOVE IT!!!
The debates here are entertaining but as a few have mentioned, it's your decision and money. I applaud your choice. It was tough for me because I set out to spend 1000-1200 and went past that a fair distance. No regrets.
Let us know what SS tells you about the glue.;)

[Andy Pratt]

I've never had it fire on glue, like others here have said, it seems to have a pretty smart program deciding when to fire and when not to. Aside from sawing through metal or some other unlikely foreign body by accident, I wouldn't worry about any unintentional trips.

[Kevin Groenke]

We haven't and any stops due to wet glue and unfortunately it gets cut a lot. We did have a trigger which MAY have been caused by black museum board embedded in an architectural model (apparently there is a fair amount of raw carbon in it), also green treated early on. Apparently the processors (entirely contained within the brake cartridge BTW) have been improved a couple of times since introduction which may explain why the saws STOP for some and shut down rather than stopping for others. First generation cartridges are basically dumber.

I heard from SS tech today that they have an even better processor that they've been testing which should further reduce "false positives". They're sending us a couple to beta-test, so they must be confident that they'll still stop. I hope they figure out a way to differentiate between finger and aluminum soon, I am so sick of miter gauges and jigs setting off brakes.

We've recently had couple of specific users (nobody else for weeks) that got one saw to shut down and we have no idea why. SS is looking into the possibility that the brake is getting interference from certain phones/bluetooth devices, weird.

kg