Calling all box meisters

[Mike Heaney]

Good afternoon everyone,

This is a little request for some design and technique ideas from all of you who specialize in the wonderful world of wooden boxes.

I want to make a few boxes for holiday gifts, and thought I would ask the questions before I start, rather than getting confused half way through. So, I'd love to hear from you on
- designs you have used that have worked well (pics would be great too)
- common mistakes to try and avoid.
- expert techniques that make construction, assembly and finishing easier.

A little background on tools available:-
- Stationary tools- table saw, 6" jointer, 13" planer, Festool circular saw and MFT table, drill press.
- Other power tools- Festool plunge router, fixed router in Incra table and full Incra LS super system fence and templates, jigsaw, and the usual drills, sanders etc, PC dovetail 4212 dovetail jig
- usual assortment of chisels, handsaws etc.

thanks in advance for your help

Mike

[Lance Norris]

I would recommend 2 books, Box Making Basics
http://www.amazon.com/Box-Making-Basics-Design-Technique-Projects/dp/1561581232/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196806019&sr=1-1
and Wood Magazine Making Great Boxes
http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Magazine-Making-Great-Boxes/dp/1402707630/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196806112&sr=1-1
The first will give you many basics in box making, the second will give you design ideas. I have 20 or so books on box making and these 2 are my favorites.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

- common mistakes to try and avoid.
Cutting twice only to find it's still too short.

[Mike Heaney]

thanks for the suggestions. I'm already the owner of Doug Stowe's "Basic Box Making" from Taunton. Some of the things he does on his table saw kind of scare me, so its useful to hear of other box books worth considering- I will check them out.

please keep the advice and pics coming!

thanks

Mike

[Mark Valsi]

Proportions are IMPORTANT !!!!

Don't make the walls or top toooooo thick !!!

Use the best wood you can afford! NO PINE !

NO PIANO HINGES EVER EVER EVER !!!

No more than 3 kinds of wood.

NO PIANO HINGES !!!!

check some web sites for Humidors, you will get some good ideas for boxes there

[Brian Kent]

Mark,
But what do you really think about using piano hinges?

Mike,
I read some advice in one of those box books, that staring at a piece of wood is a great place to start. Another place is trying a joint that looks interesting. I started making boxes to try a dovetail that Frank Klausz did at a woodworking show.

Another advantage to boxes is that they are so light and small, you can get away with trying all kinds of wood and patterns with just butt joints and glue.

If you want to try a stain, you can try it with a couple of sample size packets from home-depot for free.

[Lance Norris]

Mike, I dont see a bandsaw in your list of tools. A bandsaw allows you so much more creativity in box making. Not just to make curved boxes, but for things like making your own veneers and boxes from burls and large chunks of wood. Im not suggesting you run out and buy a bandsaw just to make a couple of boxes for presents, ;) (great idea for a new tool) but a bandsaw opens up a new world of abilities that every shop should have.

[Mike Heaney]

seriously- thanks for the feedback!

Some of my motivations here- I have been building lots of furniture, so have a decent amount of leftover figured maple, figured cherry, walnut and oak- too much to throw, yet not enough for furniture- so boxes seems like a good use. Love playing around with the wood to work out what it "wants" to be, so that feels pretty natural to incorporate into my design work.

I realize my original post sounded machinery heavy- not at all averse to lots of handwork- my planes and chisels often get used in preference to machinery.

Mark- on the proportion comment- I couldn't agree more and I was thinking that 1/2" stock is a good place to start- thoughts on this, for boxes less than 12" on any one side?

Brian- thanks for the tips- will pick up some trial finishes for use with this project (I confess that finishing is my weak point- I seem to take David Marks too literally and end up with Tung Oil on everything, so this will be a good opportunity to experiment!)

Lance- you are right on the bandsaw point. It is the next thing on my shopping list, but not in time for the holiday season. I think I will be getting creative with curves and thin cuts over the next year, in the meantime I will just have to use my planer to get stock thinner, and live with the waste of material. There are many reasons to get a bandsaw and this is just another one (the good news is that I know my wife has started returning the messages on our answerphone from the chaps at Minimax, so she is clearly on board with the idea too!)

Keep the ideas coming- thanks again

Mike

[Gary Breckenridge]

:cool:I would start real SIMPLE.I'd buy some borg pine and some 3/8 plywood and make two really simple tool boxes with brass hinges, handle and latch. Next I'd stain and varnish them. By the time you are finished you will know where you want to go with your next design, wood, hardware and finish. You will answer your own questions as you work. Think ZEN.:cool:

[glenn bradley]

Exaggerated finger joints: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=70971&d=1188662295

Spline miters: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=67093&d=1183089018

[Bill Huber]

I am in NO way a box expert, that is I am not an expert in making boxes in fact I am not an expert in anything, well I am really good a spending money.

I like to see high contrasting woods with GOOD hardware. The hardware is the highest cost of the box to me but it looks so much better then cheap stuff.

The hinges I use were the 95 degree type and were a real job to install. The next ones will have different hinges. I think I will go with something like these, look much easier to install and they really look great.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=16938&filter=hings

I like dovetails and box joints, I think they really look great.

Now if you really want something that is just awesome do inlaid dovetails, they are just so neat looking. Here is a link to Al's tutorial on them.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=68019

Here is a link to my boxes.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66647

[Mike Heaney]

thanks for the comments and ideas- much appreciated.

I am liking the look of those exaggerated finger joints- and note that my one box making book as those in there. And since I have the Incra positioner stuff, I'm sure I should try the double dovetails- I was thinking maple and walnut- sounding sensible?

Does anyone have an opinion on a " practical max" size of lift off lids (those that do not hinge in some way?

Mike

[Lee Schierer]

The most stylish boxes I've seen that are easy to make are the ones made using crown molding . They go together fast and look great. Here's one that I made.http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/cherry%20box%202.jpg
Once you get the saw angled at 45 to get perfect corners you can cut a lot of sides quickly. I dare say you could make 6-8 boxes from differnt moldings in the same time it takes to make one, because the set up takes most of the time.

[Mike Golka]

Mike if you have lots of small piece of wood you may want to try your hand at segmenting, I really isn't that difficult and you get some nice looking designs to use as panels.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66461
The sides for this box were made in 2 steps , glue up the stips, cut that into narrow pieces (30 degree angle) flip every other piece over and gule back together.:D

[Lance Norris]

Here are some pics for ideas for your boxes. The box in the first 2 pics is Red Elm and Cherry. The box in the next 3 pics is Red Elm and Figured Maple. The box in the link below is Spalted Maple. Each has a different lid support or lid action.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=70201

[Lance Norris]

Here are some more ideas. These were all done on the bandsaw, but could be also done on a scroll saw(another new tool idea;)) The first is a simple Walnut box cut from a single piece of thick stock. Slice off the bottom by standing the block on edge, or use a second piece of thin stock and glue on after the inside is cut out and then cut the outside shape. Second, the cat is done the same way except the lid is cut off and then the inside is hollowed out with a forstner bit, or turned with a lathe and faceplate(thats what I did). The turtle is made by cutting the outside shape, then slicing off the sides and then cutting out the head/drawer, then slicing off the sides of that, then cutting out the drawer cavity, and then gluing all the pieces together. I apologize for the crappy wood on the turtle. He was a prototype for some I made from purpleheart and sold, but never took pictures of.

[Jared Cuneo]

A bandsaw for resawing is almost a must in boxmaking since you can normally get a 1/2" (or 3/8") and a 1/4" piece from a rough 4/4 board. You can then use the 1/4" pieces to glue up bottoms or whatever....


When cutting parts for small boxes under a foot or so, I always cut at least one extra piece, and normally I will cut enough pieces for a whole additional box JUST IN CASE :) Unless of course the wood is highly figured (expensive).

Just remember that a box undergoes WAY more scrutiny than furniture, so start with EXTRA flat, square stock.

Oh, and did I mention cutting extra parts :)

Another tip would be to SAND insides prior to cutting joinery and to prefinish the insides before gluing up. Not only will this ease extra glue removal, but it will mask it should you decide to leave it. In addition, if you have squeeze out on miters, don't apply any glue to the VERY inner side of the joint. You should be reinforing miters with keys or splines anyway....and you do not want to be sanding or taking a chisel to the inside of a box after glue up unless its just hitting it steel wool or a light dusting with 400/600 between coats....trust me, it never ends well :)

JC

JC

[Mike Heaney]

Lance and co- great pics and ideas- you have my creative side going overtime now- better make sure I don't try something too hard on the first couple of boxes!

I love the idea of cutting duplicates just in case- harder to do with a 6 foot bookcase, but makes a ton of sense for this kind of work. I spent some time in the shop last night looking at my woodpile to see what was inspiring me. Of course, that got me thinking that I really need some more wood! I am trying to resist that temptation for the moment- I have enough walnut for some highlights/stripes, plenty of highly figured maple (left over from this project: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67551 ), and lots of cherry and oak. I think I'll run up a couple of samples with some poplar, and then jump into the maple/ walnut combination.

thanks for all the ideas and help- keep them coming

best wishes from sunny and snowy Cooperstown

Mike

[Gary McKown]

Lee said: " The most stylish boxes I've seen that are easy to make are the ones made using crown molding."

And I can attest to the Eagle America Boxside router bit being a good alternative when you want to use a wood not available as molding. NOTE: Start with a plank at least 3/4" thick and 1/4" wider than the bit length, which leaves 1/8" or so of uncut surface at the top and bottom. You lose the reference surface against the router table fence if the piece is less than or only as wide as the bit length (DAMHIKT).

[Jeff Mohr]

Here are some pics for ideas for your boxes. The box in the first 2 pics is Red Elm and Cherry. The box in the next 3 pics is Red Elm and Figured Maple. The box in the link below is Spalted Maple. Each has a different lid support or lid action.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=70201

Wow, Lance those are some nice boxes. I got a question for you (or others out there) on the spline miters. How do you cut them? I've seen the various 45 degree jigs out there where you put the box on the sled and run it through the table saw. Is that how you did it? Also, do you glue the box first and then put in the splines?

Thanks for any info and I apologize if this has been covered somewhere before but I was not having any luck with the search function. ;)

[Jeff Mohr]

No one out there can help me? I know I'm a newbie poster but come on...someone has the know how. :)

[Jared Cuneo]

Yes, glue up the miters first. then cut the splines. I do mine on the router table as there is less chance for tearout and the top of most combo saw blades has an alternating top bevel which will not leave a flat bottomed slot....

JC

[Doug Shepard]

I've just glued up the 45's then cut slots across the corners for decorative splines. Dont know that I needed the splines to reinforce it but wanted the look anyway. After the glue dried I trimmed the splines off as close as I dared with the bandsaw then used the belt sander with a 220g to sand the whole side flush. I just used the router table with a 45 sled to run the boxesthrough for the spline slots.
7721677217

[Bill Wyko]

I don't know how to pull pics from an old post but I did a double, double box joint box made of bloodwood and quilted maple. If you look it up You might find it to be a possibility. With your incra it's a breeze.

[Doug Shepard]

I don't know how to pull pics from an old post ...

While viewing the pic, selecy the URL from the browser's address area and copy it into the clipboard. Then paste it into the new post. It wont show up as a pic but a link though.

[Lance Norris]

Wow, Lance those are some nice boxes. I got a question for you (or others out there) on the spline miters. How do you cut them? I've seen the various 45 degree jigs out there where you put the box on the sled and run it through the table saw. Is that how you did it? Also, do you glue the box first and then put in the splines?

I glue up the box with the lid and bottom in place, cut and install the splines, sand the splines and then cut the box open(making the lid) on the table saw.

The splines are cut with a shop made jig. Take a 2x4 and cut a 45. Use the waste, turn it around and you have a perfect 90 degree V. Use a board that rides against the fence and make a handle(I traced a handsaw). ONLY GLUE everything together because you are going to be cutting into this later. Set the distance you want the splines with the jig and fence and cut kerfs on all 4 corners. Move the fence and cut the next spline kerfs. Glue in your splines and after the glue is completely dry(24 hours) trim the excess with a bandsaw or flush cut handsaw. Sand and enjoy. Sounds like a recipe:)

[Mike Heaney]

Well, partly because I have been hard at work on a very complicated (for me) bookcase. But I also tried using my incra to do a trial box using box joints. I discovered that my 1/4" router bit was not quite accurate enough for Incra purposes. So, I have ordered a set of Freud bits specifically for use with the Incra- hoping they will be in my hands my midweek- and I promise to let you know how I get on (and thanks Bill, I have my eye on those double double dovetails!)

regards

Mike

[Bill Wyko]

The main thing is to always reference the same side of your material to the fence. Even if you have to use a pull cut to keep the same side of the wood to the fence. It can be scarry though. Then assemble them with the same sides to each other. I just did some 1/2 blind double doves today. worked great. I'll be posting this piece when I finish this 4 month project. It's an An egyptian style Humidor.

[Jeff Mohr]

Thanks all for the help! Might have to give that a try in the next couple of weeks!