Is a jointer really necessary? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Greg McCallister

12-03-2007, 2:17 PM

Gary Keedwell

12-03-2007, 2:51 PM

Yes, you can flatten a board with just a planer. The best way that I know of is to send the board through the planer on a sled. You have to shim under the low spots to stablize the board and prevent it from pushing down. It is time consuming but if you take your time you can do it.
Gary

Rob Will

12-03-2007, 10:04 PM

Gary is right, you can use your planer to flatten a board. There are also some who use a router sled to create a flat surface.

Rob

Rich Engelhardt

12-03-2007, 11:42 PM

Hello,
Shopnotes has a magazine titled "Tools and Jigs".
I bought it a month ago for the plans to make a panel saw.
I also has plans to make a jig for a router used to remove cups and imperfections.

glenn bradley

12-04-2007, 12:59 AM

Another vote on the planer sled. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58735

Bob Genovesi

12-04-2007, 3:12 AM

Paul Gatti

12-04-2007, 3:18 AM

Mike Cutler

12-04-2007, 5:26 AM

I'm with Bob on this one. While it is possible to flatten a board with just a planer, but why go through all that hassle when the cost of a 6" bench-top jointer is so low. Personally I can't see going without one.

IMHO The jointer is one of the 4 must have tools for any shop.

Paul.
The jointer is definitely a tool that needs to become part of a shop eventually, but a 6" jointer is limited in what it can do, and a 12"-16" jointer is incredibly expensive. Even the jump from 6" to 8" is fairly substantial in $$$.

Once the planer sled is made, properly, I would be willing to bet that getting a piece of rough material, wider than the jointe,r planed flat on both sides is faster with a sled.( I have a 15" Jet Planer. A lunchbox planer may be slower)
I have a 6" jointer, but I also use a sled when the material is too wide for the jointer.

Still, I agree with you, a jointer is a fundamental machine in the woodshop. Jointer, Planer, Tablesaw, Bandsaw. My picks for the "must have 4".

Rob Millard

12-04-2007, 6:28 AM

Greg,,

I don’t own a jointer and probably (almost certainly) never will. A 6” machine is very limited as far as face jointing and bed length is concerned and an 8” machine isn’t much better, but cost considerably more, and takes up a lot of space. It may seem odd coming from someone who makes furniture every day, but I’m also a bit afraid of the jointer when used for face jointing, especially some of those 12” plus behemoths I see.

The planer sled is an okay idea, but the router jigs seem like a lot of work and mess for something that could be done quite easily with a plane. Depending on the size stock and amount of material to be removed, I use a scrub plane or a power plane, to flatten one face. That face doesn’t need to be perfectly flat, just flat enough that it won’t rock or distort from the feed rollers, as it goes through the planer. The thinner the board, the more care must be taken in flattening the face.
Rob Millard

Randy Klein

12-04-2007, 6:59 AM

No tool is really necessary, but some are very nice to have. Out of the 4 milling machines (BS, TS, Planer, Jointer) I would say the jointer is the most replaceable tool. As others have said, you can use a planer sled or a scrub plane followed by a planer. I've done the planer sled route and it's a pain, IMO.

With that said, I do have a 6" jointer. But for anything wider, like Rob said, use a scrub plane to knock off the high spots until it doesn't rock, then feed through planer.

Wilbur Pan

12-04-2007, 7:19 AM

Two words: hand planes. ;)

Some more words, just so you all don't think I'm being facetious: If you know how to use hand planes, you can use them to quickly get a rough cut board flat enough so that you can flatten the opposite face in a planer without needing shims.

I'm not talking about the fine finish that you see when people use a Lie Nielsen smoothing plane -- I'm talking about using a hand plane to roughly knock down the high spots. Believe it or not, this takes less time than figuring out how to shim a board.

Then, you can flip the board and flatten the side that you went at with the hand plane.

But I agree that eventually you will want to have a jointer.

Steven Wilson

12-04-2007, 2:30 PM

x2 on using handplanes. Prior to getting a 14" jointer/thickness planer I would use a scrub to knock off high spots followed by a #6 Clifton (don't really need a #7 or #8 for this) to flaten the area left by the scrub and then run that through a lunchbox planer to skip plane the stock. A few interations of that and you end up getting a fairly flat face to use.

Paul Johnstone

12-04-2007, 2:46 PM

I have a real small shop - 12" delta planer and a cheep craftsman 4"joiner in addition to table saw, drill press etc....
Never really use the jointer but was wondering if one can remove cup or flatten a board without a jointer? It is a basement shop also so a big heavy jointer is pretty much out of the question. Can one flatten a board with just a planer?

I got by without a jointer for a long time. but they are nice to have.

Don't get a benchtop jointer though. If you have the money for a basic 6" one, they are not very heavy.

I got a 8" DJ-20 down my basement with help, it can be done.

Mark Mazzo

12-04-2007, 2:56 PM

As already stated, it can be done with a planer sled, a router sled/jig or by using a hand plane prior to that planer.

With respect to using a hand plane to knock of high spots - this just has to be enough to eliminate any rocking of the stock as it goes through the planer. Moreover, this can be minimized by crosscutting your pieces close to finished length first and then knocking those high spots down. By shortening the boards first, you will minimize the amount of cup or twist that you have to correct wit the hand plane.

Having said this, I have a 6" jointer and I think it is a must have tool. I only do the above if I absolutely must keep a wider board without ripping it first and then re-gluing. Most times after re-gluing the joint is almost imperceptible except maybe looking at the end-grain.

glenn bradley

12-04-2007, 3:57 PM

I may be all wet here but how would you sufficiently flatten one side of a rough sawn board, 6 or 8 inches wide, on a surface planer?

I've made jigs to plane thin stock on a surface planer but unless the board of perfectly flat the planer will flatten, plane, and return the board to its previously warped condition.

I know it's theoretically possible on a sled, shimming the board in the low areas but ones life is finite so I'll choose the simpler faster approach, my jointer.

I should have expanded a bit. I'm with Bob and others here. If you've got the cash for an 8" or larger jointer, this is definitly the way to go. My sled is just getting me by till my jointer piggy bank recovers from the thrashing I gave it to buy a BS.

I sold my 6" jointer because for me it was not large enough to do much good beyond edge jointing. Depending on what you build and how you work a 6" may be fine. You can find a boatload of them used from folks like me that are looking to upgrade.

I was just trying to respond to the question "is a jointer really necessary". You can work around it with a sled and mine works great but it is much more involved than simply stepping up to a good jointer and flatteneing a board ;-). I'm saving up for an 8" (or a 12" is possible). If you want to mill your own lumber (and who doesn't?) get yourself a jointer. If money is tight or something more critical is needed right away, you can get by with a sled for quite awhile.

Cliff Rohrabacher

12-04-2007, 5:17 PM

I didn't have a jointer for years and years. I made furniture and guitars with no jointer.

It's really all a question of whether you like using hand planes scrapers and what not. There are many way to skin any particular cat.

Jim Kountz

12-04-2007, 8:18 PM

I personally feel the planer sled is much easier, faster and works just as good as a jointer once you have it built and makes sure it right. I mean its as simple as putting your board in place and running it through the planer once or twice. Whats so hard about that? I think Glens jig is a great tool and it can allow someone with no jointer or a small one to easily flatten wider stock.
Hand planes?? Yeah thats easier than watching a board go through a self feeding machine. NOT! LOL

Jeff Raymond

12-05-2007, 7:23 AM

This has the potential of the bar fight between Ford and Chevvy pickup truck owners.

Part of the deal here is the scale of your shop, how you buy your wood, the amount of work you do and the type of work.

I buy hardwoods at >200bf at a minimum, making furniture. All the wood I buy is cabinet grade without any surfacing. So the job is to make dimensioned wood out of the great big pile of kiln-dried rough lumber. For that job, after being at this for about 20 years more or less, a jointer is an absolute necessity. I have a 12" wide Delta with about 8' of bed, three-phase. Take the lumber, get it flat, get a nice square edge and over to the planer and then get to work.

You know you are flat when the board has suction to the top of the jointer.

The other advantage to this setup is on glue-ups. When you have the 'top' pieces flat, glue 'er up and when dry, then put in in the planer and you have a very nice, slick top for a table, hutch, headboard, what-have-you.

I don't have experience in the smaller operation, but if you can find a used Rockwell/Delta kicking around, they are great for trimming up edges for gluing, nice and square and likely you can find one for $150 or so on CL or nosing around in the classifieds.

The router idea is fine on smaller projects, but if the task is to really flatten, say 50-100 bf of rough lumber at one whack, you're gonna need a jointer.

Ah heck, it's Christmas. SHE got a lot of expensive stuff this year. Make up some big deal story and go get yourself a jointer. You'll like it.

Rick Gifford

12-05-2007, 9:42 AM

Unless I am confused, and I usually am, if you have a jointer especially a large one then you have in effect a planer as well?

I have an 8" jointer but yet to be able to pick up a planer. I plan to when more funds show up (geez Ive bought so much lately momma is getting suspicious! :rolleyes:).

Now I am limited to 8" wide, but I can plane a board down. But I can square stock without the need for any sleds or extra hassle.

I am sure a planer will remove more material, wider boards and be more efficient at its task... but if you have to have only one of the two I would think the jointer is the place to start.

But back to the original question is it necessary? I agree with previous posts above that no is the answer. Look down in the neader's forums. Those boys can do it all with hand tools. I suspect a good hammer and a sharp pocket knife and some could rebuild the Taj Mahal :D LOL! No me, I need four large power tools to build a stick.

Peter Quadarella

12-05-2007, 10:06 AM

A jointer doesn't ensure that opposite sides are parallel, you need a planer for that.

Gary Keedwell

12-05-2007, 10:11 AM

Rick...When I was in the Army I found out that you can actually clean the barracks floor with a tooth brush. You can really get an up close look at the details but it is really time consuming. Since my discharge from the armed forces, I have come to suspect that my Sergeant was not as smart as he kept telling us fellows.
I also suspect that if my Sergeant was a woodworker he might find alternate ways to flatten a board. ( I don't want to go there) .
Whatever way you get one side flat...it sure is nice to put it through the planer-sizer. That baby does 2 things real good. It gets my stock all the exact same thickness and also gets the two faces PARALLEL to each other.
Heck, I have been known to take 3/4" stock and send that through. You can buy 3/4" stock and the boards can vary from .730-.760 from the mill. I usually keep lowering my planer blades until all my boards "clean-up" It is so nice to have all my stock sized the same thickness whether my sergeant approves or not.:D
Gary

Greg McCallister

12-05-2007, 11:53 AM

thanks for the replies guys....

Greg McCallister

12-05-2007, 12:47 PM

Well I think you guys answered my question :confused:
Yes, I do have a small shop and would love to have a big old 8" or better joiner, no room stuffed to gills now and have to move this to do that now, so what do I get rid of then. Table Saw, Router table, benches, tools and more tools (I sure do love my power tools)?
I agree that a joiner would speed up the process of flatening a board but after reading here, I guess this would bring up another question, how often or how regular does a rough sawn (hardwood) board cup?
Is this 80% of the time or more like 10%.
I only really plan on storing a 100bf of anything at one time. Love to woodwork but find that everytime I attempt to build something I need another tool (I did mention that I love power tools, did I not :D?)
Yea the better half is getting a bit frustrated when I say I need this or that to do this....
I think for now I will use a sled (as soon as I can figure out how to build one - anyone have a real good set of plans or link to one? Simpler the better...)
I think someone mentioned this though or something like it - there is more than one way to skin a cat...
Hey, has anyone seen that dang cat? :eek:

Rod Sheridan

12-05-2007, 12:57 PM

Gary Keedwell

12-05-2007, 1:00 PM

Randy Klein

12-05-2007, 1:03 PM

how often or how regular does a rough sawn (hardwood) board cup?
Is this 80% of the time or more like 10%.

I would say 100% of the time, you can be guaranteed that you will not have a flat face.

Since when you start ripping and crosscutting your rough sawn boards to rough dimensions, you are releasing tension which will warp the board slightly. So even if you start off with a flat face, it won't stay that way. Also, after you joint one face, given some time, it may move on you.

Most people will dimension their lumber to a rough size (rip (1/2" wider), crosscut, face joint and thickness (1/4" thicker). Then wait a week so that the board will stabilize. Then do it again to final dimension and start doing your joinery.

Art Mann

12-05-2007, 2:03 PM

I have never built one but have heard them described. Basically it is a flat surface with a cleat on one end to keep the stock on the sled. I was thinking maybe glueing up a couple of sections of MDF and attatching a cleat.
Gary

It is not quite that simple. You have to be able to support the bowed or warped board between the sled and work piece in such a way that the feed rollers do not flatten out the distortion as the piece moves under the knives. In effect, you must maintain the cup or twist. You want to plane away the the defect. Every board you send through the planer will have to be custom shimmed and configured just to accommodate the defects. While it is certainly possible to do this, I don't want to go through that for every cupped piece of lumber I ever use.

John Stevens

12-05-2007, 2:09 PM

Okay, let me throw one or two more considerations into this discussion. :rolleyes:

I own an 8" jointer with a shelix head. When I have to face-plane a board that is close to 8" across, it really takes a good bit of muscle. Maybe the difficulty isn't the amount of force required (I can deadlift twice my body weight), but having to apply the force through the push sticks or similar devices. Whatever the reason, I can't imagine trying to plane wider boards without a power feeder, which adds an extra layer of expense, setup time and maintenance. So when deciding whether to get a bigger jointer and whether to get one that's as wide as your planer vs using a sled, it's one of those things that depends on each woodworker's typical projects, budget and floor area.

On the other hand, it's nice to have a jointer for operations like tapering legs and beveling edges. You can do all those things with other tools, but a small jointer with a shelix head will do it quietly, with zero tearout, and with minimal sanding required.

Comments appreciated--I'm a pretty low-level woodworker and I value the opinions of those with more experience and ability.

Regards,

John

John Stevens

12-05-2007, 2:13 PM

In effect, you must maintain the cup or twist.

Yes, and in regard to cupping, I don't see how a sled like Glenn's would do that, especially as the ratio of width to thickness increases. Seems like hot-gluing shims might work better for boards like that. Glenn or anyone?

Regards,

John

Gary Keedwell

12-05-2007, 2:16 PM

It is not quite that simple. You have to be able to support the bowed or warped board between the sled and work piece in such a way that the feed rollers do not flatten out the distortion as the piece moves under the knives. In effect, you must maintain the cup or twist. You want to plane away the the defect. Every board you send through the planer will have to be custom shimmed and configured just to accommodate the defects. While it is certainly possible to do this, I don't want to go through that for every cupped piece of lumber I ever use.
No kidding....I was explaining how to make a sled:rolleyes: I've explained before that you have to shim to keep the high points from collapsing.:cool::)
Gary

Wilbur Pan

12-05-2007, 3:08 PM

I own an 8" jointer with a shelix head. When I have to face-plane a board that is close to 8" across, it really takes a good bit of muscle. Maybe the difficulty isn't the amount of force required (I can deadlift twice my body weight), but having to apply the force through the push sticks or similar devices. Whatever the reason, I can't imagine trying to plane wider boards without a power feeder, which adds an extra layer of expense, setup time and maintenance.

Thinner cuts and applying wax or something similar to the jointer bed go a long way. I can't deadlift anything near my body weight :( , but I can face plane an 8" board.

Bill Wyko

12-05-2007, 3:26 PM

An INCRA router fence can be used as well if all you need is an edge flatened.

Greg McCallister

12-05-2007, 4:28 PM

Hi Greg, I have a small basement shop in a townhouse. The shop is esentially 17' X 14'.

I have
- large bench
-woodlathe
-shaper 3 HP
-drill press
-15" planer
-6" jointer
-oneida cyclone
-17" bandsaw
-scroll saw

The shop is very carefully organized and all machinery is mobile. I also store about 200 board feet of wood in a floor to ceiling rack.

I am presently looking at replacing the planer and jointer with a Felder or Mini Max combination planer/jointer to replace both machines while gaining floor space, and going from a 6" jointer to a 12" jointer.

I would suggest that you may like to go that route also...........Regards, Rod.

Rod,
I wish I had that much room
Mine is more like a L shaped one were the widest is around 12 foot but the majority is 9 foot by overall length 18 foot with 7 foot ceiling.
I also use the shop for other things, (well at least my wife does) and sometimes when not in use ends up being a storage dump.
I have a small house with an unattached garage. Wife said no way to woodshop in garage (she was not about to scrape windows in the winter - god I love that woman) and well I would have to run gas for furnace and A/C for summer etc...
Face it, I am pretty cheep but more like practical. Woodworking is not my only hobby. I also dabble in stained glass and build computers. and bench space is an optimum.
However, premimum hardwoods at the borg or other suppliers is outragous. Rough sawn is the only real way to go but then there are those added cost. I would love to have a huge planer - joiner combo but its just not feesable. I guess If I did a lot more woodworking I might take the plunge. Hopefully if I live long enough to retire I will have my dream shop.

John Stevens

12-05-2007, 7:34 PM

I can't deadlift anything near my body weight :( , but I can face plane an 8" board.

I guess I should explain that among people who are good at lifting weight, it's not much of an accomplishment to deadlift twice your body weight. You might be surprised at how much you could deadlift if you practiced it twice a week for twelve weeks. Heck, I'm just a skinny middle-aged guy. The best can pick up three times their body weight and jerk it overhead. But I digress.... Maybe I should switch from Renaissance Wax to Pledge.;)

Regards,

John