building wood windows

[jud dinsmore]

does anyone have a good source for a "how to guide", or can share their experience? i'm got a renovation project in a historic neighborhood that i'm researching. i got a rough quote of about $600/per window from a national distributor. the project has about 50 windows. if i sign up for it i could build these at my leasure as the whole project is expected to take a year plus. plus all depends on how much time is wasted waiting on approvals from the historical board and building department.

what type of wood and glue? these would be painted with a two over two (upper sash only) grid pattern. is titebond III suitable here? i would guess epoxy would be the best option but it is harder to deal with. i've heard great things about spanish cedar. would cypress work?
coil springs or upgraded block and tackle?
what dimensions for double insulated glass? my initial thought is to use 3/4" spaced glass.
glazing or caulk or other where the glass meets the wood?
anything else i need to consider?


thanks,

jud

[Art Mann]

I don't want to offend, but I think the first thing you should consider is whether you are getting in over your head. Your questions indicate you haven't done this type of work before. I don't think building $30,000 worth of windows is the right kind of job for a first effort.

[Brad Bartley]

Give these two books a shot:

Make Your Own Handcrafted Doors and Windows
http://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Handcrafted-Doors-Windows/dp/0806965444/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196746717&sr=1-2

Windows & Skylights (Best of Fine Homebuilding)
http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Skylights-Best-Fine-Homebuilding/dp/1561581275/ref=pd_sim_b_title_8

[Warren E. Johnson]

Another approch that should be considered is to repair rather than replace. Most windows in historic homes are not that difficult to repair and this approach is the best approach to maintaining the historic features of the structure. While true that it is probably not feasible to install double insulated glass in the existing sash, if properly repaired and caulked, the windows will not be significantly less effecient than a modern replacement.

[Mike Vermeil]

Sometimes you gotta know where to draw the line, and this may be it. It would be extremely difficult to match the quality and durability of a higher-end, factory produced wood window like Anderson, Marvin, Pella, etc. Even if you could match the mechanical quality, you'd never touch the durability of the factory finishes on the vinyl or aluminum exterior clading.

If it were 1 or 2 window, no biggie, but 50? This is one best left to the pros in my opinion.

[Brad Bartley]

Small shop that makes windows & doors for restoration projects..

http://www.woodenwindows.ca/html/sash_replacement.html

[Bill White]

Could you buy them and do the install yourself (as a contractor)?
Bill

["Jason Belous"]

I am going with the group on this one. I do architectural trim work and milling for a living and about 90 percent of my work is restoration work. You are asking the right questions but this is a huge task your embarking on. First 50 windows shop made will take alot of time if you are a one man crew. I run two guys in my shop and I would probably pass this up. I would happily source it out and install and trim. This equals money making. I don't think you could make money on this job if you are trying to low ball a $600 per window offer. Anderson makes a quality wood window with many options that will meet your historical boards needs and come in under $600. Have a rep come and meet with you at the job site and let him put together a window arrangement that will work. Mark up the price for your time and sell to the job. just my opinion although a big one.

[fRED mCnEILL]

My ears always perc up when someone says "you can't do this" or you shouldn't do that"

I don't know price wise about this but I have built, and repaired old windows.

We have a turn of the century house on our property that my daughter wanted to renovate(well-she wanted me to renovate it LOL).But she wanted to keep it as authentic as possible. But she also wanted double paned glass.
I was able to put double glass in all the windows and I had to make a couple of new ones as well. I bought the draught seals from a local wood window manufacture(its also available online) and the windows look authentic as well as have modern draught sealing and double glazing. I did not do multiple lites but could have.

Router bit sets are availalbe to allow you to do this.

It will be a big job but only you can decide if you can handle the size. But as far as building the windows yourself it is easily done by using the right tools.

Fred Mc.

[michael osadchuk]

Small shop that makes windows & doors for restoration projects..

http://www.woodenwindows.ca/html/sash_replacement.html


WOW..... the photograph portfolio of the windows and doors this outfit in the Canadian Maritimes turns out is beautiful; also check out their "resources" pages for some interesting links... nice to see a historic millwork shop apparently thriving
..... thanks for the link

[Ben Hobbs]

I just finished making sashes for 12 nine over six windows for an eigthteenth century house in New Bern, NC. They were made of cypress and made with through tenons. To match the original profile , I had custom cutters of one of the original sash made for my shaper . It took about ten days to build, prime, and glaze. Good luck.
Ben

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I did four of them without ever having made one before. Since you have a year to get them done, I say go for it. If we never tried anything we hadn't done before, we'd be backpeddling in life.

Granted that's a big job to tackle, but it ain't rocket science. You can see how mine turned out on my website. If you want a link, PM me.

[Brad Shipton]

I'm with the others. Pretty huge task, and I do not see how you could compete with $600 for professional ones. Any warranty issues? Garniga sells the shaper cutters for window production, and I have been purchasing various ones for other project types. By the time the smoke clears, if you want speed and repeatability, you could shell out $10k + in cutters. The pro's have six head feed through moulders that whistle stock through at a pace we one manners could not fathom. Add to this, the clamp machines and material handling systems, and it is not possible to compete. If you want to do this for the honor and pride and are not all that concerned about making $$, great, lots of fun.

Not sure if you have looked, but the Woodweb is a great source for this type of project. Plus you can talk to pro's in the factory production shops many times.

[andy brown]

Hi,

Jud, I have to add that I think this is a project you could easily come unstuck over. To think of making the boxes and the sliding sashes without knowing whether they're springs or weights is a bad start. In the States, as over here in England, on historical work you are surely told what to do; what wood to use and if it's authentic they won't want crappy springs. That'll mean sourcing different weights if you're double glazing etc etc.

Apart from all that $600 per window is a bad price- if we are talking a box and a pair of sliding sashes, glazing , fitting in the opening and fixing, priming up, cording and everything else that inevitably crops up. And as for them saying 'Take your time, we've got another 8 months', I don't believe it!! They'll want them all in tomorrow because ther paperhangers are comin in on Friday.

Good Luck anyway!
Andy.

[jud dinsmore]

thanks for the responses. i guess i should elaborate further given my initial lack of details.

the property is a 1920's commercial building with residential apartments upstairs. i have a contract on the building and will be both the buyer and contractor. probably half of the windows are destroyed beyond repair or missing. i was figuring on replacing all of them so they would look the same and i would also gain the energy efficiency of double paned glass (i was planning on getting low-e and argon). the grid pattern is clear on the bottom sash and two-over-two on the upper sash. i was figuring on mounting the grids on top of the glass as to make it easier to construct. my concern here is that 3/4" worth of glass and 3/4" worth of grids on both sides make for a thicker than normal window. i'm also planning non using gaskets and sweeps to further increase the energy efficency. i've also read about different alternatives to corded weights. interesting but expensive stuff. anyways, i'm a professional home builder that does alot of carpentry. i have enough skills to accomplish building these and given my time frame for renovation, i think i've got enough time.

my father's company sells windows to contractors and that initial price was a guestimation from him. i think these would be pellas but i cannot remember for sure. $600 would be the cost of the window only. i'm not sure what the warranties are from wood window manufactures so that will also play into my final decision.

my initial thoughts are to move my tools to the site and build them there. i could use the commercial space to build them in since i only have a one car garage available now. i was figuring on getting a shaper with cutters for mortise and tenons and sticking for the grids. probably a larger planer/jointer since i've got a little 10" inca. i would hope to spend less than $6k for this equipment (althought, i'd like to spend more and probably will).


thanks,

jud

[andy brown]

Hi,
THe outside of your sash is where the glass is and so there will be a rebate for that to go into and that rebate is made deep enough to accept the glass and some method of holding the glass there.; either you will sprig and putty it or use some sort of beading to keep the glass in! Your grids therefore need come out no further than the edge of the rebate and that will be their depth. The same applies to both windows. The inner face of your sashes have a moulding on the timber and your grid will align with that, so if you are crafty with your timber sizing I dont imagine you will need all that much more room than originally. In fact, of course, if you make the grids deeper than the sashes you might find they cannot open! It's always best to use a 'rod' with the sections and plan marked full size to see just how box sashes all go together.

Andy.