Don’t do it! Why newbies should NOT start with old planes.

[Danny Thompson]

I recently bought a #4 off eBay for $26, plus $10 shipping, and, so far, wish I had gone with a new Lee Valley instead. Here's why.

From a newbie's perspective, it takes a ton of time and significant funds to get it in good usable shape, and without a good reference piece, how do you know if its good?

I would encourage you to consider the following factors before going down this road:

1. Rust removal. Any old plane you buy will have rust. How will you remove it? Do you have the tools to do electrolysis? If not, you will have to buy a rust removal product. Budget $15-20 for chemicals, steel wool, and a wire brush. 3-4 hours of setup, soaking, labor.

2. Flattening the sole. A flat sole is critical to plane function. I had to buy a granite plate ($30), emery paper (60, 80, 120 grit; $5), automotive sandpaper (120 grit; 2 packs $5) , Norton wet/dry sandpaper (220, 400, 600 grit; $5 each); 20+ hours so far.

3. Blade and chipbreaker. It is likely that your current blade is short and thinner than recommended by most. Replacement blade and chipbreaker ($55 + $10 shipping). Order and wait.

4. Paint. Some people don’t repaint, but if a decent amount of japanning has worn off, you are going to want to remove and replace it in order to prevent rust ($5 Dremel wire wheel [hope you have a Dremel] and $5 Rustoleum. 5 hrs.

4. Potential for missing parts. As I have mentioned in another post, the yoke (part of the depth adjuster) on my plane had been modified by a previous owner, so a the chipbreaker would not seat properly. Luckily, a generous fellow creeker felt pity on me and sent a replacement. The fix cost me nothing, but I lost a good week diagnosing and replacing the faulty component.

Total cost of my #4 rehab:

$ 36 - plane
$ 15 – rust removal
$ 60 – flattening the sole
$ 10 - repainting
$ 65 – replacement blade and chipbreaker
$185

Now, these are rough numbers. You may argue about any particular figure. You may already have or have plans to buy a granite plate, for example. If you are planning to do large number of planes, you can spread the granite plate cost across the bulk of them. On the other hand, you may need more sandpaper, you may have to repair a broken handle, whatever.

For a newbie looking for a good worker to get started with, I argue they are better off going with a known ready-to-use tool.

For example, for roughly the same amount $199, a newbie could buy a brand new Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother with an A1 steel blade. None of the rehab would be required. Simply hone a 38 degree secondary bevel on the blade (a la Derek Cohen) and boom, and you’re set.

If the $ cost isn’t enough to make the difference, what about time? Remember, I’m a hobbyist, so I don’t have all day every day. I have a few hours most weekends. To date, I’ve spent at least 40 hours in research, shopping, and manual labor rehabbing my #4. That is easily 5 weekends, really more! AND THE SOLE STILL ISN'T FLAT!!

Compare that to the 30 minutes it would have taken to get up an running on a new LV. Think of all the wood I could have worked . . .

[Terry Bigelow]

Sorry to hear about your struggle, but I couldn't disagree more. It seems this is always a hot topic of debate. Let me first say I am certainly no expert. My plane collection consists of mostly vintage Stanleys(about 35 planes I guess) and a few Lie Nielsons(with a couple more on the way;)). There is little arguement that a Lie Nielson takes little to no adjustment versus thier vitage counter parts which MAY take much more time. That being said it seems your list is a bit heavy on both time and money it takes to "fettle" an oldie. The two things that stand out to me are the granite and the chipbreaker and blade. First, you really don't have to have a granite plate to flatten a sole. You can use a table saw top or jointer bed with sand paper all the same. Besides that, you can usually find granite scraps from a granite countertop company. I have two sink cut-out pieces and a back splash piece I got for free. Even if you had to pay, they all have "graveyards" with scrap pieces for next to nothing($10?). And the sandpaper I would assume you have on hand anyway, right? I use 120 and 220 and that's it. As for the chipbreaker and blade, a little investigating before your purchase should let you know if there's enough "meat" left on the iron. Personally, I love the Hock iron and chipbreaker but they certainly aren't a neccessity. After all, planes had this set up for how long? If anything you can buy a used blade and c.b. for a few bucks even on fleabay. These two differences add up to about $80-100 less than your figure.
As for time, it usually takes me about 1 or 2 nights after work(4-6 hours) to completely rehab a plane. That includes stripping, cleaning, sanding, flattening, painting and finishing. And I don't buy ones in good shape by any means. Take a look at some of my old posts and you'll see some of my Bedrock rehabs. The price of those drove me to buy ones in REAL bad shape. 20+ hours to flatten a sole seems like an awful long time.
All this being said it really is up to the individual. When I first started I didn't have a budget for a Lie-Nielson so this was my only route. Besides, learning what makes these things tick is important to me. Plus I really enjoy it! Maybe you just got a bum plane? Have you ever tried this with any other planes? If not try it with a different one.

[Mike Henderson]

I have a bunch of older planes that I bought on eBay and I never spent a fraction of what you report. And they work fine for me.

If you want a Lie Nielsen, buy a Lie Nielsen.

Mike

[Lewis Moon]

Wow.....
First off, don't buy rust! Spend the extra cash and buy one with good pictures that has at least 80% japaning...and even if it doesn't, a good coat of wax works wonders.
Second, buy a sweetheart or earlier plane (say..1900 - 1935 or so), in my ramblings they seem to have the truest sole. I also have never had much of an issue flattening the sole: mark it up with a sharpie, run it on a stationary belt sander moving it back and forth across the belt, see where the high spots are and repeat, careful putting it on and taking it off. When you've reached some modicum of flatness re-mark the sole with a sharpie and switch to a piece of MDF with 150 grit spray glued on, be careful to switch sides (left hand, right hand then turn it around and run it backward), then switch directly to 320 grit to knock the edges off. 1.5 hours tops. The sole does not need to be mirror smooth and dead flat to do really good work. God knows my grandad made absolutely beautiful furniture and I'm sure he never even gave the soles of his planes a second thought.
While it is very nice to own a $200 LVLAS (I love mine) you can still spend around $50-75 and get a really nice Stanley which will do you very well.

[Marcus Ward]

I recently bought a #4 off eBay for $26, plus $10 shipping, and, so far, wish I had gone with a new Lee Valley instead. Here's why.

I'm going to have to disagree too, but will rebut to each of your points. Let's take my #4 1/2 I bought last month for 12$


1. Rust removal.

3$ for citric acid soak. Wipe it off when you're done, wire wheel it. Beautiful. Time is free in my calculation. I'm not missing work to work on planes so I don't count it as billable hours. This is a hobby. I do it because it's fun.


2. Flattening the sole.Tablesaw top and some GOOD sandpaper (8$) and the sole is flat in an hour of sweat. If yours is that far off it probably shouldn't have been purchased, OR because you're new at this, you're making it off as you work, or you're trying to get it too flat. There is a point beyond which it's ridiculous to try to flatten it because the variation in the wood is greater than that of the sole.


3. Blade and chipbreaker. If it's got a blade in it and it's got more than half an inch left, it's fine. Worry about a replacement later. THat said, I've never bought one with a stub of a blade left. Maybe i'm lucky. 0$


4. Paint. This is an aesthetic question and entirely optional. 5$ for a can of black epoxy paint. Works great. Spray right over what's there.


4. Potential for missing parts.Do more research and make sure all the parts are there before buying.

Total cost of my rehabs:

$23. I didn't paint it. It works as well as any modern plane.

For you, I think a new plane is probably a better option. I don't have these problems, so I will take all the old ones you don't want. Happily.

Your point is valid for yourself, but I don't think you can say to all newbies not to do it. Sorry.

Lewis, I've got to disagree with you too. I've bought some planes that cleaned up gorgeous after the citric acid that you probably wouldn't have looked twice at. :D

[Clint Jones]

Planes I have sold
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/leonard_bailey/war1.jpg
$55
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/leonard_bailey/h4.jpg
$50
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/leonard_bailey/452.jpg
$85
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff224/leonard_bailey/fiver1.jpg
$50

I could go on and on. Nowhere near the price you quote. All will work right correctly. All are very clean. None have been repainted or had their soles monkeyed with to make them concave or convex (as you probably did when you tried to flatten it). If it took so much time and money to fix them up how could I sell them for as cheap as I do???;) -Clint

[Raney Nelson]

From a newbie's perspective, it takes a ton of time and significant funds to get it in good usable shape, and without a good reference piece, how do you know if its good?

This, I think, is the most valid of your points... until I bought my first LN plane I really did not have a good reference for 'good'. There are other ways to get this though... there are many people around who do very good rehab of older planes that can still be bought for well under the price of a LV/LN plane - and many of these will perform fantastically from the day of receipt.

edit to add: if you would like a recommendation or two for good sources of already-working planes, feel free to PM me.

Also, some f these items you used (granite plate, new blade/chipbreaker) are really not entirely necessary. I agree that if you are going to spend the $80-90 for a new blade/CB combo you may very well be better off jsut buying a new plane. However, flat-sole obsessive posters notwithstanding, there have been at least a couple of generations of extraordinary work done with standard Stanley blades and CBs. I say they work just fine for most purposes.

ALso, many of the purchases you had to make for this are items that anyone doing woodwork for any appreciable period of time will acquire anyway... chalking $15 in sandpaper off as necessary only for this project is not very accurate. If you don't have any sandpaper, I submit that you would have bought some eventually anyway. Also, the next ten plane rehabs you do will require the same tools which you now already own.

Also, please never underestimate the amount you have learned about handplanes from this exercise. The mechanics of how they work, and what is required to make them work well, are lesons that will serve you well, even if you go on to buy a fleet of LN or LV planes.

Personally, I have bought most of my current bench planes new from LV/LN. I did a few rehabs, and decided much as you have that I'd rather just buy new planes, or very trustworthy older ones, from here on out rather than scour ebay for 'fixer uppers'. I do not kid myself that it was more cost-effective, or necessary, though. I did it because I have a tad bit more moeny than time, and do not much enjoy rehabbing planes. Mostly, though, IO just have a 'thing' for LN planes, and this is a large part of why I bought them. This is a hobby, and sometimes aesthetics count for me.


I certainly think that buying new tools is a viable, and completely justifiable position to take if you're financially able to do so. If money is scarcer than time or effort, though, or if you are just a frugal, DIY sort to the core (which many many ww-ers are) then rehabbing old planes can be one of the most satisfying parts of this hobby.

Don't regret what you've done here. If nothing else, you learned an awful lot for what is in the grand scheme of things a relatively small cost...

[Michael Schwartz]

I own planes from Veritas, Lie Nielson, as well as many old stanelys.


The advantages of buying a new plane from LN or LV is that you can have them up and running in about 15 or 20 minuets out of the box. Even Lie Nielsons need minor tuning to work perfectly. That plane will also be better than a stanely will ever be. This is especially true with smoothers or jointers.


The advantages of tuning up an old stanely is that you can have a plane that is 90% as good as a LN or LV for sometimes next to nothing.

I usualy go through about $10 - 20$ worth of consumables. I don't repaint the castings or anything fancy. Some planes flatten out in a few minuets and some take countless hours. Older blades with laminated steel are worth saving, and newer irons are good candidates for replacement.

I have a Lie Nielson iron and chip breaker in my 5 and a Hock iron and chip breaker in my 6. My 3 still has its orriginal Stanley iron which is fine.

If you get a plane for next to nothing at a flea market go for it and tune it up and put some cash into it.

Don't spend $300 on a plane on ebay, a hunrded tuning it, when you can buy a Lie Nielson.

[Garth Keel]

I have Stanleys 3,4,5 & 7 all bought from Sandy Moss (syndass sloot). These are users in good to good+ condition and at reasonable prices 30-50 ea. Buying from a reputable seller directly, who backs up his product, saves me time and effort and a lot of stress. Planes are sent to me and if they are what I expect, then I send the money.

In one case, one a brace, one small internal part was missing. I e-mailed Sandy and a replacement part was sent immediately.

I have some LV planes but as a hobby I enjoy the older Stanley's. Try using a good source and your life will be simpler.:D

[Jack Norfleet]

I bought one of the planes that Clint showed and couldn't be happier. I took it out of the box and made fluffy shaving right away. In fact, I have a request in to Clint for a another model when he finds one.

One comment I agree with is that you should purchase a plane that works correctly so you will know when it doesn't.

Therefore, I recommend that for a first time plane buyer like myself, buying from a reputable plane tuner such as Clint is the way to go. I would love a LN or LV and will probably buy some, but you cannot beat the price/performance of a well tuned vintage plane, if it was tuned by an expert.

Jack

[Dusty Fuller]

I can see Danny's points, but I have a Fulton same-size-as-a-#4 that was free, not too rusted, using the original iron (sharpened, obviously). Its not beautiful (to other people anyway), but it works well for me. There's a little (ok about a turn and a half) of slop in the wheel, but I'm used to it and don't even notice. I can make fluffy's and not so fluffy's. I'd love a LN or a LV, but I've kind of gotten attached to this one. I say be careful what you obtain, and you'll come out cheap enough and also smarter about planes in general. But if you have the means to get a good one right off, there's nothing wrong with that. I just find them a little too "new", like I need to go ahead and bang it on something to get the shock over with. New or old, just enjoy.

Dusty

[JayStPeter]

I agree with the idea, but do think your price is blown up. Some of what you bought is necessary anyway as you'll have to sharpen blades on a new plane also. I have rehabbed a few planes and have more that I bought new.

My take on it is that you should learn to use a working plane first, then rehab. Wether the working plane is new or pre-owned/rehabbed doesn't matter. There is a learning curve for using planes that gets extended significantly if you're spending time and effort trying to figure out if your problems are with the tool or user.

I had a #4 that I bought for $20. I spent a ton of time on it and it still doesn't work as well as others I have. I probably have 20hrs in the sole flattening on that piece of junk. I have a couple other rehab planes that are real nice and work great. Each took less effort than that stupid #4.

I don't buy planes with serious rust, so no electrolysis necessary. But I do have to clean up some surface rust and usually use 600-grit for that. I don't repaint as I don't care what they look like. In general, I spend about 8-10hrs. and around $40 for a new blade on my rehabs. If I charged my consulting rate, I'd definitely be better off with a new LN. Right now, the planes I use are 2 rehabs, 5 new LVs and 1 LN. I'll only rehab another plane if I get an unusually good deal on a Bedrock.

[Danny Thompson]

Good feedback, all. Remember, I am not decrying the merits of rehabbing old planes. My point is that I caution against a NOOB going that way for their first worker plane.

Clint, I remember a post from Zahid or someone naming you as a source, but it was too late for me. Next time I'll know better. Sounds like Sandy may be another.

I have to say that I am 100% in agreement that it SHOULDN'T take this long and I also believe 100% that it DOESN'T take someone who knows what they are doing this long. But for a noob, especially a somewhat isolated one, it can easily take this long.

Take for example my yoke problem. It never entered my mind that the previous owner might have soldered an additional bit onto the yoke to accommodate a thicker blade. I struggled for a couple of hours assembling and disassembling trying to figure out what I had done wrong. Slept on it. Figured some more. Finally, I gave up. I got my camera, took some shots, posted them here, and, thanks to all the kind folks here, learned what the problem was. 1/2-1 weekend lost.

Also take the whole granite slab question. I don't have a jointer or a cast iron tablesaw top--essentially no trusted flat surface. I tried a flat piece of MDF, but no matter how much I sanded, the bottom would not get flat. I had a hollow in front of the mouth and a high spot all the way back on one edge behind the mouth, but, more disturbing, the heel was curved upward. Every posting I have seen says I can ignore the hollow up front, but the heel, especially the edges near the heel, need to be coplaner with the toe's leading edge and mouth.

You have to remember, Noobs spend a lot of time trying to determine whether it is them or the entry-level equipment. Eric Clapton could make incredible music on my nephew's cheap Stratocaster clone, but I need something that can at least get in tune.

Now I know a lot of things can account for the curved heel but the two that came to mind were: 1) maybe I was lifting up on the toe at the end of each stroke, 2) maybe my mdf was not true. I did not have a ready source of granite slab, but had read granite tile would work, so I bought a square (Note I left this out of my cost summary). No luck. I tried emery paper. No luck. I traveled to another town that had a Woodcraft, plane in hand, got their input, and walked out with a known sure-as-you-know-where flat 2"-thick granite square and instructions to keep sanding.

Mike, I really appreciate your perspective and sage advice. And I couldn't agree more that, if you are going for a stable of planes, this is probably the way to go. Particularly if you can get some decent tutelage.

Marcus,
1) Citric acid soak and a wire wheel are pretty close to the $15 I calculated, maybe 5 less. I also didn't charge for time, but I should add in time for marriage counseling ("What have you been doing out there all weekend?")

2) I can say, definitively, that I have spent well over 12 hours sanding on various types of quality sandpaper and emery paper trying to find what works (btw, best so far, 120 grit auto sandpaper, purple). I think you are right, maybe this plane shouldn't have been bought. But how do you know that when you buy off the 'bay and its your first plane ever? Or, then again, maybe it's just because I am new and my technique is flawed. I am willing to take full blame for that. But I would say this is likely with many noobs.

3) I bought a Type 11 (1910-1918?) thinking I was in good shape with a reliable blade. Sadly, there is only about 1/2" of usable blade left. The plane looked long in the pix. Little did I know that there was a slot all the way down behind the chipbreaker. I could "get by" for now, but for how long. And do I want to struggle with a thin blade? Everything I read says replace it.

4) Painting is optional. Tru dat. (-$10 if you don't care)

5) Do more research? I asked the seller if there had been any damage or repairs. The seller said, No. I had already removed the rust and done some initial sanding by the time I understood the problem. That's the kind of situation a noob gets into on the 'bay.

Other points:

- If I weren't already a waterstones guy, I could use the slab and a healthy supply of sandpaper for ScarySharp.

- I do think I learned a lot during this rehab. It was fun in a way. But at the end of the day, I have no workproduct to show for it.


Of course my experience is not universal, and this can not be a universal recommendation. Some people would have stopped at the $36 and been done with it. On the other hand, it is easy for a noob to fall under the spell of all this ebay/rehab talk. We aspire to be capable neanders such as the fine, helpful, and friendly commenters above. I truly look up to you guys. But I have to remember that I am not there yet; not nearly.

Rehabbing old planes can be a thrill, I am sure, but I want other noobs to realize what they are in for. It could go either way, and sometimes you are just better off buying what's known. Especially if your desire is to get to the wood.

True Confessions Time:

I haven't actually bought the replacement blade and breaker yet. At this point, I am holding off another day. If I don't get the sole flat, I'm done with it. It goes on display (After all, it is almost $100 years old.). If I do get it flat, then I'll replace and move on.

[Marcus Ward]

I also didn't charge for time, but I should add in time for marriage counseling ("What have you been doing out there all weekend?")

All good points. I think perhaps your view has been tainted because you ended up with a horror story. My first ebay plane was a killer #7 that needed very little help. On the citric acid bath, you don't have to babysit it. I just plunk em in and do something else - and my wife is usually in the woodshop with me, every night. She carves and turns so no marriage counseling needed except when we both want to use the same tool.

As for the iron length, you can tell from the pics. It should stick up past the top of the frog and cover some or all of the lateral lever. But noobs wouldn't know that so you can't be faulted for missing that one.


If I don't get the sole flat, I'm done with it. It goes on display (After all, it is almost $100 years old.). If I do get it flat, then I'll replace and move on.

If you can't get it flat I'll volunteer to try. I use a big belt sander now when I want to flatten them. Takes a minute or two.

M

[Raney Nelson]

Danny,

I just want to say that I also started using planes in isolation. I had no one to demonstrate them face-to-face until I'd been at it at least a year. The first few months, which I tend to 'blank out', were VERY frustrating. Full of the sort of experiences you are talking about, not knowing if it was my inadequate sharpening, blade set wrong, and on and on. In hindsight, the majority of the problem was purely the fact that I was at the steep steep first climb of the learning curve. At some point, after not TOO long, I started to notice that I was getting some pretty decent planed surfaces... then I got a couple more planes, and lo and behold I actually felt comfortable setting them up and they worked pretty much straight off.

Unfortunately, like many things in life, there is only so much that can be done to shorten this period. There is a lot going on - new ways of looking at wood, and at tools, not to mention 'muscle memory' - all of which is at first very overwhelming, but through all of that the process is doing its work. Even though this 'experiment' probably seems like a failure, and unnecessary to you I doubt that it is so.

The idea that you learned a lot doing this is not just some cheesy new-age feel good justification to make you feel better. It's probably quite true, and in a few months you'll look back at this with a very different attitude.

In the meantime, get a LV plane, or get a plane from Clint, Sandy, WaltQ, or one of the others who's around these boards. Let them know it's your first experience with a 'tuned' plane and they will take very good care of you.




Besides - After the learning curve, comes the slippery slope. If you think this hurt your wallet, hang on tight :)

[Zahid Naqvi]

I can only add my perspective. My first plane purchase was a Bucks Brothers #3 equivalent from HD. How's that for reference :eek:

From here I went straight to a Stanley #5 from eBay. It was certainly a fixer upper. I used electrolysis, probably spent $5-10 on consumables (washing soda and a tupperware box). I had never restored any tool up to that point, so I certainly wasn't very efficient and didn't have any needed tools. But the sandpaper and other things I purchased we reused (and some are still being used 4 yrs later). I used a glass plate on an MDF board.

Any way, to cut the long story short. I jumped head first down the slope without knowing what I was getting into or any prior knowledge of the techniques to be used. I think that was probably the best project I did as far as learning is concerned. If I had purchased a high end plane like a LN ot LV I would have never learned the functionality of: the frog and it's orientation, why a chipbreaker is as important to tune as the blade, etc.

I think a new comer should certainly buy an old Stanley and try to refurb it. But make sure you consult and read on-line info (as there is tons of it on the Internet) on rehabbing old planes. There are many cost effective alternatives which are as good as any. For example go to a local glass shop and ask them if the have a cut off they are willing to sell you for bargain price, they always have some lying around. Use citric acid instead of electrolysis. No need to repaint the plane, just clean it up real good with hand sanding and put on a coat of shellac, it won't be pretty but it will stay rust free. Go to Harbor Freight and buy belt sander belts for sole flattening, no need to go below 220 grit, just wax the sole after 220.

[Danny Thompson]

Belt sanding.

I have to admit, I took my #4 over to the oscillating belt sander, but got scared off right away. The plane is slightly longer than the flat part of the belt, and it seemed to me the spindles protruded slightly. I was certain I would ruin it. Maybe I should rethink that.

[Marcus Ward]

Stick a hunk of glass under the belt with doublestick tape to ride the plane on. I've seen it done by other people. I just slide the plane back and forth but I seem to have a really good sense for keeping it level.

Also if you have an older belt that is kind of worn, like a 120 that is almost used up, it cuts so slow you can take your time and make sure it's perfect.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Heck no, don't even let the Oscilating sander touch a plane. :eek:

What I meant was buy the cheapest possible beltsander belt of about 150 grit (I can get a 3 pack for abour $5), cut it down the joint (there is always a place where they join the belt end-to-end) and stick it on an MDF board to give you a long flat surface for flattening a sole.

[Dave Anderson NH]

If you are new to the world of hand tools.... find a mentor. Now I'm going to emphasize my point FIND A MENTOR. Yes, the shouting was intentional. It's that important to your success.

I seriously doubt that there are very few places city, suburban, or rural where after a decent amount of looking on the various forums, dropping by the woodworking tools store and asking, or checking the listing of various clubs, that anyone can't find a willing instructor. If folks would devote 1/4 as much time trying to line up "live in person" assistance as they do fettling and rehabbing on their own, they would be better off. I'm not trying to pick on you Danny or on anyone else. I've been through this back before there was a www to make life easier for us hand tool folks. The level of my personal skills, my comfort level with trying something new, and my overall satisfaction with woodworking as a hobby grew exponentially after finding assistance through our NH guild.

There are plenty of ways other than clubs though. All of the most successful ones share one common trait, a visible model of someone doing it right. Live and in person is best because it's interactive and you get immediate feedback and correction if you go off course. Videos can partially substitute for this if you play them over and over and analyze what is being done and equally importantly... not done. Ask on every forum you can find if someone is willing to mentor you...even once. Ask if your local shop or a school gives classes- adult ed courses are both great and inexpensive. Above all persevere in your search for a mentor, a mentor will cut your time wasted by a power of 10.

[harry strasil]

a few minutes touching up the blade. a very light pass over the jointer and woodies are ready to go to work.

[Marcus Ward]

Heck no, don't even let the Oscilating sander touch a plane. :eek:

Yeah, turn the oscillation off. I have run planes on belt sanders before to straighten them up, works great. Different strokes.

[Mark Stutz]

Dave is absolutely right on the money. I've jokingly blamed Dave for pushing me down this slope! My first plane was a modern Stanley....now a doorstop! A little over 4 years ago, after delivering my son to college in Boston, Dave graciously agreed to a shop visit. WOW:D:eek::rolleyes::D So that's what a hand plane is capable of doing! I was hooked and slid rapidly. Four years, several LFOD and other auctions, tailgates, flea markets later, I am almost completely Neander. But without a little "mentoring" I would have had no idea what to shoot for when I rehabed my first plane...a Type 20:eek:#5. With a Hock blade it can take a .001 shaving, although I rarely use it for smothing. The short of it...find someone, even if not much more experienced, a learn together if that what it takes. Good luck.

Mark

[Eddie Darby]

I run into this type of problem all the time.

In golf, the debate is this, should a new golfer have expensive clubs. The answer is No! They should though, have clubs that Fit and Match them, be they expensive or cheap, so that they can do the job right.

The students that start off with even just one properly matched club, progress much faster than those with a whole set of mismatched ones.

So I would start a new woodworker off with top-end planes! A straight forward traditional plane that has no special goof-proof features, or flaws to have to overcome, because just like in golf, the challenge of the game is hard enough in itself, the last thing you need is for them to also have to do battle with the wrong equipment, so it is for the beginner woodworker.

Yeah I know that this will get some peoples dander up, and that is not my goal here, so I'll apologize right now!

A beginner will never be able to appreciate the subtle things that make a great plane, a great plane, such as the attention to the fact that you don't need little set screws to snug the blade by the mouth of the plane, because the blade and plane are already the right size to start with, or a screw with little to no back-lash.

But you know these gimmicks sell planes to people who don't know any better, and if you want to make $$$$ then that is what you have to do.
So does the fact that so and so plays with these golf clubs, so my kid has to have them.

The feel and balance, the weight and responsiveness of the plane, with a good sized chunk of metal that is properly sharpened, being finely adjusted with a screw mechanism that has next to no back-lash in it's workings. All the while working a plane with a truly flat bottom that makes the wood yield to it's force, is what we all enjoy about using hand tools.

Better to own one plane that truly performs well, than a whole bunch that are average or worse.

If you want easy success, then buy an motorized tool that almost guarantees you success right in the warranty. Where's the joy in that! But hey maybe I am going to far here and need to apply a little restraint.

I do own motorized tools, but I only work with them, while with my hand tools, I enjoy working with them. As for the end result, I sell the things that I make with motorized tools, but I admire the things I make with hand tools.

Odd thing about golf is that the Pros kids usually turn out to be really good golfers, I wonder why that is?

The Better the Tool the Better the Job .... and the more enjoyable the experience, if it's the right tool.

[Mark Stutz]

Eddie, to take your golf analogy one step further, even more important than appropriate clubs...LESSONS. Way too many people start to play golf (or tennis, or bowling,or _________ (fill in the blank)), by simply starting out. Frustrations soon sets in because they do not know the basics, and many soon give up. My kids both took some bowling lessons in a kids after school league. They had fun, learned the basics, and still enjoy bowling and can do it pretty well. I have no clue, don't enjoy it...probably because I don't know the basics.
Long story short...get a little basic instruction. Not to say that you can't be self taught...just ask Lee Trevino or Chi Chi Rodriguez...but it makes it a lot easier.

Mark

[Bart Leetch]

Gee I've had so much fun sharpening my planes & now I am reading and asking questions on how to use them.

I really like the way the old tools look & feel & they seem to work just as described when ever I read about them or hear about them.

I wouldn't mind having a nice shiny new LN or LV . But for the amount I have in what you see in the picture I wouldn't have had half the fun. Or half the tools.

I have around $500 over several years in what you see in the picture. Are they perfect no but they are reasonably good users. I can set a square on the bottom of each plane & they are either absolutely square & flat are so close it doesn't matter. I've never had to flatten a sole of any plane that I have accept a wooden one & I expected that & it only took a very few minutes.

I'll tell you one secret don't buy one of these tools unless you know the dealer & know they only sell good quality used tools or unless you can hold them in your hands & examine them.

Don't buy them sight unseen.

[Danny Thompson]

Great tips, one and all.

Harry, if I only knew what to look for in a woodie . . . and owned a jointer.

Bart, my mother always said it was rude to brag. Consider me green.

Dave, good advice about the mentor, I've tried 2 so far: one has all Lee-Nielsen's and the other only has time for potential employees. I guess I better keep looking.

I would be willing to add an asterisk about buying from dealers you know and trust, but how do you know and trust one before you buy your first plane? Reputation? I guess Clint is the leading candidate at this point.

Okay, can we all agree on this:

Feral Noobs--i.e., those raised in the woodworking wilderness--should NOT start with old planes!

[Wilbur Pan]

Just to emphasize what has been said above, when I started learning how to do woodworking about 9 months ago, the first thing I did was to take a class on the basics of woodworking, which included a session on sharpening plane blades and chisels. I also have the benefit of having a neighbor that knows how to use planes very well, so that was a reference point.

My first plane was a Stanley #4 that I was able to whip into shape pretty quickly. Since then, I've seen many people ask, "Which plane should I buy first?" My answer is usually, "Take a class -- then it won't matter so much."

Now, finding a class or someone to teach you is not always easy. In case you don't know about this group already, I found this on google:

Greater Memphis Woodworker’s Club
8078 Goringwood Lane
Memphis, TN 38138

They seem to meet at The Woodwork Shop every month. (http://www.thewoodworkshopinc.com) The Woodwork Shop also seems to offer classes.

[Danny Thompson]

Wilbur. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look into it.

[George Sanders]

I found a KeenKutter 5c which is a bedrock clone at a pawnshop for $4. Cleaned and sharpened it according to info found on the web. Works great. I also had to buy a Stanley aluminum plane to get the Stanley 9 1/2 that I wanted. I take the bad to get to the good.
I am alone except for the learned advise of the web based mentors here and elsewhere. I have had good luck at auctions where power tools are the main draw. Not many neanders seem to show up.
I have many power tools and I have made some very nice pieces with them, but there is something primal about using hand tools. I feel closer to the wood and what I am doing to it.
It is an eclectic collection of planes, chisels, saws, and accessories. I couldn't possibly replace everything with new Lie-Nielson quality tools. This is a hobby for me and I have had success with reconditioning even rusty tools. I haven't ever flattened a sole and from the results I'm getting I don't think I need to.
I have had some failures too but they haven't deterred me at all. I truly enjoy cleaning up, sharpening and using old tools.

[Randal Stevenson]

I started out like a lot of others. Inherited tools.

I went to find out how to sharpen and use my grandfathers plane (a defiance #5) and found it wasn't worth the effort (according to what I read). I kinda ignored that, and learned how to sharpen the blade, and read about people using them as scrub planes.
I kept my eye out at garage sales (after watching the bay and seeing things go for next to nothing to :eek::eek::eek:), and stumbled onto a Craftsman (Sargent) #4, a Stanley Bailey #5 and #7, for $25. All had paint/stain and surface rust (no pitting), I could check for cracks, amount of blade, etc. I cleaned all of them, but only have tuned the #5 (because I could kinda compare it to the Defiance). I picked up a LN 40 1/2 scrub and used that, and realize, I still have a ways to go (no mentor, just me and the public library). I have thought if I can find another of the ones I have, I would like to send it to someone like Clint Jones or Rarebear (woodnet), so I have something to compare to, learn from.

Even buying a new plane, is going to be a problem, if I can't keep it in shape.

That is my experience.

[Kevin French]

Danny I can't disagree with you MORE

1st of all you need to pro-rate the price of that granite over all the planes you'll flatten and all the blades you will sharpen on it.

2nd You didn't use ALL the emery cloth and sand paper on that one plane, if you did, YOU GOT A BAD PLANE.

3rd 20 hrs????? I say again, YOU GOT A BAD PLANE.

I have bought A LOT of the dogs on ebay and I have never spent that much money/time on any one of them.

I don't and the more I read posts like this will NEVER own a LN/LV/NEW plane.

The old planes made far better pieces then I will ever make, so I think I'll keep using them. Will add new steel at some point but I am very happy with the old ones.

4th never paid $26 for a #4, I did pay $25 for a #7 once.

[Danny Thompson]

Kevin,

1. I understand your point about the prorating. It would apply if I had in mind to build a stable of planes. Truth is, I'm just trying to get a good worker or two so I can get some work done. I can prorate later if I find I can make a go of it, but for now, I'm just getting started. And again, I already have the waterstones for sharpening. If you are a scarysharper, your point applies.

2. Yep, I did, tons of sandpaper, and I need more to finish the job. This is my point.

There are so many different recommendations that I tried along the way. Emery cloth, sandpaper; dry sandpaper, wet/dry sandpaper drizzled with water, with WD40, with 3-in-1 oil;, use water to hold down the paper, use painters tape, adhesive spray; mdf, melamine, jointer, table saw, float glass, granite tile, granite scraps, granite slab. It goes on and on and on. When you are a noob and the system you've chosen from the many advised isn't working, you try another, and then another. Is it your technique? So it's watch the video clips again, read the posts, post your pics on SMC, plan a side-trip on vacation to a Woodcraft, ask for advice, buy more product, try again. It can all get out of hand.

And before you know it you have burned through a significant amount of time and money.

Bad plane, bad technique, bad sandpaper, bad water, I don't know. Doesn't matter. Any which way you slice it I would have been better off with a tool in better condition, and so would a lot of other noobs.

3. I say again, maybe so.

I can't see how this convinces you to never buy new, but hey, more power to you. You seem to know what you are doing. Consider me jealous.

4. About the price. Again, consider me jealous. Memphis simply doesn't have the wealth of old tools that you New Englanders seem to enjoy.

My point is, it isn't always as easy and straightforward as the experienced neanders make it sound. For a noob, it can be a total pain and sabotage a season of work. I never heard this alternative point of view, and thought other newcomers might need to.

[Mike Cutler]

Danny

Don't be dismayed.
It does cost money to rehab an old plane. If you start from ground zero like you did, you see those costs more readily. While everyone may not have spent as much as you did. They should do a qiuck mental calc on what it would cost to replace all of their sharpening equipment that was acquired over time. Everything is expensive these days.

If I add my stuff up it would look something like this;

Bench grinder
Oil Stones
Water Stones
Lapping compunds
Sandpaper/steel wool/ scotcbrite pads
Granite plate
Assorted files( Not useful for woodworking, just metal work)
Assorted degreaser, rust removal products, Phosphoric acid.

So yeah, To rehab that "first plane", and get that first shaving, would be sort of expensive as you found out. Most folks acquire this stuff over time,
and the cost is spread out amongst various duties that each perform. It still cost $$$ to rehab any tool, or machine though.

Don't give up on the used market. I have an assortment of Flea Market planes that I had long before my first LN plane. One day that LN plane will need to be retuned, and the cost of learning on flea market specials will be worth the $$$ when I have to work on the LN.

[Michael McCoy]

This has been an interesting thread for me. A lot of the problems that newbies have (at least this one) is not knowing enough about refurbing/maintaining a decent plane or even a bad one. Until a year ago, my experience with handplanes was just using my grandfathers a little over 40 years ago and they were sweet. A couple of years ago, I decided I wanted to get something besides my BORG cheapos and got a couple of the Woodcraft India made Groz planes. I couldn't get them to do anything but chatter and tear out wood, so they started to collect dust. Then I started browsing this forum and got myself a LN 4 1/2 jack plane a couple of months ago along with a lot of reading material about sharpening and maintenance. Those Groz planes will never be near the LN but they are now acceptable and all for the cost of a piece of glass, a little sand paper and cheated by getting the Veritas jig to hone them with. :) Of course those India made things may not get much use since that jack plane twisted my arm and talked me into a LN smoothing plane and a block plane. I keep trying to jump on some of the older planes in the forums but I'm not quite quick enough.

[Steve Clardy]

Just posting to keep up

I'll get back to this thread later ;)

[Danny Thompson]

My thought is that a high quality plane would buy me some time to learn how a plane should look, feel, and work before it needs serious work. Once it does need serious fettling, then I will be in a better position to refurb.

I am afraid that some may misread me that I am saying don't ever get started with older planes. I don't mean that. I mean don't go with a rehab job first.

[Al Willits]

I have three and soon to be four older Stanley planes I've bought from Nic and I doubt I have $185 into them, including the fourth.
They are very sharp (scary sharp), free of rust and for this newbie they work very well, not so sure I'd have four Lee planes at $200-300+ a piece
as my woodworking budget just doesn't have that much funding in it.

While I think the newer high end planes are very nice, as long as I can get by with these I'll put my money into something else.

Nice used planes can be had with a little effort, our local woodworkers guild has them in their classifieds from time to time and they can be gotten on this forum, little plug for Nic Obie as he's been great to deal with, but others I'm sure have them too.

Its all about personal choice.

Al

[Danny Thompson]

Hitting again on the theme of a known trusted source, Al, sounds like you got a good one from the get-go. Congrats. Who is Nic and how can a noob find him? Were they flat when you got them and if so, how flat?

Hey, maybe this will turn into a reference listing of all the known trusted sources out there. Then noobs like me will know where to go.

[Andrew Williams]

I'm going to say this, as the truth, and not just to be different...

I agree 100% with the OP..

If you are serious about getting into planing and have never done it before, knowing what a good plane can do to a wood surface is an invaluable experience.

Once you get to that point, then you can start trying to make an oldie work as well as a new quality plane like LV or LN.

FWIW, only one of my old Stanleys is in the same ball park as my LV's and LN, and that one has a Hock blade and chipbreaker! They are all flat, have good frog seats and sharp blades, but there's only so much they can do on today's twisted gnarly wood.

YMMV

[Kevin French]

Danny when flatten'n the sole of your planes, provided you try it again, use belt sander belts glue to your base. They do a better job and last a lot longer then emery cloth or sand paper.

[Al Willits]

Danny, Nic Obie is a member of this forum, maybe PM him.

I still know little about reconditioning a plane and would shy away from doing so, but what members here have told me is to get a reconditioned plane, so I know what a "good" one should look and feel like when using.

Nic mentioned he had a block plane and quoted what I thought was a very fair price, took a chance and sent him a check.

I'll be buying my forth plane as soon as I write him a check.
I don't have enough skill yet to tell ya these are perfect planes, but they work well and they are in great shape and sharp as all get out.

I'm normally a little gun shy about buying sight unseen, but I've never had a bad experience on this forum.

I also like the ability to be able to afford several planes, there are so many different ones that buying a dozen high end planes would cost a fortune and as a newbie I can't justify the expense.
Good quality older planes (read less costly) allow me to get into planes and see what I like, I can always upgrade if I find a particular plane I like/want.

Hope this rambling helps.

Al

[Steve Clardy]

Quite a thread here. ;)

Sorry to hear of your troubles Danny.
I got into planes about 3 years ago.
All it was then was facination, after seeing some of Terry Hatfield's Bedrocks he restored. I hadn't used a hand plane since high school shop.
I told myself, hey, I can do that.:eek:
So three years later, and a hundred or so stanleys laying around, I learned to restore them.

I use a 6x89 edge sander to flatten the soles if needed.;)

I can do a plane in a couple of hours.
Thats stripping, painting, polishing, the whole shebang.
I've done 2-3 dozen now I guess.
I've sold most, but have kept out all the type 13's for my users.
I have a ways to go before getting all of those done.
I keep either selling them or giving them to special friends.
Can't seem to get that set completed :rolleyes::D

Anyhoo. I enjoy rehabbing planes when I get a little extra time.

[Jim Koepke]

My thought is that a high quality plane would buy me some time to learn how a plane should look, feel, and work before it needs serious work. Once it does need serious fettling, then I will be in a better position to refurb.

I am afraid that some may misread me that I am saying don't ever get started with older planes. I don't mean that. I mean don't go with a rehab job first.

Many years ago, when there were shops with aprentices, I would bet that is how the aprentice started. One works their way up the mountain before they get to slide down the slippery slope.

I also think you have learned a valuble lesson. When I go to the yard sales and flea markets, I want to have a few tools with me, straight edge, magnifier and a tape measure so I can evaluate a plane or chisel before any money is offered.

Jim

[Tristan Raymond]

Danny when flatten'n the sole of your planes, provided you try it again, use belt sander belts glue to your base. They do a better job and last a lot longer then emery cloth or sand paper.

Good tip!

I picked up a #4 and #7 about a year ago on eBay. They worked pretty well so I didn't put too much effort into them - new Hock blades and they were very usable. After seeing this thread I thought I'd have another go at flattening their soles. It had occurred to me to use belt sander belts, but I had forgotten the thought when I started again. Lots of work, little gain. The belt sander belt is going much quicker.

In the interim I've purchased a LN Low Angle Jack plane. I'm on the fence on the bigger issue here. If you just want to get to working with wood I see no reason not to buy a good working plane - and a LN or Veritas if you have the money. If you want to be at one with your tools and have the time, you will learn much about planes and probably feel a great sense of accomplishment if you tune an older plane.

[Bill Houghton]

I agree that you can buy bad planes, but I think you may have gone in with premises that conflict with the price you paid. It seems like you paid a user-plane price, and then wanted (consciously or not) to have a new-looking tool, and have realized how much work you did to get it there. I will confess to a strong prejudice in this area: tools are for use. To make an analogy, it's the difference between a pickup truck that looks like it just came off the farm and a dent-free one with shiny paint and chrome wheels. Both of them will haul a load of straw or manure, though only one will look comfortable doing so. I have no problem with pretty shiny tools - I just bought a Lee Valley medium shoulder plane, and am keeping it in the plastic anti-rust bag so it stays pretty as long as possible - but, when it comes to making shavings, I don't particularly worry about how the tool looks, only how it works.

Some comments:

1. I clean off dead spiders and rust with an SOS pad and hot water - not sure of total cost (this isn't my shopping specialty), but I doubt it exceeds 50 cents - though one plane pretty well uses up one SOS pad. Then I wipe off the plane with paper towels (one cent?), spray it with WD40 (another cent? maybe two), wipe it down again, and apply furniture wax everywhere. I'm not going to count the cost of the can of wax, because you need a can of wax for any number of reasons anyway, and one can will last you five years. The tools don't wind up shiny, but they wind up working.

2. I've never flattened a plane sole. I don't even know how out of flat my current planes are, up to and including the No. 8. They seem to work. I have gotten rid of planes that were seriously out of flat, but only two - and I managed to turn one into a birthday present for a family member who wanted the concept of tools, but, I knew, would never actually use them (I still regret the spokeshave I gave him that birthday, but have replaced it, twice over, since).

3. Myself, I'd never buy a plane on deBay as a first plane. You should be able to touch it and look it over. Too many bad possibilities with eBay buying that are subtle enough that you need experience before buying a picture and a description.

4. Paint does not appreciably improve the performance of a plane. While a nice paint job will improve its aerodynamics, the effect doesn't kick in until you reach Mach 0.5, which takes some years of practice.

5. In my experience, absent real problems - and, indeed, you did have real problems with that yoke - 75% of getting a plane tuned up is getting the iron sharp, and 20% is waxing the sole and the operating surfaces.

Sorry if this sounded like a slam, but I think one of the wrong paths down which people, especially newcomers, are turning these days with hand tools is the path of thinking you can't make good shavings until the tool is pimped out. You can. I'm not sure how this path came about, exactly. Part of the origin was people who'd reached the point that they wanted to plane stuff so smooth that a fly that landed on the surface would slide right off unless it had lost all airspeed, and so developed standards of super-tuning. If you're planning to race your car at Indy, you need to know that stuff (can you tell I grew up in a car family?), but you don't start out racing, you start out driving on regular streets, and you need a car that's tuned well enough to get to the store and back. You can do SO much with a tool that's clean, sharp, and sound, but not tuned to the nth.

If really good-looking tools are important to you, and that's a perfectly legitimate attitude, then save your money until you can buy from one of the new tool makers. Just be aware that it's an element in your decision, and you'll be able to stay away from attempts to save money by buying something that requires a lot of work before it meets your image of an acceptable tool.

[Kevin French]

Bill has a lot of good thoughts in his post.

I would like to add:

IF, someone has to ask 'what brand of tool do I need?' that tells me two things.

1. They don't know anything about that tool.

2. They didn't bother to find out about the tool and want YOU to tell them about it.

Now if a 16 year old kid asks you, 'What car should I get?' Are you going to tell him to get a BMW, MB, or a Hummer?

If newbie to astronomy asks what telescope to get are you going to tell him to get a 4m scope like the one one Kitt Peak instead of telling him to get a pair of binoculars?

This person may not continue with WW'n. When he tells SWMBO he needs a $300 #5 LN Hand Plane, AND THEN NEVER GETS IT TO WORK, do you think he'll ever get any other tool?

Start cheap, buy lots of lumber, learn the skills, get better tools.

MAN makes the tools, tools DON'T make the man.

Expensive tools don't make up for the lack of experience. You gotta pay your dues, and it's a disservice to a newbie to point him to LN, LV just because they are the best. JMHO.

[Danny Thompson]

Hmm . . maybe the sole doesn't need to be flat. This conflicts with so many other posts I've read, but I'm in no position to argue. I may be forced to give that a try.

[Danny Thompson]

Good tip!

. . . If you just want to get to working with wood I see no reason not to buy a good working plane - and a LN or Veritas if you have the money. If you want to be at one with your tools and have the time, you will learn much about planes and probably feel a great sense of accomplishment if you tune an older plane.

I think that statement best summarizes what I'm taking from this thread so far. "Good working plane" might be one from a seasoned, reputable restorer, or one you select and restore with the assistance of an experienced woodworker.

[Marcus Ward]

Hmm . . maybe the sole doesn't need to be flat. This conflicts with so many other posts I've read, but I'm in no position to argue. I may be forced to give that a try.

So you didn't actually use it before you started messing with it? :(

Repeated lapping by someone who isn't familiar with the process can produce a hollow under the casting that runs parallel to the sides. It'd be ironic if the plane was fine before you started. Put it all back together and give it a test run. Make sure the blade is sharpened properly. Set the frog so the iron is very close to the front of the mouth, for a very fine shaving, but not so close that it'll close up when you extend the blade. Start with the iron up inside the plane and slowly, 1/4 turn at a time, adjust it down until it starts shaving. Then go by 1/8th turns. If you can peel off a nice fine shaving, run with it.


I think that statement best summarizes what I'm taking from this thread so far. "Good working plane" might be one from a seasoned, reputable restorer, or one you select and restore with the assistance of an experienced woodworker.Or you can just teach yourself using online guides. However, you have to be an autodidact. I'm very good at it, better than most. Some people aren't and require assistance. Probably most people would benefit from assistance, but before I started with the planes the nicest plane I'd ever used was a lee valley b/u jack at a woodworking show for about 2 minutes. I knew what I was aiming for. :)

[Zahid Naqvi]

Danny, one of the things you learn as you start swimming the handtools waters is the sources. I wasn't paying attention earlier to notice that you are from Memphis. One good source for old tools in Memphis is the big flea market at the state fair grounds once a month. They have their own website (http://http://www.memphisfleamarket.com/index2.html) containing the calendar etc. There are a few tool vendors that show up on a regular basis. I have found most of the stuff to be slightly expensive, but you get to see and hold the tool in your hand before you buy. I'd happily pay 10-15% above eBay prices for that.

[Danny Thompson]

Marcus,

I did try it out early on. Chatter would be an understatement. I found it had two settings:

1) grip-and-hold
2) slip-n-slide

"However, you have to be an autodidact. I'm very good at it, better than most. Some people aren't and require assistance. "

Wow! I can't believe you just called me stupid.

Auto didactict?

[Danny Thompson]

Thanks, Zahid.

I heard the flea market had burned down and closed. Guess not.

[Zahid Naqvi]

the word autowhatchmaycallit raised my curiosity so I looked it up, here's the official meaning from dictionary.com

"a person who has learned a subject without the benefit of a teacher or formal education; a self-taught person."

I might consider it a badge of honor of sorts :cool:, heck if Sam Maloof claims to be an autodidact I have no shame to be one.

[Marcus Ward]

Wow! I can't believe you just called me stupid.

No, I merely pointed out that most people have a different learning style. I never called you stupid and am sorry you interpreted it that way. Everyone learns differently, and most people need some assistance or gentle guidance when undertaking something new. Me, I just plow ahead and make a lot of mistakes and figure it out.

[Danny Thompson]

Just kidding with you. I wasn't offended.

[Larry Laffer]

Danny, I believe there is real value in trying to restore a plane, even if you fail, as you always learn something when you try something new. For a few of us, buying old tools is a financial necessity. Others do it because they're just chea, uh, frugal. Some make a decent profit from restoration and resale. And some do it just because for them, it's enjoyable. I can't afford the tools I dream about, but I've found that I really enjoy taking an old tool that looks like a piece of junk, and bringing it back to life. While I'm working on it, I like to give some thought to it's past life and past owners, if I know them. Or speculate if I don't. I regret I can't explain it well. It's not religious, but it almost approaches it. I suspect a Japanese woodworker would know what I'm talking about immediately. Try shopping at auctions, flea markets, Craigslist, the papers, etc, and find an inexpensive plane that is reasonably rust-free and has a fairly flat sole. Take a plastic drafting square with you to test the flatness. Or buy from a reputable restorer of old tools. Good Luck!

[Jake Darvall]

Danny, I believe there is real value in trying to restore a plane, even if you fail, as you always learn something when you try something new.

Agree entirely. Thats what its all about.

Amongst other things working with old tools gives you confidence in just basic sharpening. Because your free to experiment more. Naturally you don't want to experiement with a flash plane. Don't learn much at all as a consequence I think.

At work there's a 3rd year apprentice. He purchased a good quality modern plane ($300 or whatever) in his first year. Loved it straight out of the box.......But once it bluntened, because its so precious to him he fears even attempting to re-sharpen it because he knows he may make a mess of it. Had no practise . I've attempted to teach him a method, but he's too stubborn to listen. Some silly competition thing going on between us.

So it just sits on the shelf unused. Instead hes using my old planes all the time when I'm not looking :rolleyes: so I have to do all the sharpening. Getting a bit jack of it too. :D. says a lot I think.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hey Jake, the way to fix the young whippersnapper is to take one of the planes he borrows regularly and file or otherwise put a minor nick inot one section of the edge. You have the skill to fix it, but he'll get a real surprise the first time he tries to smoothe a surface.

Remember my friend, old age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm every time.

[Bart Leetch]

Hey Jake, the way to fix the young whippersnapper is to take one of the planes he borrows regularly and file or otherwise put a minor nick in to one section of the edge. You have the skill to fix it, but he'll get a real surprise the first time he tries to smoothe a surface.

Remember my friend, old age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm every time.

Heck I'd just put some old dull blades in all your planes if you have a few dull blades to spare.

When you want to use one of them trade the blade out for a nice sharp one.

When he complains tell him that a 3rd year apprentice should know how to sharpen his own tools if he's really an apprentice & uses HIS tools.

If he only knew there are those of us out here that read the forums , books & magazines to learn how to sharpen our tools & are even somewhat successful.

[Jake Darvall]

Hey Jake, the way to fix the young whippersnapper is to take one of the planes he borrows regularly and file or otherwise put a minor nick inot one section of the edge. You have the skill to fix it, but he'll get a real surprise the first time he tries to smoothe a surface.

Remember my friend, old age and treachery beat youth and enthusiasm every time.

:D I like it. I'll give it a go Dave. See what he does.

I just wish he'd try a bit harder. They tend to give up pretty quick I've noticed and reach for a belt sander or obital. Which is ok I suppose with some timber. Just means the planing skills are lost. Generally the finishes tend not to be as good. Dust everwhere. Uneven surfaces. uno, fudging when you don't need to fudge. Oversanding.

They don't learn how to read grain, which I think is most important. Which is one of those lessons that lends to all woodwork processes I reakon. Makes you eyeball the grain constantly to work out which way to push any blade.....and cause they rarely use them, when they do try, even when they sneak one of my planes, they make a mess of it, going against, or too coarse a shaving or whatever. No strength in their arms. No practise. So they think its all a waste of time, put it back on the shelf and fight over the belt sander again, and go through hundreds of belts :D ( I shouldn't rubbish it too much I suppose. the boss is into power plenty too.)

[Ron Petley]

The guy who introduced me to wood working showed me how to tune up a hand plane, as well as many other things. If it is your thing it is great fun, and not all that expensive. I think planes and woodworking is for fun and the money spent can be little or big bucks, as well as the time spent.
Well 20 odd years fast forward, from being taught how to tune a plane, we have the net and forums like this. Despite this I still basically tune a plane much the same way, forums like this have great tips to take it to another level and add to the whole wood working expierence and I love reading these forums, they unite the geeks of the world.
I think it is a matter of teething problems and will quickly tell you if this is for you. If not buy quality and call it a day. If it is for you read these sorts of forums and, yes, find a person to help you out to speed you along and avoid expensive pitfalls.
I would also heed the advice to avoid e bay and buy ones you can examine.
By the way thanks for starting a great thread.
Cheers Ron.

[harry strasil]

Tradition means handing on all that is of value to next generation.

[Danny Thompson]

IT'S FLAT!!!!!!

Over the weekend I ventured back to the AutoZone for another 3-pack of 120 grit automotive sandpaper (the purple sheets; not wet/dry, just dry; $4.99 + tax). (I actually picked up a third 3-pack of 120 and another of 60, just in case, but I didn't need them). An hour of work later, it was flat--side-to-side and front-to-back!

The technique I used was recommended by the sharpening instructor the ATL (Roswell?) Woodcraft. I blue-taped the sandpaper sheet to the granite surface plate with the long side of the plate toward me and the plane with its side toward me. I grabbed the knob with my left and tote with my right and pushed away from my body--effectively sliding the plane sideways across the sandpaper leaving sanding marks parallel to the mouth. At the end of each stroke I pidked up the plane and set it back down close to me. Five strokes right-handed, rotate 180 degrees, five strokes left-handed, then blow away the metal dust. Every 30 or so, I would check the bottom.

I also cleaned up/squared up the sides using my oscillating belt sander.

Now it's on to the sharpening (hopefully next weekend). I'll try the original blade and go from there.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, everyone.

[Marcus Ward]

That is excellent, Danny. Glad to hear you're making progress. Let us know how it turns out. Do you have a jig for sharpening that blade? I'd say do it freehand but if you're not used to doing it that way, a jig might come in handy. Good luck and congratulations.

[Danny Thompson]

When I bought the granite surface plate, I also picked up a Veritas Mk.II. It is still in the box. I've sharpened a handfull of chisels freehand but will probably use the jig for this due to the thinness of the bevel (i.e., concerned it will be difficult to keep level).

[Marcus Ward]

A tip - make sure the microbevel knob is in the proper position when you start. Also I wouldn't bevel the back, just put a small microbevel on the normal bevel edge and go to town. Let us know how you like it. I use a Mk. II, it's nice.

[Roger Bell]

IT'S FLAT!!!!!!



Hey, hey. You haven't reconsidered your position on the question, have you?

[Walt Quadrato]

Danny,

I know I'm chimimg in on this late, but I just have to.

I went through the lot of posts and didn't see what type of #4 you bought...there are plenty out there that will never be good users no matter how much you fettle them, with a little more experience you'll be able to figure out which ones to stay away from...

sole flatness, when I buy a plane I always carry a Starrett straight edge and always pass by any with major problems, and it's not often I find a sole on a Stanley/Sargent/Union that's too far out of whack.

rust...well, don't buy one that's too much of a rust bucket...there's plenty out there so you can always be picky

same with japanning...unless it's extremely rare don't bother...that's just cosmetic stuff anyway

as far as blade and breaker...nothing wrong with old Stanley /sargent/union blades...short, well an inch of blade should last you at least five years...

missing parts...again, don't buy 'em...unless it has a part you need for another one!

there's plenty of good used older planes out there...don't be discouraged..


walt Q (who knows a thing or two about old planes :>)

[Larry Laffer]

Danny, Nic Obie is a member of this forum, maybe PM him.

Another vote for getting a plane from Nic. I got my first decent plane from him, a #4. Nice guy and does great work.:)

[Danny Thompson]

Thanks for the advice, Walt. Mine is a Stanley Bailey #4 Type 11 (1910-1918?).

For the record, here is a link to an earlier post with some pix documenting my yoke problem:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=67952

[jonathan snyder]

walt Q (who knows a thing or two about old planes :>)


Walt Definitely knows a thing or two about old planes and chisels, and just about every other tool you could ever want er need! If you want a good plane or other tool, with a money back guarantee see Walt. (http://www.brasscityrecords.com/toolworks/new%20tools.html)

Nice to see you posting here on the creek Walt!

Jonathan

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Some guy named Sven has a web site where he tells you how to make a very good straight edge from cheap BORG grade bar stock - - - and he is correct. You can.


Old school tradesmen and toolmakers had to do things without all the fancy schmancy niceties that are so easily taken for granted such as straight flat reference surfaces. They made their own when one was available.

It's all a question of how much work you are willing to put into it and what you do - or don't know. The trades were often kept secret and those secrets guarded by guilds that would inflict serious pain and suffering for breaking the rules.

Now however, with a little googling and posting in places like this you can get in a few hours more information than most apprentices to the trades would get in a year.


30 some odd years ago I got my first planes. They were old and ill cared for. I didn't know whether the grind (bevel) should face up or down I knew nothing about planes but, I figured it out. I still have 'em. To this very day they are my best planes.

[Billy Chambless]

D
In the meantime, get a LV plane, or get a plane from Clint, Sandy, WaltQ, or one of the others who's around these boards. Let them know it's your first experience with a 'tuned' plane and they will take very good care of you.


That approach worked out well for me, being not only a newbie but. The Stanley #5 I got from Walt arrived ready to go AND he helped me get Dad's old Craftsman smoother back in the game.

[Jon Crowley]

Some guy named Sven has a web site where he tells you how to make a very good straight edge from cheap BORG grade bar stock - - - and he is correct. You can.

Would you happen to have a link to this?

[John Powers]

The original premise way back when that its either Ebay or Lee Valley is not correct. I often see good stuff at garage sales. If I see an older house in my neighborhood with a sign I always stop. WW II #4, pristine condition, Stanley trammels, Atkins saw and something I can't remember for about $25.00. Lots between the two extremes.

[Sam Yerardi]

You have to remember, Noobs spend a lot of time trying to determine whether it is them or the entry-level equipment. Eric Clapton could make incredible music on my nephew's cheap Stratocaster clone, but I need something that can at least get in tune.

Danny,

Just wanted to throw my .02 in. To use your analogy, I understand as I am a guitarist. And every guitarist knows the meaning of the phrase 'paying your dues'. There's no way around it. Yeah, it would be nice to have Clapton teach you first hand but for the most part you will learn more from the attempts, failures, and successes that you experience on your own. And a lot of what Clapton would teach you would only be appreciate or best understood AFTER you have reached the self-experienced route. So, I have to disagree (respectfully) about the noobie dilema. The reason is just like learning the guitar, you have entered a field where more often than not, you DON'T have expert advise handy. So you must struggle somewhat - but it is in the struggling that you learn what's most important. Those lessons are worth every bit of the $185 you said you spent. Those lessons are worth TWICE that. Starting with a new Lee Valley or LN is great but at some point, you will need to sharpen it or tune it. As a noobie, there's every chance that through your efforts, the tool could be rendered less efficient than it was when you bought it. And then you've paid a lot of money for a good plane, but getting in tune, etc., leaves you in the same predicament you were in when you started.

[Danny Thompson]

I hear you, Sam. Noob guitarists don't need B.B.King's Lucille. It would be a waste, and maybe a crying shame. Still, there is a reason guitar instructors encourage their new students to buy a Seagull rather than a Wal-mart Fall-apart. You could argue a new student would do well to find a used Martin Dreadnaught, but would they really be able to tell if the neck were straight enough, or how to adjust it? If they learned how, they would have a sweet instrument, but if they didn't, they just might give up.

At some point, the Seagull will need it's neck tweaked, but probably not for a while, not before the student knows his way up and down the frets, knows how a guitar is supposed to feel, knows by feel and sound what he or she is capable of.

I'm just saying.

[Eddie Darby]

If I recall correctly, didn't Jimi Hendrix start out playing a broom?:confused:

But hey "Are you experienced?":eek:

[Joe D'Attilio]

Those lessons are worth every bit of the $185 you said you spent. Those lessons are worth TWICE that. Starting with a new Lee Valley or LN is great but at some point, you will need to sharpen it or tune it.

On the other side of the spectrum:
ANd as a noob myself, I'd rather ruin the blade/sole and learn on a $26 stanley than mess up a brand new LV or LN. 90% of the things you purchased will be used again if you plan on buying older planes/chisels. ANd as Sam stated, no matter how many new tools you buy there will stil lcoem a time that they will need to be sharpened to continue to perform as well as they do out of the box

As I'm learning the Neander way, it is not a HURRY UP and get done method of woodworking. For me and I beleive many others here, it's a hobby - I guess If my time was more valuable and I had little to waste in the shop I would def buy new as well.
I feel bad that you now have a bad taste in your mouth through all of this; I have been fortunate and have mentor of sort who has been guiding me through my start.

I would def suggest investing time in visiting others as I have, for not only valuable advice but to actually see and try different techniques of what works for them. If that is not an option then I suggest a class at somewhere such as Woodcraft or the like, or even join a woodworking group in your area.

I find that it doesn't matter if they have been doing it 60 years or 6 months; they more likely have doen alot of research as well and more than likely know more about it than myself.

Obv you have done alot of research, don't let one bad experience ruin that. ...There is lightat the end of the tunnel

Trust me, I've been buying the bare minimums and have also p/u a granite slab form Woodcraft just because I too do not have any absolute flat surfaces. You'r enot alone with your investment but they are ntoa waste of time or money. Sandpaper, belgian water stones, granite, mineral oil, mineral spirits, grinder, strop and compound, etc; I spent my share as well just to get started and if nothing else I want to be able keep my stuff sharp.

[Sam Yerardi]

Danny,

I agree with what you're saying. When I teach guitar I tell parents or students to try to get the best instrument that they can but not to sell the farm doing it. I guess I think of it like this - I want to drive so I get a decent car. Not a Corvette, not a Cadillac, not a Mercedes. Just a Ford. It gets me to where I want to go. It would be nice to drive in more comfort but a Ford is what I can afFORD. (sorry about that :)).

Eddie
Yes, Jimi did start with a broom. And he also played the guitar left-handed. The problem was he was right-handed. He didn't know any different. That brings up a good point - he learned on his own to be one of the all-time greatest rock guitarists that ever lived even by doing it 'wrong'. Same way with woodworking. A million ways to do something and not one way really better than another.

Joe,

Good point on taking your time. I read something the other day that stuck with me (I'm always reading). The article was about sharpening and doing something a different way but getting good results. The author of an article was responding to a reader criticizing him over his method. He said something to effect that the Newport cabinetmakers didn't have rotary 6000 grit waterstones in a recirculating water bath to sharpen precision hardened steel and somehow still managed to turn out some of the most beautiful furniture ever made.

[James Carmichael]

I'm not chiming in one way or the other (well, OK, maybe with a slight bias towards vintage tools), but much of the expense you have incurred can be amortized over multiple tools, if you choose to go further.

I started out flattening/sharpening on an old marble coffee table, now use a $10 corian plate.

Sandpaper: need it to grind/hone anyway, so it can't really be charged to "plane restoration".

Re-japaning: I don't know why that's necessary for a user.

Rust-removal: Personally, I like very rusty old tools, as they're usually the best bargains if you're willing to invest some sweat equity. I've never done electrolysis. I have used tri-sodium phosphate, once. Nowadays I just clean with mineral spirits & steel wool. So long as the surface rust is gone, I'm fine with it. I figure they're users, not show pieces.

Here's another option: buy the old tool equivalent of a "certified used car" from someone like Walt Quadrato (google brass city records). Walt knows his tools. If there's anything wrong with it, he'll tell you.

I do think the most cost-effective approach, though, is taking a good, vintage plane and adding in a Hock Iron & chipbreaker, where needed (Lee Valley sells replacement irons that are less expensive). A definite exception, and one which I will probably take, are the bevel-up bench planes from LN & Veritas. They're a bargain compared to the originals!

In the old days, an apprentice started out making his own tools, so I view a lot of this as part of the learning curve.

[Jim Koepke]

Re-japaning: I don't know why that's necessary for a user.

Rust-removal: Personally, I like very rusty old tools, as they're usually the best bargains if you're willing to invest some sweat equity. I've never done electrolysis. I have used tri-sodium phosphate, once. Nowadays I just clean with mineral spirits & steel wool. So long as the surface rust is gone, I'm fine with it. I figure they're users, not show pieces.

Here's another option: buy the old tool equivalent of a "certified used car" from someone like Walt Quadrato (google brass city records). Walt knows his tools. If there's anything wrong with it, he'll tell you.

I do think the most cost-effective approach, though, is taking a good, vintage plane and adding in a Hock Iron & chipbreaker, where needed (Lee Valley sells replacement irons that are less expensive). A definite exception, and one which I will probably take, are the bevel-up bench planes from LN & Veritas. They're a bargain compared to the originals!

In the old days, an apprentice started out making his own tools, so I view a lot of this as part of the learning curve.

As far as re-japanning goes, it is not necessary. Saying that, two recent acquisitions were very rusty and cleaning them took off almost all the japanning. They were given a couple of coats of black enamel. They do not look original, but when my pinky finger is resting on the base, it feels better than when it is resting on a century's accumulation of dirt, grim and rust.

Great, but it ain't gonna get me to strip and repaint any of my other planes for now.

The down side is the two planes that this was done on are shiny, but you can clearly see every pit and flaw on the metal surfaces.

Have to agree that a hundred years of patina makes a more appealing surface to view.

Then again, I do not have any collector planes, they are all there to be used or when there are just too many of a particular size, sold.

I do like the aftermarket blades, but I do not think they are substantially better than an original blade.
They are better, but if one can not sharpen a blade, they will not be better for long.

They will have to be sharpened eventually.

Sharpening is a basic skill people working wood need to learn.

A new blade may solve one problem immediately. It can also help to show one what is possible. It may make another problem stick out like a sore thumb. It won't fix a misaligned frog or a warped base.

jim

[Pedro Reyes]

I would not title an email DO NOT BUY NEW PLANES, and just like that I would not title one with the opposite message.

To each his own. And perhaps a very bad experience makes somone have such an extreme opinion.

My first plane was a Buck Bros from the Mega-Lo-Mart (BORG). I had no idea what it was, I wanted to remove paint for crying out loud, but I read and researched, and finally got it to "work". Does it work like a Lie Nielsen, no, does it work? yes!. And I was a noob, still am in a way, but so much more of a clueless noob then.

Was it tiring, no I made it fun
Was it frustrating, no I made it a learning experience
Was it expensive? ... LOL

Then I got some vintage Stanley and what a difference, they work so much better, then and only then when I knew (or so thought) what I was doing and understood why a plane is better and how a plane works, I got my first LN.

As has been said many times, it's not the equipment it's the player, or like Bob said here "it's not the tools"

A Buck Bros can work with reasonable work, blade and mouth are not worth a crap, but it works, and it helped me understand.

Sorry if I ruffle some feathers, nothing personal, but all this LN and LV vs vintage Stanley's reminds me of a coffee taste test in New York. Starbucks, vs Dunkin Donuts vs Mc Donalds. McDonalds won the blind test, the best part was all those snobby people being ashamed for picking McDonalds.... If I plane the same board of cherry/maple/walnut with my LN and my vintage Stanley, I dare anyone to tell the difference, and at the end isn't that result all that matters?

peace

/p

Disclaimer: I hate starbucks and I love Lie Nielsen planes as well as Lee Valley ones, I own some of both. No associaton of any kind between Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, McDonlads, Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley or Stanley is intended by the author.

[Danny Thompson]

Joe, Sam, and James.

Ammortize over time. Valuable lessons learned. Get with someone who knows. Buy from a reliable dealer. All good points.

I still have to argue with the idea of taking the time to learn. If you "can afford" to take the time to learn to sharpen, can afford to make the screw-ups and refine your skills, them I'm with you.

I would call this my hobby, too, but I must have come to it a little different way than you. Sure I get pleasure from the work and the tools, but I justify the time in the shop by having a goal to produce something. I, at least in part, justify my tool purchases by the pieces I am going to produce in the very near future. So the cost/benefit equation changes a bit. If you need to produce a nightstand, or coffee table, or crosscut sled right away, then you need a usable tool right away.

So what is the luxury in this case? What is indulgent? What is the wise choice?

In my case, I had a limited budget. I blew the budget, blew the project timeline (because the tool wasn't ready in time and also because I spent so much time fettling instead of working), and blew the project (because I ended up using the wrong tool for the job). I would have been better served with an LV right out of the box.

I have mellowed a little in the months since I first posted this. I've gotten some distance from the crisis. Finally got the sole flat. Bought a Hock iron and cap. Still, the whole exercise cost me a project. I learned some lessons in the process, true. But I still believe my point is valid.

If you need a worker, and you need it now, and you haven't done it before, you or your tool is going to have to spend time with someone more experienced OR you should invest in a tool that you can be reasonably certain will be good right out of the box.

[Sam Yerardi]

Danny

With respect to your question I think one difference between us neanders and the machining world (when it comes to tools) is that the journey is as much enjoyment as the destination. If I were trying to make a living from handwork, then I agree, I would get the best tools I could afford and spend as little time as possible up front tuning, etc. I look forward to working with my planes. I've never even remotely felt that way about my table saw (even though it is a 1938 Craftsman) or any of my other power tools. Every project for me is an opportunity to pick up an old tool and use it.

One comment about learning. I may know how to tune and sharpen a plane, but each day I learn something new and coming to sites like this clears up a lot of things for me. Someone may have a different or better approach to something that works better for me. Like you, when I first started, I had a million questions and the only source I had was my dad and later, books & magazines, trial and error. When you're first starting out, you realize there is a lot of stuff to learn, and you struggle with unanswered questions but I don't think anyone of us on this site would be willing to say they've learned all they need to learn.

If starting with a new plane is what works for you, then I say go for it. In the final analysis, both of us have a plane in our hands and doing something we love and can share with each other. I'm thrilled that there are others like me that simply love handtools and use them. (Whew - what a speech for 7:00 am - sorry about that :))

[harry strasil]

Well said Sam. With me its the pleasure of working with antique or antique style tools and the enjoyement of actually doing with my two hands, what others need a machine to do. I am not the best woodworker in the world, nor am I the worst. Its just a hobby with me, and I hardly ever produce a piece for monetary gain, more for personal satisfaction, my own enjoyment and its stress leaving for me. I don't use metal planes other than specialty ones, so I spend no time fettling. Clean them up, sharpen the blade, repair anything that needs it and use it. Also I don't spend the money for aftermarket blades, preferring to use the originals as I like them and if the tool was good enough for woodworkers in the golden age of handtools its good enough for me. And I am a history buff taboot. Most of the time its hard to come up with any improvement on a tool already perfected by generations past. I do use some tailed tools now to help with the heavy grunt work because of my health issues. But they are more like apprentices in the old days. You assign them a job and let them do it.

Well enough rambling from an old man using old tools the old way.

Oh yeah all my tailed tools would be foot powered if I could find and afford them. My dream shop is in the pages of an old W. F. & G. Barnes Catalogue. LOL

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My first planes were old. I've used 'em since I got 'em.

[harry strasil]

OOPS, I guess I do fettle my Woodie planes, a couple of light passes over my jointer if need be, but I don't fettle enough to remove small hollow spots.

First thing when I am going to rehab one is to check the sole. This might work for the iron planes too as an initial checking. A piece of scrap plate glass from the glass shop, Free, they throw it away anyway. Sprinkle a liberal coating of Talcum Powder all over the top surface. Rub it in well with your fingers. Dump the excess. Then blow all the fine loose stuff off. Carefully set the planes sole on the surface and using just steady light finger pressure in the middle of each end, move it a half inch on the glass. Pick it up carefully and look for white spots which are high spots, you can quickly tell if the sole is warped concave or convex or is twisted. Of course with metal planes you would need to clean the sole with steel wool to start with.

[Marcus Ward]

The first thing I do when I am going to work on a plane is use it. Most of the time it works fine. This fettling craze is mostly worthless.

[harry strasil]

Not really Marcus, it turns a profit for the sandpaper, granite surface plate and diamond dust vendors and others. Also keeps production down, if people spent more time using and less time fussing (fettling) we would all be out of a job.

Same thing with chisels. I used to spend a lot of time initally sharpening chisels, maybe a half hour with some wet/dry paper, and a couple of oil stones. Resently, I did a set of 6 bench chisels not fancy high dollars ones for a newbie I am helping by loaning him, the necessary tools to get started in 45 minutes start to finish on the WS3000 my good wife gave me for Xmas.

[Sam Yerardi]

I'm right there with ya Harry :)

[Kevin French]

Pedro I agree with you, the title and the opposite title are/would be wrong. I could see a title "Don't buy a Borg Plane" though.:D

My problem with a thread like this one is you have, in most cases, two types of people asking the question.

1. A WW'r who uses mostly tailed tools.

2. A newbie to WW'n

The case of the guitar is a good enough example, but I'd like to take it a step further.

A lot of people are looking for 'SOMETHING' to do in their spare time. They ask the question and the 'experts' say go buy an LN and he does, then he finds out the this Neander crap is a little too much work and/or a little more work then he thought. He gives it up and has a $500 piece of steel SWMBO will hold over his head and beat him with the next he wants to try to learn to... play Guitar. (Mine was a 22" Hegner SS that I keep hearing about)

I do agree with the statement of buying the buy you can afford, but would reserve that one for the Cat. 1 people.

A newbie with an old Stanley and a stack of wood will learn more than a newbie who spent all his money on a LN.

[Marcus Ward]

So what you're saying is that we are fettling and basically wanking over tools to keep people in business? That's some pretty tortured logic.

[Danny Thompson]

Marcus has a good point. If it works right away, then you don't have to mess with it.

I tried my #4 out of the box and it chattered like 2 year old in church. So I launched into full-blown fettle. Later, my fellow creekers figured out that the problem was with the yoke--the ebay seller's dad had either replaced it with the wrong one or, more likely, had modified it to fit a thicker blade, so the cap and blade would not seat properly against the frog. Luckily a gracious Creeker sent me a replacement, but not after a LOT of wasted time.

Kevin, You've got a good point, too, but I would modify it as follows. "A newbie with an old Stanley and a stack of wood will learn more than a newbie who spends ALL his money on a LN."

I should point out that I never suggested otherwise. My point was that you can end up spending almost as much money getting your first Stanley in good condition as buying an LV outright. If you can't afford the LN, you might not be able to afford to get the Stanley in good working order either.

Regarding the $500 piece of steel, all evidence suggests that your $500 investment is as liquid as a savings bond. Cash it in on the 'bay and pick up a Mexican Strat any time you want. Flow it all through your Paypal account and SWMBO doesn't even have to know about it.

Marcus has made a similar strong argument about Stanley's with Stanley blades--that you can easily get your money back--but if you choose to replace the Stanley blade with a Hock, the model blows up. You then have more money in your Stanley than you can get back out of it.

Harry, if I only had a jointer, I could be a committed woodie Neander, too. I noticed Woodcraft has the Rikon on sale again. Hmmmm . . .

Really, guys. I want to get to the level that you are, where it is all about the pleasure of working with the old tools. Where I am good enough to take that tiny paper-thin shaving with any tool you give me. And, seriously, I am not trying to say, like some seem to, that if you don't have an LN you don't have bupkis. I am not trying to say that the old Stanleys are crap. I am just saying the vintage Stanley route isn't [I]a sure-fire route to an inexpensive, high quality tool it (that route) is sometimes cracked up to be. And if a noob needs something that is highly likely to be a good worker right away, there are more reliable options.

[Danny Thompson]

A newbie with an old Stanley and a stack of wood will learn more than a newbie who spent all his money on a LN.

A newbie with an old crap Stanley and a stack of wood will learn . . . to buy a Random Orbit Sander.

[Kevin French]

A newbie with an old crap Stanley and a stack of wood will learn . . . to buy a Random Orbit Sander.

Yes but IF he came here for the advice about what plane to start with, he'd most like come back to find out how to make the thing work also.

[harry strasil]

Play NICE, now boys. :)

[Joe Cunningham]

My point was that you can end up spending almost as much money getting your first Stanley in good condition as buying an LV outright. If you can't afford the LN, you might not be able to afford to get the Stanley in good working order either.

Yeah you could. I think I spent $16 on a rust-free Stanley #4 (WW2 era), $20 on sharpening supplies, and about $20 on wood. So, maybe $70.

I read up on what to look for BEFORE buying my plane. The only thing I hadn't done was sharpen it enough, but once that was out of the way, it is taking very thin shavings with no fettling at all. Never used a bench plane in my life before 2 weeks ago. Don't know a single person who has used one.

I used my dad's old bandsaw to resaw some pieces of practice 3/4" thick poplar (borg), then used the handplane to get them down to 1/4". He thought I was nuts till he saw the end product.

Maybe those first few days would have been more encouraging with a LN or LV plane, but once I got the blade sharp it worked like a charm. But here is the thing--I didn't have a project in mind, I had a learning experience in mind, namely how to use a bench plane. I read a lot before I started, and I had fun doing it which to me is the whole point. Eventually I'll make some larger furniture, but for now I am starting with small projects to learn some of the necessary skills.

I did the same thing when I cut my first dovetails. I bought one backsaw, one chisel, and a marking gauge. Cut some paper templates for the tail layout. Low initial investment, read a lot, then practiced, then put it to use on a small project. They didn't turn out perfect, but they hold my new chisel tool box together. Once I decided I liked this hand tool stuff, I bought some more chisels. Why spend $500 on a hobby if you aren't sure you will enjoy it?

To me, your experience seems like a distant outlier on the bell curve, but maybe I am the distant outlier.

[Danny Thompson]

True, Kevin. In fact, what you say is exactly what I did, and now I have a good working #4--thanks to the free-flowing help on this board. I guess I was just trying to inject some humor with the ROS comment. Sorry if it came across differently.

Joe. Good point. I think your experience is pretty common. I couldn't say which is more common, yours or mine. Definitely a big difference is that I had a project to complete and was launching into rehabbing and planing without a lot of time to practice and diagnose.

I guess that means I don't look at this as a pure hobby. Or the hobby for me is more about the production than the work. For whatever reason, that is the way it tends to go with me--pushing my limits with every project. This time I guess I pushed too hard and something broke. But I can see how the work itself is enjoyable enough to be the hobby all by itself, or that taking it slower can be rewarding, too.

In fact, I am now trying to follow a similar path as you related to dovetails. I've bought a dovetail saw and have cut some tests (using Gary Rogowski's dovetail warm-up exercise). I hope to get there soon and produce some good work using that method. To be honest, dovetails seemed like a bigger jump than getting a vintage Stanley in working order. Now I would say, it depends on the Stanley and depends on your experience.

[Jake Darvall]

There's not much to loose in fixing up an old plane, cause their cheap.

If it doesn't work, and one hasn't got the patience to sort it out, then IMO, theirs a good chance he'll give woodwork away anyway, or just settle for average results, because thats what woodworks about mostly.......problem solving.

There's so many ways of doing it. Even professionals will argue about how to do it. But I'd say there'd be one thing common to them.......they stick it out, experimenting themselves through the failures until they've worked out what works well for them. (instead of practising their typing skills arguing about it over the internet :D)

[Danny Thompson]

Funny, Jake.

Speaking of experimenting until you've worked out what works, I'm right there with you . . . I've set up my own Starbucks challenge.

Prices have gone up a little since I first posted. Nevertheless, I finally cashed in my penny jar and ordered a new Veritas Low Angle Jack earlier this week. It arrived today. I'll run it through its paces alongside the flattened, Hock bladed and capped, proper yoke restored Stanley Bailey #4 Type 11.

It won't be a blind taste test, but, who knows, I may fully recant. Any of youse guyse are welcome to join in, particularly anyone local who may not have had their hands on a Veritas or a #4 before. Just let me know.

[Jake Darvall]

ok. Be interesting to see what you think of that new plane. I'm guessing theirs not going to be much of a difference.

I know a few people who are quite comfortable with stanleys with the origional blade as well.

I've put thick woodie blades in most of my old ones. Very solid action, with no blade flex problems at all I've found. But there's a stanley #5 I've had for about 15 years, that I didn't do it to. Still got its origional blade. Alongside all the other fettling I also flattern the frog completely, where the blade rests(removed the levers to do it, reattaching afterwoods) and its turned out to be a nice plane to use to.... so its all a bit of a much of a muchness really I think.....

The difference between it and the planes with the extra thick blades is really something I pick up at the start of the pass. The thinner blade flexes a touch; so it eases into the cut nicer. Its nice when it flexes just a touch for this effect, as long as its not so large it chatters I feel.

Anyway, whats starbucks ?

[Clint Jones]

Funny, Jake.

I finally cashed in my penny jar and ordered a new Veritas Low Angle Jack earlier this week. It arrived today. I'll run it through its paces alongside the flattened, Hock bladed and capped, proper yoke restored Stanley Bailey #4 Type 11.



You are comparing a low angle bevel up plane agains a standard pitch bevel down plane. Of coarse the low angle BU plane is going to out perform the Stanley. I would offer to put my Stanley 62 LA jack with original blade up against the Veritas I am sure it will get the same results as the new plane.

[Jake Darvall]

You are comparing a low angle bevel up plane agains a standard pitch bevel down plane. Of coarse the low angle BU plane is going to out perform the Stanley. I would offer to put my Stanley 62 LA jack with original blade up against the Veritas I am sure it will get the same results as the new plane.

How much would it out perform the stanley Clint ? Is it a significant improvement do you think ? Or is it something so small that its hardly worth thinking about ?

[Clint Jones]

How much would it out perform the stanley Clint ? Is it a significant improvement do you think ? Or is it something so small that its hardly worth thinking about ?

For things like end grain or tough woods the LABU would excell. On softer woods I dont think there would be much difference at all.

[josh bjork]

Marcus, writers need something to write about. Some people enjoy reading. Some people enjoy doing.

[Joe Cunningham]

Yes if I had a project I needed to get done, I'd likely have taken a different approach. As it is I have a lot of things I want to make (I have most of a house to furnish), but at this point I feel like I need to work on the basics before trying to make a piece of functional furniture.

But then I am a bachelor, so ... :D I can get away with eating on a card table with a folding metal chair.

[Jake Darvall]

I'm not saying there's not an improvement. Just putting a value on it, is the question for me. Cause there's so much incredible hype about how great modern planes are, it must be blown out of proportion a little bit, at least sometimes.

My tuned #5 stanley works cleanly off end grain. Skewing the plane into it, and its quite workable. I don't see any need for replacing it. I've found a technique for it I feel. If I didn't skew it, I risk chattering it. Maybe you don't need to skew the body with a modern plane.

At work I use my planes on Kwila. An indonisian hardwood. Often I have to clean up end grain at the end of a door. And as long as the blades sharp and finely set its no problem. (so, why buy a replacement ?)

Blue gum also we use a lot of. Dulls the blades fairly quickly I've found. So, I can see how a harder blade as you may find in a modern plane would be great there.

Another plane I use heavily is a stanley 10. The bosses, but I love it...cleaning up glue squeezeout in rebates (after applying a strip or whatever), and particularily handy crossgrain to finish off checkouts in jam heads. fudging when the machines cut wrong etc. Thin blade again. Old stanley body. Its more than fine.

Its all interesting to talk about I agree, but, its hard for me to see what so wrong with existing tools that one has to tell newbies NOT (in capitals :D) to learn how to fettle an old plane.

Because, just quietly, if ones frustrated with the time spent to problem solve these, how the hell are they going to get any kind of woodworking project done without pulling your hair out.

[Danny Thompson]

Clint,

I think I am prepared to avoid the angle issue you mentioned above. As I understand it, with a bevel-up plane, it is all in the secondary bevel, right? If I hone a 38 degree secondary bevel, the cutting angles should be roughly comparable. Right?

Joe,

I don't mean to suggest Noobs should NOT :) learn how to fettle an old plane. I agree that the statement, "Newbies should NOT start with old planes" is too strong. I admit it, that statement is clearly an overreaction the situation I found myself in.

Through the course of this thread I have stated that a good working plane can be achieved "with the assistance of an experienced woodworker" (ref. posts #27, 37, & 49). And Marcus, in another thread, has raised the ante on this whole subject by offering to help newbies if necessary, even by mail! (If you can't fix it, he will!) Pretty impressive.

That said, I think it is a mistake to suggest that a safe alternative for the noob is buying off of eBay and launching into a rehab on his or her own. That can be hit or miss proposition, and can quickly add up to nearly as much as a modern plane. So, if a noob can't afford to "miss"--i.e., doesn't have time for a "miss"--he or she should strongly consider going with a sure thing, buying from a reputable vintage dealer or buying a new modern plane.

Then the question is a virtues/costs proposition--less expensive rehabbed vintage v. more expensive new updated.

Does that sound like a fair statement?

[Marcus Ward]

That said, I think it is a mistake to suggest that a safe alternative for the noob is buying off of eBay and launching into a rehab on his or her own.

Bah!! That's how I learned. Do or do not, there is no try (and you can't purchase skill). If the price of failure is high, the incentive to learn is great.

[Kevin French]

That said, I think it is a mistake to suggest that a safe alternative for the noob is buying off of eBay and launching into a rehab on his or her own. That can be hit or miss proposition, and can quickly add up to nearly as much as a modern plane. So, if a noob can't afford to "miss"--i.e., doesn't have time for a "miss"--he or she should strongly consider going with a sure thing, buying from a reputable vintage dealer or buying a new modern plane.

Then the question is a virtues/costs proposition--less expensive rehabbed vintage v. more expensive new updated.

Does that sound like a fair statement?

Danny IF a newbie is here asking about WHAT plane to buy, when they get one don't you think they'll come back find out how to rehab it and use it?

We're talking MAYBE $50 -IF they really get taken on the -bay as opposed to $300-500 if the go V or LN.

I don't see the justification.

[Marcus Ward]

Kevin - he still thinks it has to have a hock blade and chipbreaker to work properly, and I'm guessing he figures 100$ worth of sandpaper to flatten the bottom.

[Sam Yerardi]

Then the question is a virtues/costs proposition--less expensive rehabbed vintage v. more expensive new updated.

Does that sound like a fair statement?

Danny,

I wouldn't agree completely because in BOTH cases, you WILL have to learn how to tune and sharpen the tool. The new tool isn't maintenance free. And in some cases, it may not even be ready for your particular application right out of the box. If you discover you're cutting a deep ridge on one side the first time you use it - what will you do then? 'More expensive new updated' isn't always better, though sometimes it is. It's like buying a set of the most expensive gold clubs and you haven't learned to play. Golfers refer to it as buying your game. You still have to learn no matter how good your tools are. There is also a matter of appreciation. It's hard to appreciate a Cadillac if you've never driven a Chevy. They both get you to where you want to go. One is just a lot more expensive than the other. Both still require maintenance.

Also, I take the stand that if you are truly taking a hand-tools approach, then you will inherently spend the time to learn what you need to learn to service your tools up front. The new edge will only last so long. Screwing up an old iron is a much less expensive approach than screwing up a Hock blade, etc.

[Billy Chambless]

We're talking MAYBE $50 -IF they really get taken on the -bay as opposed to $300-500 if the go V or LN.



Or they can spend that same $50 with Clint, Walt, Sandy, or one of the other good dealers and NOT get taken. I've bought planes from dealers for less than similar planes were going for on Ebay, and generally they arrive ready to go.

I've had good luck with ebay, too, but I recognize that it's a crapshoot, and never bid all that high.

[Richard Niemiec]

Life is a journey. So is this hobby. If you make a living at this and need a tool for a job, you buy it, but I don't think we are talking about those folks. If you enjoy the journey, want to understand your tools, how they work and (perhaps more importantly) how to make them work better, buy old tools with good bones and work on them to then work with them. It makes you a more informed craftsman, IMHO.

Believe me, it does not take much time, and frankly old tools are more than likely to be in pretty good shape from a fettling point of view because somebody "used" them for serious work in the past, which is why I prefer bench planes of WWII or earlier vintage, i.e., before power tools came to dominate; later types may not have been used by someone who really knew what they were doing with the tool.

I would also suggest that for a user, re-jappanning or repainting is just a tad extreme unless you are into the tool thing to possess nice looking tools, and I've never had the need to soak in citric acid, nor to use electric current to de-rust; steel wool and scotchbrite with an occasional "soft" wire wheel is all I ever used, and believe me I've tuned up over 75 planes over the last 15 years. If you get an anal retentive rush about making the tools look pretty, well than knock yourself out, but it adds nothing to the function. I'm more interested in a flat sole and square sides, and have never refinished handles but have made replacements. That's not to say I don't appreciate beauty, when I first opened my LN 66 it was so pretty I gasped just a little, so to each his own.

Everyone buys one or two tools (likely on Ebay) early in the journey that they would not have otherwise bought knowing what they know now, but folks who buy such tools over and over and then complain about it likely are charter members of the "More Money Than Sense" club. You live and learn, and later, when you get that LN or LV low angle jack, you appreciate it more. That's my experience in a nutshell. YMMV. RN

[Joe Cunningham]

So, if a noob can't afford to "miss"--i.e., doesn't have time for a "miss"--he or she should strongly consider going with a sure thing, buying from a reputable vintage dealer or buying a new modern plane.

Does that sound like a fair statement?

I'd say so. I can afford to miss a lot, and have enjoyed working on the planes almost as much as working on the wood.

The feeling I got from getting my plane blade sharp enough to take thin shavings was very similar to finishing my first handcut dovetailed box. I agree with Richard--the journey for me is a lot of the fun.

[Sam Yerardi]

Good points, Richard.

I mean this all in jest but I've been doing some rough mental calculations and I think for the amount of time this post has went on I could have restored, fettled, tuned, sharpened, (or whatever) 5 or more planes :). Others I'm sure are faster than me.

And something else I haven't heard yet - there is an enormous amount of pride I get from bringing an old tool back to life. I'd love to have an LN and one day hope to but is there anyone out there that feels that way about their LN's? :)

[Richard Niemiec]

Sam: When I buy "retail," and by that I mean LN or LV, I generally get planes that can't usually be found used in a Stanley version at a reasonable price for a complete plane without "issues," e.g., some specialty planes are always missing fences, blades, handles, nickers, etc. I have a LN 66, the LN low angle rabbet block, a set of the LN 98 and 99, and in the sense of having pride of restoration, no, but my gosh they are a joy to use. I also have the LN large and LV medium sholder planes for the same reason. Likewise the LV bevel up low angle smoother and jack; just can't find old Stanleys as you have to compete with the collectors, so I pay a bit, and not really all that much in context, of a premium for these types of planes. But my regular bench planes are mostly all sweetheart stanleys, #3 through #7, with a #5 1/4 and a MF #4 1/2 to spice it up; and all are from garage sales, tailgating and fleas and were all either tweaked or restored in some shape, manner or form, and I doubt if I paid more than $30 for any of them; most were under $20, and weren't pretty when I got them, but they all sing now. Now, don't get me started on my chisels........

[Danny Thompson]

Let's face it, knowing what I know now, my rehab could have gone much more quickly and much more cheaply:

$ 36 Plane + shipping
$ 0 Yoke replacement (courtesy of fellow Creeker)
$ 4 Granite tile from Lowes (if you need a flat surface)
$ 4 3-pack of purple 120 grit automotive sanpaper (for flattening the sole)
$ 2 soft wire brush (for rust removal)
$ 46 Total (not counting costs with honing the original blade)

$ 65 Hock blade and chipbreaker (if you decide you want them)
$111

I don't think you HAVE TO go with a Hock iron and breaker, but they sure are recommended by a lot of posters on this site.

Even with the Hocks, should it cost $180 to rehab an old plane? Absolutely not. But, if you get a problem plane, you don't have experience, start following all the various recommendations on this site, you could end up spending that much (e.g., $185). That's my whole point.

A new LV is roughly $220 shipped. That's as much as 4 times more, if you're lucky, in which case the vintage plane seems pretty attractive. Or as little as 16%, which makes the LV look like the better choice. A noob should carefully consider which way to go.

[Kevin French]

Danny I'll give the figures right up to the Hock blade for a beginner.

That's 'The Next Step', if you stick with it.

[Richard Niemiec]

$ 65 Hock blade and chipbreaker (if you decide you want them)
$111

I don't think you HAVE TO go with a Hock iron and breaker, but they sure are recommended by a lot of posters on this site.

Well, all I can say is that we all know why we like Ron's irons, and I have one (but not the chipbreaker) myself for my #4, but my #3, and #5 thru #7 work really well with the "original" irons.

It's not that I don't understand or have empathy for what you are saying here, I do, I truly do. And for some folks you are absolutely right if they can afford the $209 for the LV LABU smoother (hell, I own one!), or more for the LN version, but when you boil it down the only thing all the "buy the oldies" guys here are saying is that for a newbie you don't have to go upscale right away, and you can get perfectly servicible use out of a properly bought and properly adjusted plane. And I guess they are saying that because that's the way they did it (me included), and we all value the experience in learning how and why planes work well. And if for some reason a newbie decides that hand tools are not his or her cup of tea, then you're not out large $$.

On the other hand, maybe we should be encouraging newbies who are on the fence about this neander life to buy upscale, and then when they resell the planes we might get a bit of a discount off retail.....:):)

[Jim Koepke]

Let's face it, knowing what I know now, my rehab could have gone much more quickly and much more cheaply:

$ 36 Plane + shipping
$ 0 Yoke replacement (courtesy of fellow Creeker)
$ 4 Granite tile from Lowes (if you need a flat surface)
$ 4 3-pack of purple 120 grit automotive sanpaper (for flattening the sole)
$ 2 soft wire brush (for rust removal)
$ 46 Total (not counting costs with honing the original blade)

For the average smoother, 3 - 5 , I would not pay $36 unless it was real nice. There are too many good ones for less. Besides, I do not need a real nice one.

It seems one problem you had was being confined by a time line that did not have any room for the unexpected problems that always pop up. My experience has taught me it is best not to try and rush things. I also have found that one better add at least a half hour for sharpening to every two hours of cutting. This depends on the tools and the sharpening equipment one has at hand.

Yesterday I was not paying attention to the clock while six plane blades were being sharpened on stones. I think it was about three hours with the different interactions with my grandson. But the point is, it was enjoyable listening to the radio and talking to my GS. Besides at all of six years old, he is learning about sharp.

IMHO, one can enjoy things much better if they approach them as learing experiences for the fun of learning. There is not much fun in approaching what should be one's joy with the feeling of "must get done now" working against you.

Hopefully, if you buy another plane at a yard sale, antique shop or even off the auction site that shall not be named, you now are more aware of what you should look for and questions to ask.

Besides, there are many friends here that can look at it for you and give an opinion if you ask.

jim

[Danny Thompson]

Jim, That sounds like a great time with your son. I wish you more of the same in the years ahead. I surely hope my girls gain an interest.

Hey, I have come to agree $36 is more than you should pay for a #4 that isn't in tip-top working condition. Funny thing is the market price for a #4 is clearly higher than that.

If you search the 'bay for "Stanley Bailey #4" and look at the last 10 completed sales, you will see 2 with cracked totes and knobs that went for less than $36 (delivered), but all 8 of the rest went for more:

Mar 10: $39.00
Mar 10: $19.49 (cracked tote and knob, significant rust)
Mar 9: $41.69 (corrugated)
Mar 9: $55.15 (corrugated)
Mar 9: $55.90
Mar 8: $74.28 (Sweetheart)
Mar 8: $32.47 (cracked tote and loose knob)
Mar 8: $55.87
Mar 7: $45.90
Mar 7: $52.00 (Type 11, same as mine, clean but with a repaired tote)

If you check a reliable tool dealer--Patrick Leach--he has no normal #4 on his most recent price list, but for comparison:

#A4 - $110 (aluminum handled #4)
#3 - $90
#5 - $85

Then look at the Classifieds on this site, you can find only 4 #4s sold in the last 6 months:

2-05-2008 $75 with Stanley iron,
$85 with Hock iron and a cracked rear tote

11-25-2007 $55 plus shipping (Sweetheart, Corrugated, Clint Jones)

11-17-2007 $40 (Type 11, same as mine)

Not a single good user under $36 in the bunch. Of all of these, which ones fit your purchasing criteria? Probably Clint's for $58-65 shipped, and that's it, right?

I assume you are getting your bargains through other sources--garage sales, tool swaps, estate sales, flea markets--but I have yet to find a single vintage Stanley at one of these in all my looking.

If I check Craigslist in my area (Memphis and even Nashville, 3 1/2 hrs away) no planes are listed.

Don't get me wrong. If I can find a bargain, I am going to snatch it up and take my sweet time rehabbing it, as many of you have suggested. If you guys know a cheaper place to find a reliable plane, please share.

[Danny Thompson]

Well, all I can say is that we all know why we like Ron's irons, and I have one (but not the chipbreaker) myself for my #4, but my #3, and #5 thru #7 work really well with the "original" irons.

It's not that I don't understand or have empathy for what you are saying here, I do, I truly do. And for some folks you are absolutely right if they can afford the $209 for the LV LABU smoother (hell, I own one!), or more for the LN version, but when you boil it down the only thing all the "buy the oldies" guys here are saying is that for a newbie you don't have to go upscale right away, and you can get perfectly servicible use out of a properly bought and properly adjusted plane. And I guess they are saying that because that's the way they did it (me included), and we all value the experience in learning how and why planes work well. And if for some reason a newbie decides that hand tools are not his or her cup of tea, then you're not out large $$.

On the other hand, maybe we should be encouraging newbies who are on the fence about this neander life to buy upscale, and then when they resell the planes we might get a bit of a discount off retail.....:):)

Well stated. I can agree to that. Not everyone needs to make the jump to the more expensive planes. There is pleasure and accomplishment in the learning. And, if they are fortunate they can get there without large $$.

[John Erhardt]

Not a single good user under $36 in the bunch. Of all of these, which ones fit your purchasing criteria? Probably Clint's for $58-65 shipped, and that's it, right?

I assume you are getting your bargains through other sources--garage sales, tool swaps, estate sales, flea markets--but I have yet to find a single vintage Stanley at one of these in all my looking.

If I check Craigslist in my area (Memphis and even Nashville, 3 1/2 hrs away) no planes are listed.

Don't get me wrong. If I can find a bargain, I am going to snatch it up and take my sweet time rehabbing it, as many of you have suggested. If you guys know a cheaper place to find a reliable plane, please share.

Hi Danny:

You've basically hit upon both of my major gripes with buying vintage tools. For as much as I like using old tools (and saving money in the process, so that I can buy, you know, wood) there are two things that have been hammered home to me pretty repeatedly in my search for good used tools:

1.) Shopping for antique tools of any kind is NOT need-based. If you need a certain tool, it's not like you simply get up and go to a flea market and step up to the 3/8-in. mortise chisel table and rummage through users. If you need a 3/8-in. mortise chisel, finding one at a flea market is a happy accident.

2.) Antique tool aficionados tend to overstate the availability and price of used tools. I have NEVER seen a hand tool for sale at a price that is routinely quoted around here as a fair price. Never. Ever. Never. I'm pretty agnostic where $25 Stanley #4s in good working order are concerned.

I'm sure if I expanded my area of attack when I hit garage sales and flea markets, I'd get lucky. But once I factor in the cost of gas for me to venture out farther, not to mention the fact that I hate shopping and would rather be in my workshop because I have two jobs and would rather be building furniture on my time off, I don't feel so defective for buying a #5 that's $15 more than the phantom market rate.

Hierarchies get tiresome,

J

[Jim Koepke]

2-05-2008 $75 with Stanley iron,
$85 with Hock iron and a cracked rear tote

11-25-2007 $55 plus shipping (Sweetheart, Corrugated, Clint Jones)

11-17-2007 $40 (Type 11, same as mine)
Hey, I have come to agree $36 is more than you should pay for a #4 that isn't in tip-top working condition. Funny thing is the market price for a #4 is clearly higher than that.

I did not say $36 is too much for a #4 in tip top condition.

I would not buy one in tip top condition. I want a user or one that can be restored to a user.


If you search the 'bay for "Stanley Bailey #4" and look at the last 10 completed sales, you will see 2 with cracked totes and knobs that went for less than $36 (delivered), but all 8 of the rest went for more:

listed below includes what shipping would be to my zip, ymmv.

Mar 11 $29.95 (newer than I like)
Mar 11 $20.42 unsold (repaired handle late SW - WWII?)
Mar 11 $25 unsold shipping not listed (pre lateral or missing lateral? I would not bid on this one without seeing the frog. It went unsold before)
Mar 11 $18.90 unsold (This one looks to have the wrong front knob and has what may be a problem blade, but less than $20 w/shpg)
Mar 10 $19.49 (rusty and broken handle, this one also looks newer than I like.
Mar 10 $25.10 (another newer than I like)

If one is in a hurry, one will have to pay a premium.

I believe I have seen photos of one plane Clint Jones had for sell. It looked sweet and well worth the price. As much work as goes into sharpening a blade, I would likely not want to do it for less than $10 bucks if it just needed a little honing. If it needed some grinding, then the price would start at about $20. Everyone's time has value and that value is what Clint and others put into those rough diamonds where ever they may be found.

Of the planes listed above, I think there are only one or two I would consider. I have been lucky and give thanks for my luck.
I snagged a type 9 #5 for $10 at an estate sale. Just a little chip out of the casting. The handle was rough, only wore down a little sand paper.


If you check a reliable tool dealer--Patrick Leach--he has no normal #4 on his most recent price list, but for comparison:

#A4 - $110 (aluminum handled #4)
#3 - $90
#5 - $85

I have looked at his tool list, some items I find very tempting. Others I imagine there are folks who just do not want venture out to yard sales and flea markets. It takes up time to find quality tools.


Then look at the Classifieds on this site, you can find only 4 #4s sold in the last 6 months:


Not a single good user under $36 in the bunch. Of all of these, which ones fit your purchasing criteria? Probably Clint's for $58-65 shipped, and that's it, right?

Again, you are trying to compare tools in premium shape with the bargains that can be found.
I bought a Stanley #4 (early type 6) in an antique shop for $7.50. It looked like a piece of crap. Today it is taking fine shavings. I would sell it, but it has a few problems. So, I will keep the "broken" plane and sell the 604c Bedrock (type 3) when I get the urge. It may present problems for some, but as a user, someone may get a deal for $60. If I get lucky, maybe it will get bid up higher. It cost me $24 in an antique shop and also looked like a POS. Stripped it, painted it, bought the correct lever cap, found the correct blade and replaced the handles. At $60 I will break even. That takes shavings so thin now all one can say is WOW.

The angels must have been smiling on me because the 4-1/2 that was $30 in the same antique shop was only in need of its blade being sharpened. I still pinch myself on that one. Of the 4 #4 size planes I have bought, the most expensive was the Bedrock at $24.


I assume you are getting your bargains through other sources--garage sales, tool swaps, estate sales, flea markets--but I have yet to find a single vintage Stanley at one of these in all my looking.

If I check Craigslist in my area (Memphis and even Nashville, 3 1/2 hrs away) no planes are listed.

Don't get me wrong. If I can find a bargain, I am going to snatch it up and take my sweet time rehabbing it, as many of you have suggested. If you guys know a cheaper place to find a reliable plane, please share.

I hardly find anything on Craigs list.

All it takes is luck and perseverance. When I am in the acquiring mood, we look at the yard sale listings in the local paper. I then try to map out where the things are. I will usually not go to one of the places unless it says hand tools. Even then, they are often automotive. I also try to know the neighborhoods. I will hunt estate sales in older established areas before venturing into the new developments.

Then get there early, the serious buyers will be there with you.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

not to mention the fact that I hate shopping

OK, I happen to like shopping. And so does my wife.

jim

[Joe Cunningham]

Not a single good user under $36 in the bunch.

Strange my user (Stanley #4 WW2 era) I got on that auction site for $16.5, $25 shipped, just 2 weeks ago. Only 4 bids on it, I guess people didn't think much of it. Not a speck of rust on it, sole is flat, all the adjustments work. All I did was sharpen the blade and start using it.

I can't really ask for more in a user plane, esp at a price that is less than a crappy bench plane from a borg outlet.

Maybe I just got lucky.

[Danny Thompson]

Joe C.,

Nice catch for $25 shipped. Do you have a strategy you are willing to share? Do you bid at the last minute? Do you bid low on a bunch and hope one of the many works out? Or did you just see one that was being overlooked? Oh, and did you ask the seller any questions before you bought?

Thanks,

Danny

[Joe Cunningham]

I bid with ~5 seconds left, after putting a watch on it. I think I set it at ~$35 max bid, but the $16 was enough to get it.

I got lucky I think, because the day mine ended there were about 20 other #4 or #604s ending within about 2 hours (on a Friday night no less). The others were mostly sweetheart era baileys or the bedrocks, so this ww2 era one kinda got overlooked. I missed out on 3 of the nicer baileys as the bidding kept getting higher and higher.

The seller was very upfront about everything working, but he had refinished the tote. The listing had 6 very detailed (up close) photos.

Some of my other planes I think I overpaid a bit on that auction site, but I am very happy with them, and all for considerably less than brand new. I bid in the last few seconds in each case. I haven't cleaned up the #5 or 6 yet to try them out.

1) Stanley Bailey #4C, type 15 (sweet heart), $75, excellent condition
2) Stanley Bailey #6 type 16, $40, fair condition
3) Sargent jack plane 414 (a #5 essentially), $34, good condition

[Jim Koepke]

Joe C.,

Nice catch for $25 shipped. Do you have a strategy you are willing to share? Do you bid at the last minute? Do you bid low on a bunch and hope one of the many works out? Or did you just see one that was being overlooked? Oh, and did you ask the seller any questions before you bought?

Thanks,

Danny

If one bids on a bunch of different items at the same time, you just might win them all. I do not do this unless I am in the market for multiple whatevers.

If I have questions, they are asked. So often the same questions are asked that I have thought of doing a boiler plate file for questions.

It has been my experience that when more than one or two questions are asked, some may go unanswered.

I will often put in a low bid on an item that looks tempting. Often no one else bids and the item is mine. I will not up my bid.

Bidding at the last second (sniping) is effective sometimes. Often, one will find there are others out there doing the same thing. I have seen items go from $20 to over $100 in the last minute of bidding.

Then there are the ones with bad pictures or the end date is a day before the national pay day or something. Look at the "pre lateral" listed in my previous post that did not sell. That person has no idea how to list or photo an item. This is at least the second time it has gone unsold. I tried to get some information from him last time and the person is clueless. I was thinking of buying it for parts, but if it is a pre lateral, they are not parts I can use. I also want to make sure there is no damage. Then again, it is a bit more than I want to pay for just parts. Not being a collector, I am not excited about having a pre lateral taking up space.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Here is one #3. It has a ton of pictures yet shows nothing. Item 110230819954 looks to have the wrong handles by color. The lever cap looks wrong for the blade date. With all those pictures why doesn't one show how much blade is left.

It also has no bids and ends tonight.

If it is just mismatched parts, it could be a good user. It looks like type 5 wood, type 6 or later frog and type 12 lever cap.
If the person took pictures that showed detail the thing might sell. I am tempted to bid the minimum. I would like to see a close up of the lateral adjuster & the inside of the depth adjuster.

jim

[Matt Ranum]

In the last 2 weeks I bought(from the bay) a #4 type 9 for $31 shipped, real nice with about 90% japanning left and a #5 type 9 with about 85% japanning left and a chipped horn on the tote for $21 shipped. I just proxy bid generally. The #4 I set a bid at $26, and the #5 I put a proxy bid at $15 and I was the only bid at $10.

Didn't think that was too bad. The descriptions on both were real good but the pictures left a little to be desired.

[Billy Chambless]

I will often put in a low bid on an item that looks tempting. Often no one else bids and the item is mine. I will not up my bid.


That's worked well for me -- the key is not getting caught up in "auction fever" and trying to "win". I generally keep track of what people like Walt and Sandy are getting for users, and keep my bids somewhat below that level.
If I need something in a hurry, I just call Walt.

[Sam Yerardi]

Richard,

I agree. LN's & LV's are on my wish list. There are several Stanley planes that I can't find but are available from LN and such. I just can't afford them right now. But one day...

[Billy Chambless]

I mean this all in jest but I've been doing some rough mental calculations and I think for the amount of time this post has went on I could have restored, fettled, tuned, sharpened, (or whatever) 5 or more planes :). Others I'm sure are faster than me.



That made me think, so I went and counted.

Since this thread started, I have bought 6 vintage Stanley planes.

I might be doen buying planes for a while, though. ;)

[Grant Vanbokklen]

SNIP
. And if for some reason a newbie decides that hand tools are not his or her cup of tea, then you're not out large $$.

On the other hand, maybe we should be encouraging newbies who are on the fence about this neander life to buy upscale, and then when they resell the planes we might get a bit of a discount off retail.....:):)

I don't think that you lose much when you sell your used Lie-Nielsen stuff at that auction site if you keep it in good condition. I was watching recently and a bunch of LN stuff is for sell there now, used but excellent shape, and going for near the price that they can be had direct.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ah ha! Been ignoring this thread, but wondered where everyone was!

[Bob Easton]

Woo hoo! My old Stanley #51 spokeshave is bloody ... from cutting myself while adjusting it!

This thread started about the time I retired from 41 years of something completely not woodworking related. Wooden boatbuiliding was my retirement dream, and the reason for a growing tool collection. I live well, but not well enough to collect one of everything in the Lie Nielson catalog.

Most of the great folks over at the WoodenBoat forums suggested I buy old and refurbish. My reservations were basically a lack of confidence of whether I could be successful refurbishing. But then, I'm autodidatic :), so for much less than the price of any single new Lie Nielson, I bought (from Sandy Moss (http://www.sydnassloot.com/TOOLS.HTM)) two planes (#60, #78) and a spokeshave (#51).

Following Bob Smalser's advice (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3349&highlight=planes) (seen here and on the WoodenBoat forums), I bought a simple piece of 1/2 glass ($17), a few packs of sandpaper ($19), some phosphric acid ($7), and a new wire brush ($3).

I tackled the spokeshave first, because (1) it's a pretty simple tool, (2) it was cheap and at worst could be a sacrificial learning exercise, and (3) it's slightly rusty and moderately nicked blade was the worst of the three blades. If I could hone it, the others would be simple.

Rust removal was less than an hour soak and a couple of minutes wire brushing.

There was no grindstone purchase mentioned above, and I don't have a bench grinder. The nicks on this blade really could have justified regrinding, but I avoided that investment with 2 bucks worth of 60 grit and a couple hours time. I also learned that with my honing plate set on a high bench, about waist high (as Smalser suggested), I could easily keep the grinding angle correct without using that very pretty Veritas Mark II (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1) I've been eying. Got the nicks out, along with a healthy dose of aerobic exercise.

After the nicks were eliminated, moving to 120, 320, 400, and 600 grit honing (all sandpaper) was quick and easy. The last 10 minutes set a very fine micro bevel. I stropped with tripoli on a very small felt wheel in a dremel tool (no bench grinder, no larger wheels).

Result: it easily passes the "shave your forearm" test, produces 0.003 shavings on the first pass at a piece of pine, and cut my finger as I was setting it up.

I still consider myself a newbie and I am now very delighted that I started with old planes. For the price of this beauty (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=Boggs), or this one (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=60_5), I now have two planes, a spokeshave, and all the supplies needed to keep them scary sharp (http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM). Sandy will likely see more business from me ... and oh yeah, there's boats to build, plans for at least 47 of em sitting right here next to me.

[Danny Thompson]

Congrats, Bob.

It never occurred to me, and I've never seen it suggested that a spokeshave might be an easier place to start. Nice idea. No lapping the sole, fewer parts.

So, only $46 invested in the rehab. Do you mind sharing how much the original spokeshave cost you?

Follow-ups:
-- The bath was in phosphoric acid? Where did you get it?

-- What kind of sandpaper did you use?

-- Was the glass the kind from Lowes--simple picture-frame glass?

Can't wait to see one of your boats. Best of luck.

[Tom Daniels]

I have to agree with Terry. I have learned more from rebuilding the planes than I would have if I bought a new one. I've learned how to tune them maintain them, sharpen correctly and use them correctly. I have not spent anywhere near the 185 dollars. I used a wire wheel to clean the rust. Attached the sand paper to my jointer bed. And plati cote black engine enamel. I haven't spent more than 40 dollars. I have since rebuilt Stanley 80, bullnose plane, rabbet plane, three #4,three #5, and have now gotten into saws. It is fun to put these old tools in to practice and by doing the restoration/research my wood projects have improved dramatically.

[Terry Bigelow]

Almost 4 months and this thread STILL has legs!! Unbelievable! I had to re-read what I wrote and what the OP said just to be on the same page. Not much has changed though! I had a feeling this would be a long one though. Anytime the whole LN,LV vs. vintage iron comes up prepare to see a heated debate. Since my last visit to this thread I rehabbed a beat up Sweetheart 605 1/2. She ain't perfect but she does the job real nice! All she needed was a new tote($20),some elbow grease and some love.

By the way, Danny what's the latest on the refurb?

[Danny Thompson]

Beauty, Terry. Nice transformation. Where did you get your tote?

My #4 is good to go, with a flat sole, replacement yoke, and new Hock iron and chipbreaker. The Hocks were arguably unnecessary, but are sort of a souvenir from my visit to the Tools For Working Wood showroom in Brooklyn; that was an adventure!).

My LV Bevel Up LAJ with a spare blade has arrived, and I made a few shavings with it (sweet).

I've committed to a full-on side-by-side comparison, but haven't had a chance, yet (been getting the house ready to sell). With all my power tools packed away, I be able to get back to it soon. Wish me luck.

[Terry Bigelow]

Thanks, Danny. Tote is an fleabay find. Good to hear you've got the #4 up and runnin'. Seems like you sort of split this whole debate in two: fettle the oldie AND buy an LV! How come we still haven't seen the pics man??;)

[Bob Easton]

Congrats, Bob.

It never occurred to me, and I've never seen it suggested that a spokeshave might be an easier place to start. Nice idea. No lapping the sole, fewer parts.

So, only $46 invested in the rehab. Do you mind sharing how much the original spokeshave cost you?

Follow-ups:
-- The bath was in phosphoric acid? Where did you get it?

-- What kind of sandpaper did you use?

-- Was the glass the kind from Lowes--simple picture-frame glass?


A few answers for Danny
- The spokeshave itself was $20 from Sandy Moss.
- I found phosphoric acid at Home Depot in the paint department. It was labeled "Prep and Etch," available in both quart and gallon sizes.
- The sandpaper was simple stuff, aluminum oxide for the coarse grades and "wet-n-dry" for the finer grades. Straightforward sheet stock. I cut to convenient sizes and attached to the glass with rubber cement.
- The glass is 1/2 inch thick, ( reasoning that thicker is flatter ) gotten from a glass store. I asked about what widths they had, making it convenient to do only one cut. An 8" slab yielded a nice 8x12 piece. That was about 2 minutes work for the glass guy and 4 minutes in the automatic edge polisher.

Those supplies are nowhere near exhausted, and will sharpen a lot more tools. Just working on a #60 low angle block that isn't quite scary sharp yet, but getting close.

[Danny Thompson]

Terry,

I took a few shots of the sole when I finally got it flat, but never posted them. I guess I got distracted. My plan is to get back in the shop over the weekend and fiddle with both planes. I hope to have the pix up by Monday.

Thanks for asking.

Bob,

"Prep and etch." Interesting. So did that add a patina to the unpainted surfaces? What did it do to the japanning?

[Danny Thompson]

Here you go, Terry. The #4 in question. Certainly not perfect, but in decent shape. Clearly the iron needs some work.

[Danny Thompson]

Call it the "Eclectic Triumvurate with Crutches."

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=85237&d=1206761981

The planes:
Stanley Bailey #4 Type 11 in the middle
Veritas Bevel-up Low Angle Jack in the back
Lie-Nielsen Skew Block Plane with Nicker in the front

The rest:
Up top -- Veritas Mk.II Honing Guide and standard registration jig
Middle right -- Spare Veritas 25 degree A2 blade for the Bevel Up Jack (in blue plastic)
Left top -- Original Stanley blade and chipbreaker for the #4
Left middle -- Veritas Skew Registration Jig for the Mk.II Honing Guide
Left bottom -- Veritas Camber Roller Assembly for the Mk.II Honing Guide

Clearly this wasn't all necessary . . . but I'm not taking any chances this time.

[Johnny Kleso]

Danny,
I can see your point, there is a lot to learn on how to tune a plane and you just dont buy a plane you need all the sharpening supplies as well..

If you dont have the time to learn what everyone should know about owning and using a hand plane the fastest way is to have a good starting point like a LN or LV

[Marcus Ward]

Danny,
I can see your point, there is a lot to learn on how to tune a plane and you just dont buy a plane you need all the sharpening supplies as well..

If you dont have the time to learn what everyone should know about owning and using a hand plane the fastest way is to have a good starting point like a LN or LV

And as soon as it's dull, you're in the same boat as the guy who bought the 20$ plane from the flea market. Except you're out a lot more money, and of course yours is shinier. :\

[Danny Thompson]

To Marcus's point, the accessories in the photo above--the Honing Guide ($58), Camber Roller ($22), and Skew Registration Jig ($28)--are needed (or arguably not needed) either way, whether you buy a Stanley, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, or make your own woodie. They are optional costs above and beyond the rehab supply expenses included in my original rant ($185). I bought them to make sure I get the angles right and consistent.